Two questions

[Angeline]

No worries, Angeline. I am making a note, though, that your answer seems to be getting a bit slippery.





I've had that happen, too. It makes me feel like we're doing SOMETHING right.

I'll say this. I am a Gemini: my astrological chart is almost nothing but Gemini. I don't know how true all that stuff is but a lot of what they say about the sign really fits me: I can always see both sides of an issue (and sometimes make more sides out of them). It's a curse or a blessing depending on which day you ask me.

 

[champagne1982]

<snip>

I meant to add, art is the first three letters of ARTificial. We are all involved in artifice and even when it comes to autobiography, I suspect we are often involved in deceiving ourselves.

Perhaps, "autobiographical" is a typo... should maybe read -- ARTobiographical?

 

[bogusagain]

Perhaps, "autobiographical" is a typo... should maybe read -- ARTobiographical?

the present disintegrates into the past
as the future assembles into the present
there is no route back, no map, no reverse gear
memory is an unreliable atlas, a multi-facsimile
image over image over image, into something other
still recognizable, like returning home to a room
where the furniture has shifted, photos rearranged
your shoes gone, your coat no longer by the door
you can briefly visit but you can’t stay

 

[ishtat]

I remember an large exhibition of Picasso in London in the 90s, I had an epiphany and saw picasso without his clothes. I've never been able to take his fetishization of art seriously since.

Of course, most people will think I'm nuts for holding this view.

I saw a fair bit of his very early work in the small museum in Barcelona recently. It seemed to me that as a teenager he was a competent artisan rather than artist (and to be valued for that). Later he sold out to "celebrity."

Otherwise I agree with you - but he was at least superior to the circus fraudster Dali.

 

[bogusagain]

I saw a fair bit of his very early work in the small museum in Barcelona recently. It seemed to me that as a teenager he was a competent artisan rather than artist (and to be valued for that). Later he sold out to "celebrity."

Otherwise I agree with you - but he was at least superior to the circus fraudster Dali.

I have learned to be diplomatic about discarding his early works because it usually brings his followers out in rage but I do agree with you. He made big claims about himself when he was young which for me, there is no evidence. In the Dutch golden century when painters had apprentices, an average talent at the age of 15 could do far more than Picasso could at a similar age.

I agree with you on Dali too.

 

[twelveoone]

I have learned to be diplomatic about discarding his early works because it usually brings his followers out in rage but I do agree with you. He made big claims about himself when he was young which for me, there is no evidence. In the Dutch golden century when painters had apprentices, an average talent at the age of 15 could do far more than Picasso could at a similar age.

I agree with you on Dali too.

I really am surprised at you , mr. red & black. Picasso and Dali invented a system, that was fully exploited by the greatest artist of all time Andy Warhol. Previous to them, artists worked as the dogs of the exploiting class.
Warhol perfected the subversion of the system by selling the monied class (read exploiting) silkscreens of soup cans, and as it was not coerced, it was libertarian. One really must look at from a socio-politico-economico standpoint.
Dutch Bastards, ptah! Let's have fakery with no pretensions. Painters on Black Velvet arise!
There is also something to be said about the LCD, this is what the great Porn State Literotica was founded on and grounded on. All we need is just a few more rhyming couplets (get it couplets as in coupling*) and the perfect pornotopia will arise.

* Actually I would respect them if someone said, 'I write in rhyming couplets 'cause there's two of us fuckin y'know' . But no, ya dim bastards, I had to think of it, didn't I?

EOR
end of rant

 

[twelveoone]

Here

I'll pop another soup can of worms
Ish & Bog
What is the difference between Craft and Art?

 

[twelveoone]

You have your way. I have my way. As for the right way, the correct way, and the only way, it does not exist.
~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Ange, I wondered where I got my philosophy of Uberdicten

 

[HarryHill]

I'll pop another soup can of worms
Ish & Bog
What is the difference between Craft and Art?

..
craft is the art of creation
art is the craft of invention

 

[twelveoone]

..
craft is the art of creation
art is the craft of invention

necessity is the mother of invention
the father is wanted for child support

 

[HarryHill]

necessity is the mother of invention
the father is wanted for child support

What?

 

[twelveoone]

watt belongs in the bulb thread, Harry.
While I'm at it...
Does Zeitgeist go better

on white bread

or rye?

careful this question may loaded

with a pun

which the 2nd amendment entitles me to do

 

[HarryHill]

watt belongs in the bulb thread, Harry.
While I'm at it...
Does Zeitgeist go better

on white bread

or rye?

careful this question may loaded

with a pun

which the 2nd amendment entitles me to do

..
An ambiguous question, according to bing. one answer could be: neither, popcorn.
for the life of me I don't know where the wiki definition and grain intersect.
but there is a beer buried in the stack by that name.
Give us our daily bread. food for thought reading further. enough. post
..
Punish away

 

[bogusagain]

Warhol perfected the subversion of the system by selling the monied class (read exploiting) silkscreens of soup cans, and as it was not coerced, it was libertarian. One really must look at from a socio-politico-economico standpoint.

If we are talking about the economics of art, I agree with you, sell the rich shit and keep selling it to them. As for the artistic quality, well that is another matter.

Though really it was photography and film that altered fine art, in a stroke it replaced many reasons to make art. Paintings in the 19th century salons were the cinema of their day. The public would pay to see epic paintings and the artist earned from that, as for portraits, who needed a portrait painter when a photographer was pennies in comparison.

What Picasso did, was fetishize art. He made art an object of status. You no longer had to look at it, owning it was enough. Who would really want to own a Cezanne before photography was common place? Cezanne couldn't draw or paint. What he did was develop a style which masked his many inabilities. One of the ironies of art history is the style a hammy amateur painter developed influenced an artist who would alter the entire tradition of western art. Without film and photography, this wouldn't have happened.

As for Warhol. He did realise art was business and business was about making money. Without Picasso first fetishizing art, Warhol couldn't have pulled that one off but credit where credit is due, he pulled it off.

However, we come back to art. Did any of this democratise art? Not in my book. Now we have socialised capitalist art in public funded galleries. We used to mock official Soviet art for being state sponsored but that is exactly what western art is, state sponsoter art because the collections of private collectors are validated in public museums, which give private art credibility and increases its value.

Jeez! I could go on and on on this. One thing about poetry and writing. It can't be tamed and commoditised in the same way art can and is.

 

[bogusagain]

I'll pop another soup can of worms
Ish & Bog
What is the difference between Craft and Art?

Anyone can be creative without boundaries because there are no criteria by which to judge creativity. Even when you break boundaries, you need the boundaries as a context. Then a work has to have its own internal logic. The artist creates the context within which a work is judged.

Let's consider music, if you can't play and instrument, which is a craft, you can't play music, even if you break the conventions of music. You can only do a John Cage 4'33 once before it becomes pointless. Cage made a valid point but how many times can you make that point and it still be meaningful?

 

[twelveoone]

Jeez! I could go on and on on this. One thing about poetry and writing. It can't be tamed and commoditised in the same way art can and is.

I know, I know and you know I use these things to go off on my absurdest tangents.
See the problem I have with the Black Flag is it has too much colour in it, clear cellophane would be better. As in...
O say can you see
clear up to the sky...

 

[bogusagain]

I know, I know and you know I use these things to go off on my absurdest tangents.

Absurd is good. Without it we would have the same polite craft all the time. Tea and cucumber sandwiches and a vicar trying to look up the maid's skirt but all very civilised.

 

[twelveoone]

One thing about poetry and writing. It can't be tamed and commoditised in the same way art can and is.

Oh, really?
Maya Angelou, who learned the craft at Hallmark
Rod McKuen who if it wasn't for Marijuana would have had to invented it
latter day Ginsberg
any way ART test, you know like my punchin buddy TZ, I do use the obscure ref
where is this from
the prince of hell awaits me
commode upon his head
good, it looks like Ol Fish Face
has stuffed his ass to the gills

not the words, I just made 'em up, the image?

 

[twelveoone]

oh. c'mon
it's on the last triptych on the left

 

[bronzeage]

All of my poems are autobiographical, except for the ones which are not. I write based on experience and after a life of very bad behavior, I have a rich field to mine for material.

I've never had much heart for describing sunsets or flowers. I like poems which pull and twist. If not, I don't see the point.

As far as the autobiographical part, consider me very unreliable. One cannot really trust anything in my poems to have actually happened, although somethings are very close to the truth. Some are embellished to make them better and some to hide how bad it really was.

A poet who writes in the first person has a special burden. Readers always assume every bit is true, and worse, imagine it all happened yesterday.

 

[bogusagain]

Oh, really?
Maya Angelou, who learned the craft at Hallmark
Rod McKuen who if it wasn't for Marijuana would have had to invented it
latter day Ginsberg
any way ART test, you know like my punchin buddy TZ, I do use the obscure ref
where is this from
the prince of hell awaits me
commode upon his head
good, it looks like Ol Fish Face
has stuffed his ass to the gills

not the words, I just made 'em up, the image?

Shit! You are right and I thought I had got you this time!

Bosch? Or are we talking about Grunewald? Damn, I'm going to have to google.

I can't find the exact piece but I'll plump for Heironymus Bosch or that is the sort of image that comes to mind. The Last Judgement?.

 

[twelveoone]

Shit! You are right and I thought I had got you this time!

Bosch? Or are we talking about Grunewald? Damn, I'm going to have to google.

I can't find the exact piece but I'll plump for Heironymus Bosch or that is the sort of image that comes to mind. The Last Judgement?.

Bosch
thought about writing about it from the inside, probably won't. See that is what I like about this place, somebody will get it. Sometimes I get lucky and two people get it.

 

[bogusagain]

thought about writing about it from the inside, probably won't.

You should.

this commode, I wear as a helmet
protects me from the world, not hell
hell being a warm and inviting place
neither alienating nor cold
no petty jealousies and spite here
everyone has fire by equal right

 

[HarryHill]

watt belongs in the bulb thread, Harry.
While I'm at it...
Does Zeitgeist go better

on white bread

or rye?

careful this question may loaded

with a pun

which the 2nd amendment entitles me to do

..
You are no pun at all, and there's not a light bulb thread, I looked.

 

[bogusagain]

..
You are no pun at all, and there's not a light bulb thread, I looked.

Isn't twelve talking about the illustrated poetry guide thread? I'm wondering if white or rye is refering to Uncle Buk's Ham On Rye.