Tops are from Mars, Bottoms are from Venus

[graceanne]

I love the way you put that, Cat.

I also stay home, and I think that normally it's a fair exchange. (Right now while I'm sick and useless it's not.) But the truth of the matter is that i worked out how much it would cost us for me to work outside the home, and in the end we'd loose and extra $200 a month in gas, babysitting, and housekeeping. Not to mention that Kenny would have to be doing more, because I'd need help with the housework. I totaly and fairly contribute to the household. I also contribue financially, by taking in my sisters kids to bring in a little extra money. This doesn't distract from my part of the deal.

Also agree that I'm not clinging to him as a providor. For one thing I could provide if I had to. Well, I could have before I got sick. Not to brag but I type at over 50 wpm with 99% accuracy. I could get a job in a lots of places just on those skills. But K wants me to stay home as much as I want to. He likes to come home to a dinner, he likes that our kids are being raised by us, he likes all this. I am fulfilling his needs as much as he's taking care of mine. This is a totally fair partnership. No, it's not what the world says is fair, but I don't care what they say. As long as both of us are happy, then I won't ever care what people I don't know think. And quite frankly, with divorce rates being what they are, it's obvious that the 'normal' way isn't working.

If things were different I would have been willing to be the breadwinner. We actually discussed it once when he had me apply for a data entry job with the post office. It would have made more money, and had better benefits, then his job at the time. We agreed at the time if I got it that he'd stay home with the kids, and I'd work. It wouldn't have changed a thing, he still would have been the boss, he still would have been the dominant partner. The only difference would have been in the distribution of duties. I would have had to find other ways to show my love for him, other ways to serve him.

 

[Marquis]

It takes time, and you are young and having fun while learning. Thats a good thing.

Just wanted to add that i am not putting you down for being young. I think it is great that you are 22 and know who you are and what you want....i know ppl 45+ who still dont have those answers.

'tsall good.

 

[RJMasters]

Re: .and this is not meant to be personal, just discussing varying views and perceptions

Certainly, and I acknowledge I have taken the statement out of context, but it reflects a lot of the thinking process I have seen in other threads. My statement came from this statement you made in the original post:

"They shake their tail feathers and Doms dance to their tune. It is no surprise that sex has become the focus of D/s rather than Dominance and submission. Too many Doms thinking with their cocks and not with their brains. In real life....women have this same attitude, in that they think the can manipulate or change a man.

The truth is...A woman(like your sisters or my daughters) have little choice in this world. They either will go to college and get a career in which to provide for themselves, or they will "cling" to another person to be provided for. That person then becomes their "provider".

You know as well as I do how the provision rule works. If one is being provided for, then there are expectations which come along with that provision.....

There is nothing more sacred or beautiful that a woman who seeks to honor, be devoted, serve and please the man who provides for her. Unfortunately, there are not many worthy Dom/mes of such honor, devotion, service or pleasure. "

In reading the full post there are good points which appear more realistic, but this part I have quoted above colour it all with a neediness motivation for submission. Perhaps it is just the way I am reading it and my long history involved with feminist issues, but it just seems the focus is on a submissive being in a position of need and that being their focus of why they submit and serve, not that they do so out of the need and desire to submit whether they receive anything in return or not.

For example, in reality if you bring it down to 'you work or you don't work and live off another', are men any more exempt from this 2 choice mode of thought...and does it have anything to do with D/s or is it just the way the world in general works? And because a woman lives in a traditional way as in her partner providing the financial income either in whole or the majority, and which you yourself seem to have said you favour as the way you like things, why does this necessarily equate to her 'clinging' to that partner so she is provided for? Doesn't she even in the traditional 50's image also provide a service in the home which otherwise would have to be done by the male himself or paid to be done by an outsider?

I don't see there are only 2 choices, nor do I see it is how one becomes a submissive, though I admit some project that needy image because I believe many are confused that is what submission is, being taken care of like a prince/ss. It is not rare to hear a submissive who is looking for a Dominant to talk about how they want a Dom/me so they no longer have to make decisions, do anything, take responsibility, have someone to take care of them etc....in which case the Dominant becomes the one as you say fulfilling the needs of the said submissive at the expense of their own needs....that IME is not how it works. I see it more as the submissive is in the role that generally provides the Dominant with what they require which in turn may satisfy some or all of the submissive's needs, but also may not.

In our relationship I have contributed and continue to in many ways including financially, but the focus of the relationship is not about him providing for me or providing me with my needs, though he does in the manner he chooses to and when he chooses to and on his terms. The focus is about my submitting and providing him with his needs, my informed choice to give up my power and control in deference to his Dominance, power, and control in a relationship where needs are mirrored and symbiotic, not borne out of a 'no choice' situation which sees one being a clinging parasitic vine to the other. The focus would not change even if I worked fulltime, employment and my income are irrelevant.

I sought this relationship for the D/s element I wanted to live as a reality the rest of my life, not as a means to be provided for....I could just as easily have become the submissive of a man who required me to earn the income, provide the necessities of life because while looking I never even raised the topic of who would provide the income or if we both would as it was not a priority to what I sought, nor does it seem to be his. I could also have found a lovely vanilla male (actually had plenty offer) who would have provided for my every whim, financial and otherwise, but that was not D/s. I also know submissives who have had to become the breadwinner and manager of the household because their Dominant has through illness, accident, or retirement no longer been able to do so, but the D/s dynamic does not change to then make the former submissive the new Dominant.

IME D/s is not about money or providing for a submissive's needs and I daresay if I had approached any of the prospective Dom's in my search with the idea they were going to provide for me in any form, I would have choked on the dust as they beat a hasty retreat. I am fortunate I am with One who cares for and does treat me from time to time, but it is not the basis for validity and authenticity in our or many other D/s relationships.

Catalina

Ok let's go through this.

First I would like to address the title of your post and compare that to the icon of choice by your name. Just because you say this isn't personal, doesn't make it so. You have gone out of your way to make it personal. Though from our last run in, In PM you still refuse to acknowledge that you took me out of context then too and called me "closed minded". However this time you use "narrow focus"(but well get to that in a moment). You further said that I could either accept that or not and it was my choice if I chose to read anything more into anything you posted in the future. Since that time I have not once responded to any of your posts, yet if you like I can pull a handful of posts you have made directed at me concerning my posts. So even when I attempt to not be confrontational with you, you feel the need to be so with me. Shakes head....let us continue...


You said:
-------
Certainly, and I acknowledge I have taken the statement out of context, but it reflects a lot of the thinking process I have seen in other threads. My statement came from this statement you made in the original post:
--------

Thank you for saying you took my comments out of context, however let's take a look at what you said.

--------
Originally posted by catalina_francisco
That is where I find a discrepency in RJ's theory...it has a narrow focus based on his personal preferences as he states and does not afford the submissive the respect of offering their submission honestly and without hidden agenda's, instead suggesting it is a matter of needing to be provided for in whatever way which drives them to their submission.

Catalina

--------

"RJ's theory...it has a narrow focus". This is clearly not taken out of context Catilina, this is clearly you saying 1. My thoughts and opinions are not based in reality or real life experience and they are nothing more than a theory and 2. My "theory" has a "narrow focus". Which sounds very much like "closed minded"

So I am going to clear a matter up for you about what is or is not my qualifications based on RL experience. Pay attention.

D/s, BDSM and Vanilla relationships share many things in common when it comes to "the Relationship". For example "TRUST" and "HONESTY". How long have you been in 24/7 BDSM relationship? Oh how could I forget since you remind us every third post you post to...about 2 years. Well I have been living 24/7 for 18 years in a D/s relationship! I run my household as a loving Dom and my wife submits to my leadership. I have 8 years of online learning about BDSM. I was a submissive for approx 3 months when I first came online as I needed to learn. Because I didn't even know at that time who I was, I took the advice of others and was put under an online Domme who was meantally abusive/offensive. I learned some very valuable lessons from that experience. From there I was an online Dom for 1 year. Spent two years learning and mentoring online, giving advice and helping people. I even wrote a guide that people refered new online Doms to learn about what it means to become a "Dom of Integrity & Character". I then was in a 2 year commited relationship online as a Dom(2 years!). I have help more people break cycles of destruction in their lives online than you can shake a stick at. I have taken submissives into to subspace online more times than you can count. I taught my second submissive how to come by command online(can we say webcam). I don't play at D/s. I take it very seriously, and have a deep respect for the BDSM lifestyle.

I think I am qualified to contribute to these boards without you trying dis-credit my opinions and thoughts. By your own admission you have stated that no one can define the BDSM experience for anyone else, and yet you feel compelled to validate your view of BDSM because you live in a 24/7. What makes you think that anything you do, in anyway makes your life and your expereinces any more valid than my life or my experiences? I am tired of hearing you trying to validate everything you say because you are in a 24/7, because frankly I am not impressed.


continuing on....


First of all it is not a theory. Its a fact of life. You either take care of your self or you "settle". For those who take care of themselves...they are the ones who are in the position to be able to have the luxury to choose, as need for food, clothing and home is not driving them, especially when children are involved. (insert Maslow's Hiearchy of needs here)

You have stated that you made a choice. You turned down certain Doms who would have provided for you everything...what you missed was that you had the luxuary of choice. Many don't. I don't know many women who ever aspire to become a street walking prostitute, yet it happens. I don't know many men who aspire to become bums, yet it happens.

My point is clear that "IF" you want to be in a position to be able to have the luxury to choose submission, then you have to be in a position to do it. Many are not, and that's not my fault, nor is it something I enjoy, but that's reality.

To be clear....when I spoke of a Dom being a provider....if you go back and read my original post, you will see that I clearly put (food, clothes, and home) in parenthisis and went out of my way to say that what is the PRIMARY responsibility of a Dom/me is to *provide* on an emotional, intelectual and physical basis. What is it they are to provide? Dominance to the best of their ability on each level. IT REALLY NEVER HAD TO DO WITH ANYTHING ABOUT WHO IS THE MONEY PROVIDER!

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that exactly what you stated were your reasons for "CHOOSING" to be with your current master over other Doms? Yes, that is what you said.

So the truth is, we pretty much agreed, until you took what I said out of context, slapped on your own view, and then tried to dis-credit what I said. This is not the first time, and I have to ask myself...why? Why did you do that?

As I pondered the answer I came to the conclusion it doesn't really matter, and I am too tired to be gracious about your rudeness.

I am going to join a local munch group online from my local area, and no longer be a negative disruptive force on this forum. I shall visit from time to time.

 

[Marquis]

wow, that's maybe true, but it's all pretty hard core domestic and heavy for someone who's 22 and playing the field a bit. I'm not getting the sense that there's a really profound search for a lifemate going on here, but I could be way off base with that guess.

Maybe your experience with sexually submissive girls is largely with girls who don't really want to be respected or worry about being respected... as you alluded to, the south florida club scene is not teeming with people looking for someone to honor and deeply admire.

Is it not possible that there might be a girl out there who has had extremely similar upbringing and tragedy to you, who has pulled herself up and figured her own shit out...imagine meeting a girl like this. Maybe you have. Maybe you have and you don't know it, or maybe you do know it.

Does your respect for her experience or independence fly out the window the minute you find out that she really gets turned on by being yanked by the hair and nailed to the wall with your dick while you call her names?

I think if she really had a lot in common with you, it wouldn't, not entirely.

Maybe it's a failure to see yourself in these other people, in non-bedroom ways? And maybe you don't have much in common with them, it's not a failing on your part.

I have dated women who are driven and success oriented, and I have great respect for them, but they tend not to be submissive. I think it may take longer for the alpha females to realize they might be into submission.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Oh RJ, the icon was a matter of time, something I don't have much of today, and the fact I am on a PC which is crashing continually which gets me in the mood to do just as the smilie did, crash and burn it. As I don't have a lot of time still this post will be short, and despite what I am sure you will feel, this is not personal but also does not support bending things to suit the moment.

I am surprised with your statement of having 18 years experience in a 24/7 D/s relationship, as in past PM conversations and posts you have made you have said you see your wife as submissive (not a submissive), and you did share with us your one spanking experience when you disclosed to her your feelings after which unless things have changed you said she declined to indulge your desires in D/s direction further but as you said, you would continue to think of her as submissive because of her personality and your relationship.

That is a far different relationship to what I speak of and to where there is consent made by both parties borne from informed knowledge of what the relationship is, not what one would like it to be. I will never advocate, and have said this before, that one should be free to put their partner or another in a role they have had no choice about, nor have any knowledge of being placed in. That is not consent, nor does it refelect making a choice to submit or dominate and the responsibilities involved.

I do not envy you your position, and can empathise, but wanting does not make a 24/7 D/s relationship suddenly become a fact because of 18 years of marriage, otherwise most of us would not have had to go through all the difficulties and heartache we have to reach our bliss. Without your wife's consent, and moreso the fact she has said she wants no part of this, it then becomes abuse IMHO both of her and her rights.

Catalina

Edited to add: To answer your question RJ, and sorry if it offends you I happen to mention our relationship in the context of topics discussed, we have been 24/7 over 2 years, almost 3 as in Master/slave committed, and prior to that we both had experience in the flesh, he more than I, and I also had prior to the face to face experience a couple of years of online learning, not role playing though. As to relationships being based on trust and honesty, I agree....we have no secrets from each other and can never imagine a time when we would need to thankfully.

 

[Marquis]

I know that you get sneary at me cause I am so careful not to be rude or hurt peoples feelings. I am not really worried about your opinion of me, cause I dont' know you well enough to care. But I think that with you that you are one of those people who see everything in black and white. Their's the right way to do it and the wrong way to do it. And so, of course, you are going to see your way as the right way to do it. That includes assertiveness. I guarantee that I can be assertive. Being a sub doesn't mean that I'm a floormat, or that I will put up with abuse. I won't, I just don't choose to make everything a battle.

I apologized for being sneary in the other thread, it was meant to be a casual comment, but I realize it came out wrong. You are correct about me not equivocating, but its no need for me to be a bully.

 

[Marquis]

my biggest concern...that one morning one of these women wakes up feeling ashamed enough of the night before to get him hauled down to the police station to have his reputation ruined.
we know that women will take this consensually but not everyone will believe that.
i think Marquis is playing a very dangerous game here....


oh, and i did observe that you were cold...but you admited to projecting that deliberately
xx

My legal representation is top notch.

J/K, but I doubt this will ever happen to me. I'm not superhardcorebdsm and it's not like I just flip like a light switch.

And actually, what I said was that I don't choose to open up to women like you because I don't see you as a beneficent person. In the future, I would appreciate it if you kept our private conversations private however, as I'm sure you would appreciate the same courtesy from me.

 

[Netzach]

I have dated women who are driven and success oriented, and I have great respect for them, but they tend not to be submissive. I think it may take longer for the alpha females to realize they might be into submission.

Probably, and that's consistent with everything cat said on the subject, which made a lot of sense to me.

 

[Netzach]

He what is wrong with Europe, and might I remind you that everyone says that New York is about the most European city in the US.

Francisco.

Heh.

NYC - nice place to visit wouldn't want to live there either.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Heh.

NYC - nice place to visit wouldn't want to live there either.

LOL, I loved NYC while there, but admittedly the time was limited, the area we saw confined mostly to Manhatten, and I probably had a clouded view based on waiting most of my life to visit it.

Catalina

 

[RJMasters]

Oh RJ, the icon was a matter of time, something I don't have much of today, and the fact I am on a PC which is crashing continually which gets me in the mood to do just as the smilie did, crash and burn it. As I don't have a lot of time still this post will be short, and despite what I am sure you will feel, this is not personal but also does not support bending things to suit the moment.

I am surprised with your statement of having 18 years experience in a 24/7 D/s relationship, as in past PM conversations and posts you have made you have said you see your wife as submissive (not a submissive), and you did share with us your one spanking experience when you disclosed to her your feelings after which unless things have changed you said she declined to indulge your desires in D/s direction further but as you said, you would continue to think of her as submissive because of her personality and your relationship.

That is a far different relationship to what I speak of and to where there is consent made by both parties borne from informed knowledge of what the relationship is, not what one would like it to be. I will never advocate, and have said this before, that one should be free to put their partner or another in a role they have had no choice about, nor have any knowledge of being placed in. That is not consent, nor does it refelect making a choice to submit or dominate and the responsibilities involved.

I do not envy you your position, and can empathise, but wanting does not make a 24/7 D/s relationship suddenly become a fact because of 18 years of marriage, otherwise most of us would not have had to go through all the difficulties and heartache we have to reach our bliss. Without your wife's consent, and moreso the fact she has said she wants no part of this, it then becomes abuse IMHO both of her and her rights.

Catalina

I think you are confusing kinks and fetishes with D/s. Just because my wife has limits when it comes to my sado wants, does not mean that we have not had power exchange as a Dominant man and a submissive woman as husband and wife...though again you missed the point of the post in that I said that whether you want to talk about D/s, BDSM or vanilla relationships...there are some things which they all share in common. Being in a relationship for 18 years does allow a person to know a few things.

Who are you to tell me that my view of my marriage does not fit or qualify to be considered D/s? If I ask my wife today if she considers herself to be submissive to me as my wife, she would say yes immediately.

Yea it sucks she has limits when it comes to kinks and fetishes, but I wasn't aware that these were mandatory for a relationship to be considered D/s.

Though I am sure her definition of submission differs from you...I would say that every submissive here has their own view or understanding of what submission is to them.

But since it doesn't meet your criteria, I guess I didn't learn anything from being married to a submissive woman for 18 yrs. Well maybe I did, but nothing you consider worth hear or anything which qualifies me as knowing anything about D/s.

Give it a rest.

 

[Marquis]

Well you two are just fighting like Tops and Bottoms over there.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Being in a relationship for 18 years does allow a person to know a few things.

LOL, what you do not realise is I was in a marriage for 7 years before the 16 years of self chosen single life...so yes I have a diversity of relationship experiences which have evolved over a long life.

Who are you to tell me that my view of my marriage does not fit or qualify to be considered D/s? If I ask my wife today if she considers herself to be submissive to me as my wife, she would say yes immediately.

The world is not D/s, it is a chosen state of some, being a willing wife, a submissive does not make IMO...and no I am not confusing fetish with D/s here or anywhere....actually not much into fetish. There is a difference in 'being submissive', 'being submissive as a wife' and 'being a submissive', but that is just my POV which like you I am entitled to hold.

Give it a rest.

Gladly, but don't mistake that as my submitting to you.

Catalina

 

[SkyBluAngelEyes]

<snip>I don't see submission as a sign of weekness. I was also raised to be self reliant and independant. To tell the truth it was very hard, and is still very hard, for me to submit, to trust someone that much. It quite often takes a lot of strenght of will not to try and take control. If K and I'd talked this over 7 years ago when we'd married, I'd have turned him down flat. I would not have been able to give him that much control, the idea would have scared the shit out of me. So, it takes great strength of will to follow this path.

I'm also not going to say that it's not selfishly motivated. I get a lot pleasure and contentment, and fulfillment out of my submission to him. And I'm not talking about the sex, cause that - while great- has nothing to do with it. I get my pleasure out making him happy in everything. I don't get a sexual thrill out of getting up in the morning and making him breakfast, or from washing and folding his laundry. I do it cause it makes his life easier, and it makes him happy. It's a wonderful feeling to know that I've pleased him. Even if I get nothing else out of it, that's enough.

I know that you get sneary at me cause I am so careful not to be rude or hurt peoples feelings. I am not really worried about your opinion of me, cause I dont' know you well enough to care. But I think that with you that you are one of those people who see everything in black and white. Their's the right way to do it and the wrong way to do it. And so, of course, you are going to see your way as the right way to do it. That includes assertiveness. I guarantee that I can be assertive. Being a sub doesn't mean that I'm a floormat, or that I will put up with abuse. I won't, I just don't choose to make everything a battle.

I think that someone earlier (I can't remember who it was that said it) is right, that part of the reason you can't respect a sub, is because of where you are looking for them.

For a relationship to work, IMO, the people have to be thinking of someone other than themselves. You need to be thinking of her welfare and her of yours. This is even more so in a D/s relationship. For a D/s relationship I need to be thinking of my dom's needs, even as he is thinking of mine (not just sexually). Otherwise it's not balanced, it's lopsided, and someone is going to be unhappy. It's not all about me and it's not all about him.

If you want this kind of relationship, then you need to start looking for women outside of clubs and bars. People who go there are not looking for a caring relationship, they are looking to get laid, which is in itself a selfish thing to be looking for. They aren't really that interested in making you happy, as long as they get what they want. On the other hand, you aren't realy looking to make them happy, as long as you get laid, so it's not fair of you to expect more from them than you are willing to give. Is it?

Graceanne, you said this very well, and without reading other succeeding posts, I totally agree.

However, all of my thoughts are jumbled and they are just going to spill out here in no certain order.

When I submit, I do require things of my PYL. I require safety, and security. I admit I admire a PYL that has respect for their sub.

Since I've only had one PYL, and I know He respected me and loved me, it was a very symbiotic relationship, as it was not all about sex. I trusted Him completely, with every fiber of my body, I trusted Him with my life. I wanted to please Him. I wanted to make His life easier. We were both professional people. He did not support me, nor did He make my everyday decisions.
I viewed my submission as a gift that I gave to Him. I'm pretty sure that any pyl would view theirs as a gift. To give yourself completely to another is such a gift and it shouldn't be overlooked as something trite.

I am not submissive in the professional world. I work with incarcerated juveniles. What if I let my submissiveness enter into my professional life? I would not last very long. One of my colleagues is not the most professional nurse I've ever worked with and I don't mind telling her so.

{/rant}

 

[RJMasters]

Edited to add: To answer your question RJ, and sorry if it offends you I happen to mention our relationship in the context of topics discussed, we have been 24/7 over 2 years, almost 3 as in Master/slave committed, and prior to that we both had experience in the flesh, he more than I, and I also had prior to the face to face experience a couple of years of online learning, not role playing though. As to relationships being based on trust and honesty, I agree....we have no secrets from each other and can never imagine a time when we would need to thankfully.

Its not so much that you mention it, its how you mention it with the intent to imply that others who are not in a 24/7 don't count.
Kinda like your second post on this thread for example and
Ya know kinda like how potray things that I say, by claiming I am closed minded, and narrow focused...and my thoughts and opinions are just "theories".

 

[catalina_francisco]

Well you two are just fighting like Tops and Bottoms over there.

LOL, never!!... just discussing what is clearly 2 varying points of view and experiences of D/s which is what we are all here for hopefully. When we all agree 100%, then it is time to get worried because there won't be any point in communicating with each other anymore.

Catalina

 

[rosco rathbone]

Sooner or later, you'll probably meet a "submissive" woman who is your emotional and mental match. Those people can sneak up on you. Look out!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Its not so much that you mention it, its how you mention it with the intent to imply that others who are not in a 24/7 don't count.
Kinda like your second post on this thread for example and
Ya know kinda like how potray things that I say, by claiming I am closed minded, and narrow focused...and my thoughts and opinions are just "theories".

You Know RJ, I am getting real tired of this cat and dog fight, no pun intended. Nobody has said that you are a less worthy dominant or practitioner of BDSM, but yes you have a narrow focus which is not the same as saying you are narrow minded.

I have a narrow focus, my focus is that of a 24/7 Dominant, one who has been actively in the lifestyle since he was 24, 13 years by now, and who has only experienced real life and not online and one that is very heavy into Sadism, D/s and TPE. Yes my focus is narrow because of my experiences and tastes and I often tend to forget the experiences and lifestyles of others especially those of onliners since they come from a world which is completely alien to me.

I tend not to get agitated by the sometimes heated discussions on the board. I thought that you had the same maturity; this is an online forum RJ. We discuss, we agree and disagree here. The whole intention of BDSM talk is to exchange ideas, to show different opinions and by the exchange of ideas and comments to be able to form an opinion.

Catalina and I are going to drop this discussion with you, we are not going to take it to PM or anywhere else, to continue will lead nowhere.

Francisco

 

[Netzach]

Re: Re: .and this is not meant to be personal, just discussing varying views and perc

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this, but I have to beg to differ here...

First of all it is not a theory. Its a fact of life. You either take care of your self or you "settle". For those who take care of themselves...they are the ones who are in the position to be able to have the luxury to choose, as need for food, clothing and home is not driving them, especially when children are involved. (insert Maslow's Hiearchy of needs here)

You have stated that you made a choice. You turned down certain Doms who would have provided for you everything...what you missed was that you had the luxuary of choice. Many don't. I don't know many women who ever aspire to become a street walking prostitute, yet it happens. I don't know many men who aspire to become bums, yet it happens.

My point is clear that "IF" you want to be in a position to be able to have the luxury to choose submission, then you have to be in a position to do it. Many are not, and that's not my fault, nor is it something I enjoy, but that's reality.



Are you equating marriage or being dependent on a man economically with submission? Because neither of those things necessarily are. I've seen lots of women with access to their mans' money with anything but a submissive temprement.

If it's BDSM/D/s submission it is chosen. Either you feel like you are inherently born a sub and you're fulfilling your dreams by a specific choice of who to give yourself to, or you feel like you are choosing to abdicate responsibility for making decisions in the sack, or you have some personal theory that falls in the middle, but there's no way that I can agree there are a lot of sad sack women wandering in desperation into BDSM D/s relationships. Bad mariages, yes. Abuseive relationships, yes. Good marriages, yes. But SM requires a kind of eyes-open awareness, as I personally define it, consent isn't just lack of non-consent.

 

[Marquis]

Sooner or later, you'll probably meet a "submissive" woman who is your emotional and mental match. Those people can sneak up on you. Look out!

Uncle Rosco's back!

Word on the street is that you've been having some computer trouble. Glad to see you're alive and kicking.

 

[Netzach]

Sooner or later, you'll probably meet a "submissive" woman who is your emotional and mental match. Those people can sneak up on you. Look out!

Well hi, and screw you, Mister, again saying in one elegant sentence what I'll ponitificate for paragraphs.

 

[graceanne]

I apologized for being sneary in the other thread, it was meant to be a casual comment, but I realize it came out wrong. You are correct about me not equivocating, but its no need for me to be a bully.

It's ok. It takes all kinds, including people who don't equivocate. If everyone was like me then nothing would ever get said. If everyone was like you then their wouldn't be people to talk to when you just need an ear. I just felt that you looked down on me for being like I am. I see that I was wrong.

 

[RJMasters]

Re: Re: Re: .and this is not meant to be personal, just discussing varying views and perc

I'm not trying to get in the middle of this, but I have to beg to differ here...

First of all it is not a theory. Its a fact of life. You either take care of your self or you "settle". For those who take care of themselves...they are the ones who are in the position to be able to have the luxury to choose, as need for food, clothing and home is not driving them, especially when children are involved. (insert Maslow's Hiearchy of needs here)

You have stated that you made a choice. You turned down certain Doms who would have provided for you everything...what you missed was that you had the luxuary of choice. Many don't. I don't know many women who ever aspire to become a street walking prostitute, yet it happens. I don't know many men who aspire to become bums, yet it happens.

My point is clear that "IF" you want to be in a position to be able to have the luxury to choose submission, then you have to be in a position to do it. Many are not, and that's not my fault, nor is it something I enjoy, but that's reality.



Are you equating marriage or being dependent on a man economically with submission? Because neither of those things necessarily are. I've seen lots of women with access to their mans' money with anything but a submissive temprement.

No I am not...that is what Cat took out of context and then try to infer I said that. I never did. There are two seperate points being made. Go back and read the original post. One point has to with a Dominate being a provider...not of money and such as much as providing for their submissive on a mental, emotional, and physical level. The goal of this point was to get Marquis to think about what it means on a deeper level to be a Dominant...SO as to also then see deeper when looking at submissives. THE CONVERSATION revolves around why there should exist mutual RESPECT given to both involved.

If it's BDSM/D/s submission it is chosen. Either you feel like you are inherently born a sub and you're fulfilling your dreams by a specific choice of who to give yourself to, or you feel like you are choosing to abdicate responsibility for making decisions in the sack, or you have some personal theory that falls in the middle, but there's no way that I can agree there are a lot of sad sack women wandering in desperation into BDSM D/s relationships. Bad mariages, yes. Abuseive relationships, yes. Good marriages, yes. But SM requires a kind of eyes-open awareness, as I personally define it, consent isn't just lack of non-consent.

Of course SM requires consent, but SM is not part of the picture here, as that has been established as a hard limit. Again this is another twisted point...the discussion is about weather if its possible that a dominant man and a submissive woman gets married, when she takes a vow to love honor cherish and obey, and she actually takes that seriously, is that not to some extent a form of D/s? To complicate it further, just vanilla sex. The point being made during this was about whether I have anything worth contributing being that though my marriage is not the text book version of D/s but still non the less I run my home as a Loving Dom and my wife would agree that she is submissive to me her husband, would that in any way give me any RL experience after 18 years about what makes a relationship work, as well as know a little something about PE between a Dominant and a Submissive.

Other than that...I can't defend something I never intended to say, and if I communicated my points unclearly I am sorry.

 

[RJMasters]

You Know RJ, I am getting real tired of this cat and dog fight, no pun intended. Nobody has said that you are a less worthy dominant or practitioner of BDSM, but yes you have a narrow focus which is not the same as saying you are narrow minded.

I have a narrow focus, my focus is that of a 24/7 Dominant, one who has been actively in the lifestyle since he was 24, 13 years by now, and who has only experienced real life and not online and one that is very heavy into Sadism, D/s and TPE. Yes my focus is narrow because of my experiences and tastes and I often tend to forget the experiences and lifestyles of others especially those of onliners since they come from a world which is completely alien to me.

I tend not to get agitated by the sometimes heated discussions on the board. I thought that you had the same maturity; this is an online forum RJ. We discuss, we agree and disagree here. The whole intention of BDSM talk is to exchange ideas, to show different opinions and by the exchange of ideas and comments to be able to form an opinion.

Catalina and I are going to drop this discussion with you, we are not going to take it to PM or anywhere else, to continue will lead nowhere.

Francisco

You Know Francisco I really am tired of it too...so why do you allow Cat to continue to do it. We arrived at this moment in time because of her. After the first incident I never posted or responded to anything Cat posted on the boards.

In fact I so did not want another confrontation I came to you in PM about this Dom to Dom(as I thought that would be the MATURE thing to do) as I didn't think it was my position to correct another man's sub for being rude. What was your response to me?

Indifference...you don't want to get involved as a referee. You agree she took me out of context in the PM yet you refuse to see what she did as rude...and classify it under "disagreement"

Sorry, yes we had a disagreement, but only because of Cat's misunderstanding, which doesn't excuse the way she was rude to me. Nor how she again tried to dis-credit me.

How about when she re-posted and admitted she took me out of context...she couldn't simply say, I took you out of context because I misunderstood, sorry RJ for what happened. Nope couldn't do that, she admitted she took me out of context and just keep on going.

I guess common curteousy not part of being mature here?

And you sit there shocked as to why I am so pissed off.

the cat dog fight is over...cuz I am waiting on my membership and then I am gone. This will be my last post about this or to either of you.

 

[incubus'_sub]

Well, a few thoughts for Marquis. I may be way off base, so say so if that's the case, but here goes.

From the first post I was wondering about your mother as our first ideas about relationships come from those we live with. It sounds like your mum had a really hard time. You respect & love her for her efforts & what it cost her in terms of her own self respect, but you hate & resent what you saw of how she was treated. You had to watch as the (money) provider forced your mum into a subservient position & she was powerless to prevent this. Quite rightly you would hate for your daughters or sisters to be forced into this position. The kicker is that despite your best efforts, you can't help feeling a loss of respect for your mother for ALLOWING it to happen to her & this loss of respect is colouring your view of all women you meet.

OK, that's very basic stuff. You can't help it, nor can you change it simply by understanding. You can choose to act differently, but your core of belief will probably remain the same. So, accept the way you think and adjust what you can change and that is the type of sub who will meet your real needs. I suspect these are mainly sexual rather than the big emotional thing at this stage.

RJ is a different type of Dom to you. His views suit him very well whereas I view his type of sub as subservient rather than submissive and this type will never suit you.

You need a sub like me, although where you're going to find a young one I don't know. Alpha type, very much in control of her own life & future, strong, opinionated, articulate & more than anything, definately not the needy type. I have no desire to serve. I get no pleasure from mundane daily tasks. I command & deserve respect for who I am. My submission is in the bedroom & even then it took a very strong Dom to gain it. But once there, it's what I crave & what I am.

This is where you will shine. I get the feeling that you will develop the stern & commanding demeanor necessary to dominate one such as me, but like many of us it will be, for you, a sexual rather than a spiritual thing. That would bore the pants off you and simply confirm what you now think, that some women just don't deserve your respect.