watching the bodybuilder eat

[Senna Jawa]

This & that

Angeline has beat me to the punch (is this the idiom?) by telling Maria to take it easy for at least few days. The collective advisory board )) may be overwhelming. Also, of a long list of possible goals one should choose just one at the time. A version with medical terms is a possibility (there has to be a strategic, artistic idea though). A narrative poem could easily be great too -- a number of great poets have enjoyed writing narrative poetry, fables, etc. But it is simpler to work on one goal at the time.

Without any auxiliary or hidden message, just for enjoyment, one may read:

As you eat white asparagus with mayonnaise​

by one of the great poets of 90ies, Michael McNeilly.

BTW, Michael wrote several great, narrative poems, small stories.

Maria, consider inviting others to write their variations of your poem. One person cannot write them all

But if you wanted to write a version with more about her and him, then possibly you may like to make her a construction worker, who comes to the gym casually (she may be on the dancing floor more often than in the gym), while the guy is a serious body builder, concerned with the art of developing each of his muscles for the purpose of the competitions, a muscle after a muscle. She's more iinto dancing. I was thinking along such tensions, different life situations & goals, different styles.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Maria2394]

Angeline has beat me to the punch (is this the idiom?) by telling Maria to take it easy for at least few days. The collective advisory board )) may be overwhelming. Also, of a long list of possible goals one should choose just one at the time. A version with medical terms is a possibility (there has to be a strategic, artistic idea though). A narrative poem could easily be great too -- a number of great poets have enjoyed writing narrative poetry, fables, etc. But it is simpler to work on one goal at the time.

Without any auxiliary or hidden message, just for enjoyment, one may read:

As you eat white asparagus with mayonnaise​

by one of the great poets of 90ies, Michael McNeilly.

BTW, Michael wrote several great, narrative poems, small stories.

Maria, consider inviting others to write their variations of your poem. One person cannot write them all

But if you wanted to write a version with more about her and him, then possibly you may like to make her a construction worker, who comes to the gym casually (she may be on the dancing floor more often than in the gym), while the guy is a serious body builder, concerned with the art of developing each of his muscles for the purpose of the competitions, a muscle after a muscle. She's more iinto dancing. I was thinking along such tensions, different life situations & goals, different styles.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

Hugs, to you, Senna Jawa
I was a bit afraid you might be disappointed if I stepped back to study this one. I am revisiting my long lost frogs, the ones who loved me without reason.

The asparagus poem is wonderful. Thank you for the link.

I have learned and will continue to learn. Thanks for not giving up on me!!!




julie w

 

[champagne1982]

Hi Senna,

I have a quick question, if I may? On your two threads I have made some derivative comments from a post of Angeline's and then regarding Maria's poem here about what I think you mean when you discuss kenning use in poetry. So, am I close to understanding this correctly or am I so far out to lunch that I should avoid misinterpreting the definition and stop misleading other people?

Ok, so I managed to open another window without my computer dying and I found the follwoing explanation of kenning:

Kennings

The kenning is an Anglo-Saxon literary device, very common in Anglo-Saxon poetry, in which a new noun or noun phrase is coined to replace a more familiar noun. Examples from Anglo-Saxon poetry including calling the sea the whaleroad, a sword a battlefriend, the body a bonehouse. Essentially, they are metaphorical circumlocutions, describing a well-known noun in a new way which gives information about its qualities and characteristics. In contemporary poetry and in developing understanding of poetry with young writers the kenning forces displacement of the familiar and invites deeper thinking about how to describe and encapsulate the ordinary in an extraordinary way.

Now this makes sense to me, but I'm failing to understand how kenning is different from metaphor except that kennings (according to this definition) are used with nouns. If I refer to "fingers" as "twigs," for example, am I using a kenning? A metaphor? Both?

I think your example is a metaphor, if you had refered to fingers as twigbones it would work. I believe you need to find a new word that serves as a metaphor but yet describes the noun without referencing an actual image. ie: Twig makes me think of tree or shrub whereas twigbones juxtaposes the tree onto animal to arrive at claws or fingers if you follow it through a logical progression.

watching the bodybuilder eat

He has fruit at first break.
I watch his lips and drool
as he chooses just the right place to bite.
Does he imagine the softness of the peach a lover
or merely a piece of food for consumption?
I can only wonder.
His cold oats at lunch baffle me
and how he likes tuna straight from the can.
This man makes me worry-
perhaps I haven't yet had
a real man.

<snip>When I read the title without the extraneous eat, I'm left with an image of a construction worker who happens to be building the edifice called body. I think this is the kenning construct that Senna is talking about. </snip>.

 

[Senna Jawa]

about kenning & kenning like expression

am I close to understanding this <kennings> correctly [...]?

You need to see the differences between the following groups:

• whaleroad (the road of a whale), horseocean (the ocean of a horse), treebones (the bones of a tree)
• dogtwigs (the twigs of a dog)
• twigbone (the bone of a twig), bonetwig (the twig of a bone)

The difference between the groups (a) and (b) is relatively subtle. The difference between (a)&(b) versus (c) is dramatic.

In the group (a) we have skaldic kennings of the ocean, prairie, and of the branches of a tree (as opposed to leaves).

The example (b) provides a description of dog's limbs (legs). But as a kenning of limbs (legs) it is messed up -- you can't really say comfortably, without risk of being laughed at, you can't say "the dogtwigs of this horse are graceful". I could say more but it'd be boring. You can see what's going on.

Neither of the examples of group (c) is a kenning. Perhaps each of them can be viewed as what I identified as an extraction, where you extract a feature of a subject and then you nearly identify the two. You may say that being twig-like is a feature of bones. Thus you may say "the twig of the bone" to say that this bone's important aspect is its twigness . Or you may emphasize the bony aspect of the twigs. We see that here we are dealing virtually with a simile, where we point to the near equivalence (similarity) of the notion of a twig and of a bone. Thus this is a poor example of an extraction.

Let me provide a better example:

the moon's yellow smile drove me mad"
​

Here you are extracting "smile" as a feature of the moon, and then you are nearly identifying moon with the impression of smile which moon may make on us. Here is the corresponding kenning:

the yellow smile of the night sky drove me mad"
​

Now "yellow smile" is a kenning of Moon.

BTW, the default for sky is the daytime sky. Hence the yellow smile of sky is a kenning of Sun.

Conclusion: twigbone is not a kenning (or a hopelessly weak kenning if you insist that twigbone means the inside part of the twig (the twig minus its bark -- it's not worth the trouble).

Best regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Senna Jawa]

(my connection had problem, never mind)

 

[Senna Jawa]

Maria, this could be cutting it back too much, ...

No, Eve, that's not the problem, not at all.

Muscle Lunch

I watch his jaw flex
for oats and plain tuna,
no sweets, but fruit
to bite into. I'm a peach
for a real man.

​

Translations, or multiple versions, provide an excellent material for learning poetry. You simply look at the differences between the different versions. That's where poetry resides.

Now, Eve, you can appreciate how good was Maria's original, and how lousy is your variation. You have provided an excellent illustration.

Indeed, the strength of Maria's poem is that she did NOT tell us that the lyrical subject longed to be, so to speak, a peach eaten by the bodybuilder. But you, Eve, did
-- you didn't leave it to the reader.

I've seen recognized, respected translators doing exactly the same mistake. They would be proud of their understanding of the original. and then they would insert their understanding explicitly(!) into the translated text, does killing the poetry of the original. Less is more. Eve, you didn't say too little in your version, as you were afraid, but just the opposite -- you said too much.

I told you guys, didn't I, that when the original is good then the variations are often much poorer.

Best regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Cub4ucme]

A narrative poem could easily be great too -- a number of great poets have enjoyed writing narrative poetry, fables, etc.
Without any auxiliary or hidden message, just for enjoyment, one may read:

BTW, Michael wrote several great, narrative poems, small stories.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

A narrative poem is not a short-story.

If it were it would be called a SHORT-STORY


I didn't have to click your provided link to read the poem you
decided to share here. I can tell you without doing
so it was meant for line/breaks and would not do
well in paragraph form.

That was my point.

To imply in any poetry forum that a narrative poem
is akin to a short story is absurd. Then to introduce
the word fable into the equation is another great leap.
You do so much injustice to the art of poetry every day
with your implications and hollow based conclusions.

Read "Howl" which is probably the most famous narrative
poem of our time. Then pick up a copy of Readers Digest.

Get back to me when you understand the difference between
a short story and narrative poetry.

best,
andy

 

[Cub4ucme]

No, Eve, that's not the problem, not at all.



Translations, or multiple versions, provide an excellent material for learning poetry. You simply look at the differences between the different versions. That's where poetry resides.

Best regards,

Senna Jawa

There is much validity to your statement however, to skip the
first step of the critique process defies the whole process
of growth.

First, one should take the INITIAL poem and rework it based
on critique, critical thought, applied skill, and opinion.

When that process is complete and the poet is certain they
can no longer do anything more productive with the poem
as it sits then any option is open and invited.

You don't take a poem that you haven't finished working on
and then go off on tangients with any expectations of becoming
a better poet. It's a thoughtless process with little or no
chance for growth.


On the other hand if a poet learned something in the process
of fighting with a poem for a week or so (with rest inbetween
being a known and well accepted option) he/she is more apt
to write a better poem the next time. Whether it is based
on the subject matter of the original poem or not.


On another subject: Kennings are not all that difficult to understand.

Here is a link which lists many of them.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kennings


If one were to read the list by the end they should be clear on
the definition as well as the word use.

Of course, I could write four paragraphs explaining it all but, I won't.

It's much more easily understood by viewing the link above.


best,
andy

 

[Angeline]

You need to see the differences between the following groups:

• whaleroad (the road of a whale), horseocean (the ocean of a horse), treebones (the bones of a tree)
• dogtwigs (the twigs of a dog)
• twigbone (the bone of a twig), bonetwig (the twig of a bone)

The difference between the groups (a) and (b) is relatively subtle. The difference between (a)&(b) versus (c) is dramatic.

In the group (a) we have skaldic kennings of the ocean, prairie, and of the branches of a tree (as opposed to leaves).

The example (b) provides a description of dog's limbs (legs). But as a kenning of limbs (legs) it is messed up -- you can't really say comfortably, without risk of being laughed at, you can't say "the dogtwigs of this horse are graceful". I could say more but it'd be boring. You can see what's going on.

Neither of the examples of group (c) is a kenning. Perhaps each of them can be viewed as what I identified as an extraction, where you extract a feature of a subject and then you nearly identify the two. You may say that being twig-like is a feature of bones. Thus you may say "the twig of the bone" to say that this bone's important aspect is its twigness . Or you may emphasize the bony aspect of the twigs. We see that here we are dealing virtually with a simile, where we point to the near equivalence (similarity) of the notion of a twig and of a bone. Thus this is a poor example of an extraction.

Let me provide a better example:

the moon's yellow smile drove me mad"
​

Here you are extracting "smile" as a feature of the moon, and then you are nearly identifying moon with the impression of smile which moon may make on us. Here is the corresponding kenning:

the yellow smile of the night sky drove me mad"
​

Now "yellow smile" is a kenning of Moon.

BTW, the default for sky is the daytime sky. Hence the yellow smile of sky is a kenning of Sun.

Conclusion: twigbone is not a kenning (or a hopelessly weak kenning if you insist that twigbone means the inside part of the twig (the twig minus its bark -- it's not worth the trouble).

Best regards,

Senna Jawa

Ok, Senna so am I correct in assuming that if I use the term "housebeat" to indicate the noises a house makes at night, as in:

"The housebeat speaks in midnight groans"

I am using a non-Skaldic kenning?

(I am not asking if it's a good kenning, mind you, just if it is one.)

Am I also correct in assuming that a Skaldic kenning unites animal and nature in a metaphoric way? All the examples I'm seeing are those types of noun combinations.

Be nice if I'm wrong. I'm trying to understand.

 

[Liar]

Morphology.

Just a nit-picking thought about kennings...

Should kennings in the English language really be one word? (Whaleroad as opposed to whale road)

Germanian based languages (including scandinavian ones, where most of the old kennings seems to hail from) has that morphology naturally and use it all the time, but English don't. You have your combined noun expressions of different kinds already without forging them into single words ("Cajun food", "city square"...). Angeline use one, "midnight groans" in the same sentence as the spaceless "housebeat". Looks inconsistent to me.

Does the morphem rules change just because it's a poetic device?

 

[Senna Jawa]

am I correct in assuming that if I use the term "housebeat" to indicate the noises a house makes at night, as in:

"The housebeat speaks in midnight groans"
​

I am using a non-Skaldic kenning?

Yes.

(I am not asking if it's a good kenning, mind you, just if it is one.)

Your "housebeat" is nice (while your phrase is of the type: margarine tasting like butter). Conceptually, it is not different from "homebuilder". In both cases words mean directly what they mean, there is no metaphor, no substitution.

When I extracted the most poetic subconcept of the whole, general kenning idea, I had to name it somehow. That special kind of kenning was created by skalds, hence I wanted to honor skalds. However, skalds were mixing it with other kennings. The result is a common confusion. All kind of examples are lumped together. It has occurred to me now, that the name "skaldic kenning" adds to the confusion. Thus today , for this special, poetically most valuable kenning, I am introducing a descriptive name diagonal kenning. This will help to absorb the idea. One will remember that such kennings are diagonals of certain squares. I'll write about it one more time, in that new thread, but this time I will title it "diagonal kennings".

Am I also correct in assuming that a Skaldic kenning unites animal and nature in a metaphoric way? All the examples I'm seeing are those types of noun combinations.

It's just a corollary of being good poetry. The text of a poem should be immersed in Nature, while it induces transcendental emotions and reflections which go beyond the text. So, good kennings are concrete.

There was a discussion on r.a.p. which has reflected a confusion about haikiu both being metaphoric and not allowing any metaphors. My answer wa and is the same as for the whole poetry: if a construction (say a metaphor) is internal to the text then it should be fully concrete. But the poem as a total (or any autonomous part of a larger work) should induce some abstract reaction (emotions, reflections), thus it should be metaphoric in that big (abstract) way.

Be nice if I'm wrong. I'm trying to understand.

I'll be nice by writing a post about diagonal kennings . In the past such posts prompted some poems on rap. I hope for a similar effect here too.

Regards,

Senna Jawa

 

[Senna Jawa]

Just a nit-picking thought about kennings...

Should kennings in the English language really be one word?

Only if one insists. But no, they shouldn't, you are right.

(Whaleroad as opposed to whale road)

Germanian based languages (including scandinavian ones, where most of the old kennings seems to hail from) has that morphology naturally and use it all the time, but English don't. You have your combined noun expressions of different kinds already without forging them into single words ("Cajun food", "city square"...). Angeline use one, "midnight groans" in the same sentence as the spaceless "housebeat". Looks inconsistent to me.

But she had fun

Does the morphem rules change just because it's a poetic device?

It'd be unnatural. One hould write simply "horse of the ocean" or "ocean's horse", etc., while "sea horse" is fish -- it's a dead metaphor (i.e. a dead kenning). Aactually, one hould be aware of such language traps.

Casual critics use the funny form because they do not consider kennings to be a living (not to mention lively) part of the present day poetry, they consider kenning to be an historical artifact; to casual critic kennings are dead.

Best regards,

Senna Jawa

PS. I've switched to my old keyboard. It eats my letters "s" (I have to get them back from its throat).

 

[TheRainMan]

great thread. no bullshit.

there's a lot to think about, a lot to agree with or disagree with, but it's (almost) all about poetry.

this is the type of thread that should make a poet want to come back here the next time they sit at their computer.

 

[annaswirls]

this is the type of thread that should make a poet want to come back here the next time they sit at their computer.

not if they are just looking for boobies and some braincandy before getting back to work


come on, just a wee sucker?


:running quickly before someone whacks me with a Kenning and Barbie Christmas Dance Figurines:

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

great thread. no bullshit.

there's a lot to think about, a lot to agree with or disagree with, but it's (almost) all about poetry.

this is the type of thread that should make a poet want to come back here the next time they sit at their computer.

I agree. It's informative and civilised.



Picks up some Spode with one eye on anna's departing backside.)

 

[LeBroz]

great thread. no bullshit.

there's a lot to think about, a lot to agree with or disagree with, but it's (almost) all about poetry.

this is the type of thread that should make a poet want to come back here the next time they sit at their computer.

.

And there's very little slinging of mud, or what's that other brown stuff? You're right on this point, the way this has been conducted I enjoy coming round to see what's being said. It almost feels like school's in session here; learning is possible and there aren't mangled bodies lying all about.

.

 

[Maria2394]

Hey Senna, I have a question about kennings..is THIS one??
It seems to fit the definition....

pottymouth





m#

 

[WickedEve]

Maria, and others, be nice and kind and polite but stop that fake kindness. Eve is good, she writes interesting stuff, but somehow Eve is uneven, and here she has produced some nothing and no more. I'll let you figure it out for yourself. (Eve is uneven because she's still in dark, I suspect, so she stumbles).

Best regards,

Senna Jawa

My poetry in general is uneven?
The example I gave Maria may be "lousy" but discuss that, if you wish, and not my shortcomings as a poet--at least, not in Maria's thread.

 

[Maria2394]

Dear Precious Wicked One

I hope you know that I adore your work. I dont aspire to be an imitation of any ONE poet here, but I like to think bits and pieces of many of you have rubbed off onto me and I like that.


You have inspired me to think about writing on subjects that would never have occurred to me before I read you.

Remember what I said about personality and poetry? It is my opinion that if we swept away our personalities, and our poetry sounded all the same, what would be the point of even writing? Thers only so much room for poets like Keats and Bukowski and so on and so on...

I just want to thank you for Conrad Dimple and The Dark Continent of SC and about a thousand others, oh, and BOb, we cant, musnt forget Bob



maria

 

[WickedEve]

Dear Precious Wicked One



maria

There's some good poetry discussions going on in this thread. So learn all you can while it's being offered. You're a good poet (and that's not fake kindness)

later

 

[Maria2394]

There's some good poetry discussions going on in this thread. So learn all you can while it's being offered. You're a good poet (and that's not fake kindness)

later

I know, Eve, and I wasnt being fake either

I am sucking up all the new stuff I can, but I am old and my brain cells are dwindling...

thank you

 

[WickedEve]

I know, Eve, and I wasnt being fake either

I am sucking up all the new stuff I can, but I am old and my brain cells are dwindling...

thank you

No, you weren't fake. I was referring to something senna said...
Anyway, you'll have to do what I did. Once you get all this advice on your poem, step back for awhile, then it'll be easier to revise it. I spent about a month on my poem Bread and worried Ange to death during the process. lol But finally some of her suggestions (and fly's) sunk in and inspired me to write a better poem.

 

[LeBroz]

No, you weren't fake. I was referring to something senna said...
Anyway, you'll have to do what I did. Once you get all this advice on your poem, step back for awhile, then it'll be easier to revise it. I spent about a month on my poem Bread and worried Ange to death during the process. lol But finally some of her suggestions (and fly's) sunk in and inspired me to write a better poem.

.

Well there, wicked lady, funny you should mention Bread as it is one of several I'll mention tomorrow as I dig through Lit's musty archives.

.

 

[Senna Jawa]

My poetry in general is uneven?

I hope so.

The example I gave Maria may be "lousy"

I meant to soften my statement in another post but in the meantime I had to switch to a different PC, and with a different operating system, and my keyboard doesn't want to give away letter "s", I have to beg it and pound on it...

but discuss that, if you wish, and not my shortcomings as a poet--at least, not in Maria's thread.

OK, Eve, you're even (I mean, you're even more uneven than you think) and your gloriously glaring shortcomings as a poet are undiscussable. It's new to me but I'll get used to it.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Hey Senna, I have a question about kennings..is THIS one??
It seems to fit the definition....

pottymouth

Perhaps. Term kenning is given by different people such a wide scope that it's almost useless. On the other hand, the diagonal kenning (see the other thread) is poetically incredibly powerful.

Best regards,

Senna Jawa