What makes it poetry?

[sophieloves]

it's great to enjoy the works of our time, but i still enjoy reading poets from all ages as much as i can. of course, i've only just brushed the surface. i like to taste the different flavours but what comes through for me is that even though some were heralded as the hottest thing since a freash loaf, that's not the same as the being fantastic writers. just that they were liked by lots of people. it gives me a real thrill to 'discover' writers ive not read before who can touch me, move me.

 

[Tathagata]

The key is the word "divine." I think the Transcendentalists produced the last generation of english-language poems that saw wonder in God and His creations. Part of what made Whitman the point of departure, imo, is that his poetry reflects an alienation from that god; Walt celebrates the creative power Man, not gods.

So he took it down a notch

From the creator to the created

I understand what you mean, I agree that modern poetry reflects more the
" I Me Mine" mentality more than " what beauty God hath wrought"

However, even here we have the " passion" thread and the " writing live" thread which are suppose to be places where you simply sit and write with little or no forethought.
Spontaneity as you mentioned, which if carried a step further might be responsible for the stream of conscious feel of the beats.
One could argue that ANY inspiration was a spark from god, and one could also be a complete atheist and claim the inspiration as a product of his mind alone.

Also many of the Beats who started the whole " alienation" thing were heavily influenced by eastern thought which believes in an expanding or elevated consciousness.
What they reflected and/or rejected in their work was an alienation not so much from God, but of the material world as it were .
Choosing to live simply, to question how one lives, to live for the moment
( very zen) are all a means of " coming to god" or enlightenment or satori or what ever you'd call it.

 

[sophieloves]

So he took it down a notch

From the creator to the created

i'm not sure i agree. i think he just brought god and man together more as part of a whole - everything all an intrinsic part of existence and each thing, no matter how great or small, as precious and wondrous.

 

[Tathagata]

i'm not sure i agree. i think he just brought god and man together more as part of a whole - everything all an intrinsic part of existence and each thing, no matter how great or small, as precious and wondrous.

so all is divine?
I agree

 

[Picodiribibi]

i'm not sure i agree. i think he just brought god and man together more as part of a whole - everything all an intrinsic part of existence and each thing, no matter how great or small, as precious and wondrous.

Whitman found wonder in Himself . I think the fact that he was so popular, widely read, a "people's poet," was very influential on future poetic movements, particularly the Beats, who I think tried to use the spontaneity of the Zen koan to "rescue" poetry from its godlessness.

 

[sophieloves]

Whitman found wonder in Himself . I think the fact that he was so popular, widely read, a "people's poet," was very influential on future poetic movements, particularly the Beats, who I think tried to use the spontaneity of the Zen koan to "rescue" poetry from its godlessness.

yes, a magnificent and stirring poem. i could lose myself in it.

 

[Angeline]

Whitman found wonder in Himself . I think the fact that he was so popular, widely read, a "people's poet," was very influential on future poetic movements, particularly the Beats, who I think tried to use the spontaneity of the Zen koan to "rescue" poetry from its godlessness.

Yes, Whitman and jazz were the two major influences on the beats. Jack Kerouac wrote about Lester Young (my favorite) as did Ginsberg. You can hear the jazz sensibility in the rhythms of much beat poetry as well as in its improvisational quality.

Some of the earliest beat poets read to jazz. I've seen videos of some of them--not so great, imo. I did see one of Kenneth Koch (one of Tzara's favorite poets, if memory serves) reading to jazz (filmed in the early 1960s, I think) that I really liked. No luck finding it on youtube though.

 

[twelveoone]

So he took it down a notch

From the creator to the created

I understand what you mean, I agree that modern poetry reflects more the
" I Me Mine" mentality more than " what beauty God hath wrought"

However, even here we have the " passion" thread and the " writing live" thread which are suppose to be places where you simply sit and write with little or no forethought.
Spontaneity as you mentioned, which if carried a step further might be responsible for the stream of conscious feel of the beats.
One could argue that ANY inspiration was a spark from god, and one could also be a complete atheist and claim the inspiration as a product of his mind alone.

Also many of the Beats who started the whole " alienation" thing were heavily influenced by eastern thought which believes in an expanding or elevated consciousness.
What they reflected and/or rejected in their work was an alienation not so much from God, but of the material world as it were .
Choosing to live simply, to question how one lives, to live for the moment
( very zen) are all a means of " coming to god" or enlightenment or satori or what ever you'd call it.

Hey Tath,
If you see the Bukowski on the road


Kill Him.


Other than that, good points, interesting discussion. Regarding the Beats, alienation thing, eastern thought, etc., take it back further, how does Eliot end The Waste Land?

 

[Tathagata]

Hey Tath,
If you see the Bukowski on the road


Kill Him.


Other than that, good points, interesting discussion. Regarding the Beats, alienation thing, eastern thought, etc., take it back further, how does Eliot end The Waste Land?

Good Morning 1201

I think I'd buy him a drink or two first
I'm not one of those who is in a mad rush for enlightenment....not anymore anyway
I think I'll linger among illusion for a while, blame the grand daughter

It had been so long since I read the Wasteland I had to go look
" Shanti shanti shanti"
Peace peace peace
a phrase from the Upanishads
Excellent point

I suppose you could include some Yeats also.
but I'm far to lazy to look up concrete examples.

 

[twelveoone]

Good Morning 1201

I think I'd buy him a drink or two first
I'm not one of those who is in a mad rush for enlightenment....not anymore anyway
I think I'll linger among illusion for a while, blame the grand daughter

It had been so long since I read the Wasteland I had to go look
" Shanti shanti shanti"
Peace peace peace
a phrase from the Upanishads
Excellent point

I suppose you could include some Yeats also.
but I'm far to lazy to look up concrete examples.

lazy is good, grand daughter best excuse, congrats, when did it happen?
as far as drinkin with the Buk, don't know if I could have done it, probably wind up in a fist fight, and we would wind up writting bad and funny stuff about each other. I don't know who would have the upper hand, him with Black Sparrow, now Ecco(sp?) or me, 'cause I'm still here pissing among the living.

Good to see you, ye who have written so many things, I wished I had.

 

[Tathagata]

lazy is good, grand daughter best excuse, congrats, when did it happen?
as far as drinkin with the Buk, don't know if I could have done it, probably wind up in a fist fight, and we would wind up writting bad and funny stuff about each other. I don't know who would have the upper hand, him with Black Sparrow, now Ecco(sp?) or me, 'cause I'm still here pissing among the living.

Good to see you, ye who have written so many things, I wished I had.

She'll be a year in Sept.
Thank you, there is nothing that helps one slip into the chaise lounge of old age like an adoring grandchild.

Black Sparrow now has an office in Boston, I was going to send them some stuff but their web page basically says don't bother unless you have an agent or we request it.
I ain't holdin my breath for either.

Nice to see you as well.

 

[twelveoone]

She'll be a year in Sept.
Thank you, there is nothing that helps one slip into the chaise lounge of old age like an adoring grandchild.

Now that's poetry.

Black Sparrow now has an office in Boston, I was going to send them some stuff but their web page basically says don't bother unless you have an agent or we request it.
I ain't holdin my breath for either.

Nice to see you as well.

Good luck with it - I don't know what the relationship with Ecco(sp?) is. I think Patti Smith is with them too. A bit of a surprising poet.