Can we talk about gender identity? Not transgender experience, just gender identity.

[MillieDynamite]

Yes, your 100% right.

Isn’t it a valuable question though? AG31 brought it up seeking an understanding from others while doing some self analysis. She got a lot of feedback that would not have happened if she hadn’t broached the subject. People being offended was part of that.


I was raised in a staunch Catholic household in my teens. In my experience, fear of tabling difficult questions reenforces prejudice and assumptions. Open and respectful discussion is clearest path to understanding, no?

 

[AlinaX]

I was referring to the political limitations that every era imposes. I am sure that, given free rein, science would provide some more conclusive and in-depth answers, both from the point of view of neuroscience, and psychology and sociology.

I was talking politics too - the danger of using an uncertain science to determine truth.

 

[AlexBailey]

Yes, your 100% right.

If only!

While I do understand how trauma caused by prejudice and lack of understanding can be emotionally triggering for me it doesn’t mean I intrinsically understand anyone else’s feelings about anything - that requires empathy and not everyone comes wired for empathy.

When someone lacks empathy it doesn’t necessarily mean they are malicious or a bad person who needs to be shouted out of a discussion. Reacting emotionally to someone who is genuinely trying to understand something that eludes them is counterproductive.

There is a condition known as empathy deficit disorder. A big part of my life experience is dealing with people who aren’t able to understand other people’s perspectives, getting upset with them has never helped.

https://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/blog/2020/07/10/what-is-empathy-disorder

“The disorder can be prevalent in certain types of mental health conditions too, such as narcissistic and antisocial personality disorders, bipolar disorder, borderline personality disorders, and people who are on the autistic spectrum”


When someone seems insensitive it’s often because they are. It’s tragic to me how many empathic people cannot extend their empathy or understanding to people who lack it.

Imagine trying to interpret someone’s emotional response when you’ve offended them due to your own lack of cognitive empathy.

“Cognitive empathy​

This refers to the capacity to place yourself in another person’s shoes. You can understand and relate to their emotions, alongside understanding their perspective and reactions to a certain situation. In possessing this ability, it allows us to respond in an appropriate, considerate way.”


From what I see AG31 has been identifying and reflecting on her own lack of cognitive empathy. In my book it’s a huge and valuable breakthrough that I only wish more people would seek and attain.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I was talking politics too - the danger of using an uncertain science to determine truth.

Absolutely agree on that one. These questions deserve to be answered with a good degree of certainty, which would undoubtedly require a long period of rigorous and unbiased research. And yeah, that is never going to happen as long as humans are humans.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

When someone seems insensitive it’s often because they are. It’s tragic to me how many empathic people cannot extend their empathy or understanding to people who lack it.

Imagine trying to interpret someone’s emotional response when you’ve offended them due to your own lack of cognitive empathy.
Cognitive empathy
This refers to the capacity to place yourself in another person’s shoes. You can understand and relate to their emotions, alongside understanding their perspective and reactions to a certain situation. In possessing this ability, it allows us to respond in an appropriate, considerate way.”

Having empathy is one thing (or 3 different things, if you distinguish cognitive, emotional, and compassionate empathy), but there's also differences between people's expected responses to empathetic feelings.

It's not true that autistic people don't feel empathy, for example - in many cases autistic people feel too much emotional empathy and struggle to control reactions - but the big difference is how they respond to the feeling. And both neurotypical and autistic people generally respond how *they* would like to be treated in that situation - but only the autists get interpreted as 'not having empathy' because they're in the minority.

Example: I had to tell my kids that a beloved relative had died. Son went 'oh' and then said nothing. When we got home, 20 minutes later, he went upstairs and then brought me his favourite cuddly toy and a blankie, rubbed my hand with the blanket, and wandered off again. No shortage of empathy there, just expressed differently. Over the next few days other family, teachers etc tried to be sympathetic to him - leading to distress because 'they keep telling me Granny's dead! I know! Stop talking about it!' It might be what made them feel better, but made him feel worse - yet many adults couldn't grasp the need to be quiet and process in his own time. With a blanket, because soft blankies make everything better.

If a child is yelling, "Get out of my personal space!" and adults are ignoring that, crowding round them being intimidating and obtrusive, it's kinda ironic that the kid is the one told they don't have empathy and communication skills... He can chat and communicate just fine - with other autistic people.

 

[EmilyMiller]

It's not true that autistic people don't feel empathy, for example - in many cases autistic people feel too much emotional empathy and struggle to control reactions - but the big difference is how they respond to the feeling. And both neurotypical and autistic people generally respond how *they* would like to be treated in that situation - but only the autists get interpreted as 'not having empathy' because they're in the minority.

Totally this

We are not Sheldon fucking Cooper. This is one of the biggest misconceptions about ASD.

Emily

 

[AlexBailey]

Having empathy is one thing (or 3 different things, if you distinguish cognitive, emotional, and compassionate empathy), but there's also differences between people's expected responses to empathetic feelings.

It's not true that autistic people don't feel empathy, for example - in many cases autistic people feel too much emotional empathy and struggle to control reactions - but the big difference is how they respond to the feeling. And both neurotypical and autistic people generally respond how *they* would like to be treated in that situation - but only the autists get interpreted as 'not having empathy' because they're in the minority.

Example: I had to tell my kids that a beloved relative had died. Son went 'oh' and then said nothing. When we got home, 20 minutes later, he went upstairs and then brought me his favourite cuddly toy and a blankie, rubbed my hand with the blanket, and wandered off again. No shortage of empathy there, just expressed differently. Over the next few days other family, teachers etc tried to be sympathetic to him - leading to distress because 'they keep telling me Granny's dead! I know! Stop talking about it!' It might be what made them feel better, but made him feel worse - yet many adults couldn't grasp the need to be quiet and process in his own time. With a blanket, because soft blankies make everything better.

If a child is yelling, "Get out of my personal space!" and adults are ignoring that, crowding round them being intimidating and obtrusive, it's kinda ironic that the kid is the one told they don't have empathy and communication skills... He can chat and communicate just fine - with other autistic people.

Yep. Just like with AG31’s “offensive” question.

Some people are getting caught up in how they feel about the topic and couldn’t care less that it hits her in a different way - demanding that she shut up rather than ask an honest question looking for perspective that she openly admits she doesn’t already have.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Totally this

We are not Sheldon fucking Cooper. This is one of the biggest misconceptions about ASD.

Emily

Sorry to make this all me, me, me…

I run a team. People in different countries, with different cultures. I believe I’m a good manager. My people tell me that they appreciate that I care about them as people, not just work units. Of the people who know about my ND, a common question is “how do you do the people-centric stuff?” My answer is generally that it’s pretty easy as I am after all a person. I think if anything I get a bit more involved in people’s problems than I ought. It is a relatively common ASD trait to feel responsible for everything.

Sorry, go back to talking among yourselves.

Emily

 

[MillieDynamite]

When I first came to live with my parents, Dad had an employee who suffered from Tourette Syndrome. He was a great kid, the son of a friend of my dad's, and very nice to me. But when things got stressful, you got the outburst, "Oh, boy, motherfucker, shit, oh man, fuck me," or something similar. Now customers don't like that. So, Dad, being the great person he is, pulled the kid into his office one night and told him he wouldn't be working concessions on busy nights but would get more hours and work during the day.

He made him the cleaner, put him in charge of receiving, taught him projection (we had film way back then), and how to work on the equipment. The theater was always clean, the projectors were always clean and maintained. He worked busy nights in the booth. And yes, since the booth was soundproof, his very occasional outburst bothered no one.

I don't know if Tourette's in associated with autism or nor not. But it's very difficult for those who have it. Far more so than those around them. It really upsets them when they can't control their words.

 

[AlexBailey]

When I first came to live with my parents, Dad had an employee who suffered from Tourette Syndrome. He was a great kid, the son of a friend of my dad's, and very nice to me. But when things got stress full, you got the outburst, "Oh, boy, motherfucker, shit, oh man, fuck me," or something similar. Now customers don't like that. So, Dad, being the great person he is, pulled the kid into his office one night and told him he wouldn't be working concessions on busy nights but would get more hours and work during the day.

He made him the cleaner, put him in charge of receiving, taught him projection (we had film way back then), and how to work on the equipment. The theater was always clean, the projectors were always clean and maintained. He worked busy nights in the booth. And yes, since the booth was soundproof, his very occasional outburst bothered no one.

I don't know if Tourette's in associated with autism or nor not. But it's very difficult for those who have it. Far more so than those around them. It really upsets them when they can't control their words.

My mother once equated my gender- nonconformity as a form of Tourette’s syndrome, saying how embarrassing I was for her and that if I cared for her and my stepfather that I would keep it to myself.

She was right from her perspective but I hated myself until I found accepting peers.

 

[MillieDynamite]

No, AlexBailey, I don't believe she was right as a mother from any perspective. You had real issues, and her response was don't talk about it. That is the opposite of helpful for you.

My mother once equated my gender- nonconformity as a form of Tourette’s syndrome, saying how embarrassing I was for her and that if I cared for her and my stepfather that I would keep it to myself.

She was right from her perspective but I hated myself until I found accepting peers.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Yeah, Tyler got way worse when he was tried. His father once said, "I don't even know where he learned those words. He's been saying them since he was five." Dad said, "Buddy, you and your wife curse like a building on fire. You do know where he heard them." He just nodded his head.

 

[AlexBailey]

No, AlexBailey, I don't believe she was right as a mother from any perspective. You had real issues, and her response was don't talk about it. That is the opposite of helpful for you.

Thanks Millie,
I’m still fucked up over my parent issues. My stepfather had a heart attack several years before he died and came out the other end a changed and intellectually impaired person. The upside was that his personality changed to be far more open minded and my mother has only continued along this trend. (Ever seen ‘Regarding Henry’?)

On the other hand I have so much unsettled feelings about how they were. I was one step from being sent to conversion therapy as a kid (if I’d actually been gay they would have) and they gave my inheritance to their church when my borderline personality disorder exwife told them I was still a deviant.

It’s a serious mind fuck that I understand how they thought they were doing what was best for me. They genuinely believed they were trying to save me from eternal damnation.

They have both since apologized and my mom even openly embraced my oldest son’s trans girlfriend.

Now my elderly mother calls me regularly and is grateful my adult children help her out and look after her - I struggle with it in my own mind but I’m grateful that we have a good relationship now.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I don't know if Tourette's in associated with autism or nor not. But it's very difficult for those who have it. Far more so than those around them. It really upsets them when they can't control their words.

Tourette's, tics, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia - all associated with autism. As are being non-heterosexual, not cisgendered, being kinky... And of course all sorts of geeks.

 

[VerbalAbuse]

Tourette's, tics, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia - all associated with autism. As are being non-heterosexual, not cisgendered, being kinky... And of course all sorts of geeks.

where did you come up with that from?

homosexuals are now autistic?

 

[AlinaX]

People will believe anything.

 

[EmilyMiller]

where did you come up with that from?

homosexuals are now autistic?

The other way round. ASD is likely to lead to you taking non traditional approaches to sexuality.

A B, not A B.

Emily

 

[Kumquatqueen]

where did you come up with that from?

homosexuals are now autistic?

*Associated*. Autistic people are more likely to be gay than neurotypicals are, and also, gay people are more likely than straight people to be autistic.

Last I read, they still weren't sure whether it was just that people who come out as one type of non-visible minority are also likely to come out as any other thing that's relevant, or if it's indeed a wiring difference - the latter seems to be the case, now being out as not straight is much more common than 40 years ago.

Autism is also associated with anxiety and depression - but again we don't know whether that's because of lack of understanding and support, or actually due to the autism.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Autism is also associated with anxiety and depression - but again we don't know whether that's because of lack of understanding and support, or actually due to the autism.

Emily

 

[Kumquatqueen]

In some ways, because Tourettes can often express itself in a way that is obvious, we can make exception for it and the person's ticks and auditory outbursts. We understand they are not making it up. A friend has a mild form resulting in her rolling her eyes when she's tired, which can be misinterpreted as being rude.

Some tics are more acceptable than others. Words and chirping noises can be accepted fairly easily (depending on the words and if people think it's directed at them personally); sniffing and grunts and snorts not so much, a boy licking his palms and fingers constantly and sticking his hand down his pants for a fiddle, really not.

 

[Bramblethorn]

Didn't know you had an autie son. That's interesting.
I totally get his reaction and have done much the same myself when I was much younger. In fact - snap.

Yup. I've never met two left handed people who were the same, so why would autistic people share identical or stereotypical empathetic reactions?
In the same way your son had his own way of dealing with his emotions, auties may well be overwhelmed by such an emotional situation. They might simultaneously be thinking about the zillion implications of someone's death; how the event might affect other people etc but not have a practised reaction to such an unusual event. "How can I both think of your feelings while trying to understand my own?" So they're stumped by how to respond. On the surface it might appear they are not reacting at all - resting face blank. Even NT folks can be thrown by the death of someone close.

Yep. I've been told I look "calm" at times when I'm shocked or grieving, because displaying emotion in a way NTs can interpret sometimes takes conscious effort and if I'm really badly upset I may not have the capacity for that performance.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Dad has two of them; I share one with him.

Tourette's, tics, ADHD, dyspraxia, dyslexia - all associated with autism. As are being non-heterosexual, not cisgendered, being kinky... And of course all sorts of geeks.

 

[Bramblethorn]

When I first came to live with my parents, Dad had an employee who suffered from Tourette Syndrome. He was a great kid, the son of a friend of my dad's, and very nice to me. But when things got stressful, you got the outburst, "Oh, boy, motherfucker, shit, oh man, fuck me," or something similar. Now customers don't like that. So, Dad, being the great person he is, pulled the kid into his office one night and told him he wouldn't be working concessions on busy nights but would get more hours and work during the day.

He made him the cleaner, put him in charge of receiving, taught him projection (we had film way back then), and how to work on the equipment. The theater was always clean, the projectors were always clean and maintained. He worked busy nights in the booth. And yes, since the booth was soundproof, his very occasional outburst bothered no one.

So much better for everybody than trying to change the way somebody's brain works.

It reminds me of the way stone walls are sometimes built in Hawai'i:



Somebody could have taken those stones and cut them into neat little blocks of the same shape and size. Instead they took the time to think about where each stone might fit best and how those odd shapes could work with one another.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Well, I'm an odd stoned one. No, I don't do drugs. I think they tried to stone me, but it didn't take.

So much better for everybody than trying to change the way somebody's brain works.

It reminds me of the way stone walls are sometimes built in Hawai'i:

View attachment 2317233

Somebody could have taken those stones and cut them into neat little blocks of the same shape and size. Instead they took the time to think about where each stone might fit best and how those odd shapes could work with one another.

 

[Bazzle]

So much better for everybody than trying to change the way somebody's brain works.

It reminds me of the way stone walls are sometimes built in Hawai'i:

View attachment 2317233

Somebody could have taken those stones and cut them into neat little blocks of the same shape and size. Instead they took the time to think about where each stone might fit best and how those odd shapes could work with one another.

watching a traditional stone hedge maker work is rather impressive. Rock Tetris!