Tops are from Mars, Bottoms are from Venus

[Netzach]

I agree re: feeling vulnerable as a Top. It's a very weird thing, I'm very guarded about Dominance as opposed to doing a scene as a Top, I'm very cautious about who I show that hand to and frankly it's been easily and often abused.

 

[Marquis]

Well I guess we'll have to keep it platonic Netz cause hanggliding I just can't do.

 

[Netzach]

Can Cait please clone little lesbian Caits all over for my personal delectation?

You are so articulate and to boot, you seem to always be describing the kind of submission that explains why submissives make me lust.

 

[Netzach]

Well I guess we'll have to keep it platonic Netz cause hanggliding I just can't do.

Yeah well to be fair most of the exclusively Top people I've been adored by don't look as good in black linen.

A good platonic is hard to find.

 

[Marquis]

well, there is problem number one. Why are you asking vanilla girls to submit?

This question could be answered in a million ways, but I think the most honest answer is this.

I have a "fuck first, ask questions later" policy.

 

[Kajira Callista]

This question could be answered in a million ways, but I think the most honest answer is this.

I have a "fuck first, ask questions later" policy.

then you need to develop a sense for the right type.

 

[Caitlynne]

Can Cait please clone little lesbian Caits all over for my personal delectation?

You are so articulate and to boot, you seem to always be describing the kind of submission that explains why submissives make me lust.

~smiles~ I'll do my best to to find some lesbian Caits and send them along for your pleasure. But I admit, you're so interesting to me, that I'm not sure I won't gift wrap myself and send the original along.

Seriously, thank you for your comments.

 

[Marquis]

then you need to develop a sense for the right type.

I'm getting better at it, but this is no easy task.

A hot, submissive female under the age of 30 is a rare thing indeed. Plus I do not always come across immediately as someone intellectual or well thought out in real life, which I think is more the type subs tend to be attracted to.

I go to typical South Florida clubs and bars and look like the typical South Florida playboy. Thusly, I usually go home with the typical South Florida ho, and hope for the best.

 

[Kajira Callista]

I'm getting better at it, but this is no easy task.

A hot, submissive female under the age of 30 is a rare thing indeed. Plus I do not always come across immediately as someone intellectual or well thought out in real life, which I think is more the type subs tend to be attracted to.

I go to typical South Florida clubs and bars and look like the typical South Florida playboy. Thusly, I usually go home with the typical South Florida ho, and hope for the best.

It takes time, and you are young and having fun while learning. Thats a good thing.

Just wanted to add that i am not putting you down for being young. I think it is great that you are 22 and know who you are and what you want....i know ppl 45+ who still dont have those answers.

 

[caela]

< major snipping >
The times in my life that I've had to play the submissive role was when I've had no other option, often times when I was literally beaten into submission, and I look back on those who robbed me of my dignity with seething hatred and a strong desire for revenge.

Of the entire original post this is what my brain fixated on.

Could part of your lack of respect for submissives be, at least in part, due to the fact that the only times in your life that you have submitted, you've been forced to?

What you say here speaks so strongly that I can't help but wondering if this desire for revenge and hatred doesn't color your view of those that would make the choice to do what you had to be forced to do.

The fact that a submissive chooses to submit doesn't make them any less self-interested then a dominant, it simply means that they have different needs and desires to be interested in.

Just as an example, I personally enjoy bondage. There is nothing to me like the feel of leather or rope holding me firmly in place and being at the mercy of my chosen partner. Put that same rope or leather in my hands though to use on the other person and I am lost, my interest, my needs, don't go there. So I find partners that don't want to be on my side of the rope and there is a delicious reciprocity and everyone is happy because our needs and desires were well served by each other.

Of course just because I feel the need to submit doesn't mean I couldn't wipe the floor with someone if I needed to.

Sorry for the ramble it's late for me and I can't sleep so I couldn't resist putting my two cents worth in. My impulse control goes to hell when I'm playing the insomniac.

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: Damn Bro

I was raised to be self-reliant, and it is something I believe in with religious fervor.

There are things in life which we take pride in. Things which we place value and meaning on. It is where we derive our sense of honor.

You learned from your mother's example to be self reliant. You saw the things she faced in order to become independant and self reliant. I can see how you would give respect to someone you view, who takes responsibility for themselves. This is what you were taught.

The question therefore...where is the honor in submission? How can giving one's self to another in submission be noble? This is what I see as the real question Marquis.

Everything you have presented from your life shows why submission is viewed in a negative light. Why you do not see submission as an honorable thing. So why respect those who do it?

Caitlynne has made some wonderful points. It is my hope that other submissives will also share.

Catilina made a very good point earlier...in that she had just about anything a person could want...if she wanted, she could be self reliant, yet she chose to be submissive to a man.

try this on for size...

Imagine if you had a woman who was part of your life, who has an attitude of seeking to honor, be devoted, serve and please you with her actions and her words. Her thoughts are to bring honor to you in all that she does. Her heart is to be devoted to you, in loyaty and faithfulness. Her desire is to serve you, to see to your needs. To ensure your home is run in a manner as you wish through obedience. To give her body to be used for your pleasure.

Does she not honor herself in the giving of honor to you? Is her devotion, friendship and loyalty not worthy of acknowledgement? Is not her service something in which you can take value in? Is not the pleasure she can provide something to refresh your soul?

Is there not the deepest sense of satisfaction that your presence brings this forth out of her spirit and lays herself, mind, heart and body at your feet.

I can think of nothing more honoring than this.

It is a shame that so much focus is limited to the sexualness to the degree that the other beautiful things are often never seen or touched. It is so often presented that the "scene" is the ultimate in intamacy in a D/s relationship. There is so much talk about "getting to" that level of trust, and there is good reason for that, yet I say that is not the ultimate in intamacy.

Respect is earned in the day to day things of life which I like to call the trenches.

The age old saying....

Woman: "Will you respect me in the morning?"
Man: (thinking- Gawd I hope not) Saying sure I will.

I don't think I have ever given a person respect for how good of a blow job they can give. I don't think I have ever given respect for how good a lay they have been. I don't think I have ever give respect to anyone because of how goodlooking they are. So that tells me there is a good chance i shall never learn to respect someone because of sexual acts alone.

However I have given respect to a person when those things are given to me as a gift from a submissive heart...and it is surprising how beautiful I find a submissive woman to be. It never ceases to amaze me the "beauty" and "strength" of a submissive.

 

[Netzach]

wow, that's maybe true, but it's all pretty hard core domestic and heavy for someone who's 22 and playing the field a bit. I'm not getting the sense that there's a really profound search for a lifemate going on here, but I could be way off base with that guess.

Maybe your experience with sexually submissive girls is largely with girls who don't really want to be respected or worry about being respected... as you alluded to, the south florida club scene is not teeming with people looking for someone to honor and deeply admire.

Is it not possible that there might be a girl out there who has had extremely similar upbringing and tragedy to you, who has pulled herself up and figured her own shit out...imagine meeting a girl like this. Maybe you have. Maybe you have and you don't know it, or maybe you do know it.

Does your respect for her experience or independence fly out the window the minute you find out that she really gets turned on by being yanked by the hair and nailed to the wall with your dick while you call her names?

I think if she really had a lot in common with you, it wouldn't, not entirely.

Maybe it's a failure to see yourself in these other people, in non-bedroom ways? And maybe you don't have much in common with them, it's not a failing on your part.

 

[catalina_francisco]

You make a good point about choice, but I think arguments of choice and free will tend to be very circular. Regardless, I still have a hard time understanding why people would willingly give up power. People fight hard for the power they have, and even maintaining power rarely comes without a price. I suppose you could make the argument that subs are simply benevolent, but I refuse to believe they're any less self-interested than every other living creature.

I actually have a slight problem with the notion subs are naturally benevolent....that once again presumes on a certain level that giving to others or caring makes one a submissive....it doesn't. Caring people do not have to automatically be submissive, often quite the opposite....and all too often subs use that veneer of benevolence to lure a Dominant into believing it is who they are. Simple facts of life which can go both ways.

As to why one who has tasted power would willingly give up power....that is one of the reasons I feel it is often something which is better to enjoy and appreciate later in life rather than in the late teens - early twenties phase of life. I have successfuly run my own life, survived as a single mother happily and alone for 16 years....makes giving up that power possible because I do not have to prove to myself or anyone I am capable of surviving no matter what, I already know I can. When you know that, it is a lot less scary to surrender yourself than if you are in the back of your mind wondering what you will do, how you will survive without a Dominant to tell you what, how, and when to do things, how to think.

You actually have something to surrender as opposed to the view you are seeking a Dominant to take care of you, provide you with your every whim so to speak. That is where I find a discrepency in RJ's theory of needing to be provided for...it has a narrow focus based on his personal preferences as he states and does not afford the submissive the respect of offering their submission honestly and without hidden agenda's or strings attached, instead suggesting it is a matter of needing to be provided for in whatever way which drives them to their submission. I believe lasting submission comes from a much deeper place than that.

Yes, a good Dominant does provide the complementary things such as emotional investment, perhaps financial stability, guidance etc., but I do not think it should be the grounds on which the relationship is based because the sub cannot do those things for her or himself. That moves away from submission and D/s to me and becomes dependency and opportunism. IMHO it is the basis for too many relationships, vanilla included.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

That is where I find a discrepency in RJ's theory...it has a narrow focus based on his personal preferences as he states and does not afford the submissive the respect of offering their submission honestly and without hidden agenda's, instead suggesting it is a matter of needing to be provided for in whatever way which drives them to their submission.

Catalina

Cat would you care to retract, clarify or amend the above statement before I respond to it?

 

[graceanne]

Ok, been thinking on this for a bit. As RJ knows he and I have very similar views on D/s, so we're pretty much in agreement.

I don't see submission as a sign of weekness. I was also raised to be self reliant and independant. To tell the truth it was very hard, and is still very hard, for me to submit, to trust someone that much. It quite often takes a lot of strenght of will not to try and take control. If K and I'd talked this over 7 years ago when we'd married, I'd have turned him down flat. I would not have been able to give him that much control, the idea would have scared the shit out of me. So, it takes great strength of will to follow this path.

I'm also not going to say that it's not selfishly motivated. I get a lot pleasure and contentment, and fulfillment out of my submission to him. And I'm not talking about the sex, cause that - while great- has nothing to do with it. I get my pleasure out making him happy in everything. I don't get a sexual thrill out of getting up in the morning and making him breakfast, or from washing and folding his laundry. I do it cause it makes his life easier, and it makes him happy. It's a wonderful feeling to know that I've pleased him. Even if I get nothing else out of it, that's enough.

I know that you get sneary at me cause I am so careful not to be rude or hurt peoples feelings. I am not really worried about your opinion of me, cause I dont' know you well enough to care. But I think that with you that you are one of those people who see everything in black and white. Their's the right way to do it and the wrong way to do it. And so, of course, you are going to see your way as the right way to do it. That includes assertiveness. I guarantee that I can be assertive. Being a sub doesn't mean that I'm a floormat, or that I will put up with abuse. I won't, I just don't choose to make everything a battle.

I think that someone earlier (I can't remember who it was that said it) is right, that part of the reason you can't respect a sub, is because of where you are looking for them.

For a relationship to work, IMO, the people have to be thinking of someone other than themselves. You need to be thinking of her welfare and her of yours. This is even more so in a D/s relationship. For a D/s relationship I need to be thinking of my dom's needs, even as he is thinking of mine (not just sexually). Otherwise it's not balanced, it's lopsided, and someone is going to be unhappy. It's not all about me and it's not all about him.

If you want this kind of relationship, then you need to start looking for women outside of clubs and bars. People who go there are not looking for a caring relationship, they are looking to get laid, which is in itself a selfish thing to be looking for. They aren't really that interested in making you happy, as long as they get what they want. On the other hand, you aren't realy looking to make them happy, as long as you get laid, so it's not fair of you to expect more from them than you are willing to give. Is it?

 

[RJMasters]

wow, that's maybe true, but it's all pretty hard core domestic and heavy for someone who's 22 and playing the field a bit. I'm not getting the sense that there's a really profound search for a lifemate going on here, but I could be way off base with that guess.

True, very true. Marquis is certainly enjoying being 22 and there is nothing wrong with that at all. I think part of our conversation was him asking...

-----
Just curious if the BDSM hypocracy I feel will go away with age.
-----

I think at this time, there may not be this intense focus on the heavy side of domestic. However, I don't think it hurts to have the knowledge tucked away for when such a time comes. Being a dominant person and being a Dominant to a person can be two very different things as SD has mentioned.

IMO Marquis is clearly a Dominant man, as he grows older with experience and knowledge, he will come to further understand what it means to be a Dominant to another. I am encouraged that he is open minded to hear many viewpoints from people...and there is a good chance that yes, in time/with age, as his focus changes from "fuck first ask questions later" to seeking something more substantial in way of a permanant parter. When this happens, I am betting that he will begin to appreciate more the other aspects of what a submissive is and can be(or mean to him). With that appreciation, he will remember back to this conversation and have a deeper understanding of the views expressed and be able to draw on them.

I am not judging him nor begrudging his view of florida women as fuck toys as they seem to be consenting fuck toys...as expressed, but I do point out that this is part of the source of the BDSM hypocrisy he is feeling. I would go so far to guess that Marquis doesn't want his sisters to be submissive because of his current view of submissives, but also I do not think he would want his sisters to be flordia fuck toys either(submissive or not). It is this thought that has caught him in a moment of self-reflection and ponderance.


What started this discussion

 

[dolf]

my biggest concern...that one morning one of these women wakes up feeling ashamed enough of the night before to get him hauled down to the police station to have his reputation ruined.
we know that women will take this consensually but not everyone will believe that.
i think Marquis is playing a very dangerous game here....


oh, and i did observe that you were cold...but you admited to projecting that deliberately
xx

 

[catalina_francisco]

I believe that being Dominant or being submissive or switch by that matter comes from a deep primal instinct that compels us to become who we are. It is my conviction that there are dominants (male and female) who simply can not accept being dominated. Who hate being dominated; it is the complete opposite of whom they are.

I cannot be dominated simply because I hate being dominated. It does nothing for me but degrade me. I find no pleasure in it, no ‘kick’, if anything quite the contrary. I believe you experience the same sensations as I do. I have often said and I believe it that to dominate me you would have to rape me, which in my book has nothing to do with Domination.

There are many like me out there men and women who simply can not be dominated to whom it is repulsive to be dominated, which core will never allow it to be dominated by another human being. I call those persons Natural Dominants and I believe from what you say you are one of them. The same applies to submissive and to switches. We are all caught in a game which is driven by instincts and needs. Just like Dominants need to dominate a submissive has a deep primal instinct to be controlled. Of course we are above all human beings so to a degree we can control our own needs and instincts but that leads only to misery and unhappiness.

One of my favourite quotes of my favourite writer is;
"This above all else, to thine own self be true" William Shakespeare.

So be true to yourself and accept that you do not like being dominated and that you enjoy dominating another. What you should try to differentiate between is your own feelings about submitting and the feelings of another. To submit is to feel the same depths and strength in needs and instincts just the opposite of that of a Dominant. To many submissive it as repulsive to dominate as it is for you to submit.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

well, let's see.

I went from considering myself Dominant, and totally disgusted with the idea of submitting, certainly not interested in painplay...to getting interested in painplay after finding out I liked my "let's test this out so you know how it feels" experiences a lot more than I ever thought I would... My girlfriend slapped my face while we were fucking, then let me slap hers, and it got me really hot both times, sure was a wakeup call for me...., to becoming pretty flexible about my identity and seeing myself as a pretty 50/50 switch in pursuit of new experiences and different kinds of pleasure....to realizing that every time I tried submitting to someone, male or female or other, they let me down and I got all needy and weird and didn't like myself even if the lead-in was hot and sexy....to finding an ideal submissive partner for me and pretty much letting that other 50 percent shrink down to a tiny maybe %2 in the interest of my own sanity.

I totally thought I had myself nailed when I was 22 and definitely a Domme.

I did, and I didn't.

I did have that attitude of "oh, God no, not I, yecch" when I thought about submission, then, with no basis for knowing better.

I went through a process and the attitude has come to be more, "shrug, it's not really my bag, but I can tell you the parts I liked about it." Kind of full circle.

I've been there and been in sub-space, even, I've humbled myself and felt good about myself and my service to the only person I've ever called Daddy, and my mastery of the same person, who's only ever called me his Mistress. For some reason, it's that configuration that feels balanced and right for us. I don't get too needy, he doesn't get too pressured.

I don't know if I can chalk that up to maturing or just being exposed to enough submissive people I respected, being in a position of wanting to please and honor someone without tolerating being made to feel an ass over it, then growing up to the point where I felt that I really could nurture and do right by another adult who wants me to lead them. That was NOT in my repetoire at 22. Not in the least. I'm glad I didn't fly out the gate as that baby Domme, that I really came into that part of my identity after 25 or 26. But I'm a late bloomer. I only got sexually active at 19, I have always been smart and extremely sheltered.

I could take a lot of degrading play, I never could take the notion that someone was being smug about their position over me. That was an automatic fuck off forever, and it's why I pretty much only ever trusted other switches who would bottom to me. The one exception was an FTM who had a Mistress but didn't see himself as a sub, rather as a bottom and trainee. He was not gonna bottom to me on any account, but he was funny and kind and non-threatening even though evil, and damned good with a cane.

 

[Netzach]

I hate being dominated.

I do too, as per my comments about being the world's worst employee and a pain in the ass.

What I did enjoy was pleasing and taking care of someone I trusted. As long as I felt like I was in control of my service, it was all copacetic.

So yes, I think there's a control instinct that can't be violated without fucking a person like me up. But I don't think we're completely incapable of roles other than Dominant Top in the spectrum.

 

[catalina_francisco]

I do too, as per my comments about being the world's worst employee and a pain in the ass.

What I did enjoy was pleasing and taking care of someone I trusted. As long as I felt like I was in control of my service, it was all copacetic.

So yes, I think there's a control instinct that can't be violated without fucking a person like me up. But I don't think we're completely incapable of roles other than Dominant Top in the spectrum.

Like I said Netzach, we are human beings so to a degree we can control our own needs and instincts but that is a road that leads only to misery and unhappiness according to me. Yes it might lead to a better and deeper understanding, but I am not willing to pay the price for that perception.

Francisco.

 

[Netzach]

True, insamuch as I know that if I made service my life or the only thing in it I'd have gone bonkers by now, many times over.

As a facet and a phase, nice place to visit, wouldn't wanna live there. For me it was kind of like going to Europe.

 

[LadyNatasha]

I do too, as per my comments about being the world's worst employee and a pain in the ass.

What I did enjoy was pleasing and taking care of someone I trusted. As long as I felt like I was in control of my service, it was all copacetic.

So yes, I think there's a control instinct that can't be violated without fucking a person like me up. But I don't think we're completely incapable of roles other than Dominant Top in the spectrum.

Very well stated.

 

[catalina_francisco]

True, insamuch as I know that if I made service my life or the only thing in it I'd have gone bonkers by now, many times over.

As a facet and a phase, nice place to visit, wouldn't wanna live there. For me it was kind of like going to Europe.

He what is wrong with Europe, and might I remind you that everyone says that New York is about the most European city in the US.

Francisco.

 

[catalina_francisco]

.and this is not meant to be personal, just discussing varying views and perceptions

Cat would you care to retract, clarify or amend the above statement before I respond to it?

Certainly, and I acknowledge I have taken the statement out of context, but it reflects a lot of the thinking process I have seen in other threads. My statement came from this statement you made in the original post:

"They shake their tail feathers and Doms dance to their tune. It is no surprise that sex has become the focus of D/s rather than Dominance and submission. Too many Doms thinking with their cocks and not with their brains. In real life....women have this same attitude, in that they think the can manipulate or change a man.

The truth is...A woman(like your sisters or my daughters) have little choice in this world. They either will go to college and get a career in which to provide for themselves, or they will "cling" to another person to be provided for. That person then becomes their "provider".

You know as well as I do how the provision rule works. If one is being provided for, then there are expectations which come along with that provision.....

There is nothing more sacred or beautiful that a woman who seeks to honor, be devoted, serve and please the man who provides for her. Unfortunately, there are not many worthy Dom/mes of such honor, devotion, service or pleasure. "

In reading the full post there are good points which appear more realistic, but this part I have quoted above colour it all with a neediness motivation for submission. Perhaps it is just the way I am reading it and my long history involved with feminist issues, but it just seems the focus is on a submissive being in a position of need and that being their focus of why they submit and serve, not that they do so out of the need and desire to submit whether they receive anything in return or not.

For example, in reality if you bring it down to 'you work or you don't work and live off another', are men any more exempt from this 2 choice mode of thought...and does it have anything to do with D/s or is it just the way the world in general works? And because a woman lives in a traditional way as in her partner providing the financial income either in whole or the majority, and which you yourself seem to have said you favour as the way you like things, why does this necessarily equate to her 'clinging' to that partner so she is provided for? Doesn't she even in the traditional 50's image also provide a service in the home which otherwise would have to be done by the male himself or paid to be done by an outsider?

I don't see there are only 2 choices, nor do I see it is how one becomes a submissive, though I admit some project that needy image because I believe many are confused that is what submission is, being taken care of like a prince/ss. It is not rare to hear a submissive who is looking for a Dominant to talk about how they want a Dom/me so they no longer have to make decisions, do anything, take responsibility, have someone to take care of them etc....in which case the Dominant becomes the one as you say fulfilling the needs of the said submissive at the expense of their own needs....that IME is not how it works. I see it more as the submissive is in the role that generally provides the Dominant with what they require which in turn may satisfy some or all of the submissive's needs, but also may not.

In our relationship I have contributed and continue to in many ways including financially, but the focus of the relationship is not about him providing for me or providing me with my needs, though he does in the manner he chooses to and when he chooses to and on his terms. The focus is about my submitting and providing him with his needs, my informed choice to give up my power and control in deference to his Dominance, power, and control in a relationship where needs are mirrored and symbiotic, not borne out of a 'no choice' situation which sees one being a clinging parasitic vine to the other. The focus would not change even if I worked fulltime, employment and my income are irrelevant.

I sought this relationship for the D/s element I wanted to live as a reality the rest of my life, not as a means to be provided for....I could just as easily have become the submissive of a man who required me to earn the income, provide the necessities of life because while looking I never even raised the topic of who would provide the income or if we both would as it was not a priority to what I sought, nor does it seem to be his. I could also have found a lovely vanilla male (actually had plenty offer) who would have provided for my every whim, financial and otherwise, but that was not D/s. I also know submissives who have had to become the breadwinner and manager of the household because their Dominant has through illness, accident, or retirement no longer been able to do so, but the D/s dynamic does not change to then make the former submissive the new Dominant.

IME D/s is not about money or providing for a submissive's needs and I daresay if I had approached any of the prospective Dom's in my search with the idea they were going to provide for me in any form, I would have choked on the dust as they beat a hasty retreat. I am fortunate I am with One who cares for and does treat me from time to time, but it is not the basis for validity and authenticity in our or many other D/s relationships.

Catalina