Gary Chambers
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Lauren Hynde said:
¿que?
Try the Gender Genie
- Thread starter Gary Chambers
- Start date
¿que?
Gary Chambers
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Pure said:
Yes Pure, I think that news was posted here once before, but I tend to forget it because it's not a mag I used to submit to. My stuff went to one of its competitors in the European market, which has since stopped buying fiction altogether. Penthouse does have a following, however, and it was a market leader so if Penthouse decided to stop buying fiction from males, then I have to pay attention to the possible trend.
TheOverlord
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Words: 3677
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)
Female Score: 4465
Male Score: 4093
The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!
hmmmmmmmmmm well looking at my AV and I KNOW that it's me.....i guess they were wrong....used my story in my sig line...
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)
Female Score: 4465
Male Score: 4093
The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!
hmmmmmmmmmm well looking at my AV and I KNOW that it's me.....i guess they were wrong....used my story in my sig line...
Icingsugar
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Ok, now I have run four of my short stories (2 erotic Lit-stories) through the thingy, and I think it's safe to say that I am...
...human.
Actually, it turned out pretty interresting. Thoce written from a female POV was clearly written by a woman according to the genie, and those from a male or gender-neutral POV was written by a man.
...human.
Actually, it turned out pretty interresting. Thoce written from a female POV was clearly written by a woman according to the genie, and those from a male or gender-neutral POV was written by a man.
Pure
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Hi Box, [and note to Icing]
You said,
My stuff went to one of its competitors in the European market, which has since stopped buying fiction altogether. Penthouse does have a following, however, and it was a market leader so if Penthouse decided to stop buying fiction from males, then I have to pay attention to the possible trend.
I understand. To reject 'male written fiction seems stupid, however. Even the female oriented or female run sites often allow males.
Maybe this unreceptiveness to males is a turnabout in history!
For it seems to me that the effect will simply be to make male writers use female pennames and female first person. This fits with a Penthouse style mainstream fantasy:
"Home coming," by Candy.
I didn't expect to find my brother, the one with killer good looks, home for Christmas. It's my first semester at Ohio State, and I've been so busy with studying communication and being a cheerleader that I didn't know if I'd go, myself. I wasn't that surprised when I made cheerleader--though I don't want to sound snobby-- for I've got a pair of 36 C's to die for. As one of my boyfriends nearly did. And my ass is hard, but very rounded from my days on the HS track team.
By the way, Box, I don't think your attempt to take account of the female pov will fool any reader as to sex of author. Most males' attempts are fairly transparent even if they 'fool' the automatic gender assessor.
I might add that I would expect Koppel type assessment to work best with professional writers, or those in that level, like LaurenH.
My opinion is that most amateurs are not sufficiently in control, and/or are unconsciously imitating crappy models, for their efforts to have the same characteristics as those of experienced or published writers of quality. I don't have evidence of this, aside from the fact that many lit. contributors do not know, e.g., what a possessive pronoun is; hence their control (conscious or not) of such (frequency,etc) is dubious.
J.
PS: Icing-- sounds like you may be doing some good work; hope to have a chance to look at it.
You said,
My stuff went to one of its competitors in the European market, which has since stopped buying fiction altogether. Penthouse does have a following, however, and it was a market leader so if Penthouse decided to stop buying fiction from males, then I have to pay attention to the possible trend.
I understand. To reject 'male written fiction seems stupid, however. Even the female oriented or female run sites often allow males.
Maybe this unreceptiveness to males is a turnabout in history!
For it seems to me that the effect will simply be to make male writers use female pennames and female first person. This fits with a Penthouse style mainstream fantasy:
"Home coming," by Candy.
I didn't expect to find my brother, the one with killer good looks, home for Christmas. It's my first semester at Ohio State, and I've been so busy with studying communication and being a cheerleader that I didn't know if I'd go, myself. I wasn't that surprised when I made cheerleader--though I don't want to sound snobby-- for I've got a pair of 36 C's to die for. As one of my boyfriends nearly did. And my ass is hard, but very rounded from my days on the HS track team.
By the way, Box, I don't think your attempt to take account of the female pov will fool any reader as to sex of author. Most males' attempts are fairly transparent even if they 'fool' the automatic gender assessor.
I might add that I would expect Koppel type assessment to work best with professional writers, or those in that level, like LaurenH.
My opinion is that most amateurs are not sufficiently in control, and/or are unconsciously imitating crappy models, for their efforts to have the same characteristics as those of experienced or published writers of quality. I don't have evidence of this, aside from the fact that many lit. contributors do not know, e.g., what a possessive pronoun is; hence their control (conscious or not) of such (frequency,etc) is dubious.
J.
PS: Icing-- sounds like you may be doing some good work; hope to have a chance to look at it.
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Black Tulip
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Pure said:
Pure,
What you say here does not explain why the gender is determined wrong when the writer is not consciously trying to write like a male or a female.
About the quality of writing. As a language teacher I have to disagree with you. I certainly know my way around grammar, at least in my own language.
But that is not determining the writing. Grammar is no more than a tool to create. And it's absolutely not necessary to use tools by giving them their proper name. If you have a good ear/eye you can spot repetitive words without knowing their grammatical function for instance.
Boxlicker101
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Pure said:
Pure, I did not say anything about what Penthouse was doing or not doing. I was quoting Gary and asking him if it is true. I have also read on a different thread about Penthouse going bankrupt, and I hope it is not so because I have hopes of selling them stories.
Boxlicker101
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Pure said:
By the way, Box, I don't think your attempt to take account of the female pov will fool any reader as to sex of author. Most males' attempts are fairly transparent even if they 'fool' the automatic gender assessor.
I might add that I would expect Koppel type assessment to work best with professional writers, or those in that level, like LaurenH.
My opinion is that most amateurs are not sufficiently in control, and/or are unconsciously imitating crappy models, for their efforts to have the same characteristics as those of experienced or published writers of quality. I don't have evidence of this, aside from the fact that many lit. contributors do not know, e.g., what a possessive pronoun is; hence their control (conscious or not) of such (frequency,etc) is dubious.
Pure, I am not trying to fool anybody. I try to write for women, and I always have, even before I started contributing to Lit. I have gotten some very complimentary feedback from some women about my stories. Some of them have even said they seem to be written by women, and I take this as a high compliment, but I am not trying to fool anybody. I write in the first person as a man. In my stories, I usually make frequent references to my cock and/or my balls, just in case somebody has the wrong impression. My bio is available to anybody who wants to read it.
I also think you should know and that you do know, that I have an excellent command of the English language, and I know good and well what a possessive pronoun is.
You also said, and this was copied and pasted from your own post:
Hi Box, [and note to Icing]
You said,
My stuff went to one of its competitors in the European market, which has since stopped buying fiction altogether. Penthouse does have a following, however, and it was a market leader so if Penthouse decided to stop buying fiction from males, then I have to pay attention to the possible trend.
I have never said that. Gary said that and you are attributing it to me. I respect Gary and I don't really mind being credited for what he says, but I do prefer to keep the record straight. This is twice in the last day or two that you have incorrectly attributed something to me.
By the way, Box, I don't think your attempt to take account of the female pov will fool any reader as to sex of author. Most males' attempts are fairly transparent even if they 'fool' the automatic gender assessor.
I might add that I would expect Koppel type assessment to work best with professional writers, or those in that level, like LaurenH.
My opinion is that most amateurs are not sufficiently in control, and/or are unconsciously imitating crappy models, for their efforts to have the same characteristics as those of experienced or published writers of quality. I don't have evidence of this, aside from the fact that many lit. contributors do not know, e.g., what a possessive pronoun is; hence their control (conscious or not) of such (frequency,etc) is dubious.
Pure, I am not trying to fool anybody. I try to write for women, and I always have, even before I started contributing to Lit. I have gotten some very complimentary feedback from some women about my stories. Some of them have even said they seem to be written by women, and I take this as a high compliment, but I am not trying to fool anybody. I write in the first person as a man. In my stories, I usually make frequent references to my cock and/or my balls, just in case somebody has the wrong impression. My bio is available to anybody who wants to read it.
I also think you should know and that you do know, that I have an excellent command of the English language, and I know good and well what a possessive pronoun is.
You also said, and this was copied and pasted from your own post:
Hi Box, [and note to Icing]
You said,
My stuff went to one of its competitors in the European market, which has since stopped buying fiction altogether. Penthouse does have a following, however, and it was a market leader so if Penthouse decided to stop buying fiction from males, then I have to pay attention to the possible trend.
I have never said that. Gary said that and you are attributing it to me. I respect Gary and I don't really mind being credited for what he says, but I do prefer to keep the record straight. This is twice in the last day or two that you have incorrectly attributed something to me.
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Dirty Slut
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Is this about the silliest thread you've ever seen?
Come to think of it, most of the threads here these days seem more, and more on the silly side to me.
DS
Come to think of it, most of the threads here these days seem more, and more on the silly side to me.
DS
Pure
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Hi Box,
Sorry, yes it was Gary who stated that Penthouse wasn't accepting male-written stories. You merely quoted him, but in your posting the quote and your comment were not well distinguished.
I have my doubts about the rationale for such a policy, in any case, and believe it may simply mean that pennames will be female for the male readers' delight.
J.
Sorry, yes it was Gary who stated that Penthouse wasn't accepting male-written stories. You merely quoted him, but in your posting the quote and your comment were not well distinguished.
I have my doubts about the rationale for such a policy, in any case, and believe it may simply mean that pennames will be female for the male readers' delight.
J.
Boxlicker101
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Hi, Pure.
I just looked over the post you quoted and I have to say that you are right. I should have better separated the quotation and my opinion better.
I tried to use the other test, the Koppel and got no result. The directions are simple so I think I did it right but I got no result. Maybe it can't tell. From looking at the description of the difference between male and female writing, I must say that I do write like a woman. I use a lot of pronouns and mention names frequently. I don't say "I licked a nipple"; I say "I licked her nipple". This seems natural to me. After all, her nipple is not some disembodied thing sitting there, it is a very lovely and enticing part of a woman, who has a name. I also don't use many numbers, either Arabic or written.
When I submitted stories to Penthouse, I used the pen name "George Boxlicker", which is the name I use in my stories, written in the first person. Maybe I should use the pen name "Georgia Dicklicker".
I just looked over the post you quoted and I have to say that you are right. I should have better separated the quotation and my opinion better.
I tried to use the other test, the Koppel and got no result. The directions are simple so I think I did it right but I got no result. Maybe it can't tell. From looking at the description of the difference between male and female writing, I must say that I do write like a woman. I use a lot of pronouns and mention names frequently. I don't say "I licked a nipple"; I say "I licked her nipple". This seems natural to me. After all, her nipple is not some disembodied thing sitting there, it is a very lovely and enticing part of a woman, who has a name. I also don't use many numbers, either Arabic or written.
When I submitted stories to Penthouse, I used the pen name "George Boxlicker", which is the name I use in my stories, written in the first person. Maybe I should use the pen name "Georgia Dicklicker".
Pure
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Hi Box,
I checked the link
http://www33.brinkster.com/echoloc8/Default.asp
You simply paste, then click "submit".
What then happens is that the text reappears-- maybe that threw you off, BUT underneath are the gender verdict and the numbers, i.e., totals and breakdown by key words.
J.
I checked the link
http://www33.brinkster.com/echoloc8/Default.asp
You simply paste, then click "submit".
What then happens is that the text reappears-- maybe that threw you off, BUT underneath are the gender verdict and the numbers, i.e., totals and breakdown by key words.
J.
Pure
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Hi DS,
(in case you're still around this 'silly' thread)
//All of my writing life I get told to use aggressive verbs, and so on, and that makes me Butch? Oh well, if you can't beat them I say join the orgy.
DS//
Probably you know this, but the Koppel algorithm does not even consider either verbs or nouns, but some almost content-free clues, that were found *generally* to work in the body of several hundred fiction works (not porn) considered. If you look at the last example I posted, it shows how the use of the word 'with' apparently tipped the balance in LH's case.
In case this seems weird, computer analysis of texts, as you may know, often looks at seeming minor details, be it in shakespearean or biblical scholarship, to assess 'authenticity'. In St. Paul's letters, for instance, are patterns in the use of essentially meaningless Greek 'particles' (vaguely analogous to our 'articles').
As far as I can see, the 'aggressivity' issue you mention and the 'purple prose' issue that interests me (excessive modifiers) makes no difference, but rather the 'personalizing' touch. A good many male fiction writers seeming use a more detached style, and impersonal markers(descriptors).
J.
(in case you're still around this 'silly' thread)
//All of my writing life I get told to use aggressive verbs, and so on, and that makes me Butch? Oh well, if you can't beat them I say join the orgy.
DS//
Probably you know this, but the Koppel algorithm does not even consider either verbs or nouns, but some almost content-free clues, that were found *generally* to work in the body of several hundred fiction works (not porn) considered. If you look at the last example I posted, it shows how the use of the word 'with' apparently tipped the balance in LH's case.
In case this seems weird, computer analysis of texts, as you may know, often looks at seeming minor details, be it in shakespearean or biblical scholarship, to assess 'authenticity'. In St. Paul's letters, for instance, are patterns in the use of essentially meaningless Greek 'particles' (vaguely analogous to our 'articles').
As far as I can see, the 'aggressivity' issue you mention and the 'purple prose' issue that interests me (excessive modifiers) makes no difference, but rather the 'personalizing' touch. A good many male fiction writers seeming use a more detached style, and impersonal markers(descriptors).
J.
Boxlicker101
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Pure said:
I pasted and submitted two different stories, both about 5,000 words. The text was in the box and the right side of the screen was blank. I was not able to scroll down like I had on the Gender Genie and I saw nothing under the text, except the word "Done", signifhying the test was complete.
I tend to use a lot of pronouns and repeat names and there is nothing detached about the way I write.
Boxlicker101
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Pure said:
I tried my shortest story, 1.695 words, and got no result. Then I tried one page of another story 585 words and got a "female" result. I don't think this is much good if it can't handle even a short story, though.
G
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Boxlicker101
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Boxlicker101 said:
I tried again breaking one of my stories into shorter parts. It always called me "Female". I tried my shortest story again, and it was unable to handle it so I tried a small part and then larger and larger parts. With 1,467 words, it said I was "Female" and with any more words than that, it didn't work. That seems to be the upper limit.
I can't help but think that with that much of a limitation, this tool isn't all that useful. I suppose you could break a story down into segments of 1,400 words each and test them but that seems like a lot of trouble to me, especially when the results are wrong, like they were here.
Since every test I have tried incorrectly says I am female, this doesn't seem too valid. Anybody who wants to can test more if my stories, but I suspect they will allways get the same answer.
Pure
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Hi Lime,
you said,
I copied four passages from my most recent story (third person POV) and took two sections descibing the male's thoughts/feelings and two sections from the female's. Oddly enough, the gender genie picked the characters' gender correctly, but obviously only 50% correct on the author.
Thus, the question might be do we alter our writing style depending on the gender of the character we're describing?
Comment: (no doubt giving this more thought than it deserves )
It's common for a limited 3rd person, esp limited, to somewhat take on the flavor of the character being described. It would be a little odder, imo, with an unlimited 3rd person, though not inconceivable. I am of course, assuming that the thoughts are not directly quoted.
I can imagine:
He thought, would his dick fit in. He wondered if God would disapprove; whether his wife would find out. It felt so good once he was in. He couldn't believe it.
continuing, shifting,
She was so pleased it was finally happening; it was like melting; her flesh felt like it was butter on a hot grill. She thought of how much he must love her and wasn't this the best way he could ever show it. She felt her center warm at the thought of this final consummation of everything she'd wanted.
---
Myself, I often prefer the first person so that the real character of the words and thoughts (of one person) can be directly demonstrated.
Not sure if this is what you meant or if it's worth the effort to think
J.
PS. I keep seeing ONLY the conclusion about gender, cited by several posters: For me the main interest in in the reasons, the counts. As with a theater review, the recommendation "See it!" or "Don't see it!" is less interesting than the reasons. I maintain that from the reasons, here, something can be learned.
you said,
I copied four passages from my most recent story (third person POV) and took two sections descibing the male's thoughts/feelings and two sections from the female's. Oddly enough, the gender genie picked the characters' gender correctly, but obviously only 50% correct on the author.
Thus, the question might be do we alter our writing style depending on the gender of the character we're describing?
Comment: (no doubt giving this more thought than it deserves
)It's common for a limited 3rd person, esp limited, to somewhat take on the flavor of the character being described. It would be a little odder, imo, with an unlimited 3rd person, though not inconceivable. I am of course, assuming that the thoughts are not directly quoted.
I can imagine:
He thought, would his dick fit in. He wondered if God would disapprove; whether his wife would find out. It felt so good once he was in. He couldn't believe it.
continuing, shifting,
She was so pleased it was finally happening; it was like melting; her flesh felt like it was butter on a hot grill. She thought of how much he must love her and wasn't this the best way he could ever show it. She felt her center warm at the thought of this final consummation of everything she'd wanted.
---
Myself, I often prefer the first person so that the real character of the words and thoughts (of one person) can be directly demonstrated.
Not sure if this is what you meant or if it's worth the effort to think
J.
PS. I keep seeing ONLY the conclusion about gender, cited by several posters: For me the main interest in in the reasons, the counts. As with a theater review, the recommendation "See it!" or "Don't see it!" is less interesting than the reasons. I maintain that from the reasons, here, something can be learned.
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Black Tulip
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am not!
I tried the first pages of three stories; verdict: 2 male and 1 female.
The story with POV 1 female, was called male.
I am not a male. Am not.
Very indignant
This seems very odd to me.
I tried the first pages of three stories; verdict: 2 male and 1 female.
The story with POV 1 female, was called male.
I am not a male. Am not.
Very indignantThis seems very odd to me.
Boxlicker101
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Hi, Pure.
Among other things, you said:
PS. I keep seeing ONLY the conclusion about gender, cited by several posters: For me the main interest in in the reasons, the counts. As with a theater review, the recommendation "See it!" or "Don't see it!" is less interesting than the reasons. I maintain that from the reasons, here, something can be learned.
My response:
I ran the Koppel test on most of my shortest story and got the result: 1,467 words. Female. 643. No explanation of what the last number means. There was also some kind of breakdown of various words in the passage, such as "the", "a", "other", etc. and it includes: Possessive pronouns 0. This is nonsense because I have many possessive pronouns there.
By the way, BT, judging from your AV, you are extremely female. I don't blame you for being indignant. I, on the other hand, like the idea of my writing being considered female rather than male like I actually am. When I started writing, I aimed the stories at women, and I try to write in a soft and gentle manner. It is strictly smut, no romance and no redeeming social qualities, but very caring and affectionate smut. I actually prefer having women read and enjoy my stories rather than men.
Among other things, you said:
PS. I keep seeing ONLY the conclusion about gender, cited by several posters: For me the main interest in in the reasons, the counts. As with a theater review, the recommendation "See it!" or "Don't see it!" is less interesting than the reasons. I maintain that from the reasons, here, something can be learned.
My response:
I ran the Koppel test on most of my shortest story and got the result: 1,467 words. Female. 643. No explanation of what the last number means. There was also some kind of breakdown of various words in the passage, such as "the", "a", "other", etc. and it includes: Possessive pronouns 0. This is nonsense because I have many possessive pronouns there.
By the way, BT, judging from your AV, you are extremely female.
I don't blame you for being indignant. I, on the other hand, like the idea of my writing being considered female rather than male like I actually am. When I started writing, I aimed the stories at women, and I try to write in a soft and gentle manner. It is strictly smut, no romance and no redeeming social qualities, but very caring and affectionate smut. I actually prefer having women read and enjoy my stories rather than men.
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Gary Chambers
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Boxlicker101 said:By the way, BT, judging from your AV, you are extremely female.
And a very exotic one at that.
Please don't be indignant, BT. It simply means your sexual persona empathises with men, making you even more exotic.
I, on the other hand, like the idea of my writing being considered female rather than male like I actually am. When I started writing, I aimed the stories at women, and I try to write in a soft and gentle manner. It is strictly smut, no romance and no redeeming social qualities, but very caring and affectionate smut. I actually prefer having women read and enjoy my stories rather than men.
Me too, which was why I started the thread. I suspect that writing like a woman attracts and pleases female readers. I'm happy that the Gender Genie can tell me when I've got it technically correct, because there's no way I would take time to apply the algorithm manually.
Black Tulip
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Thanks guys. I guess I'll just go on catering to the male gender then. 
Pure,
I ran the stories again for the statistics. Apparently I did not pick the same ones, because now they are all male.
Story from the winter contest:
(Pure's link)
Verdict: Male!
Words: 888; Total=892.
(Breakdown: Thes:60 As:28 Somes:3 Numbers:10 Its:6
Withs:16 s-Possessives:0 Possessive Pronouns:28 Fors:14 Nots:3)
(Gary's link)
Words: 874
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)
Female Score: 1475
Male Score: 875
The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!
First story on Lit:
(Pure)
Verdict: Male!
Words: 702; Total=838.
(Breakdown: Thes:51 As:15 Somes:3 Numbers:3 Its:1
Withs:3 s-Possessives:0 Possessive Pronouns:24 Fors:3 Nots:7)
(Gary)
Words: 673
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)
Female Score: 969
Male Score: 752
The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!
Story POV 1 female:
(Pure)
Verdict: Male!
Words: 1032; Total=1177.
(Breakdown: Thes:76 As:29 Somes:2 Numbers:2 Its:12
Withs:12 s-Possessives:0 Possessive Pronouns:33 Fors:6 Nots:11)
(Gary)
Words: 1029
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)
Female Score: 1295
Male Score: 1732
The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: male!
Pure,
I ran the stories again for the statistics. Apparently I did not pick the same ones, because now they are all male.
Story from the winter contest:
(Pure's link)
Verdict: Male!
Words: 888; Total=892.
(Breakdown: Thes:60 As:28 Somes:3 Numbers:10 Its:6
Withs:16 s-Possessives:0 Possessive Pronouns:28 Fors:14 Nots:3)
(Gary's link)
Words: 874
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)
Female Score: 1475
Male Score: 875
The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!
First story on Lit:
(Pure)
Verdict: Male!
Words: 702; Total=838.
(Breakdown: Thes:51 As:15 Somes:3 Numbers:3 Its:1
Withs:3 s-Possessives:0 Possessive Pronouns:24 Fors:3 Nots:7)
(Gary)
Words: 673
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)
Female Score: 969
Male Score: 752
The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: female!
Story POV 1 female:
(Pure)
Verdict: Male!
Words: 1032; Total=1177.
(Breakdown: Thes:76 As:29 Somes:2 Numbers:2 Its:12
Withs:12 s-Possessives:0 Possessive Pronouns:33 Fors:6 Nots:11)
(Gary)
Words: 1029
(NOTE: The genie works best on texts of more than 500 words.)
Female Score: 1295
Male Score: 1732
The Gender Genie thinks the author of this passage is: male!
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Boxlicker101
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This is interesting. I am actually being influenced by this thread. As I write, I am somewhat avoiding articles when I can use personal pronouns. I can't avoid them entirely, of course,m but instead of saying "I fondled her breast and licked THE nipple", I say I fondled her breast and licked HER nipple". A small matter, to be sure, but maybe an improvement. I still use a lot of adjectives but I am placing them differently and not stringing them together as much as I have in the past.
This is the result of the Koppel test on a passage of a story I hope to finish this week:
Verdict: Female!
Words: 923; Total=644.
(Breakdown: Thes:35 As:10 Somes:0 Numbers:6 Its:14
Withs:4 s-Possessives:1 Possessive Pronouns:0 Fors:2 Nots:0)
I don't know why it says "Possessive Pronouns: 0", because I use a lot of pronouns of all kinds.
This is the result of the Koppel test on a passage of a story I hope to finish this week:
Verdict: Female!
Words: 923; Total=644.
(Breakdown: Thes:35 As:10 Somes:0 Numbers:6 Its:14
Withs:4 s-Possessives:1 Possessive Pronouns:0 Fors:2 Nots:0)
I don't know why it says "Possessive Pronouns: 0", because I use a lot of pronouns of all kinds.
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