What does targeted, sweep-evading, story vandalism look like?

[MillieDynamite]

I don't hate people, but I do so abhor being cold.

One of the problems with hate is it starts out being selective. I hate him, I hate them. And it just becomes a way of being where you hate everyone and yourself most of all. It spreads like a brain cancer through your mind until your life consists of raging meaninglessly at clouds for reasons you can’t even remember, let alone articulate.

The other problem is the damage the hater does to the hated. I’ve not had a lot of IRL hate in my life, it’s mostly on-line BS. But I know many people are far less lucky than me. And I know the history of our country.

 

[ShelbyDawn57]

I don't hate people, but I do so abhor being cold.

You could. Move a few hundred miles further south. Just a thought.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I don't hate people, but I do so abhor being cold.

Yeah - me too. On both counts

 

[MillieDynamite]

Well, no, that'd put me back in Texas, and I had enough of Texas when I ran away three weeks shy of my 12th birthday.

You could. Move a few hundred miles further south. Just a thought.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

One of the problems with hate is it starts out being selective. I hate him, I hate them. And it just becomes a way of being where you hate everyone and yourself most of all. It spreads like a brain cancer through your mind until your life consists of raging meaninglessly at clouds for reasons you can’t even remember, let alone articulate.

The other problem is the damage the hater does to the hated. I’ve not had a lot of IRL hate in my life, it’s mostly on-line BS. But I know many people are far less lucky than me. And I know the history of our country.

Or the ones who rage at websites... those people have really gone off the deep end.

 

[Comshaw]

This thread is a perfect example of the toxicity of AH.
Someone makes a statement. People get really angry at the poster and insults follow. Nothing positive or creative is made.
This kind of thread disgusts me.
I thought AH was a place were "authors" supported other authors. Instead we insult each other or treat them like they are simpleton.
Some people care about ratings and some don't. If you don't, can you see why 1-bombing would upset someone who cares? If you care about ratings, can you learn from the ones who don't care about them?
How about we help each other instead of hitting each other with a flame thrower?

Perhaps you should go back and read the entire thread. Who tossed out the first insult? The OP posted their opinion on getting 1 bombed by trolls. PSG's post in #2 spot could be considered a bit sarcastic, but only a bit. There were 7 more posts that did not contain any insults toward the OP but did disagree with her or were internet shrugs. The first insults, in sarcasm form, appeared in posts 10 and 11 by *GASP* THE OP! There's an old saying, "you get what you give". It isn't a matter of "People get really angry at the poster and insults follow." It's more like EM gets pissy because someone disagrees with her and goes off insulting others, which frees some of those who were on the receiving end to retaliate. The right way to do it? Nope, but it happens.

Do you think we should all support someone who is throwing out a hypothesis, supported solely by circumstantial evidence, and claiming it is hard fact? Someone who gets pissy and throws a fit when anyone disagrees with her? I can't and won't, for her or you or anybody else. If I disagree with something said here, I WILL state my opinion. I try to do so without insult or denigration to the speaker. I manage that most times and slip a bit other times. (I ain't gunna claim t be a saint).

As far as your last question, if one makes a dubious claim or asks a question, they need to stop and listen to those who respond WITHOUT getting a twist in their panties and spewing invectives. Helping one another DOES NOT mean blind support. It means truthfully expressing our opinion on whatever subject is at hand. That's the only way you improve and become better.

As far as "toxcity" in this forum, damn dude this place is a kindergarten. Wander over that way → and you'll find the PB (Politics Board). Try that out for a bit, then come back and tell me how toxic this place is, if your hair isn't on fire before you get out of there.

Comshaw

 

[KittyOfSteele]

As far as "toxcity" in this forum, damn dude this place is a kindergarten. Wander over that way → and you'll find the PB (Politics Board). Try that out for a bit, then come back and tell me how toxic this place is, if your hair isn't on fire before you get out of there.

A while back the first page of AH had a lot of threads of people asking for help, not necessarily related with AI or other rejection reasons, and one of those threads that caught my eye is the OP dealing with plagiarism. The first sentence OP said was that they don't post here because there are gatekeepers in AH, and mentions a number of two. I disagree, and I think there's more.

On that page of threads of people asking for help, one of the most successful authors here (not EM) posted a meme that had an intent of being a "haha this is a funny video," but subtext-wise it said "if you act like this you are not welcome here." At that point in time, AH looked more like an IT support for writers, not a writing shitposting meme feed, so it threw me off.

I can call similar examples, but I'd be breaking the character limit again... twice. I'm not saying you're wrong (quite frankly I've been through worse in the music community, where people literally attempt to kill themselves because that's how bad it is), but saying that PB is worse is deflecting the core issue: AH has a similar problem, and we are all part of it, even if we pretend that we're not.

E: I'm beginning to think the toxicity is not intended to be a bug, but a feature. Just checked the rules, and I thought I saw a post about users being allowed to go out of their way unless we entered in proper wrong territory... I don't recall it well, but I've seen it. Regardless, take this with three tablespoons of Himalayan™ pink salt.

 

[DEFCOM5]

Perhaps you should go back and read the entire thread. Who tossed out the first insult? The OP posted their opinion on getting 1 bombed by trolls. PSG's post in #2 spot could be considered a bit sarcastic, but only a bit. There were 7 more posts that did not contain any insults toward the OP but did disagree with her or were internet shrugs. The first insults, in sarcasm form, appeared in posts 10 and 11 by *GASP* THE OP! There's an old saying, "you get what you give". It isn't a matter of "People get really angry at the poster and insults follow." It's more like EM gets pissy because someone disagrees with her and goes off insulting others, which frees some of those who were on the receiving end to retaliate. The right way to do it? Nope, but it happens.

I have no skin in this game. EM cares about ratings. PSG does not. That should have ended here. Yet we have a large number of attacks and defense of each poster.

Do you think we should all support someone who is throwing out a hypothesis, supported solely by circumstantial evidence, and claiming it is hard fact? Someone who gets pissy and throws a fit when anyone disagrees with her? I can't and won't, for her or you or anybody else. If I disagree with something said here, I WILL state my opinion. I try to do so without insult or denigration to the speaker. I manage that most times and slip a bit other times. (I ain't gunna claim t be a saint).

If I tell you that the sky is green or that gravity does not exist, you don't have to argue with me. Just move on. If you tell me I am wrong, you give power to my statement. Which is the opposite of what you intended.

As far as your last question, if one makes a dubious claim or asks a question, they need to stop and listen to those who respond WITHOUT getting a twist in their panties and spewing invectives. Helping one another DOES NOT mean blind support. It means truthfully expressing our opinion on whatever subject is at hand. That's the only way you improve and become better.

Helping each other means that if you make a dumb statement and I don't agree with it, I move on.

As far as "toxicity" in this forum, damn dude this place is a kindergarten. Wander over that way → and you'll find the PB (Politics Board). Try that out for a bit, then come back and tell me how toxic this place is, if your hair isn't on fire before you get out of there.

I am here to write, not to discuss politics. I am off social medias for a reason. Too easy for cowards and idiots to spit out craps.
I thought the AH would help me with my writing. I have learned that it will just make me even more pessimistic about the human race.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I'm beginning to think the toxicity is not intended to be a bug, but a feature.

I think you may well be right.

 

[SimonDoom]

I have no skin in this game. EM cares about ratings. PSG does not. That should have ended here. Yet we have a large number of attacks and defense of each poster.

I think that exaggerates things. There have been some attacks, but most people in this thread have meaningfully engaged with the points the OP is making, on a substantive level (184 posts in under one day). The accusation that the AH is toxic is way overblown. This place is pretty gentle compared to a lot of other forums. Just look at the Politics forum, for instance.

Emily has provided good evidence to demonstrate that certain things are happening. Fine. She understands the math better than I do. But the question still arises, so what? This whole conversation is totally pointless and fruitless. There is no injustice here. There are just different ways of approaching the subject of voting, and the site has chosen a certain way, and I personally think it's right to do it the way it wants to, and some disagree, but those who disagree are whistling into the wind. That's obvious, isn't it?

If you think this place is toxic, LEAVE. I don't think it's toxic. I think it's a phony narrative. I like it here. This is a fun forum. There's some rough and tumble, but we're adults, and we should be able to handle it. If you can't, be an adult, and go somewhere else. The site is not going to change to accommodate you, nor should it. I don't ask it to accommodate me. I tell myself, this is how it is, and I'm just going to do my thing in response. There is nothing about the voting procedure that stops me from doing my thing and achieving success on my terms, despite the fact that I, too, have encountered downvoting.

I don't understand the never-ending kvetching about the voting system. It seems pointless and performative.

 

[KittyOfSteele]

The accusation that the AH is toxic is way overblown. This place is pretty gentle compared to a lot of other forums. Just look at the Politics forum, for instance.

...

If you think this place is toxic, LEAVE. I don't think it's toxic. I think it's a phony narrative. I like it here. This is a fun forum. There's some rough and tumble, but we're adults, and we should be able to handle it. If you can't, be an adult, and go somewhere else. The site is not going to change to accommodate you, nor should it. I don't ask it to accommodate me. I tell myself, this is how it is, and I'm just going to do my thing in response. There is nothing about the voting procedure that stops me from doing my thing and achieving success on my terms, despite the fact that I, too, have encountered downvoting.

Why should I? I survived over twenty years in the music scene, where other musicians actively sabotaged others and alliances shifted more violently than Italian nobility during the Renaissance, with plenty of people now going through several mental illnesses that got as bad as suicide attempts and maybe one or two successful suicides. I disagree with your position, but here is a picnic to the place where I was. If anything, I just love being louder than the early heavy metal groups. It's a matter of learning and adapting, a feat that I'm learning through fire. It would be better if things don't devolve into a brawl (regardless on who starts it), but I already lost hope on that prospect if this... dubiously civil behavior is encouraged by the way of rules, written or not. I don't have any evidence, but my gut is telling me these brawls are a feature of the Lit community, not a bug, which makes me understand much better the position of those who refuse to participate in the forums. After all, these brawls increase traffic. Once again, people, Lit doesn't need us. Remember when I complained about people using the guidelines as moral compasses? It's never about the users.

Regarding votes however, I agree.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Look, there is no need for people to defend me. I’m very used to the usual suspects on this thread and I don’t read what they post, it has neither harm nor value for me. So I’m totally chill and fine.

It’s a simple rule - one I learned on BlueSky - don’t argue, ignore. It’s much better for the psyche. Some people are angry and get off on being angrier. I say, let them. If it helps them to self-regulate, then that’s a win as far as I’m concerned. I’d rather they took their anger out harmlessly on me than on someone in their real lives.

 

[DEFCOM5]

If you think this place is toxic, LEAVE. I don't think it's toxic. I think it's a phony narrative. I like it here. This is a fun forum. There's some rough and tumble, but we're adults, and we should be able to handle it. If you can't, be an adult, and go somewhere else. The site is not going to change to accommodate you, nor should it. I don't ask it to accommodate me. I tell myself, this is how it is, and I'm just going to do my thing in response. There is nothing about the voting procedure that stops me from doing my thing and achieving success on my terms, despite the fact that I, too, have encountered downvoting.

I don't understand the never-ending kvetching about the voting system. It seems pointless and performative.

Your wishes are granted. I am unwatching this cesspool of love!

 

[TheRedChamber]

Look, there is no need for people to defend me. I’m very used to the usual suspects on this thread and I don’t read what they post, it has neither harm nor value for me. So I’m totally chill and fine.

It’s a simple rule - one I learned on BlueSky - don’t argue, ignore. It’s much better for the psyche. Some people are angry and get off on being angrier. I say, let them. If it helps them to self-regulate, then that’s a win as far as I’m concerned. I’d rather they took their anger out harmlessly on me than on someone in their real lives.

It's weird that you are so good at ignoring people on the AH and yet so hypersensitive on your stories. Spread the zen around a little.

Purely out of interest, am I on your ignore list? (Will all the students who aren't in class today please raise their hands)

 

[designatedvictim]

Thanks to @Cacatua_Galerita for suggesting a good chart-based approach to visualizing this area here.

I don’t track voting on all my stories, and sometimes I do it at the beginning and then stop (though I keep an eye on voting even if I no longer update my spreadsheet). But here are partial voting patterns on five of my most recent stories.

View attachment 2599799

I’d draw your attention to the pairs of 1️ votes in red ellipses. This same pattern being repeated across multiple stories is not explainable by a stochastic process, it’s a clear signature of malign intent.

In all of the above cases, the pairs of one bombs continued after I gave up tracking them. And, as the real views / votes dry up over time, virtually all of the later votes are pairs of 1️s, regularly appearing each morning and - in particular - if any of my recent stories ever claws its way back over 4.5.

I can certainly agree that the pairs look suspicious, but the X-scale is linear, by vote number. How closely do the pairs show up? Are they in close temporal proximity?

As the vote count goes up, the time-between-votes generally goes up, as well.

My two highest-voted stories reached 50 votes each by the 40-hour mark.

At first blush, I'd have to say that your data sample seems too small.

Below is a quick & dirty scatter plot of my most recent story, Figure Study with my Sister.

I've been spared hideous unobombing, but I still got three in the first 25 votes. The first was a 1*.

(And yes, I plotted the loss of a 5* vote in there.)

 

[Kelliezgirl]

Emily has provided good evidence to demonstrate that certain things are happening. Fine.

Objection, facts not in evidence.
We've got a a chart, nothing more. Anyone can gin up a chart and claim it's the actual scores for their stories.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

It's weird that you are so good at ignoring people on the AH and yet so hypersensitive on your stories. Spread the zen around a little.

Purely out of interest, am I on your ignore list? (Will all the students who aren't in class today please raise their hands)

Because it isn't about the stories, it's about the attention.

 

[EmilyMiller]

How closely do the pairs show up? Are they in close temporal proximity?

Yes. They always are within a few minutes of each other. Whereas there is greater (if irregular) spacing between other votes.

 

[EmilyMiller]

At first blush, I'd have to say that your data sample seems too small.

All I can say is this pattern isn’t new. It’s been happening on a small scale for years. It’s just become industrialized recently.

As to whether the signature is clear, we’ll agree to differ.

 

[designatedvictim]

Yes. They always are within a few minutes of each other. Whereas there is greater (if irregular) spacing between other votes.

I figured you'd say that, after your earlier comment about predicting their arrival.

I haven't experienced the same pattern, but I can add time information to most, but not all, of my graph points.

The downloadable data is no more precise (only two significant digits) than the control panel, so unless you sample very frequently, it's too easy to get only approximations that border on guesses. Especially when the vote count passes the 100-mark, or so.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Especially when the vote count passes the 100-mark, or so.

Which is why I used examples with less than 50 votes. It’s almost as if I have some clue about statistics, which I use in the course of my job. Girls can do math too, if not that well, obviously.

 

[designatedvictim]

Which is why I used examples with less than 50 votes. It’s almost as if I have some clue about statistics, which I use in the course of my job. Girls can do math too, if not that well, obviously.

I was simply pointing out the dataset was awfully small to be pointing out long-term trends.

 

[Kelliezgirl]

I was simply pointing out the dataset was awfully small to be pointing out long-term trends.

Yeah, but they never miss a chance to cry victim.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I was simply pointing out the dataset was awfully small to be pointing out long-term trends.

And I’m not. I’m pointing out an obvious pattern that would be very unlikely to appear due to a stochastic process, but which does time and time again (and not just in the five - yes five - examples I provide). I’m entirely comfortable that this is a robust observation.

What do you think the probability is that these pairs of back to back one votes are entirely random. I’d say it’s infinitesimal, but please demonstrate otherwise, showing your workings.

 

[TheRedChamber]

And I’m not. I’m pointing out an obvious pattern that would be very unlikely to appear due to a stochastic process, but which does time and time again (and not just in the five - yes five - examples I provide). I’m entirely comfortable that this is a robust observation.

What do you think the probability is that these pairs of back to back one votes are entirely random. I’d say it’s infinitesimal, but please demonstrate otherwise, showing your workings.

Its a guy with an account on his home pc/home internet and another on his mobile phone. Annoying but trivial to do and if Lit started to police it, he'd just do the same thing with the votes further apart.