Unconditional Love

[artful]

A Response

Originally posted by Persephone36
Lol! Can you tell this is a topic I really like?

Do you mind if I make one point MsWorthy? I *don't* think
children are given unconditional love -- I think parents *think*
they're giving it...but that as children we learn that love is
conditional. That's where our conditioning about love comes
from -- that "we should have known better" "bad girl" "what
were you thinking?" -- oh, and a whole slew of others.
. . .
P.

This is where I think SOME people, have difficulty in discerning the DIFFERENCE between Discipline and Punishment. Discipline, (IMO), is done with CARE for the INDIVIDUALS *benefit*, whereas Punishment, is done to DETRACT from an INDIVIDUALS *worth*.

(JMHO),...but it's MINE,...and I own it.....

 

[MsWorthy]

James, I wasn't postulating a universal belief. I was asking for opinions. I never meant to put forth an opinion and speak as though it was true for everyone. I thought I made it clear that I was asking for other's opinions.

I apologize if my way of wording my question caused insult.

 

[Persephone36]

Re: Re: What a *great* topic!

Excellent point, Persy, thank you. I hadn't thought of it in that way, but I think you are probably right.

I learned that by just starting my readings of Cheri Huber and Pema Chodron (both amazing Buddhist teachers and writers) -- Cheri has a great book called "There is Nothing Wrong With You...going beyond self-hate, a compassionate process for learning to accept yourself exactly as you are."

And right from the start -- she addresses all the conditioning we received as children. The instruction that love was conditional -- that we were not capable of being loved without conditions and thus can't love ourselves without them.

So she posits to start considering that nothing you believe about yourself is true. Question everything. Well, I could go on...but the whole book is set up as a guide to finding unconditional love and acceptance within one's self. I think that's where all love begins. And I agree with whomever stated it above -- it is an ideal. To me, it's just a worthy one to pursue -- to learn to accept and love myself, to the best of my abilities -- without conditions.

I think from there -- that will influence all my other relationships.

But I certainly don't think one has to look at it from a Buddhist perspective to have that insight. It's just the way I was able to start on the path of accepting myself. Uh, and analytic therapy didn't hurt either.

So, once again -- I might have taken the subject off the course. But I know someone else will bring it around again.

**********

Eb -- *thank you* for saying what you did when you replied to me -- you're absolutely right. And it was my instinct too -- treat and approach all relationships the same way.


P.

 

[James Blandings]

James, I wasn't postulating a universal belief. I was asking for opinions. I never meant to put forth an opinion and speak as though it was true for everyone. I thought I made it clear that I was asking for other's opinions.

I apologize if my way of wording my question caused insult.

MsWorthy, I apologize if my post was not clear. I did not mean to imply that you were postulating a universal truth, I was only addressing the issue in general, without meaning to point a finger at any person, or make inferences about anyone's position.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Re: Re: What a *great* topic!

I learned that by just starting my readings of Cheri Huber and Pema Chodron (both amazing Buddhist teachers and writers) -- Cheri has a great book called "There is Nothing Wrong With You...going beyond self-hate, a compassionate process for learning to accept yourself exactly as you are."

And right from the start -- she addresses all the conditioning we received as children. The instruction that love was conditional -- that we were not capable of being loved without conditions and thus can't love ourselves without them.

So she posits to start considering that nothing you believe about yourself is true. Question everything. Well, I could go on...but the whole book is set up as a guide to finding unconditional love and acceptance within one's self. I think that's where all love begins. And I agree with whomever stated it above -- it is an ideal. To me, it's just a worthy one to pursue -- to learn to accept and love myself, to the best of my abilities -- without conditions.

I think from there -- that will influence all my other relationships.

But I certainly don't think one has to look at it from a Buddhist perspective to have that insight. It's just the way I was able to start on the path of accepting myself. Uh, and analytic therapy didn't hurt either.

So, once again -- I might have taken the subject off the course. But I know someone else will bring it around again.

**********

Eb -- *thank you* for saying what you did when you replied to me -- you're absolutely right. And it was my instinct too -- treat and approach all relationships the same way.


P.

I have been doing lots of work of myself since I turned 50 years old two years ago.

One of the things I learned was that unconditional love is a process that COMES FROM THE INSIDE OUT, and not vice versa.
If I love Me unconditionally it makes it much easier to love others. It does not mean I have to put up with their bullshit. I just try not to put any significance to their BS, I just remove myself from the situation and let them be. I move on. But the love is still there. I am not down with OPP. (other people's problems and perceptions). What this means is that I do not take on other people's problems and perceptions, if I can. I sometimes fall short of this goal, but after all, I am only human.

Ebony

 

[MsWorthy]

I understand. Thanks for making that clear, James. *smiles*

 

[Persephone36]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What a *great* topic!

I have been doing lots of work of myself since I turned 50 years old two years ago.

One of the things I learned was that unconditional love is a process that COMES FROM THE INSIDE OUT, and not vice versa.
If I love Me unconditionally it makes it much easier to love others. It does not mean I have to put up with their bullshit. I just try not to put any significance to their BS, I just remove myself from the situation and let them be. I move on. But the love is still there. I am not down with OPP. (other people's problems and perceptions). What this means is that I do not take on other people's problems and perceptions, if I can. I sometimes fall short of this goal, but after all, I am only human.

Ebony

Absolutely, Eb, I completely understand where you're coming from.

(Lol, you should see my worship of your wisdom on the "cumming" thread)

That is the great thing about getting older -- we hopefully continue to grow and stretch ourselves as people. Which for those lucky ones -- also means having a deepening sense of self and self-acceptance.

It's also, and this is not to be sexist at all, but why I place great value on my friendships with women who are older than me. One of my best friends is 51 -- I'm 37 and we've been close friends for 12 years. Working together, vacationing together. It's been an enormous strength to me to have her perspective. That's one of the things I actually miss about the community of women where I went to college (because it was an all-women's college.) The ability to share experiences amongst generations. (I think, I'm sure I just lost out on a job at another all-women's college and it would have been organizing the reunions for all the classes. The idea of that when I started to think about it SO engaged me. But as I said, I think it went to the other person I was up against.) Anyway, that sharing of perspective -- across agelines -- perhaps it's why I'm drawn to boards as well -- where you can feel that, really experience wisdom learned from any age perspective.

Okay, sorry -- momentary sentimental side track.

Now, back to the thread...

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: Re: What a *great* topic!

.

So she posits to start considering that nothing you believe about yourself is true. Question everything. Well, I could go on...but the whole book is set up as a guide to finding unconditional love and acceptance within one's self. I think that's where all love begins. And I agree with whomever stated it above -- it is an ideal. To me, it's just a worthy one to pursue -- to learn to accept and love myself, to the best of my abilities -- without conditions.

I think from there -- that will influence all my other relationships.




this post reminded me of a quote and I know I shall say it wrong but please forgive me ,I believe it was by Shakespeare that says" TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE,THEN THOU CANNOT BE FALSE TO ANY MAN.."knowing loving and accepting who a person is as1st themselves. my Master taught me that loving myself IS IMPORTANT and that I AM worthy of REAL LOVE..
AS FAR AS THE 'CHILDREN' ISSUE ALL I can really say on that subject is at the beginning they do deserve ALL the love we have unconditionally because after all ,it was OUR choice , not theirs to bring them into this world!!

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Re: MsWorthy

Dream, I think you have touched on a very important point.
Many people come into BDSM after a long and unfulfilling period of trying to fit themselves into a "normal" mold. It is only natural that when they realize their desires they come to feel that they have discovered something superior to anything else. And for them, it is. But as you said, that is because it is right for THEM, and it is not a universal truth.

thank-you JAMES I did come to find out that that I was denying my own happiness by denying my own sexuality..and yes I DO feel that this relationship that I share with Artful is far Superior to any other that I've ever had but that's JMHO and if anyone should know,I should..

 

[Persephone36]

Re: Re: Re: Re: What a *great* topic!

[this post reminded me of a quote and I know I shall say it wrong but please forgive me ,I believe it was by Shakespeare that says" TO THINE OWN SELF BE TRUE,THEN THOU CANNOT BE FALSE TO ANY MAN.."knowing loving and accepting who a person is as1st themselves. my Master taught me that loving myself IS IMPORTANT and that I AM worthy of REAL LOVE..
AS FAR AS THE 'CHILDREN' ISSUE ALL I can really say on that subject is at the beginning they do deserve ALL the love we have unconditionally because after all ,it was OUR choice , not theirs to bring them into this world!!

You got it Dream -- it's a quote from Hamlet. The right play to be referencing too when talking about delving into the self! Great quote!

Oh, and yes -- of course children deserve all the love they can receive. But we all do. It's not a parent's fault that children learn conditions to the love their parent's give them. It happens without anyone even being truly aware of it. There's no fault in it -- it just occurs in the course of teaching them about the world and the morals you want them to have. Children learn to feel guility for actions they couldn't ever possibly know they shouldn't do. But that is the parent's role -- to place conditions in a child's life. It screws us all up equally! That's why I feel for parents -- because we all do a number on our kids, we can't help it.

But to be your own person, to know your nature (now that's going into Hamlet territory, lol) then you have to question all the conditioning your parents raised you with -- you have to question it all -- to know yourself. And to accept who you are with no conditions. Eventually -- the goal is unconditional love of yourself -- complete acceptance.

P.

 

[~*sunkyssed_kym*~]

Re: Re: Unconditional Love

I think I strive for unconditional love, but many times fall sort of the goal. I do not think kids get it either. Look at some of the children we raise cause WE adults fall short of the goal of unconditional love, and place unfair expectations on them?

As for my friends, when I say unconditional I mean I let them be themselves, even if I may disagree with what they are doing I still love them and they are my friends. Unconditional love has to do with ME and MY responses. they do no thave to confrm to any norm for my positive regard.

That means that sometimes if they are doing something that may have a negative impact on me, I may choose to love them from afar.

Ebony

Ebony has spoken my thoughts on unconditional love to a tee. I'm not always successful at loving unconditionally, but I don't give up when I have those difficulties. I step back and re-adjust my thinking and try harder.

It wasn't until I met MY-Sir a year ago, that I was finally able to explore my desire of submitting. For 30 or so years, all of my relationships had been "nilla", and seemed to have conditions placed on them. Starting with the first one. "If you love me you'll........."
I feel that its because of my inner awakening more so than my sexual awakening that I strive to love others unconditionally. I suppose I grew tired of putting restrictions on others to gratify my own insecurities. As I stated, I haven't gotten it completely correct YET; But I am working on it!

Good thread Msworthy! You made me re-examine some beliefs that I hadn't thought of in some time.
And to add....I didn't think you were a pointing finger at anyone by asking if others found it hard to love without restraint (pardon the pun) in a BDSM relationship. I think that loving anyone without limitations is hard, no matter what kind of relationship it may be.
I'm still working on loving my 21 year old daughter unconditionally,. LOL!

 

[RisiaSkye]

By way of clarification and discussion...

I should apologize to Ms. Worthy?

Give me a very specific and compelling reason why. I'm reasonable. However, right now what I see is a woman attempting to initiating a separatist discussion that puts herself and people like her above others. If I am wrong, and you are more than welcome to prove me wrong, please outline exactly how this might be. <snip>

You cannot use the word "than" in a comparison situation without making one side superior and one side inferior. Whatever her intentions were, when she said, "In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?" She asked you to judge your relationships against my relationships and decide which one was superior and which one was inferior under these conditions.

This seems to be the crux of the misunderstanding: (quoted from MsW's original post) Do you feel that, by the nature of the power exchange, couples in a d/s relationship are even more conditional than other couples. In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have? I think, if you reread this pair of sentences, you'll notice that it asks whether the conditions are more stringent--it doesn't take a position.

And, further, it doesn't take a position as to whether or not more stringent conditionality makes for a superior or inferior relationship. The binary judgement you're seeing, the one which places (possibly less conditional) 'nilla love below BDSM love, is NEVER advanced by the original post. Just food for thought.

In the past few weeks I've seen a number of threads pop up where people compare their relationships to other people's relationships and judge them. Just like this thread is doing.

I could tell you right now that you have no idea what trust is until you live with a man that can kill you in 10 seconds or less barehanded. A man that has killed other human beings. I could lord my relationship over you because I can and have to do things that you don't and I have to make sacrifices, compromises, and negotiations that you don't. But I don't. My relationship isn't better than anyone elses. It's not harder, it's not easier, it's not comparable to anyone else's. It's just different.

I've reversed the order of these paragraphs to make a rather obvious point about the nature of judgements.

~~~
And now, back to the point:

I don't love *anyone* unconditionally. Some relationships have less conditions, some more, but none are absolutely without judgement or reservation. That may just be me, but I'm not trying to speak for anyone else, so it's all good. I don't very often try to change anybody, and I often love and accept people who differ from myself in very key and unsettling ways--but that doesn't mean that I love them unconditionally or without judgement.

And, no, I don't think BDSM relationships are any more conditional. The conditions are just more frequently articulated.

 

[cellis]

Just my thougths about this whole thing...

For the record, I don't think we can truly love unconditionally. I do think that a parents love for their child is probably as close as we as human beings can come. And I might add, not all parents even come close to unconditional love.

As an adult today, I try to be accepting of others beliefs and behaviors even though I would not own them myself. If I cannot accept those things in others I tend to move away from them.

Do I think it is harder to find someone to have a relationship in the BDSM realm as opposed to the vanilla world? No, I think it is just different and our expectations are different.

For me I had a lifetime of things I was not going to repeat. I knew what I was looking for when I began looking and what I wanted. I was very clear in my head for the first time in my life about who and what I wanted in my life.

For the record... I don't think Killer Muffin owes anyone an apology. Last time I looked we still had free speech and she is allowed to say what she thinks.

Maybe I did not read into the question the same things she did, but I respect her right to say what she thinks without censure.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I wouldn't say that Ms. Worthy put out a value judgment.

However, she asked everyone else to. She asked people to weigh their conditions for their relationship and judge them against the Nilla experience and come to a conclusion.

The word "than" is extremely clear and doesn't come with connotations.

"Do you feel that, by the nature of the power exchange, couples in a d/s relationship are even more conditional than other couples. In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have?"

Reword her question this way:

Do you feel that the conditions of your acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner are more stringent than the conditions I might have?

She may not have meant to single me out personally and ask this in general. But you really can't do that when you compare two groups. You aren't singling out an individual by name, you're singling out an individual based on lifestyle.

My objection is not with the question or the wording of the question. My objection is with the comparison this question is asking people to make. No matter how she worded this question, it would be objectionable because it requires the person who answers the question to compare their knowledge of BDSM relationships to their knowledge of 'Nilla relationships and render a judgment.

How can you possibly compare the two and render a judgment without being insulting to one or the other? They're not comparable.

You can compare apples and oranges. Apples are red, green, or yellow. Oranges are orange. But if you begin to ask questions like are apples more tart than oranges? You are asking someone to render a value judgment. When you render a value judgment, someone is the loser.

Ms. Worthy, I did not misinterpret your question. It did offend me. There was no "if" involved. You were not ambiguous, you were very clear. You asked a question intended to compare a BDSM relationship to a 'Nilla relationship and render a value judgment. All of this aside, I'm curious now; do you feel that the conditions of your acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner are more stringent than the conditions I might have? Why? Don't run with tact or diplomacy, use honesty. I prefer blunt honesty to prevarication.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: By way of clarification and discussion...

I am chuckling RS, cause you said it all. That is why I said I strive for it. Cause sometimes folks just piss me off. I TRY, but I do not always SUCCEED. So I do a lot of loving from afar.

Eb

This seems to be the crux of the misunderstanding: (quoted from MsW's original post) Do you feel that, by the nature of the power exchange, couples in a d/s relationship are even more conditional than other couples. In other words, are the conditions of our acceptance, commitment, and love for a partner more stringent than the conditions a 'nilla person might have? I think, if you reread this pair of sentences, you'll notice that it asks whether the conditions are more stringent--it doesn't take a position.

And, further, it doesn't take a position as to whether or not more stringent conditionality makes for a superior or inferior relationship. The binary judgement you're seeing, the one which places (possibly less conditional) 'nilla love below BDSM love, is NEVER advanced by the original post. Just food for thought.


I've reversed the order of these paragraphs to make a rather obvious point about the nature of judgements.

~~~
And now, back to the point:

I don't love *anyone* unconditionally. Some relationships have less conditions, some more, but none are absolutely without judgement or reservation. That may just be me, but I'm not trying to speak for anyone else, so it's all good. I don't very often try to change anybody, and I often love and accept people who differ from myself in very key and unsettling ways--but that doesn't mean that I love them unconditionally or without judgement.

And, no, I don't think BDSM relationships are any more conditional. The conditions are just more frequently articulated.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I didn't read any posts after my last and I don't intend to. Instead I had a chance to think and some wise advice from a really great person. I believe that I'm overreacting. While my point of view here is still valid, I think I'm taking it too far and getting slightly, what's a good word... rabid about it.

So I'm going to go away from this thread and leave you to do your thing in piece. Please, if you haven't already, ignore anything I posted in this thread. It's better for everyone, really.

I will not apologize for anything I've said, because I don't believe that I was either harsh or wrong in it. However, I will apologize for saying it in the first place. Rather than responding to something that I found provocative when I knew it wasn't meant to be, I should taken myself out of the forum. So, I'm going to do that now.

 

[MissTaken]

Unconditional love only occurs between a parent and child.

On the other hand, the vicitim in an abusive situation who keeps loving long after the abuse and mistreatment starts, is that unconditional love? Is that love at all?

 

[Lancecastor]

First let me say how pleased I am to have stayed out of this thread this long.

I suspect perhaps you might be glad I stayed out as well (ha!).

I believe in unconditional love.

The book of Corinthians speaks quite nicely about it...you know, the reading they use at weddings.

Even the old standard wedding vows say it in a way when they talk about "For better or worse, for rich or poor, in sickness and in health, for as long as ye both may live."

Unconditional love doesn't require the same in return....though it's a nice benefit that keeps the wheels of relationshp humming, and makes a one-way unconditional love seem abusive and/or victimizing depending on the dynamic.

I know, for example, that I love my family unconditionally.

And I feel the same for a number of friends.

It's not always easy...but that's often the way with any worthwhile longterm endeavor.

Unconditional love doesn't always mean easy, or happy or successful...that's where the "unconditional" part comes in.

And I think in this oh so convenient time, when selfish instant gratification and hollow promises often seem to rule, it's easy to go for the short wins and forget the long road.

Unconditional love is a challenge, a goal, few of us will ever easily attain, but is worth the effort nonetheless.

That's all I wanted to say.

Thanks;

Lance

 

[Daddyslilpet]

As much as it pains me to admit it ( ).....I have to agree with Lance's post.

I think maybe something I said on his friendship thread might have sounded as if I place conditions on my love and/or friendship. This is not the case. I said I catagorized a true friend as one that wouldn't ask me to do something that would go against my ethics....not that I wouldn't go to the ends of the earth to help out a friend.

In my life the people I love unconditionally are my children, my husband and my friends. I accept them all for who they are, not what I want them to be.

dixi

 

[Lancecastor]

No worries...

As much as it pains me to admit it ( ).....I have to agree with Lance's post.

...dixi, I'm sure it won't be long before I say something to even things out again.

Lance "Ooops I did it again" Castor

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Actually Lance, I bet you'd be surprised.


dixi

 

[artful]

First let me say how pleased I am to have stayed out of this thread this long.

I suspect perhaps you might be glad I stayed out as well (ha!).

I believe in unconditional love.

The book of Corinthians speaks quite nicely about it...you know, the reading they use at weddings.

Even the old standard wedding vows say it in a way when they talk about "For better or worse, for rich or poor, in sickness and in health, for as long as ye both may live."

Unconditional love doesn't require the same in return....though it's a nice benefit that keeps the wheels of relationshp humming, and makes a one-way unconditional love seem abusive and/or victimizing depending on the dynamic.

I know, for example, that I love my family unconditionally.

And I feel the same for a number of friends.

It's not always easy...but that's often the way with any worthwhile longterm endeavor.

Unconditional love doesn't always mean easy, or happy or successful...that's where the "unconditional" part comes in.

And I think in this oh so convenient time, when selfish instant gratification and hollow promises often seem to rule, it's easy to go for the short wins and forget the long road.

Unconditional love is a challenge, a goal, few of us will ever easily attain, but is worth the effort nonetheless.

That's all I wanted to say.

Thanks;

Lance

On one side,...I have MissT, Shadows, MsWorthy, MzChristy, Perse, ADR, Sis, AOS, RS, Dream, cellis, kayte, and a few more ladies who I apologise for forgetting to remember their names.

They all help me to express some of my opinions with greater clarity at times. Thank you ALL. Now without any pain at all, I have to include Lance as one more who has done this for me also.

I quite agree with his post, and with the words of another man who I respect highly, (SpectreT), I will say, "I couldn't have said it better myself!"
Thanks for stating my thoughts so clearly Lance.

 

[A Desert Rose]

oh cripes - here goes.......

Unconditional love means to me, that the recipient does nothing for it. They are loved without the need to perform for it, (as in a child behaving well.)
They are loved despite their human flaws and mistakes they may make.
They are loved because the lover needs to love. (I need you because I love you, NOT I love you because I need you.)

So therefore, unconditional love is selfless and unselfish, in my opinion, of course.

Feel free to ignore it, disagree, or add or subtract from my opinion. That is the reason I posted it.

Thank you.

 

[artful]

Re: oh cripes - here goes.......

Unconditional love means to me, that the recipient does nothing for it. They are loved without the need to perform for it, (as in a child behaving well.)
They are loved despite their human flaws and mistakes they may make.
They are loved because the lover needs to love. (I need you because I love you, NOT I love you because I need you.)

So therefore, unconditional love is selfless and unselfish, in my opinion, of course.

Feel free to ignore it, disagree, or add or subtract from my opinion. That is the reason I posted it.

Thank you.

Just adding my 2 cents. I think it's all about choice. What does one CHOOSE to do? Dream has some idea what this means, as we have discussed it a lot.

I CHOOSE who I love unconditionally. Most people look at their emotions as uncontrollable. I don't!

Often I will let my emotions run wild and free, BUT,...I recognise the fact that, *THAT* is not ALWAYS the case.

(Course,...I am a control freak, and you guys already knew THAT!)

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: oh cripes - here goes.......

Just adding my 2 cents. I think it's all about choice. What does one CHOOSE to do? Dream has some idea what this means, as we have discussed it a lot.

I CHOOSE who I love unconditionally. Most people look at their emotions as uncontrollable. I don't!

Often I will let my emotions run wild and free, BUT,...I recognise the fact that, *THAT* is not ALWAYS the case.

(Course,...I am a control freak, and you guys already knew THAT!)

~~~~~~~~Except in the case of children, I AGREE that we make the choice who we are going to love unconditionally. And I AGREE that, like you, my emotions are under my control.
As you are fond of saying "it's my opinion and I own it," the same goes for YOUR emotions and MINE.
Thank you Art, for reading and adding to my post.