watching the bodybuilder eat

[Senna Jawa]

I realize that "eat" is a poor, overused metaphor for oral sex,

Just in case: I was not saying, one way or another, that "eat" is an overused metaphor. I just said that it is a (virtually) dead metaphor, which is a technical term. Most of them are actually in the form of a kenning (or else people wouldn't know what you are talking about), but "eat" here would be indeed a (dead) metaphor.

however, I was not using it in that way here, and had no intent that it be perceived that way.

Maria, thou protest too much . It's the poem that counts, not the author's intentions. At Literotica, we are extra conditioned to read it sexually, especially when a woman is drooling over a man, who is biting a peach in the just right place.

I've writen about the mountains etc. Your poem is pretty much close to the top of its mountain (or "orbit", as I used to say). Angeline's man/man comment pushes it a bit higher on the slope. You could also consider variations which would amount to new poems (which would reside on different mountains, away from the slope of the present mountain), e.g.:

• a variation with the same contents but with a drastic change of language;
• a variation where the characters (of the lyrical subject and of the bodybuilder) are developed.

Perhaps you may invite people to supply their own versions--new poems, not just "improvements" and modifications. When it comes to "improvements" then take a step back and have a good look. The common situation would be that since your poem is good, the variations which are meant to be improvements are way poorer than the original.

Best regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Maria2394]

I have read through all of your suggestions and this is my first attempt at a rewrite.



Watching the Bodybuilder

Alone at break,
I watch his lips, he seems intent
to choose the perfect place
to bite into the peach
and I wonder if he imagines
its softness a lover,
or a simple food to nourish
his muscular body

I'm baffled by his lunch of cold oats,
his choice of tuna from a can.
No fried food, no sugar
he resembles nothing
of a typical man, and again
I study him at second break
more fruit, more oats
such dedication
to his purpose at hand

This particular man causes me worry,
perhaps I've not yet had
a real man

 

[Senna Jawa]

Goals

Maria, your original in the archive is infinitely better than your "first rewrite". And the mode: 1st rewrite, 2nd rewrite, 3rd rewrite... is counterproductive. Aimless rewrites lead nowhere. Make it:

• goal 1 ==> poem 1
• goal 2 ==> poem 2
• goal 3 ==> poem 3
• ...

I'd suggest as the first goal: 1. minimum words, no talk, info only, as much as possible let every word deserve to be in the poem. And let the second goal be like the first one, except that you 2. develop the characters. You may need to change the point of the poem too in that case. Third goal -- write a characteristic (exotic) poem: 3. muscles, muscles, muscles..., where you have muscles upon muscles. You need to do some research. Then you need to enter them-muscles (muscle names) into your poem organically.

******

Now look at all that junk in your rewrite (you need to remember painfully that you want to write poetry, and not your ideas--nobody cares about your ideas, sorry, just provide the meat):

He sits alone at first break

The olive stuff is all junk. Not a single word of it carries any poetry. Fortunately, you do not need "sits", "alone", "at first" -- these are all defaults, thus don't mention them, get rid of them. It'd be nice to do something about the repetitious "he". You have already "bodybuilder" in the title. Possibly, you can reuse it one time in the poem (I don't know, it depends). You use one time "man". What else? Poetry is not easy. Get to work. Find synonyms or descriptions of "bodybuilder" -- muscle mountain? Remember that you need to use them organically. They may carry new meanings and new images, so be careful to get the advantage and not a disadvantage of that new baggage.

Remember about multiple meanings of word "break". Can you take advantage of them? (But whatever you do, be discrete, don't alert your reader to your technique unless you want circus and/or Literotica high rating instead of poetry; BTW, showing off your technique is poor technique anyway).

...he seems intent
to choose the perfect place

The olive stuff is of course nothing but junk. The brown stuff is not too good either. Aim at more specific words than "choose" and "place".

The whole line:

and I wonder if he imagines

is junk. It is also awkward -- overly logical and overly grammatical. If you were writing a high school essay, then... never mind, you are not writing any high school essay.

Etc. etc. I got a bit tired, thus let me stop now. Just let me add: avoid writing about any intentions, or about what something seems to somebody -- all that stuff that happens inside the head is most of the time a no-no for the poet, it should not be in the poem, it kills poetry. (There are exceptions but for the moment just don't count on them; for practice it is important to write poems according to some rules and restrictions). Also, be brave, don't have such pussy words like "perhaps" (near the end of your poem) or "some" or "almost" or "nearly" or any other which qualifies the degree or amount in a fuzzy way. Find non-lazy, poetic ways to describe the degree or amount, or give up on such unnecessary precision -- it kills poetry.

Good luck,

Senna Jawa

 

[Cub4ucme]

Maria,

I'm surprised to inform you that I happen to agree with
most of Senna's advice.

It seems a waste of my time to go any further here.

Infact, I can't see any purpose for this thread at this
point.

For the most part you ignored the advice and made
a bad poem worse.

best,
andy

 

[Senna Jawa]

don't have such pussy words like "perhaps" (...) or "some" or "almost" or "nearly" or any other which qualifies the degree or amount in a fuzzy way. Find non-lazy, poetic ways to describe the degree or amount, or give up on such unnecessary precision -- it kills poetry.

Other such words are rarely, often, .... Words like

always
never
all
nothing
everything
every
completely
​

are as bad

(It's just a general observation).

Regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[WickedEve]

Maria, this could be cutting it back too much, and I'm not sure if "jaw flex" works. I'm trying to think of something a bodybuilder does, like flex, lift, ect.


Muscle Lunch

I watch his jaw flex
for oats and plain tuna,
no sweets, but fruit
to bite into. I'm a peach
for a real man.

 

[Maria2394]

Maria,

I'm surprised to inform you that I happen to agree with
most of Senna's advice.

It seems a waste of my time to go any further here.

Infact, I can't see any purpose for this thread at this
point.

For the most part you ignored the advice and made
a bad poem worse.

best,
andy

Now Andy, please dont go getting all belligerant again. How would I know the second version was awful if you 2 didnt tell me? That in itself is the purpose of the thread. I did incorporate your change into that rewrite/version. I do appreciate your imput, however if you wish to not participate, I just say, fare thee well.



m

 

[Maria2394]

Maria, this could be cutting it back too much, and I'm not sure if "jaw flex" works. I'm trying to think of something a bodybuilder does, like flex, lift, ect.


Muscle Lunch

I watch his jaw flex
for oats and plain tuna,
no sweets, but fruit
to bite into. I'm a peach
for a real man.

Eve, so far I think I'm liking this one best of all

 

[Maria2394]

Maria, your original in the archive is infinitely better than your "first rewrite". And the mode: 1st rewrite, 2nd rewrite, 3rd rewrite... is counterproductive. Aimless rewrites lead nowhere. Make it:

• goal 1 ==> poem 1
• goal 2 ==> poem 2
• goal 3 ==> poem 3
• ...

Senna, you have pointed out what I have done wrong, given me a starting point. Thank you. LIke I said, I try too hard sometimes.


I'd suggest as the first goal: 1. minimum words, no talk, info only, as much as possible let every word deserve to be in the poem. And let the second goal be like the first one, except that you 2. develop the characters. You may need to change the point of the poem too in that case. Third goal -- write a characteristic (exotic) poem: 3. muscles, muscles, muscles..., where you have muscles upon muscles. You need to do some research. Then you need to enter them-muscles (muscle names) into your poem organically.


sort of like,

"a bicep curls
he lifts fork to mouth"?

******

Now look at all that junk in your rewrite (you need to remember painfully that you want to write poetry, and not your ideas--nobody cares about your ideas, sorry, just provide the meat):

He sits alone at first break

The olive stuff is all junk. Not a single word of it carries any poetry. Fortunately, you do not need "sits", "alone", "at first" -- these are all defaults, thus don't mention them, get rid of them. It'd be nice to do something about the repetitious "he". You have already "bodybuilder" in the title. Possibly, you can reuse it one time in the poem (I don't know, it depends). You use one time "man". What else? Poetry is not easy. Get to work. Find synonyms or descriptions of "bodybuilder" -- muscle mountain? Remember that you need to use them organically. They may carry new meanings and new images, so be careful to get the advantage and not a disadvantage of that new baggage.

I agree, I agree!! and Senna, I promise you, I have not ignored anything you have said, I am appreciative.

Remember about multiple meanings of word "break". Can you take advantage of them? (But whatever you do, be discrete, don't alert your reader to your technique unless you want circus and/or Literotica high rating instead of poetry; BTW, showing off your technique is poor technique anyway).

...he seems intent
to choose the perfect place

The olive stuff is of course nothing but junk. The brown stuff is not too good either. Aim at more specific words than "choose" and "place".

The whole line:

and I wonder if he imagines

is junk. It is also awkward -- overly logical and overly grammatical. If you were writing a high school essay, then... never mind, you are not writing any high school essay.

Etc. etc. I got a bit tired, thus let me stop now. Just let me add: avoid writing about any intentions, or about what something seems to somebody -- all that stuff that happens inside the head is most of the time a no-no for the poet, it should not be in the poem, it kills poetry. (There are exceptions but for the moment just don't count on them; for practice it is important to write poems according to some rules and restrictions). Also, be brave, don't have such pussy words like "perhaps" (near the end of your poem) or "some" or "almost" or "nearly" or any other which qualifies the degree or amount in a fuzzy way. Find non-lazy, poetic ways to describe the degree or amount, or give up on such unnecessary precision -- it kills poetry.

Good luck,

Senna Jawa

Thank you, Senna. I will work harder, I promise.

 

[Cub4ucme]

Now Andy, please dont go getting all belligerant again. How would I know the second version was awful if you 2 didnt tell me? That in itself is the purpose of the thread. I did incorporate your change into that rewrite/version. I do appreciate your imput, however if you wish to not participate, I just say, fare thee well.



m

I didn't mean to sound that way.

Sometimes the Internet doesn't work as well as we'd like it to
when it comes to reading someones intentions.

I was a bit frustrated because I was looking for more from
you on this poem. I wasn't angry, or upset.


A few things to consider. Don't write like you're writing
a story and don't leave words in your poetry that
don't need to be there.

I have read your poetry, and I know you can do more
with this one.

I hope to see it. Don't give up on it.
This is a process and I apologize if
I came across too harshly.

I was looking forward to your rewrite
and it left me feeling a bit disappointed, that's all.

best,
andy

 

[Maria2394]

I didn't mean to sound that way.

Sometimes the Internet doesn't work as well as we'd like it to
when it comes to reading someones intentions.

I was a bit frustrated because I was looking for more from
you on this poem. I wasn't angry, or upset.


A few things to consider. Don't write like you're writing
a story and don't leave words in your poetry that
don't need to be there.

I have read your poetry, and I know you can do more
with this one.

I hope to see it. Don't give up on it.
This is a process and I apologize if
I came across too harshly.

I was looking forward to your rewrite
and it left me feeling a bit disappointed, that's all.

best,
andy

Andy,
I agree with all of the points that you listed above. My first forte into writing WAS short stories and that method can be difficult to abandon.

I did feel lke you were losing patience and that is disheartening. Thank you for your explanation of why you said what you said. This IS difficult for me. This IS the first time I ever put a poem up for critique. I just ask patience



thats all

 

[Maria2394]

watching the bodybuilder

a bicep curls
he lifts fork to mouth
tuna from a can, fresh fruit
sustenance for {his} muscles

 

[Cub4ucme]

Andy,
I agree with all of the points that you listed above. My first forte into writing WAS short stories and that method can be difficult to abandon.

I did feel lke you were losing patience and that is disheartening. Thank you for your explanation of why you said what you said. This IS difficult for me. This IS the first time I ever put a poem up for critique. I just ask patience



thats all

You've got it!

Just don't give up on the process please.

It takes some guts to do what you are doing.
Just remember to separate YOURSELF from the POEM.

It's a learning process for me as well.
When I read other critiques I may well
see things I didn't recognize myself.

best,
andy

 

[Maria2394]

I was thinking about the useage of the medical terms for various muscles

buccal= cheek

quads in his legs

so many people have never had any medical courses and I am wondering, how far should I go when incorporating the technical names for his muscles into a poem. What about those who have no clue what they are?

sigh


m

 

[Maria2394]

You've got it!

Just don't give up on the process please.

It takes some guts to do what you are doing.
Just remember to separate YOURSELF from the POEM.

It's a learning process for me as well.
When I read other critiques I may well
see things I didn't recognize myself.

best,
andy

you saw the one above? Is it even a teeny bit better?

I never meant that you werent a good poet. Im sorry if you thought that.

m

 

[champagne1982]

watching the bodybuilder eat

He has fruit at first break.
I watch his lips and drool
as he chooses just the right place to bite.
Does he imagine the softness of the peach a lover
or merely a piece of food for consumption?
I can only wonder.
His cold oats at lunch baffle me
and how he likes tuna straight from the can.
This man makes me worry-
perhaps I haven't yet had
a real man.

Hi Maria,

I've found myself with a bit of creative time at my disposal today since (YAY!) I've finished my 30 in 30 run. I'd like to give you a couple of ideas.

When I read the title without the extraneous eat, I'm left with an image of a construction worker who happens to be building the edifice called body. I think this is the kenning construct that Senna is talking about.

Moving it forward from that point becomes easy. His food becomes the construction material; his lips and teeth the tools he uses. We love to watch buildings going up, the machinery as it works and the actual lines of the structure when it all comes together.

His fingers as they turn the peach are the big cranes hoisting blocks up to the waiting workers. The cold oats and tuna in a metal can take on new dimensions if you consider one as the sand and lime going into the mixer to come out concrete, the other as iron being carried in a crucible and poured to become the steel reinforcing rods.

I'd like to see what you can do with these thoughts, I know it will be pretty interesting.

 

[Liar]

I was thinking about the useage of the medical terms for various muscles

buccal= cheek

quads in his legs

so many people have never had any medical courses and I am wondering, how far should I go when incorporating the technical names for his muscles into a poem. What about those who have no clue what they are?

sigh

My question to you then would be; why would you want to do that? What would it add that wasn't alerady there? I can't see that anatomy is a theme in the poem before, and to introduce that seems only confusing to me, and I thnk it might distance readers from the situation with clinical terms. But I'm not all that good at pre-critique. Make an attempt and see how it fares out.

 

[Cub4ucme]

My question to you then would be; why would you want to do that? What would it add that wasn't alerady there? I can't see that anatomy is a theme in the poem before, and to introduce that seems only confusing to me, and I thnk it might distance readers from the situation with clinical terms. But I'm not all that good at pre-critique. Make an attempt and see how it fares out.

I don't see where taking the poem in another direction is
the answer for now here. The idea is to take the poem
as it was and based on critique make it better.

Sure, senna and champagnes ideas about adding anatomy,
or using a metaphor for the construction of a building
are good ideas.

However, that would create another poem for another day even
if you were to use this poem as the basis for it.

My opinion is to not complicate the issue yet.


It would be better to take away from the poem than
to add to it for the sake of learning to construct
poetry in a more compact manner.

Just my take.

best,
andy

 

[Senna Jawa]

Eve, so far I think I'm liking this one best of all

Maria, and others, be nice and kind and polite but stop that fake kindness. Eve is good, she writes interesting stuff, but somehow Eve is uneven, and here she has produced some nothing and no more. I'll let you figure it out for yourself. (Eve is uneven because she's still in dark, I suspect, so she stumbles).

Best regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Senna Jawa]

watching the bodybuilder

a bicep curls
he lifts fork to mouth
tuna from a can, fresh fruit
sustenance for {his} muscles

Hi masochistic Maria I am not sure what is the purpose of your 4-line phrase. The last line does not belong to poetry (except for funny, exotic circumstances). In general, avoid such abstractions and statements-talk-declarations-KnowledgeSummary-blahBlah.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Cub4ucme]

you saw the one above? Is it even a teeny bit better?

I never meant that you werent a good poet. Im sorry if you thought that.

m

Maria,

Seriously, I never gave that any consideration. It doesn't concern me if you think I am a good poet, or not. Please, don't take that the wrong way.
I'm thick skinned by now when it comes to personalities and poetry.

I know where I sit as a poet based on where I was some time ago
and where I want to be later.

What we are discussing here is your poem. I don't see why you can't
take the original poem and reduce it from a little story into a poem.

Think in terms of impact and removal.

What is it that matters most?

What is it that the poem can do without.

If you can get those tools and ideas down in this short poem than
you can use the same techniques again and again.

Take each line and ask yourself does this have an impact
on the vibe and vision I am trying to relate with as few
words as possible?

Can I say it in a more refined and impacting way?

When you have done that repost the SAME poem
and see what responses you get.

Please, don't attach yourself tightly to the poem.
It's not you, it's something you experienced and
wrote about.

best,
andy

 

[Angeline]

Maria, my dear sister, this is the point where you walk away from the poem for a few days to get some perspective. This has happened to me many times: I get a lot of different ideas and I work the poem to the point where I'm grasping at straws to try to find some "perfect" phrasing. In the process I manage to lose what started as a decent idea for a poem in a morass of words.

We have similar writing styles and they are not simplistic--and I don't mean simplistic in a bad way, just that neither of us tend to write with Senna's economy of words. I think your original poem was better than your revised version because it used pretty simple phrasing to make its point. That can be powerful. I like Senna's comment to just say what you say, etc. I don't think either of our styles are inconsistent with that: it's just a matter of reminding yourself what you originally wanted to get across and then saying that as succinctly as possible. You probably can't do that tonight (or maybe even tomorrow), but if you give yourself a rest and not worry about performing for this thread (I know I would be doing that if it were my poem), it'll come back to you. I have faith in your talent.

 

[Maria2394]

Maria, my dear sister, this is the point where you walk away from the poem for a few days to get some perspective. This has happened to me many times: I get a lot of different ideas and I work the poem to the point where I'm grasping at straws to try to find some "perfect" phrasing. In the process I manage to lose what started as a decent idea for a poem in a morass of words.

We have similar writing styles and they are not simplistic--and I don't mean simplistic in a bad way, just that neither of us tend to write with Senna's economy of words. I think your original poem was better than your revised version because it used pretty simple phrasing to make its point. That can be powerful. I like Senna's comment to just say what you say, etc. I don't think either of our styles are inconsistent with that: it's just a matter of reminding yourself what you originally wanted to get across and then saying that as succinctly as possible. You probably can't do that tonight (or maybe even tomorrow), but if you give yourself a rest and not worry about performing for this thread (I know I would be doing that if it were my poem), it'll come back to you. I have faith in your talent.

Thank you. angeline. I was getting discouraged. I am notholding that particular poem close to heart, if I had, I would not have put it here. Ther eis just so much, so many thing sto absorb. I am not ungrateful, but your idea is fabulous. Im going to work with hubby tomorrow, we are f elling trees for firewood.

giant hugs, sweet sister



julie

 

[Maria2394]

Hi masochistic Maria I am not sure what is the purpose of your 4-line phrase. The last line does not belong to poetry (except for funny, exotic circumstances). In general, avoid such abstractions and statements-talk-declarations-KnowledgeSummary-blahBlah.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

SENNA!! you got me pegged with the masochism thing.

( I should have told you not to spill ALL my secrets, you are a grand teacher.)

 

[Maria2394]

Maria,

Seriously, I never gave that any consideration. It doesn't concern me if you think I am a good poet, or not. Please, don't take that the wrong way.
I'm thick skinned by now when it comes to personalities and poetry.

I know where I sit as a poet based on where I was some time ago
and where I want to be later.

What we are discussing here is your poem. I don't see why you can't
take the original poem and reduce it from a little story into a poem.

Think in terms of impact and removal.

What is it that matters most?

What is it that the poem can do without.

If you can get those tools and ideas down in this short poem than
you can use the same techniques again and again.

Take each line and ask yourself does this have an impact
on the vibe and vision I am trying to relate with as few
words as possible?

Can I say it in a more refined and impacting way?

When you have done that repost the SAME poem
and see what responses you get.

Please, don't attach yourself tightly to the poem.
It's not you, it's something you experienced and
wrote about.

best,
andy

Well, Andy, I have been trying. BUt there is a huge amount of disgreement as to what constitutes a good poem and what shoudl be and shoudl not be included. I am at the point now of confusion. I knwo I have writen some good works, and SJ invited me to work on this, I agreed.

I appreciate your imput, as well as Liars, and Eves and Annas and everyone else who has offered advice.

Believe me when I say this, I am NOT afraid of criticism, I am NOT afraid to learn, and I also know where I was a while back and where I want to be.
Personally, I believe personality IS an oimportant part of poetry otherwise we woudl all sound just alike and that would be some sorry-ased poetry, in my opinion.

best wishes, Im off to watch football, for inspiration, of course



m