Tops are from Mars, Bottoms are from Venus

[graceanne]

I have lots of friends that I respect, I just don't fuck any of them. I have no issues with seperating my sexual needs from my intellectual and emotional ones.

Actually, a few months ago I was fucking a pretty solid chick, but she was married to an ex-Israeli bombs specialist so that just wasn't going to work out.

I'm not attacking you. I'm just making a point. But frankly, I caught htat you aren't looking for a permanent relationship, so it's moot point. I'm just gonna say real quick, for when you are, that you won't be happy until you find a woman who satisfies your brain and your dick. Cause sex won't sustain a relationship.

 

[Netzach]

You know, this thread really turned into something totally different than what I started it on.

I have to rethink personal avs, they may be cramping my style.

Yeah, it sure did turn into dating advice for the disaffected. But I've liked a lot of what's said.

If that means we don't get to perv on you with a sword though, I say that's a bad thing.

I don't think it's so much about you looking *for* a submissive you can respect, but questioning how you are looking *at* the idea of submission, of people who are not striving to move up in the hirearchies if they are not on top, am I off?

I think a lot of it is social programming, we are all taught to value power for a lot of good reasons, actually. However our definitions of power are pretty lame. A great big house, people to yell at at work, hot wife with a perfect baby and girls on the side, and a good credit rating, new garage in the car every year. Yep.

People who eschew personal power for security make me ill, too. Absolutely makes my skin crawl on a social level. This is the politically incorrect world of sex however, love and war, it's true. But I don't define personal power as the same thing as social power-- this more personal individual kind of power has to do with fulfillment and your willingness to fight for it and face derision for it, it can require energy because it goes against the grain of what the society wants for you.

If you think about it, Stonewall could be described as "the willingness of people to riot for the right to get fucked up the butt and not live a life of quiet desperation because of it." (Obviously it's not just that, that's a totally non pc gross oversimplification to make my point, but I think my point's made.)

But you're failing to grasp how someone can feel empowered by letting someone else make decisions for them, tell them what to do.

All I can say is that the drives of someone feeling this passion are comparable to the drives of someone like you or me who prefers to control and to play with our control. They compel this person along and the individual has to navigate all the conflict and all the confusion and come up to a point where they don't care about the inherent conflicts that tell them "don't be this way, it's pussy, it's wrong, you're a slut, you're weak" and either come to the conclusion that they aren't that after all, or in some cases, they ARE all that and the world can suck it up.

Both of these are powerful stances.

There's also a lot of internal struggle in almost any kind of lifestyle, ongoing submission that I've seen. I think we don't get to hear about this very much in detail, largely because of the protocols we've set up in the comunity traditionally- if a slave or sub is "not happy" they are encouraged, usually, to shut up, not air dirty laundry, not make their Master look bad, hell, I'd be pissed if M was whining about his travails at an event or party!

In an online forum, we see a lot of the superficial either a) whining of newbies or b) uncertainty of newbies but we don't really have insight into some of the internal dissonance experienced subs/slaves have.

It's something we tend to be quiet about. We don't talk directly about our worst, least obedient, least functional moments.

In the leather community, some of the most dedicated slaves I know do NOT see themselves as inherently submissive people at all, but people who are called to service like a clergyman is called to his role.

They experience a great deal of struggle in the process of training and learning what they need to know, at times, giving up control is always a struggle, is never easy, is not a natural gesture and sometimes never becomes that - but they have a Top they are so inspired by, so moved by, and for whom they have so much admiration that service is the only sane option for them, they can't see themselves wanting anything else for that person. This is the kind of relationship I'm personally drawn to most, largely because I'm an egomaniac and I think it reflects best on me

It's not a form of service that gets talked about online, we *really* love our essentialist definitions as a community and our insistence that subs and Doms are always born and never made. I think the puzzle is very complex, personally, and there are going to be anomalies, like slaves who are incredibly dominant and driven people who have a huge boner and torch for one particular person, or Dominants who view their care of their charge as a form of service.

I think where I'm going with this, is that once I saw these anomalies in action and once I began to understand the struggle involved in submitting and the dissonance with social mores, the more I realized, well, fuck, I don't have the patience and cojones for THAT. Basically, that's it in a nutshell.

I'm glad as hell there are submissives and slaves, and people in general willing to give it up for me, because I would never in a million years be able to cope with me. I do periodically self-assess and say to myself "would you do that for you, are you being a prick or are you being the kind of person who deserves service" but I mean in an ongoing way, I'd drive myself nuts. I don't have it in me, so I admire those who do.

 

[Marquis]

the second...the first was bull
xx

For the same reason I act real niggerish when a white cop pulls me over.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Originally posted by Netzach


There's also a lot of internal struggle in almost any kind of lifestyle, ongoing submission that I've seen. I think we don't get to hear about this very much in detail, largely because of the protocols we've set up in the comunity traditionally- if a slave or sub is "not happy" they are encouraged, usually, to shut up, not air dirty laundry, not make their Master look bad, hell, I'd be pissed if M was whining about his travails at an event or party!

In an online forum, we see a lot of the superficial either a) whining of newbies or b) uncertainty of newbies but we don't really have insight into some of the internal dissonance experienced subs/slaves have.

It's something we tend to be quiet about. We don't talk directly about our worst, least obedient, least functional moments.

This is very true IMHO Netzach. I think it is more difficult, inappropriate perhaps to raise the inner struggles of both Dom/me and sub/slave in a forum where it is open and frequented by those from both sides of the whip. Theoretically it could be good in that it could offer the perspective of the other in a less emotionally attached way to those who are going through such quagmires, but unfortunately it also can become an area for targeting and putting down the ones who will not play the game of perfection.

I am fortunate I have another place to go which is restricted to the submissive side of the equation where anything and everything can be put out there for discussion, ideas, perceptions, or just sharing a bad day and letting off some steam. It does help get through the moments which sometimes feel they will never end and to know you are not alone in having those human frailties despite what head or heart may tell you.

Catalina

 

[Marquis]

Yeah, it sure did turn into dating advice for the disaffected. But I've liked a lot of what's said.

If that means we don't get to perv on you with a sword though, I say that's a bad thing.

Well, I don't mind being perved on; but I don't like my words being filtered through what someone thinks they know about me from a 150x150 pixel avatar and I don't like the fact that I have gotten more pms about how I look than what I say.

Not that being leched upon doesn't have its place, and I may put up a pic thread eventually, but I'm going to keep my avs abstract for a while. In fact, if anyone knows of a picture that they think would make a good av for me, I'd love to see it.

I don't think it's so much about you looking *for* a submissive you can respect, but questioning how you are looking *at* the idea of submission, of people who are not striving to move up in the hirearchies if they are not on top, am I off?

I guess not.

I think a lot of it is social programming, we are all taught to value power for a lot of good reasons, actually. However our definitions of power are pretty lame. A great big house, people to yell at at work, hot wife with a perfect baby and girls on the side, and a good credit rating, new garage in the car every year. Yep.

Damn, you just described all my goals. Am I that shallow?

People who eschew personal power for security make me ill, too. Absolutely makes my skin crawl on a social level. This is the politically incorrect world of sex however, love and war, it's true. But I don't define personal power as the same thing as social power-- this more personal individual kind of power has to do with fulfillment and your willingness to fight for it and face derision for it, it can require energy because it goes against the grain of what the society wants for you.

If you think about it, Stonewall could be described as "the willingness of people to riot for the right to get fucked up the butt and not live a life of quiet desperation because of it." (Obviously it's not just that, that's a totally non pc gross oversimplification to make my point, but I think my point's made.)

I'm not familiar with stonewall.

But you're failing to grasp how someone can feel empowered by letting someone else make decisions for them, tell them what to do.

All I can say is that the drives of someone feeling this passion are comparable to the drives of someone like you or me who prefers to control and to play with our control. They compel this person along and the individual has to navigate all the conflict and all the confusion and come up to a point where they don't care about the inherent conflicts that tell them "don't be this way, it's pussy, it's wrong, you're a slut, you're weak" and either come to the conclusion that they aren't that after all, or in some cases, they ARE all that and the world can suck it up.

Both of these are powerful stances.

OK, I can see that.

There's also a lot of internal struggle in almost any kind of lifestyle, ongoing submission that I've seen. I think we don't get to hear about this very much in detail, largely because of the protocols we've set up in the comunity traditionally- if a slave or sub is "not happy" they are encouraged, usually, to shut up, not air dirty laundry, not make their Master look bad, hell, I'd be pissed if M was whining about his travails at an event or party!

In an online forum, we see a lot of the superficial either a) whining of newbies or b) uncertainty of newbies but we don't really have insight into some of the internal dissonance experienced subs/slaves have.

It's something we tend to be quiet about. We don't talk directly about our worst, least obedient, least functional moments.

In the leather community, some of the most dedicated slaves I know do NOT see themselves as inherently submissive people at all, but people who are called to service like a clergyman is called to his role.

They experience a great deal of struggle in the process of training and learning what they need to know, at times, giving up control is always a struggle, is never easy, is not a natural gesture and sometimes never becomes that - but they have a Top they are so inspired by, so moved by, and for whom they have so much admiration that service is the only sane option for them, they can't see themselves wanting anything else for that person. This is the kind of relationship I'm personally drawn to most, largely because I'm an egomaniac and I think it reflects best on me

It's not a form of service that gets talked about online, we *really* love our essentialist definitions as a community and our insistence that subs and Doms are always born and never made. I think the puzzle is very complex, personally, and there are going to be anomalies, like slaves who are incredibly dominant and driven people who have a huge boner and torch for one particular person, or Dominants who view their care of their charge as a form of service.

Yeah, I figured I was missing a few pieces of the puzzle. I wonder how my perceptions will change once I learn more.

I think where I'm going with this, is that once I saw these anomalies in action and once I began to understand the struggle involved in submitting and the dissonance with social mores, the more I realized, well, fuck, I don't have the patience and cojones for THAT. Basically, that's it in a nutshell.

I'm glad as hell there are submissives and slaves, and people in general willing to give it up for me, because I would never in a million years be able to cope with me. I do periodically self-assess and say to myself "would you do that for you, are you being a prick or are you being the kind of person who deserves service" but I mean in an ongoing way, I'd drive myself nuts. I don't have it in me, so I admire those who do.

LOL, I know what you mean. I guess one of the main reasons I recognize my need for a sub is because I don't see how anyone other than that could put up with someone as hypersexual, controlling or volatile as myself.

 

[Netzach]

Well, I don't mind being perved on; but I don't like my words being filtered through what someone thinks they know about me from a 150x150 pixel avatar and I don't like the fact that I have gotten more pms about how I look than what I say.

Not that being leched upon doesn't have its place, and I may put up a pic thread eventually, but I'm going to keep my avs abstract for a while. In fact, if anyone knows of a picture that they think would make a good av for me, I'd love to see it.

I can respect that, I haven't been as excited about posting my entire image for similar reasons, not that I was swamped with PM's at all.





Damn, you just described all my goals. Am I that shallow?


Well, we all have to eat and I'd like something resembling middle class normalcy myself, but the usual price is too high, if you ask me, I shall have to find the alternate route. To each his own.




I'm not familiar with stonewall.
[/B] To oversimplify again, in the early 70's in NYC you could be arrested for going to a gay bar and the bars were a favorite target for police raids and (other) extortionists. The police raided a small bar which stands to this day, the Stonewall Inn, and this time the drag queens and other patrons, mostly drag queens, took to the streets, throwing rocks and raising hell in I believe a 3 day(?) riot that stymied the lower manhattan NYPD. After this, policies on gay bars were pretty changed it's considered a pivotal moment of GLBT history, enough bullshit is enough.

So, there are people who most people assume to be bottoms, pussy, punk, etc. in a sexual and social sense doing something radically assertive.

 

[LunarKitten]

I wouldn't know where to start. I want to get out to a fetish club eventually, but I don't have anyone to go with.

Ah, but an educational group is different from a fetish club. Fetish clubs still attract the "sexpots", the educational groups do to some extent, but they don't usually stay around too long. They put on educational workshops, with the occasional "social" aka play party - where you'll get to see the real stuff in action. I've attended fetish events here in Charlotte and gone to the "VIP ROOM" They were pretty much just "playing" at BDSM to get their jollies.

And ya know, if bedroom bondage is what someone is into, that's ok too. But you're not going to learn anything from that kind of a show. And since John and Libby Warren are living down in Florida now, they'll probably be doing a lot of the local groups around them (they are a fanastic workshop on any topic, I strongly recommend anyone who gets the chance to go see them! But watch out for John, he's such a superman sadist )

Anywho...I think I wandered ten thousand miles from the point I planned to make lol

If you join a local group who strongly leans towards education of it's members, you'll get the chance to meet and interact with others who are not just about who is getting laid by whom. They will be able to teach you whatever you feel you need to be taught (they really love it when you ask them to show you something), you'll be able to meet both Tops and bottoms and get the feel of what the community is all about. You'll meet people you will come to respect (heck, some of my community are like a part of my own family after all these years), yup, even submissives!

 

[LunarKitten]

Why is this shit so fucking complicated.

I'm going to open up a night club called Black and Blue. Tops wear black, bottoms wear blue. The bouncers will make sure no gender or orientation outnumbers the other but other than that everyone can come in and drink and party like every other club.

It will play hip-hop.

Ah, but there is quiet a Dom shortage out there lol And never mind all the male subs looking for a Domme (they're in even bigger demand and shorter supply than male Doms ). Of course, I keep hearing Doms say the shortage is in submissives

Careful about the alcohol in the bar, though. Check your local laws, here in Charlotte you aren't supposed to have any genital flaggelation in a place that serves alcohol. (Though I hear some of the cops that plain cloth events don't enforce it - I think they may be afraid the event will be shut down and they couldn't volunteer for the duty anymore That or they're after bigger busts - like drug trafficing - that they let something that is "staged" pass under the radar.)

 

[Caitlynne]

All I can say is that the drives of someone feeling this passion are comparable to the drives of someone like you or me who prefers to control and to play with our control. They compel this person along and the individual has to navigate all the conflict and all the confusion and come up to a point where they don't care about the inherent conflicts that tell them "don't be this way, it's pussy, it's wrong, you're a slut, you're weak" and either come to the conclusion that they aren't that after all, or in some cases, they ARE all that and the world can suck it up.

Both of these are powerful stances.

That's it.... That's it exactly!!!

Cait gift wraps herself to be mailed to Netzach-- overnight express.

 

[Marquis]

Good shit as usual Netz.

Well, I don't mind being perved on; but I don't like my words being filtered through what someone thinks they know about me from a 150x150 pixel avatar and I don't like the fact that I have gotten more pms about how I look than what I say.

Not that being leched upon doesn't have its place, and I may put up a pic thread eventually, but I'm going to keep my avs abstract for a while. In fact, if anyone knows of a picture that they think would make a good av for me, I'd love to see it.

I can respect that, I haven't been as excited about posting my entire image for similar reasons, not that I was swamped with PM's at all.





Damn, you just described all my goals. Am I that shallow?


Well, we all have to eat and I'd like something resembling middle class normalcy myself, but the usual price is too high, if you ask me, I shall have to find the alternate route. To each his own.




I'm not familiar with stonewall.

To oversimplify again, in the early 70's in NYC you could be arrested for going to a gay bar and the bars were a favorite target for police raids and (other) extortionists. The police raided a small bar which stands to this day, the Stonewall Inn, and this time the drag queens and other patrons, mostly drag queens, took to the streets, throwing rocks and raising hell in I believe a 3 day(?) riot that stymied the lower manhattan NYPD. After this, policies on gay bars were pretty changed it's considered a pivotal moment of GLBT history, enough bullshit is enough.

So, there are people who most people assume to be bottoms, pussy, punk, etc. in a sexual and social sense doing something radically assertive. [/B]

 

[Marquis]

I should hit up some form of official kink soon, I'll keep people posted on how it goes.

Ah, but an educational group is different from a fetish club. Fetish clubs still attract the "sexpots", the educational groups do to some extent, but they don't usually stay around too long. They put on educational workshops, with the occasional "social" aka play party - where you'll get to see the real stuff in action. I've attended fetish events here in Charlotte and gone to the "VIP ROOM" They were pretty much just "playing" at BDSM to get their jollies.

And ya know, if bedroom bondage is what someone is into, that's ok too. But you're not going to learn anything from that kind of a show. And since John and Libby Warren are living down in Florida now, they'll probably be doing a lot of the local groups around them (they are a fanastic workshop on any topic, I strongly recommend anyone who gets the chance to go see them! But watch out for John, he's such a superman sadist )

Anywho...I think I wandered ten thousand miles from the point I planned to make lol

If you join a local group who strongly leans towards education of it's members, you'll get the chance to meet and interact with others who are not just about who is getting laid by whom. They will be able to teach you whatever you feel you need to be taught (they really love it when you ask them to show you something), you'll be able to meet both Tops and bottoms and get the feel of what the community is all about. You'll meet people you will come to respect (heck, some of my community are like a part of my own family after all these years), yup, even submissives!

 

[Guest]

Ah, but an educational group is different from a fetish club. Fetish clubs still attract the "sexpots", the educational groups do to some extent, but they don't usually stay around too long. They put on educational workshops, with the occasional "social" aka play party - where you'll get to see the real stuff in action. I've attended fetish events here in Charlotte and gone to the "VIP ROOM" They were pretty much just "playing" at BDSM to get their jollies.

ROFLMAO .....

Sorry for the digression ...But I just realized that I Have a REALLY good idea of where you are referring to........

And yeah ..that pretty much covers it...