This Time it's REAL

[SexyChele]

I'd love you to ask this question on the GB. I think you'd be stoned.

This isn't a very caring forum, is it.

This forum can be very caring. However, we here have been subject to the Artful/Dream melodrama all summer. Every week was a "major" problem, with resultant public ranting, ad nauseum. As soon as folks would offer sympathy to Dream, all was well, and she was upset that others were upset with Artful.

This type of game grows old - fast.

"Being stoned" on the GB is only as valid and harmful as one allows it to be. The folks there are just people who are, for the most part, here for entertainment.

Besides, most of the folks on the GB involved in LTRs are married and simply looking for a little extra excitement, so yeah, to them it is "real" even if they've never met.

(And, no, I didn't say "all", I said "most".)

 

[zipman]

I'd love you to ask this question on the GB. I think you'd be stoned.

This isn't a very caring forum, is it.

Personally, I always find it interesting when people who never post here, jump in, criticize the whole board, and then jump out again.

I don't know whether or not you are a friend of Dream's, (as other friends of hers have done the same thing, like Blue Dolphin) or whether you just come here and lurk.

I think this is a caring forum, much more so than the GB can be. And I post in both of them!

 

[A Desert Rose]

Yes Zip, I agree

People drop in and drop shit and drop out again.

On the other hand, you have people who occassionally come here and read and then post a well thought out and well meaning post (Ishmael's letter to Artfuls dream.)

Sometimes the outside, objective view is a welcome breath of fresh air, for those of us smart enough to inhale it.

 

[zipman]

Re: Yes Zip, I agree

People drop in and drop shit and drop out again.

On the other hand, you have people who occassionally come here and read and then post a well thought out and well meaning post (Ishmael's letter to Artfuls dream.)

Sometimes the outside, objective view is a welcome breath of fresh air, for those of us smart enough to inhale it.

I absolutely agree with you Rose. The difference is that Ishmael's post was a well thought-out peice as opposed to Ladybird's which was a drive by accusation.

The outside perspective can be refreshing, especially when the delivery and the intentions behind it are good.

 

[Ricckk]

This is a sad situation for both parties. But posting what SHOULD be the most private details of your life on a public forum is an invitation to respond. BOTH parties have chosen to take this route. It is not appropriate for dominants, submissives, or vanillas.

...but how "real" can an LTR be when you've only met once? How well can you REALLY know the other person without frequent, in the flesh contact? And even in 5 months, there's still a lot to learn even if you were together in person.

I hope this doesn't open another pandora's box. As someone who has been involved in a LTR for almost 5 years, I speak with some expertise when I say yes, you can really know the person. It is in some ways easier than "in person"; in some ways more difficult, and concessions surely have to be made. I will admit that BDSM is close to impossible but the D/s side of my relationship is stronger than many of our friends who live together.

The essential keys are HONEST and TIMELY communication, trust and CONSIDERATION for one's partner.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Speaking of Reality - Ladybird

There have been at least 20 people who are regular posters on this forum who have had MAJOR upheavals in their lives (Myself included). None of us have posted with such thoughtlessness and carelessness even though I know for a fact we all had some major hurt going.

We acted as adults and kept most of our hurt, anger, shame, or whatever to ourselves.


we have supported each other more times that I care to mention. But it never fails - there is always oneclueless fly by "Faux Judge Judy" who breezes in on her broom to lay down stupidity.

Begone Satan, you have no power here. Go back to your hidey hole - the General Board.

Ebonyfire <thanks for those words of wisdom...for me to poop on!!!>

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Speaking of Reality

There have been at least 20 people who are regular posters on this forum who have had MAJOR upheavals in their lives (Myself included). None of us have posted with such thoughtlessness and carelessness even though I know for a fact we all had some major hurt going.

We acted as adults and kept most of our hurt, anger, shame, or whatever to ourselves.


we have supported each other more times that I care to mention. But it never fails - there is always oneclueless fly by "Faux Judge Judy" who breezes in on her broom to lay down stupidity.

Begone Satan, you have no power here. Go back to your hidey hole - the General Board.

Ebonyfire <thanks for those words of wisdom...for me to poop on!!!>

___________________ name calling as in calling a good friend of mine Satan,is so below you Ebonyfire

 

[lovetoread]

Hon,I like ya,I do.

You know this.

But take a break and go hang with the kid.

Trust me,when it comes to heartbreak, they have powers to heal that is undeniable.

Remember that I too met and live with someone off of these boards,but if something happened between him and I,I would mention that it ended,but thats all.

There are some things that I wouldnt put on these public boards.

Sometimes words have a way to come back and bite you on the ass.

After awhile,get a new name and come be with us again.

But I'm drunk cause I felt stupid,so take my advice as you wish.

Be well and take care.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Speaking of Reality - Ladybird

There have been at least 20 people who are regular posters on this forum who have had MAJOR upheavals in their lives (Myself included). None of us have posted with such thoughtlessness and carelessness even though I know for a fact we all had some major hurt going.

We acted as adults and kept most of our hurt, anger, shame, or whatever to ourselves.

we have supported each other more times that I care to mention. But it never fails - there is always oneclueless fly by "Faux Judge Judy" who breezes in on her broom to lay down stupidity.

Yes, Eb absolutely. And thankfully, those who I chose to share my hurts with, kept them to themselves. It's part of being a mature and faithful friend or that at the very least, showing some degree of respect to me as a person.

Faithfulness and respect are part of the cornerstones of any relationship, whether it be a D/s or something else.

 

[Goddess Helena]

Re: Re: Speaking of Reality - Ladybird

Faithfulness and respect are part of the cornerstones of any relationship, whether it be a D/s or something else.

I agree.


Helena

 

[~Dream~]

RESPECT IS earned ,period

I wi NOT respect those who are assinine to me OR my feelings , JMHO and no one will change it

 

[UCE]

It is in clear and direct violation of lit's policies to post a pm.

I would assume that artful wanted to handle this in private or else he would have done so publicly.

Sigh, but people sometimes forget the rules when they are in emotional pain. Come on, folks, let's get off our high horses and be a little forgiving here. If someone does a boo-boo, they can be told ALSO IN PM. Or you can "report" the post for Raisa to "fix" later. No need to scold somebody who is already hurting bad in this way.

The rest of your post was nice, btw. Just have trouble with beginning it this way. We're all people with feelings here, and there is way too much of a certain gang of four or five posters (Not you Mistaken) beating up, literally GANGING UP, on anybody who is the least bit different.

Are you (and you know who I mean) really all that threatened and scared by "us?"

(shaking head sadly)

 

[UCE]

"Dream, I'm sorry you're hurting, really, I am, but how "real" can an LTR be when you've only met once? How well can you REALLY know the other person without frequent, in the flesh contact? And even in 5 months, there's still a lot to learn even if you were together in person."

If it's the right person, things can move very fast (of course, if its the wrong person, things can move fast, too, too fast). Five months of an LTR and I was living with the man of my dreams, the man I'm still waking up to after 15 long rich years. Just saying it can work in that short amount of time.

Usually it's best to take longer. Five months can seem like ages online because of the speed with which one communicates, but you're right about something, unless both people are very careful to communicate all the right things (and to do that you have to know what those things are to begin with), you can't begin to know someone really well until you've met in person or hung out together in real life a whole lot.

This is not a comment on dream's specific relationship, I am being quite general here.

 

[~Dream~]

ty UCE

Sigh, but people sometimes forget the rules when they are in emotional pain. Come on, folks, let's get off our high horses and be a little forgiving here. If someone does a boo-boo, they can be told ALSO IN PM. Or you can "report" the post for Raisa to "fix" later. No need to scold somebody who is already hurting bad in this way.

The rest of your post was nice, btw. Just have trouble with beginning it this way. We're all people with feelings here, and there is way too much of a certain gang of four or five posters (Not you Mistaken) beating up, literally GANGING UP, on anybody who is the least bit different.

Are you (and you know who I mean) really all that threatened and scared by "us?"

(shaking head sadly)

______________
For EVERYTHING .. and I truly mean that from the bottom of my heart .. you are special ,to me

 

[Kurmudgeon]

I know of a new Master for you, Dream..... and he'll put a nice, tight straight-jacket on you. Kinky!

 

[UCE]

It could also be argued that "if one were TRULY in love with and in collared submission to a Dominant," past or present, they would NEVER go out of their way to publicly abase, criticize and humiliate that Dominant.

Dream, I'm sorry you're hurting, but in posting all this private information publicly, you are *way* out of line--both in terms of Lit policy, and in terms of general decorum. This is deeply unstable behavior. I fear for your safety and the safety of those close to you; you don't seem rational right now.

RS,
Resident Cynic
~~

That is pretty cynical, in my opinion. You named it well. Sometimes people don't preplan these things, sometimes people don't think. Unless we want nobody to forgive us when the time comes and we don't think or cover our backs or to do the properly discrete and cynical thing (like so many subs do when they show off to the internet world how deeply they serve their domiant when in reality they don't give a rat's ass about his orders and are only interested in twisting any man who calls himself dom around theri little fingers--do you know this type? I meet them everywhere I go. They are the most common form of "submissive" out there). Dream has always let it all hang out. That is her style. I have never ever seen in her an intention to do it purposely to harm someone or embarasss them. It's just not in her, as far as I can see.

Look at the logic of the following for a moment: if your supposed dominant writes things to you in private that would be deeply embrassing and make him look bad if shown to the public, then I think we have a leetle problem with the domiannt here, like his trying maybe to pretend to the world that he is something that he is not? Liars and pretenders whose lies hurt, people who are not the essential people they claim to be or do not have what they claim to have, should be exposed in my opinion, and not protected, as they so often are by the bdsm scene. I am not saying artful is any such thing, by the way to those of you who are so quick to leap on others and so lax to look first. I am simply saying that a BDSM scene community's utterly improper and amoral protection of a dangerous and incompetent dominant via blaming the submissive as the criminal for her honest exposure of man, becuase of the petty reason that it "embarasses or shames" the perpetrator in front of others, is a pattern I have seen repeat over...and over...and over....and the submissives in this situtation (the current one attempting to blow the whistle on him and his future ones that he likewise destroys) are the only ones who ever get hurt.

This may not be such a situation, bit it did remind me of it a whole lot when I read those words quoted above.

Let me repeat this, for those of you who leap without looking:

This (meaning Artful's and Dream's unfortunate breakup) may very well NOT be such a situation as I described above (ie a small bdsm community protecting its incompetent and unworthy dominants in a cynical and utterly amoral fashion) but it did remind me of it, mightily. I have seen this pattern so many times before.

None of this meant directly at you, RS, except to say that cynicism of that depth, toward someone who is clearly--at leat to me who really GETS this type--an awkward innocent, is just a little more than I can stomach tonight. Can you support this cynicism? What do you know, having longer history here, that I don't?

I personally didn't know until Misstaken mentioned it that there was any rule against posting someone's private PMs and this was less than three days after someone very kindly directed me in private to the forum rules and I read them! Yes, I have a bad memory, but it is much much more than that. With some people, rules like that don't register...especially when one is feeling emotional (not vindicative, but upset) and wants to explain a horrible thing that has happened to you to the world. (And I'd say your abandonment by someone who promised to protect you and care for you and the "conditional" love it shows he had toward you is pretty high up there on the scale of emotional horrors--its about the very worst thing that can happen to a genuine submissive, anyway.)

I really think Dream's original post could just as easily have had innocent roots; just because you may be first to think of a cynical cause, doesn't mean that cause was actually there--it just means your mind works that way. You have to take into account the sort of personality you're dealing with to be able to predict accurately why they did or did not do something. And Dream, at least to me, has a very spontaenous, emotional, let it all hang out, HONEST (oh so refreshingly honest compared with...well nevermind!) personality. What you see is what you get. In my mind, if it had occurred to her that she was breaking a forum rule, I doubt extremely highly that she would have posted part of someone else's pm in a message.

There was probably a time when very cynical and sly people got away with some great nastiness by making people's private pms public, and hence the rule not to do so. But you have to consider intent when you apply such a rule to someone, or you judgers on your high thrones are acting as cynically and as slyly as the cretins that made the rule necesssary in the first place. To accuse an innocent person of something they did unknowingly and to pretend that, dispite their protests to the contraray, that it was DONE ON PURPOSE is a foul, foul thing to do. Perhaps some of you people who are so eager to stone dream for her great forum misdemeanoer, ought to think about the fucking glass you're throwing into. This group approbation of a probably innocent deed is getting quite ugly.

I pray that all of you who have purposefully jumped all over a poor girl who's utterly distraught at losing her master, because you like her master better than her, have the same thing happen to you ten times over! It is horrible, truly horrible, to be beaten up on by a gang of thugs, whether they be physical or online. Maybe when or if you experience it, you'll show some damn compassion when dealing with others undergoing a similar treatment. Although, based on what I've observed about people, most people do not learn from that kind of lesson. They just go on like robots, in a knee-jerk reactionary fashion, trying to hurt others.

Thanks to those of you who have offered Dream your condolences and support, as you should help anyone, no matter who they are, who is undergoing hard times and needs that support As for the rest of you:

May you live in the most INTERESTING of times.

~sweet white fluffy clould smiley-dialies!~
Unda

PS: As for the claim that Dream is unstable, once again, who among you all can claim to have never acted hysterically and hurt when faced with extreme emotional trials like your lover abandoning you? I bet that many of you have done much more worse in real life than speak openly and honestly to a forum of people you consider your friends, asking for help and support! I think that asking for help from what is basically her support group was an extremely RATIONAL thing to do, under the circumstances, and I don't understand how anyone could possibly construe such an honest and impassioned plea as "unstable" let alone "dangerous to others.

Finally, for a person who recently spoke proudly of her personal ability not to psychoanaylze others--that was in the Cutting thread, remember?--you're humming a very different tune now, aren't you, RS? Unstable and dangerous are very serious charges and surely rather irrational ones to make to a woman who was merely pourly her heart out, albeit in a clumsey way. If Dream is guilty of any failing here, she is guilty of not being sly enough and cunning enough for the rest of you who are bullying her and injustly accusing her of crazily exaggerated things such as instability. And that's the main reason why I think she's a person well worth knowing.

 

[Ebonyfire]

If your post is so simple, why is it so

That is pretty cynical, in my opinion. You named it well. Sometimes people don't preplan these things, sometimes people don't think. Unless we want nobody to forgive us when the time comes and we don't think or cover our backs or to do the properly discrete and cynical thing (like so many subs do when they show off to the internet world how deeply they serve their domiant when in reality they don't give a rat's ass about his orders and are only interested in twisting any man who calls himself dom around theri little fingers--do you know this type? I meet them everywhere I go. They are the most common form of "submissive" out there). Dream has always let it all hang out. That is her style. I have never ever seen in her an intention to do it purposely to harm someone or embarasss them. It's just not in her, as far as I can see.

Look at the logic of the following for a moment: if your supposed dominant writes things to you in private that would be deeply embrassing and make him look bad if shown to the public, then I think we have a leetle problem with the domiannt here, like his trying maybe to pretend to the world that he is something that he is not? Liars and pretenders whose lies hurt, people who are not the essential people they claim to be or do not have what they claim to have, should be exposed in my opinion, and not protected, as they so often are by the bdsm scene. I am not saying artful is any such thing, by the way to those of you who are so quick to leap on others and so lax to look first. I am simply saying that a BDSM scene community's utterly improper and amoral protection of a dangerous and incompetent dominant via blaming the submissive as the criminal for her honest exposure of man, becuase of the petty reason that it "embarasses or shames" the perpetrator in front of others, is a pattern I have seen repeat over...and over...and over....and the submissives in this situtation (the current one attempting to blow the whistle on him and his future ones that he likewise destroys) are the only ones who ever get hurt.

This may not be such a situation, bit it did remind me of it a whole lot when I read those words quoted above.

Let me repeat this, for those of you who leap without looking:

This (meaning Artful's and Dream's unfortunate breakup) may very well NOT be such a situation as I described above (ie a small bdsm community protecting its incompetent and unworthy dominants in a cynical and utterly amoral fashion) but it did remind me of it, mightily. I have seen this pattern so many times before.

None of this meant directly at you, RS, except to say that cynicism of that depth, toward someone who is clearly--at leat to me who really GETS this type--an awkward innocent, is just a little more than I can stomach tonight. Can you support this cynicism? What do you know, having longer history here, that I don't?

I personally didn't know until Misstaken mentioned it that there was any rule against posting someone's private PMs and this was less than three days after someone very kindly directed me in private to the forum rules and I read them! Yes, I have a bad memory, but it is much much more than that. With some people, rules like that don't register...especially when one is feeling emotional (not vindicative, but upset) and wants to explain a horrible thing that has happened to you to the world. (And I'd say your abandonment by someone who promised to protect you and care for you and the "conditional" love it shows he had toward you is pretty high up there on the scale of emotional horrors--its about the very worst thing that can happen to a genuine submissive, anyway.)

I really think Dream's original post could just as easily have had innocent roots; just because you may be first to think of a cynical cause, doesn't mean that cause was actually there--it just means your mind works that way. You have to take into account the sort of personality you're dealing with to be able to predict accurately why they did or did not do something. And Dream, at least to me, has a very spontaenous, emotional, let it all hang out, HONEST (oh so refreshingly honest compared with...well nevermind!) personality. What you see is what you get. In my mind, if it had occurred to her that she was breaking a forum rule, I doubt extremely highly that she would have posted part of someone else's pm in a message.

There was probably a time when very cynical and sly people got away with some great nastiness by making people's private pms public, and hence the rule not to do so. But you have to consider intent when you apply such a rule to someone, or you judgers on your high thrones are acting as cynically and as slyly as the cretins that made the rule necesssary in the first place. To accuse an innocent person of something they did unknowingly and to pretend that, dispite their protests to the contraray, that it was DONE ON PURPOSE is a foul, foul thing to do. Perhaps some of you people who are so eager to stone dream for her great forum misdemeanoer, ought to think about the fucking glass you're throwing into. This group approbation of a probably innocent deed is getting quite ugly.

I pray that all of you who have purposefully jumped all over a poor girl who's utterly distraught at losing her master, because you like her master better than her, have the same thing happen to you ten times over! It is horrible, truly horrible, to be beaten up on by a gang of thugs, whether they be physical or online. Maybe when or if you experience it, you'll show some damn compassion when dealing with others undergoing a similar treatment. Although, based on what I've observed about people, most people do not learn from that kind of lesson. They just go on like robots, in a knee-jerk reactionary fashion, trying to hurt others.

Thanks to those of you who have offered Dream your condolences and support, as you should help anyone, no matter who they are, who is undergoing hard times and needs that support As for the rest of you:

May you live in the most INTERESTING of times.

~sweet white fluffy clould smiley-dialies!~
Unda

PS: As for the claim that Dream is unstable, once again, who among you all can claim to have never acted hysterically and hurt when faced with extreme emotional trials like your lover abandoning you? I bet that many of you have done much more worse in real life than speak openly and honestly to a forum of people you consider your friends, asking for help and support! I think that asking for help from what is basically her support group was an extremely RATIONAL thing to do, under the circumstances, and I don't understand how anyone could possibly construe such an honest and impassioned plea as "unstable" let alone "dangerous to others.

Finally, for a person who recently spoke proudly of her personal ability not to psychoanaylze others--that was in the Cutting thread, remember?--you're humming a very different tune now, aren't you, RS? Unstable and dangerous are very serious charges and surely rather irrational ones to make to a woman who was merely pourly her heart out, albeit in a clumsey way. If Dream is guilty of any failing here, she is guilty of not being sly enough and cunning enough for the rest of you who are bullying her and injustly accusing her of crazily exaggerated things such as instability. And that's the main reason why I think she's a person well worth knowing.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: If your post has a point, why is it so

LONG?

 

[RisiaSkye]

None of this meant directly at you, RS, except to say that cynicism of that depth, toward someone who is clearly--at leat to me who really GETS this type--an awkward innocent, is just a little more than I can stomach tonight. Can you support this cynicism? What do you know, having longer history here, that I don't?

A great deal, actually. None of which I'd make public, as it was shared privately. I posted my opinion, nothing more. You're entitled to your disagreement, but I am profoundly unlikely to change my opinion based on your generalizations and lack of specific information.

I personally didn't know until Misstaken mentioned it that there was any rule against posting someone's private PMs and this was less than three days after someone very kindly directed me in private to the forum rules and I read them!

You also weren't here during the crafting of those rules and that language. Dream was. And this isn't the first time it's been as issue in her posts, either. She knows the rules, and she's broken them previously, using "emotional distress" as a reason to ignore the rules she claimed to support so unequivocally. Again, context and background information is key.

And it's nothing personal against Dream, either. She seems like a decent sort, if a little confused.

Finally, for a person who recently spoke proudly of her personal ability not to psychoanaylze others--that was in the Cutting thread, remember?--you're humming a very different tune now, aren't you, RS

Actually, I didn't say I don't do it, I said that most who psychoanalyze others need to take a good hard look at themselves. And that occasionally I take my own advice. I don't see any hypocrisy in that, as I take a good hard look at my own life and choices as often as possible. That's how I live my life.

I stand by my statement: a woman who has told us she's bi-polar, emotionally unstable, and deeply scarred came forward to say she was devastated. Her posts were bitterly angry, ramblingly incoherent, and indicated self-destructive desires. To me, that's the picture of instability. My concern for her was, and is, quite legitimate.

I can't speak for the legitimacy of your concerns, though. I suppose only you can know that.

RS,
Human & Resident Cynic.

 

[~Dream~]

Risia

although I am entitled to disagree with you about your feelings about me ,I respect you for helping me to get my name back ty very much that means alot to me ,so I can start off fresh and new

 

[A Desert Rose]

Common sense

dictates that one would not share another's PMs. That is an invasion of a person's privacy. Just as one would not post another's email address on the board or a phone number.

That is really an easy concept to grasp.

 

[UCE]

One more comment

I have seen a lot of horrible and cruel things online in the years I've been communciating this way. But watching someone get totally bashed by so many people for the grevious sin of spilling her heart out and asking for help remains to me probably the lowest and the dirtiest. Kicking Somebody When They Are Down. Hurting them when they ask for help. Telling them they're SHIT when they're already devestated. Fucking them over on a simple technicality which they probably weren't even thinking about and lying to others about their motivations in the sneakiest and most cunning of ways! Claiming to WANT respect and to GIVE respect to others, claiming to be OPEN MINDED and then to do something as stinking and dirty as this to a human being asking for help! Even filthy rats don't do this to their own kind. Human beings are the foulest creatures to even walk on earth, and OF COUSE, leapers before lookers, I INCLUDE myself in that group.

I think people need to look at this woman's original message, at the hostile responses in this thread and elsewhere, and ask themselves, "Do I REALLY THINK I am going to find any genuine dominant or submissive in a snake pit such as this?" Think about it folks: what kind of _available_ person of quality who wasn't here, semi-suicidally gritting her teeth at the constant ugliness and hatred simply so she can to offer a few clues to those who might be able to see and to use them, would stay around in a place like this?

Oh lookers before leapers.... you ain't the ones that are gonna get any clues. So don't tell me as you always so tiresomely do at this juncture (yes I've been here done that before folks, and I will write that book someday, I promise you) to GO AWAY FOR YOUR SAKE as you don't want me here! LOL! Hasn't it dawned on you YET I don't give a flying fuck about your sakes!

Bitterly and with good reason,
Unda

 

[RisiaSkye]

Re: Risia

although I am entitled to disagree with you about your feelings about me ,I respect you for helping me to get my name back ty very much that means alot to me ,so I can start off fresh and new

You're welcome, Dream.

As we've communicated privately, I believe you understand (far better than UCE) what I was saying in my posts. From my end, we're fine. If there are problems from your end, consider this an open ended invitation to contact me by PM to sort them out.

Best of luck to you in this new leg of your journey.

RS

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Common sense

dictates that one would not share another's PMs. That is an invasion of a person's privacy. Just as one would not post another's email address on the board or a phone number.

That is really an easy concept to grasp.

Evidently not.

Eb

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Common sense

Evidently not.

Eb

_____________
eveidently my name is DREAM AND whe upset I handle things wrong sometime ,so sue me!!