Warping sexuality
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Pure
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Agreed, if the emphasis is on 'dirty and 'slut.' Not just, "Now I'm into pain." 'Slut' being here defined as one having depraved and very pressing sexual desires which are pursued without scruple, and in this case to the shame of the desirer.
Of course turning the bottom into a genuine slut is one classic example of the 'warping' which is the thread topic. Not just that the bottom becomes a hot tamale, but one who'll do anything, rather indiscriminately to get laid.
Another of your examples occurs to me: Having the male sub masturbate onto a plate and eat the semen. Initially, yes, you could call it win (the O)/ cost (revolting eating task). IF this is pursued in a certain way, however, the cost with become (also) the object of a depraved desire. That's the sort of 'warp' or 'corruption' I'm thinking about in this thread.
Of course turning the bottom into a genuine slut is one classic example of the 'warping' which is the thread topic. Not just that the bottom becomes a hot tamale, but one who'll do anything, rather indiscriminately to get laid.
Another of your examples occurs to me: Having the male sub masturbate onto a plate and eat the semen. Initially, yes, you could call it win (the O)/ cost (revolting eating task). IF this is pursued in a certain way, however, the cost with become (also) the object of a depraved desire. That's the sort of 'warp' or 'corruption' I'm thinking about in this thread.
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Netzach
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Pure said:
Why?
Like, why is it not warped just to discover you didn't like being hit, and now you do?
I sure had to re-negotiate MY image of myself when I had that discovery - that this whipping thing could feel good to me, in a rather humbling way.
H piltdown
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Certainly, with some people, it’s possible to reward condition them to eroticize a previously repulsive or undisirable scene. The scope of human sexuality is amazing, but I would think a couple of specific and rare conditions would have to be present.
First of all, the concerned parties would need to have a strong and persistent interest in behavior modification, of course. That goes without question. Otherwise we lose consent.
Secondly, turning a negative response into a positive one is never easy in anyone, although I will admit it is possible..
Next, people are obviously more complex psychologically than Pavlov’s dogs. Pavlov’s dogs had the advantage of survival drives to work with. The submissive in this particular case would only have the desire to please or submit to his/her Dom(me). So, the result may not be conditioning, but a conscious decision by the sub to play the role in spite of his/her desires.
There’s, also, the condition of arousal. This sub is aroused by the condition of humiliation—Not necessarily the fetish object or scene. So, the reward of orgasm would be associated with the original method of arousal. The disgusting or undesirable image is NOT the reason for arousal. Plus, that same image is not actually humiliating, but simply disgusting or undesirable. The humiliation is derived from the perception of self, the Dominant and any other people that may be involved in the scene.
Another little caveat about humiliation is that repetition often leads to indifference. So, continued sexual reward in this respect may have exactly the opposite outcome than the one desired.
Finally, an image or a condition that is not sexually arousing, and has no initial fetish content does little or nothing for a submissive within a D/s relationship. We shouldn’t forget that a submissive, like a Dominant is involved in the relationship for personal gratification. They just desire a different means to achieve that end. Furthermore, the relationship is not only consensual, but voluntary. If a submissive frequently finds him/herself confronted with disturbing images or events, they’ll probably look for their personal gratification elsewhere.
What it comes down to for me is that the act, scene or object is not the source of humiliation. The perception is the source. Continuous, repetitive exposure to anything degrades those feelings. Therefore, in my opinion and experience, this type of conditioning is possible, but the conditions required for accomplishing a true arousal response to something that holds no initial sexual interest is so unlikely and difficult to accomplish that the cost to the average person far outweighs the rewards.
Edited to add; For the grammer buffs--In the following sentence from the fourth paragraph above...
First of all, the concerned parties would need to have a strong and persistent interest in behavior modification, of course. That goes without question. Otherwise we lose consent.
Secondly, turning a negative response into a positive one is never easy in anyone, although I will admit it is possible..
Next, people are obviously more complex psychologically than Pavlov’s dogs. Pavlov’s dogs had the advantage of survival drives to work with. The submissive in this particular case would only have the desire to please or submit to his/her Dom(me). So, the result may not be conditioning, but a conscious decision by the sub to play the role in spite of his/her desires.
There’s, also, the condition of arousal. This sub is aroused by the condition of humiliation—Not necessarily the fetish object or scene. So, the reward of orgasm would be associated with the original method of arousal. The disgusting or undesirable image is NOT the reason for arousal. Plus, that same image is not actually humiliating, but simply disgusting or undesirable. The humiliation is derived from the perception of self, the Dominant and any other people that may be involved in the scene.
Another little caveat about humiliation is that repetition often leads to indifference. So, continued sexual reward in this respect may have exactly the opposite outcome than the one desired.
Finally, an image or a condition that is not sexually arousing, and has no initial fetish content does little or nothing for a submissive within a D/s relationship. We shouldn’t forget that a submissive, like a Dominant is involved in the relationship for personal gratification. They just desire a different means to achieve that end. Furthermore, the relationship is not only consensual, but voluntary. If a submissive frequently finds him/herself confronted with disturbing images or events, they’ll probably look for their personal gratification elsewhere.
Directed masturbation to licking cum from shoes may not be derived from the same fetish, but that does not necessarily make it a conditioned response. If a person is not just indifferent to licking cum from shoes, but disgusted by the act, it’s likely that no amount of consensual training is going to make the act arousing. However, the sub may eventually learn to tolerate the act in an effort to please the Dom(me).
What it comes down to for me is that the act, scene or object is not the source of humiliation. The perception is the source. Continuous, repetitive exposure to anything degrades those feelings. Therefore, in my opinion and experience, this type of conditioning is possible, but the conditions required for accomplishing a true arousal response to something that holds no initial sexual interest is so unlikely and difficult to accomplish that the cost to the average person far outweighs the rewards.
Edited to add; For the grammer buffs--In the following sentence from the fourth paragraph above...
...would the proper word be 'despite' rather than 'in spite."
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Pure
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Some interesting points, piltdown, you fraudulent find, you. How is that skull, these days? Still giving you problems?! It was a pleasure to read your posting.
In particular, it's certainly true that repetition can lead to indifference (familiarity breeds contempt). This is a fact that is frequently NOT noted (or dealt with): That a whipping, just like sex, can get to be fairly predictable. Where the excitement dies, so does part of the erotism.
I don't really want to debate, in the abstract, about the difficulty of training a perversion or corruption. You agree that, at least occasionally it can be done. In psych lab, we once developed a conditioned reflex, in a human, in a very few (<5 iirc) hours.
I wonder why so many are concerned to post "it can't be done." I suspect it's the old, 'everyone is something, from birth; all that happens is realizing one's innate leanings.' There's also the old piece of dom/me propaganda, 'I will draw out your true inner nature and bring you peace and fulfillment of true self.' Not, "For my amusement, I just might bring out some 'queer' leaning, to full flower in practice."
In one sense, though, I might concede, when a person develops a characteristic or leaning, that, in some sense, the 'seed' was there. This certainly may be the case for sexual leanings. (It's harder to see for a love of fine Spanish sherry.) Freud and others-- just look to your dreams-- hav remarked on how many perverse impulses there are in the average person. Not to say, serious agressive ones (i.e., such as could lead to murder).
From (I'll say) *many* childhoods is a wealth of material; early seed experiences, but it the nanny's vinyl boots, or hearing mom peeing in the bathroom. No small number of children and teens have gotten into 'same sex' explorations, and little kids been known to have a certain fascination with their own poop.
So your statement
Pilt: Plus, that same image is not actually humiliating, but simply disgusting or undesirable.
vastly oversimplifies things, esp. where sexual and excretory matters are concerned. Certainly semen and piss and menstrual blood are 'disgusting' to many; but maybe not *simply* so. And in any case, judging by literotica stories, some of these same 'disgusting' substances *have also* a fascinating quality to large numbers of people.
However, if it's more agreeable to some, we'll stipulate that any corruption or 'warping' works from pre-existing 'seeds' (slight, maybe unacknowledged tendencies).
In particular, it's certainly true that repetition can lead to indifference (familiarity breeds contempt). This is a fact that is frequently NOT noted (or dealt with): That a whipping, just like sex, can get to be fairly predictable. Where the excitement dies, so does part of the erotism.
I don't really want to debate, in the abstract, about the difficulty of training a perversion or corruption. You agree that, at least occasionally it can be done. In psych lab, we once developed a conditioned reflex, in a human, in a very few (<5 iirc) hours.
I wonder why so many are concerned to post "it can't be done." I suspect it's the old, 'everyone is something, from birth; all that happens is realizing one's innate leanings.' There's also the old piece of dom/me propaganda, 'I will draw out your true inner nature and bring you peace and fulfillment of true self.' Not, "For my amusement, I just might bring out some 'queer' leaning, to full flower in practice."
In one sense, though, I might concede, when a person develops a characteristic or leaning, that, in some sense, the 'seed' was there. This certainly may be the case for sexual leanings. (It's harder to see for a love of fine Spanish sherry.) Freud and others-- just look to your dreams-- hav remarked on how many perverse impulses there are in the average person. Not to say, serious agressive ones (i.e., such as could lead to murder).
From (I'll say) *many* childhoods is a wealth of material; early seed experiences, but it the nanny's vinyl boots, or hearing mom peeing in the bathroom. No small number of children and teens have gotten into 'same sex' explorations, and little kids been known to have a certain fascination with their own poop.
So your statement
Pilt: Plus, that same image is not actually humiliating, but simply disgusting or undesirable.
vastly oversimplifies things, esp. where sexual and excretory matters are concerned. Certainly semen and piss and menstrual blood are 'disgusting' to many; but maybe not *simply* so. And in any case, judging by literotica stories, some of these same 'disgusting' substances *have also* a fascinating quality to large numbers of people.
However, if it's more agreeable to some, we'll stipulate that any corruption or 'warping' works from pre-existing 'seeds' (slight, maybe unacknowledged tendencies).
Pure
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Hi N,
You would have made a fine philosophy professor.
Pure said, //Another of your examples occurs to me: Having the male sub masturbate onto a plate and eat the semen. Initially, yes, you could call it win (the O)/ cost (revolting eating task). IF this is pursued in a certain way, however, the cost with become (also) the object of a depraved desire. That's the sort of 'warp' or 'corruption' I'm thinking about in this thread. //
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Netzach said,
Why?
Like, why is it not warped just to discover you didn't like being hit, and now you do?
I sure had to re-negotiate MY image of myself when I had that discovery - that this whipping thing could feel good to me, in a rather humbling way.
From your second sentence, we're pretty much in the same territory. You speak of being 'humbled.' You speak of 're negotiating' your image of yourself. This is the sort of thing I mean, perhaps more intense, as in somewhat ashamedly saying "Am I like that?"
So this is not a case of simply finding you now like something that you previously didn't like, as your first sentence on its own suggests. That's simply as, for instance, sometime in adulthood, I discovered I like brocolli. The 20 years before, I didn't. The self image does not come up.
While I've used the term 'warping,' I've also spoken or 'molding' or corrupting, and the general idea is pretty close to what you've said. NOT exactly encouraging the blooming of the rose, but the coming out of something with which the subordinate is surprised or uncomfortable or even ashamed, AND which is (at least partly) of the choice of the dominating person (for his/her own reasons).
You would have made a fine philosophy professor.
Pure said, //Another of your examples occurs to me: Having the male sub masturbate onto a plate and eat the semen. Initially, yes, you could call it win (the O)/ cost (revolting eating task). IF this is pursued in a certain way, however, the cost with become (also) the object of a depraved desire. That's the sort of 'warp' or 'corruption' I'm thinking about in this thread. //
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Netzach said,
Why?
Like, why is it not warped just to discover you didn't like being hit, and now you do?
I sure had to re-negotiate MY image of myself when I had that discovery - that this whipping thing could feel good to me, in a rather humbling way.
From your second sentence, we're pretty much in the same territory. You speak of being 'humbled.' You speak of 're negotiating' your image of yourself. This is the sort of thing I mean, perhaps more intense, as in somewhat ashamedly saying "Am I like that?"
So this is not a case of simply finding you now like something that you previously didn't like, as your first sentence on its own suggests. That's simply as, for instance, sometime in adulthood, I discovered I like brocolli. The 20 years before, I didn't. The self image does not come up.
While I've used the term 'warping,' I've also spoken or 'molding' or corrupting, and the general idea is pretty close to what you've said. NOT exactly encouraging the blooming of the rose, but the coming out of something with which the subordinate is surprised or uncomfortable or even ashamed, AND which is (at least partly) of the choice of the dominating person (for his/her own reasons).
Netzach
>semiotics?
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Interestingly, there was no cognizant Dominant party to say "ah hah!" and bring it out in me. It was simply a discovery I had on my own in the midst of a very mellow, no-agenda flogging for newbies flogging, which I had undergone in the vein of "good tops should know what it feels like, blah blah--" I simply hadn't expected to like it, and I did. I had seen myself as an inviolate tops' top to that point with no interest in my own masochism, in fact no belief that I could eroticize being hit.
rosco rathbone
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I was thinking about going sub the other day. I am bored with myself. All the romance has been squeezed out of this mastery shit.
H piltdown
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Hey Pure, thanks for caring, but the skull's fine. It's that damned jaw! Man, talk about TMJ. Whew! And, I was talkin' to Nebraska Man the other day...he's still havin' problems with that pig's tooth, too.
Anyway, I enjoed the subject, and thanks for bringing it up.
While, we MAY, (not a given), disagree about the real world application probability of behavior modification in issues of human sexuality, it is possible and does happen even outside of lab conditions. I think we can agree on that. I'll go on to add that a certain level of this negative 'concern' goes beyond the nature argument into the nurture argument. I think a lot of folks resist the notion since socially they may be considered 'weak minded' if they succumb to what might be construed as thought control. It get's pretty personal.
Agreed, but without, hopefully, seeming too Freudian, bodily fluids do have a leg up on most issues when considering what get's eroticized. Simple curiousity can lead an infant to 'play' with feces, but this curiousity often leads to the child's first major encounter with a childhood chock full 'private business' discipline.
Anyway, I enjoed the subject, and thanks for bringing it up.
Pure
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Netz: Now, begs the question, can you warp your own sexuality?
Yes, of course, in my own case regarding some bodily fluids. I don't have all the facts, but rr appears to be doing warping also, in respect of indulgence in rape fantasy.
Sade and some other pornsters designed their works to be material for self-corruption.
As you indicated (I believe) with your 'bi' person, exposure to gay porn likely may have an influence if that experience is structured and repeated under arousal conditions. And that choice and structure could well be self imposed.
People shape their own behavior frequently; an example being the minority of dieters who succeed, or of alcoholics who succeed with AA.
Yes, of course, in my own case regarding some bodily fluids. I don't have all the facts, but rr appears to be doing warping also, in respect of indulgence in rape fantasy.
Sade and some other pornsters designed their works to be material for self-corruption.
As you indicated (I believe) with your 'bi' person, exposure to gay porn likely may have an influence if that experience is structured and repeated under arousal conditions. And that choice and structure could well be self imposed.
People shape their own behavior frequently; an example being the minority of dieters who succeed, or of alcoholics who succeed with AA.
Marquis
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Pure said:
Good examples. It was necessary for me to highly warp my perceptions of satisfying food in order to lose the weight that I did. People often ask me if I still want to pig out on junk food and the answer is honestly no.
I'm not quite at the point where NOT working out makes me feel shitty, but I have genuine cravings for salad and lean protein.
A psychologist once told me that it takes a person about 15 consecutive conscious choices before said choice becomes the unconscious default.
catalina_francisco
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I found this article on behavioural modification in BDSM which might be interesting for the discussion.
Therapy and Behavioral Modification in BDSM
Francisco.
Therapy and Behavioral Modification in BDSM
Francisco.
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catalina_francisco
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Pure
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Thanks, Francisco. I note that that latter site leans much on the Internal Enslavement folks, whose fairly sophisticated (and sexist) approach has been the subject of other threads.
I want to mention a slight difference in the orientation being discussed in this thread. The point of BEST and IE is complete subjection and control. And the framework is 'straight' sexuality, i.e., 'normal' heterosexual orientation (which is why the slave is called 'she'.) Note the former's example agendas of 'cumming' (sic) on command, and partial orgasms. Note the difference with some of Netz's examples, e.g., conditioning to respond to gay porn.
These are certainly valid areas. What I'd add is the *shaping* of the orgasm response; its becoming corrupted, and/or being used to condition sexual response patterns that are, in Netzach's terms, not self-image congruent, disturbing, or in my terms, shameful or degrading. (Of course some of the IE examples, just because of the extreme subjection might be held to be intrinsically degrading.)
I want to mention a slight difference in the orientation being discussed in this thread. The point of BEST and IE is complete subjection and control. And the framework is 'straight' sexuality, i.e., 'normal' heterosexual orientation (which is why the slave is called 'she'.) Note the former's example agendas of 'cumming' (sic) on command, and partial orgasms. Note the difference with some of Netz's examples, e.g., conditioning to respond to gay porn.
These are certainly valid areas. What I'd add is the *shaping* of the orgasm response; its becoming corrupted, and/or being used to condition sexual response patterns that are, in Netzach's terms, not self-image congruent, disturbing, or in my terms, shameful or degrading. (Of course some of the IE examples, just because of the extreme subjection might be held to be intrinsically degrading.)
catalina_francisco
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Although IE is mostly straight lately they have acknowledged other sexualities. But that is beside the point, the article illustrates how to train a person to respond differently and to respond according to the wishes of the owner. The same strategies can be applied to train any person who is wiling to put themself through that process.
Although the IE folk world vision is completely warped they are very good at training slaves, I have seen it. They change their partners into mindless robots, I have seen lots of Gorean masters look very jealousy at the results.
Also you will notice the big difference with the first article that is basically treating BDSM and behaviour modification as therapy. This is why I chose these two articles, two very different goals using very similar techniques.
Francisco.
Although the IE folk world vision is completely warped they are very good at training slaves, I have seen it. They change their partners into mindless robots, I have seen lots of Gorean masters look very jealousy at the results.
Also you will notice the big difference with the first article that is basically treating BDSM and behaviour modification as therapy. This is why I chose these two articles, two very different goals using very similar techniques.
Francisco.
shy slave
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Netzach said:
When i started posting and before meeting Him I was not a pain slut nor could i understand the need for pain.
In line with pavlovs dogs and Skinners rats, i have been trying to 'train' myself to accept pain.
This has been over the last 8 months
Training has included masturbating whilst looking at pictures of subs recieving pain, reading about the pleasures of pain; thinking about recieving pain whilst masturbating.
It has also included a heavy dose of desire to please Him and accept the level of pain He wishes for me.
How much it has contributed to how I am now? I can't say.
It was and is, at best, subjective and experimental training.
I know I have begged Him for pain in order to orgasm (once and once only).
I know I need to be given pain on a regular basis in order not to go back to a time when the slightest pain could cause me to cry.
I guess only He can say how effective I have been in trying to increase my need and desire for pain over the past eight months.
I realise this is only my experience but I personally believe that warping sexuality is possible with the right conditioning, timing and circumstances.
Nor do I believe that a desire to please or succeed is necessary to warp anyone's psyche about anything.
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shy slave
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catalina_francisco said:There are many things not discussed around here Pure. I am surprised you haven't noticed that by now. Why? Mainly IME from those I have brought to the board because people feel it is not welcomed nor is the environment one where such things are usually discussed seriously and positively on a regular basis....it is unpredictable and has many limits imposed. Living it is more often than not fun, discussing it happens usually on closed boards and between small groups of people who share similar experiences and/or tastes, or at least an appreciation there can be more to it.
I have hopes we can move to that one day on Lit where it is more inclusive of the lifestyle as a whole, but for now it isn't working as it is not an environment where the majority want to or are willing to stray outside the expected and middle of the road type flavour. I respect that as the wishes of this community and for those more in depth discussions about more serious issues that confront those within a D/s relationship I go to a community where that is acceptable. All discussion boards will have their own accepted flavour, sometimes it can grow and sometimes it can't.
Catalina
personally i think its a shame when certain issues are discussed in-depth or the threads die due to others seeing only thier way as the right way.
Another thread discusses the intolerance of 'other people' and how some people are not open-minded as they say.
The world of BDSM appears very similiar at times.
I am someone who wants to learn & explore, before deciding what to think, do and believe.
If it is difficult to discuss issues here, due to dissenting voices, then where is a safe place to discuss them
Pure
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Hi Francisco,
Thanks for drawing attention to the differences of the two articles. Just now I read the first, and want to comment on the BDSM as therapy concept:
{Title} "Therapy and Behavioral Modification in BDSM"
excerpt:
Often therapeutic BDSM goes no further than that -- the reinforcement of the feeling that one is loved and is capable of love, no matter what one's flaws or previous experiences of life.
But some therapeutic BDSM goes further. For example, it is common for tops and doms to reassure bottoms and subs about their self-images and insecurities, or even to engineer play and aftercare to reinforce positive, beneficial self-views. A person without some inner doubts about his or her beauty, intelligence, competence, or desirability is rare. D/S offers a natural framework whereby the dom can sometimes offer the submissive reassurances and positive experiences bearing on all kinds of self-doubts.
While I wouldn't deny the choice of any two people, for one to be the psycho- or behavioral therapist for the other, I don't see the above therapeutic goals as having much affinity to DS or SM. These goals are on an orthogonal dimension.
I see DS or SM practices as analogous to 'dating' [or 'living together', if it's that] behavior: One has a responsibility under the law, and generally a responsibility not to seriously injure or cause psychic trauma. Further, one, through consideration (e.g. of their orgasm) is going to get more enjoyment (you catch more bees with honey), so it's not a bad idea.
But no one has a responsibility to provide therapy to 'date' (or spouse) and there are good reasons NOT to undertake it. In any case, it's fine, IMO, to take the 'date' as an adult who'll look after themselves.
The goal of 'corrupting' 'warping' or 'molding' a partner does not have much in common with providing them with therapy or 'therapeutic self-esteem boost.' But I take it part of your point is a similarity of *method*, and that seems to be the case.
Thanks for drawing attention to the differences of the two articles. Just now I read the first, and want to comment on the BDSM as therapy concept:
{Title} "Therapy and Behavioral Modification in BDSM"
excerpt:
Often therapeutic BDSM goes no further than that -- the reinforcement of the feeling that one is loved and is capable of love, no matter what one's flaws or previous experiences of life.
But some therapeutic BDSM goes further. For example, it is common for tops and doms to reassure bottoms and subs about their self-images and insecurities, or even to engineer play and aftercare to reinforce positive, beneficial self-views. A person without some inner doubts about his or her beauty, intelligence, competence, or desirability is rare. D/S offers a natural framework whereby the dom can sometimes offer the submissive reassurances and positive experiences bearing on all kinds of self-doubts.
While I wouldn't deny the choice of any two people, for one to be the psycho- or behavioral therapist for the other, I don't see the above therapeutic goals as having much affinity to DS or SM. These goals are on an orthogonal dimension.
I see DS or SM practices as analogous to 'dating' [or 'living together', if it's that] behavior: One has a responsibility under the law, and generally a responsibility not to seriously injure or cause psychic trauma. Further, one, through consideration (e.g. of their orgasm) is going to get more enjoyment (you catch more bees with honey), so it's not a bad idea.
But no one has a responsibility to provide therapy to 'date' (or spouse) and there are good reasons NOT to undertake it. In any case, it's fine, IMO, to take the 'date' as an adult who'll look after themselves.
The goal of 'corrupting' 'warping' or 'molding' a partner does not have much in common with providing them with therapy or 'therapeutic self-esteem boost.' But I take it part of your point is a similarity of *method*, and that seems to be the case.
catalina_francisco
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shy slave said:personally i think its a shame when certain issues are discussed in-depth or the threads die due to others seeing only thier way as the right way.
Another thread discusses the intolerance of 'other people' and how some people are not open-minded as they say.
The world of BDSM appears very similiar at times.
I am someone who wants to learn & explore, before deciding what to think, do and believe.
If it is difficult to discuss issues here, due to dissenting voices, then where is a safe place to discuss them
I hear you shy and I guess the reality is the BDSM community is like any other group, that being a grouping of individuals, all with their own peculiarities and tastes. For me it has been valueable to remember when others do not share my experience or agree with me that firstly I don't always agree with them either so why should they with me, and secondly that growth usually happens when our views are challenged and we are forced to think from a different angle...doesn't always mean we change our views, though sometimes we do. I can no more deny myself that opportunity to grow than fly to the moon, and that is why I remain and continue to follow and contribute to the discussions here. There are many roads which lead to our shared destinations.
LOL, I am sure Pure can tell you we have very passionately agreed and disagreed in the past on particular topics, and might again some day, but we still appreciate the value of being able to have that choice and experience to discuss without the need to feel personally wounded and sworn enemies.
Seems each board has it's own accepted flavour and tolerance level, and that can change as months pass. I know here we have been accused of going too deep into discussions, not deep enough, too serious, too fun loving, too intellectual, not intellectual enough...all at a variety of timeframes and by a variety of posters with a variety of tastes and experiences....and it will likely always be that way, but also of value to those who take the time to be here and share their experiences both good and bad. Sometimes you just have to move past those who might want to close down particular discussions, and continue to explore the concepts in the interests of growth and exploration.
Catalina
(hijack over )
