THIS is PATHETIC

[My Erotic Trail]

Place high on the top list, win a monthly contest, of get an E or early H rating, and anybody's poem will get attacked and bomb.

At least mine does, and I'm supposedly part of the in-crowd here.

Just fer de record.

Mine too, I can have a mediocre poem and it will stay with almost high ratings but not a threat, let it hit the top list and it is as though several hit it at once <grin ...go figure.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I know.

I get annoyed sometimes, too. Can you tell?

But Senna is just Senna. And the others who come off sounding like they know the one right way to do it--that says more about them and their issues than anyone they seem to belittle. I wish more people could keep that in perspective.

I'm just venting, too.

I have come to enjoy some critics remarks to watch the other critics disagree with the first critic and so on and then you have an issue of who to listen to <grin... the most polite would be my first choice (wrong or right) or come to figure the critics are unsure of what is correct.

 

[flyguy69]

.... I agonize much more over a poem than I do a story. I have no idea why, though.
....

Because they are considerably harder to write!

There used to be a poet here named tarablackwood (anyone remember her?). After a poem of mine was heaped with accolades she emailed to say "You realize what a piece of shit that is, don't you?" I had to scratch my head awhile, but after reading her reasons I came to recognize the weakness in my poetry. Had she not done that I would still be writing such crap.

I am eternally grateful.

 

[Liar]

I know.

I get annoyed sometimes, too. Can you tell?

But Senna is just Senna. And the others who come off sounding like they know the one right way to do it--that says more about them and their issues than anyone they seem to belittle. I wish more people could keep that in perspective.

I live by two rules when it comes to communicating with people. The first is: assess the decorum, the expected tone and attitude (unless I want to be confrontational, then assess, and do the opposite). If not, you're screwed, and the reciever will get it wrong. It would be nive if harsh and impolite comments was never mistaken for malice. But the truth is they will be. So I as a communicator must first connect and gain trust, before delivering unwanted info, like critique.

The second is, and I say the same thing to all that encounter it: Don't make someone else's lack of decorum-sense your problem. Shrug off, move on. That's all we can do, and that's all we should do.

 

[Angeline]

I have come to enjoy some critics remarks to watch the other critics disagree with the first critic and so on and then you have an issue of who to listen to <grin... the most polite would be my first choice (wrong or right) or come to figure the critics are unsure of what is correct.

I don't know that I would describe it as "unsure." People have different opinions. I like it when people who give me feedback disagree. I see that as an opportunity for me to consider how different readers are viewing something I wrote and use the advice that I think works best.

Senna is probably the least polite person I've ever seen here. He has ripped my poems to shreds plenty of times, and yet I have no hesitation in saying his "feedback" has been more helpful to me than anyone else's. Sure I'd prefer polite, but most of all I want helpful, useful.

 

[flyguy69]

...to figure the critics are unsure of what is correct.

Of course. Is there any artform about which every critic agrees? But that doesn't mean that all poetry is good. If it were, poetry could hardly be called an an art, now, could it?

 

[cloudy]

Because they are considerably harder to write!

There used to be a poet here named tarablackwood (anyone remember her?). After a poem of mine was heaped with accolades she emailed to say "You realize what a piece of shit that is, don't you?" I had to scratch my head awhile, but after reading her reasons I came to recognize the weakness in my poetry. Had she not done that I would still be writing such crap.

I am eternally grateful.

Well....I've been writing stories since I learned that sentences could be strung together, and could communicate the movies I see in my mind. I have some small talent at it, I think.

Poetry, on the other hand, is a very new venture for me.

(didn't know Tara, but yes, I remember her )

 

[flyguy69]

Well....I've been writing stories since I learned that sentences could be strung together, and could communicate the movies I see in my mind. I have some small talent at it, I think.

Poetry, on the other hand, is a very new venture for me.

(didn't know Tara, but yes, I remember her )

Me too. That may be why I find them so dificult!

 

[Angeline]

I live by two rules when it comes to communicating with people. The first is: assess the decorum, the expected tone and attitude (unless I want to be confrontational, then assess, and do the opposite). If not, you're screwed, and the reciever will get it wrong. It would be nive if harsh and impolite comments was never mistaken for malice. But the truth is they will be. So I as a communicator must first and commentor much first connect and gain trust, before delivering unwanted info, like critique.

The second is, and I say the same thing to all that encounter it: Don't make someone else's lack of decorum-sense your problem. Shrug off, move on. That's all we can do, and that's all we should do.

I know.

I don't recommend anyone be impolite. If anything, I've taken heat here in the past for arguing that people should try to be more cognizant of others' feelings.

However, having edited for a living has taught me that I can be very demanding in what I think a writer needs to revise and mean nothing personal by it. I'm just trying to do a good job. That perspective probably has made me thicker-skinned than most.

 

[sophia jane]

Cloudy,

What I don't understand is why equally mean (and worse) comments on stories doesn't seem to cause authors to not dare submit them.

"What kind of worthless pliee of SHIT is this!?"

That's my latest email on a story I wrote. Every time I browse around among stories on this site, I see brutal, mean-spirited and hurtful comments. Now, IO haven't been keeping up with the comings and gopings in the Story Feedback forum... is the same debate raging here as there?

Point is, there is rudeness everywhere. Why is it more terrible when it happens among poets?

This is a good point, Liar.
But...I have seen many many threads over on the Ah from people who are discouraged by bad story feedback and want to give up. And they are ALWAYS told "Don't give up! It happens to all of us" and other forms of encouragment.
I don't think that happens here.
I also think there's a difference in writing poetry and writing a story. My stories are fiction. My poetry is me. A little chunk of me, cut wide open. So if someone says they hate a story, well fine. But if they hate my poem, it's a little more personal.

The other difference: when Senna Jawa went after me, it really hurt me. I cried. And I waited for someone here, on my thread, to give some kind of pat on the back or reassurance or some kind of comment to him that he was an ass. But that didn't happen. Instead, people either a) agreed with him or b) said they liked his comment. It was Imp who pmed me and consoled me. If not for her, I honestly would have stopped posting poetry on lit completely because I was left feeling like I had absolutely nothing to offer. That kind of thing would not happen on the AH.
Just my 2 cents (again).

 

[Liar]

Well....I've been writing stories since I learned that sentences could be strung together, and could communicate the movies I see in my mind. I have some small talent at it, I think.

Poetry, on the other hand, is a very new venture for me.

(didn't know Tara, but yes, I remember her )

She was tres cool. is, I guess, but not much here anymore.


Writing a story is for me like passing a kidney stone. Slow and painful. Writing a poem is just me fucking around with language, the equivalent of a sneeze perhaps. So I guess I can't really relate to the anguish of putting one up for read. But when i submit a story, I invest so much effort, it makes me slightlly psychotic waiting for reader reactions.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Of course. Is there any artform about which every critic agrees? But that doesn't mean that all poetry is good. If it were, poetry could hardly be called an an art, now, could it?

This would put us back to the statement to only take to heart those critiques by those with "Credentials" ....for all else are simply 'critics in training' or honest opinions of how the poem made them feel.

Ange listens to Senna because of his credentials? I would cast his comment in delete and not think twice about it. For there are way to many polite members here willing to help with a volley of friendly communication.

and I put Tara in the same list as Senna, 1201, sack and........those I do not listen to because they lack social skills and do not communicate well with others that are not at their level of elitism.

 

[Liar]

I just had a sudden urge to start a thread called "THIS is PHONETIC". But I realised I only had the title, and not the content for it.

Maybe some day.


Ok, minor threadjack over.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I just had a sudden urge to start a thread called "THIS is PHONETIC". But I realised I only had the title, and not the content for it.

Maybe some day.


Ok, minor threadjack over.

damn, I like that too,...

Path-eticate

 

[Angeline]

This would put us back to the statement to only take to heart those critiques by those with "Credentials" ....for all else are simply 'critics in training' or honest opinions of how the poem made them feel.

Ange listens to Senna because of his credentials? I would cast his comment in delete and not think twice about it. For there are way to many polite members here willing to help with a volley of friendly communication.

and I put Tara in the same list as Senna, 1201, sack and........those I do not listen to because they lack social skills and do not communicate well with others that are not at their level of elitism.

Art, I listen to Senna because he gives me good advice--he tells me things that help me write better poems. He doesn't have to be "nice" to do that. I don't worry about credentials--as you know. I read what someone says and I think about it and if it makes sense to me, I make changes. Credentials or attitude are the least important criteria to me. I don't have good perspective about my own writing. Someone else's honest opinion makes me look at something I wrote in a different light than I can see it myself, and often that person sees weaknesses that I missed.

 

[annaswirls]

So much is misconstrued. I know I once said that I read many many poems about dying grandmothers when I taught (science) to 8th graders, and it was taken that I was saying the POEM was written like an 8th grader.

Did someone really call You an 8th grader? Just curious.

No one is defending the pathetic comment that I could see, just that one should not be surprised (there are socially inept people everywhere) or to let it stand in the way of writing.

I got some tough critiques when I first came here, and it made me a better poet. But the rudeness surrounding a critique does not help anyone. That is agreed.

I said I didn't care if MY poems were bombed. I DO, however, care about the attitude expressed so casually here in the poetry forum by some, not all. There are some very helpful people here. There are some elitiest assholes, too. To pretend no one here is like that is laughable.

I can't believe that some are defending the "pathetic" comment! How damned rude does it have to be before someone cries foul???? Jeez. Fortunately, I have a thick skin, and don't mind calling someone on their rude comments, as recently when I was called an "eighth grader." Not everyone is like me, however, nor should they be.

I care because maybe, just maybe, there's a poet out there that has been hounded from this forum, and from lit, by that attitude.

People here should care, too, but apparently, if someone is a "serious poet" they should just take any and all abuse handed to them, yes?

eta: Angeline, most of what I've said isn't directed at you, or really at anyone in particular. I don't post here much, and I've explained why, but I do notice that you, and others, offer critiques in a way that provides guidance, and doesn't tear a fledgling poet down. It is appreciated. Not everyone is like you and those others, unfortunately, and obviously delight in being assholes, as if it somehow props their own fragile egos up. Who knows.

 

[annaswirls]

You've made me go ouch on occasion.

But then I like a little evil in a woman.

oh baby I am sorry! Next time tell me I hurt you so at least I can get a little thrill, you know, prop up my ego and all that stuff.

 

[ishtat]

!!

If strong criticism, justified or not bothers anyone I suggest you read Swinburnes correspondene with Emerson. Swinburne's ability to abuse and Emersons capacity to ignore it are both wonderful.

Senna Jawa is a rude so in so but he is also a competant critic. Better that than a troweller of flattery.

It is interesting to compare say SJ with the Rain Man or Angeline for examples.SJ is a good critic but so are TRM and Angeline but they are also teachers - big difference.

 

[annaswirls]

Cloudy,

What I don't understand is why equally mean (and worse) comments on stories doesn't seem to cause authors to not dare submit them.

"What kind of worthless pliee of SHIT is this!?"

That's my latest email on a story I wrote. Every time I browse around among stories on this site, I see brutal, mean-spirited and hurtful comments. Now, IO haven't been keeping up with the comings and gopings in the Story Feedback forum... is the same debate raging here as there?

Point is, there is rudeness everywhere. Why is it more terrible when it happens among poets?

silly Liar, this is because stories are real writing, poetry is just about the heart and soul, written for oneself, their true feelings and you know, not really an art and it is all just opinion anyway


(I am trying to see if I can get Lauren out to smack me kidding kidding kidding)

 

[annaswirls]

The second is, and I say the same thing to all that encounter it: Don't make someone else's lack of decorum-sense your problem. Shrug off, move on. That's all we can do, and that's all we should do.[/QUOTE]


that is what I was tryin' to say
I am going to make it really big now

 

[annaswirls]

hey sophia, dont give up, it happens to ALL of us

This is a good point, Liar.
But...I have seen many many threads over on the Ah from people who are discouraged by bad story feedback and want to give up. And they are ALWAYS told "Don't give up! It happens to all of us" and other forms of encouragment.
I don't think that happens here.
I also think there's a difference in writing poetry and writing a story. My stories are fiction. My poetry is me. A little chunk of me, cut wide open. So if someone says they hate a story, well fine. But if they hate my poem, it's a little more personal.

The support, it actually does happen here. I am glad that you had a friend to support you. I have had friends comfort me when I have been hurt by things that go on around here.

But I have put out for public view the many harsh comments people have given to say, see it happens to everyone! The support does happen here, maybe not as much lately, but I think that the air around here lately has been anti-critic so much that people who might have sympathized also do not want to discourage people from leaving helpful comments. Remember, even the poets that leave helpful comments that are not rude are often thanked by extreme rudeness, defensiveness, name calling, etc.





The other difference: when Senna Jawa went after me, it really hurt me. I cried. And I waited for someone here, on my thread, to give some kind of pat on the back or reassurance or some kind of comment to him that he was an ass. But that didn't happen. Instead, people either a) agreed with him or b) said they liked his comment. It was Imp who pmed me and consoled me. If not for her, I honestly would have stopped posting poetry on lit completely because I was left feeling like I had absolutely nothing to offer. That kind of thing would not happen on the AH.
Just my 2 cents (again).

 

[annaswirls]

I forgot, not sure if you answered that before-- but what does one need to do that have credentials? And does having them automatically put them in your elitist group?

and do you need credentials to say this is EXCELLENT? I mean, shouldn't it be, "In my uncredentialled opinion, I think this is excellent." What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

This would put us back to the statement to only take to heart those critiques by those with "Credentials" ....for all else are simply 'critics in training' or honest opinions of how the poem made them feel.

Ange listens to Senna because of his credentials? I would cast his comment in delete and not think twice about it. For there are way to many polite members here willing to help with a volley of friendly communication.

and I put Tara in the same list as Senna, 1201, sack and........those I do not listen to because they lack social skills and do not communicate well with others that are not at their level of elitism.

 

[Angeline]

If strong criticism, justified or not bothers anyone I suggest you read Swinburnes correspondene with Emerson. Swinburne's ability to abuse and Emersons capacity to ignore it are both wonderful.

Senna Jawa is a rude so in so but he is also a competant critic. Better that than a troweller of flattery.

It is interesting to compare say SJ with the Rain Man or Angeline for examples.SJ is a good critic but so are TRM and Angeline but they are also teachers - big difference.

You are very sweet.

Whenever I lose sight of the fact that the main reason I am here is to read and learn to better my own writing, I just slap myself upside the head untill I get over it.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I forgot, not sure if you answered that before-- but what does one need to do that have credentials? And does having them automatically put them in your elitist group?

and do you need credentials to say this is EXCELLENT? I mean, shouldn't it be, "In my uncredentialled opinion, I think this is excellent." What is good for the goose is good for the gander.

where's anna? There she is <grin...

Is the critic a Lit Maj, teacher, editor, publisher, author of many poetry books and or a poetry God! etc...etc... <learned that from SJ> I was told once that if you want a truely honest response to your poem, show it to a teen. They relay so well how words make them feel.

I do believe there is a large difference in telling some one how the poem made them feel or what they thought of the poem as in good or bad when you become a critic and suggest changes and/or in detail, those who do so with tact or polite I learn from. Those who have commented with snobbish remarks such as "Pathetic" "aweful" or "sorry" I dont believe very many will put a lot of stock into.

so here is a unique case of a person (I assume) has more than qualified credentials, that gives his time in a snobbish manner. So we can not rebutle his style of remarks? I think that is what the topic is for, to shine the light of enlightenment so perhaps this critic may be nicer on another poem.

 

[Guest]

To me, credentials have nothing to do with it. If you're only a reader or lover of poetry and stories, you have every right to say your opinion, and how you viewed the poem or story. You don't need any special degree to do so. I can only hope that some people be a little more kind giving reviews especially to those that are new.

Personally, I haven't had any problems, but if one wants to slam mine with a "crapola", it would simply be deleted. It did nothing for me and just shows how bored, heartless, and what wonderful self esteem they have.