When a trust is broken...

[Light Ice]

I suppose I mean to be blunt, but I don't mean to offend or truly be rude. But if that is true, then I am of the opinion that you are a fool, or someone who has had too easy a life.

Trust can be betrayed. Horrifically. Shatteringly. I spent nine years recovering. I should know.

Forgive my brevity.

I believe that we are all accountable and responsible for the things that happen to us in life. In the end, I believe, all consequences for the better or worse can be traced to decisions we have made. Horrendous mistakes are made, frequently, when we make our decisions based on what we hope a person to be rather than what they are. I think this is the most common instance of tragedy that a "betrayal" of trust falls into.

Are their particular incidents more horrific than others? Certainly. Am I sensitive to that? A great deal.

But my personal belief is that we are all better off evaluating hardships through a constructively critical lens. The opportunity to grow and improve as a person should be seized when it prevents itself and I believe that a man should operate under the conviction that he is in control of his own heart regardless the circumstance.

It certainly wasn't something I immediately was able to grasp. My mistakes and falters, like anyone, are more numerous then my successes. But my intent and focus, in that regard, has helped me be more successful in choosing what I trust people with and whom I trust. It's also allowed me to maintain a more balanced measure through the hardships that I, like everyone else, have gone through and to navigate them with dignity and authority.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Forgive my brevity.

I believe that we are all accountable and responsible for the things that happen to us in life. In the end, I believe, all consequences for the better or worse can be traced to decisions we have made.

As an adult you have the right and hopefully the intelligence to say this. But I disagree. COMPLETELY. The person who shattered my trust, my ability to trust, did so when I was a child, it was never my decision to watch her leave me, to watch her get beat up by boyfriends, to let her leave me where I would be violated. THOSE were not my choices, they were hers. In making her choices she completely decimated my trust. This thing trust is not black and white color you make it out to be.

Horrendous mistakes are made, frequently, when we make our decisions based on what we hope a person to be rather than what they are. I think this is the most common instance of tragedy that a "betrayal" of trust falls into.

Agreed to a point. The caveat here is that everyone has the ability to surprise us, and we as a society hold others to a higher degree of trust than others. It isn't a personal choice in some instances, it is what is expected or should be. Respect goes a long way.


Are their particular incidents more horrific than others? Certainly. Am I sensitive to that? A great deal.

But my personal belief is that we are all better off evaluating hardships through a constructively critical lens. The opportunity to grow and improve as a person should be seized when it prevents itself and I believe that a man should operate under the conviction that he is in control of his own heart regardless the circumstance.

Nicely put. But you are also talking about people here, and rationality can take a very long time to achieve in moments of fear, weakness, or anger.

It certainly wasn't something I immediately was able to grasp. My mistakes and falters, like anyone, are more numerous then my successes. But my intent and focus, in that regard, has helped me be more successful in choosing what I trust people with and whom I trust. It's also allowed me to maintain a more balanced measure through the hardships that I, like everyone else, have gone through and to navigate them with dignity and authority.

Good for you. There are those of us who everyday trust is a battle. An internal one, that guides our decisions. Would I wish for me it were otherwise, yes. But I don't wish for pity at the hand I was dealt and neither do I hate my mother. She was an idiot, and I have paid for her mistakes. But they are hers. To take the emotionality of the basic tenets of trust is to miss the complete picture.

 

[chronicle_tenko]

Forgive my brevity.

I believe that we are all accountable and responsible for the things that happen to us in life. In the end, I believe, all consequences for the better or worse can be traced to decisions we have made. Horrendous mistakes are made, frequently, when we make our decisions based on what we hope a person to be rather than what they are. I think this is the most common instance of tragedy that a "betrayal" of trust falls into.

Are their particular incidents more horrific than others? Certainly. Am I sensitive to that? A great deal.

But my personal belief is that we are all better off evaluating hardships through a constructively critical lens. The opportunity to grow and improve as a person should be seized when it prevents itself and I believe that a man should operate under the conviction that he is in control of his own heart regardless the circumstance.

It certainly wasn't something I immediately was able to grasp. My mistakes and falters, like anyone, are more numerous then my successes. But my intent and focus, in that regard, has helped me be more successful in choosing what I trust people with and whom I trust. It's also allowed me to maintain a more balanced measure through the hardships that I, like everyone else, have gone through and to navigate them with dignity and authority.

Ok I see the second part. We should be responsible for ourselves, and own up to our mistakes. And yes we should learn from our mistakes and try to come out stronger people. I have had a lot of hardship. I have dealt with it the best I can, and moved forward the best I can.

But the first part... The first part reads. It is your fault you were a victim. Which is Bullshit. In every way. Ever. Sorry. It is. And that's what it says. Pretty clearly. And None of that; at all answers or relates to: trust can't be truly broken.

My step-father beat me one day because he was angry, Just held me up to a wall and punched me till my ribs broke. It was what? My fault my mom married this guy? Or my fault for coming home after school, or my decision to be at home when I was 7?

Sorry no, I have no blame or culpability at all in that situation. My decision in NO WAY results in the betrayal of trust, between the man I thought to be my father, and my 7 year old self. I came out of it better. And stronger. I learned from the mistake, HE made. And we have a better relationship now, after therapy.

But I was a victim plain and simple. I made no fault, no mistake, and have no culpability.

And You ARE a real bastard.

 

[Light Ice]

You aren't alone in your beliefs, Aus. If that's any consolation.

I certainly don't mean any offense when I speak my own.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

I think what Chronie and I are trying to say is that being blamed for choices that we didn't make.. affect us.. even as adults.

I know you didn't mean offense, but these things aren't obvious always.

 

[Light Ice]

My step-father beat me one day because he was angry, Just held me up to a wall and punched me till my ribs broke. It was what? My fault my mom married this guy? Or my fault for coming home after school, or my decision to be at home when I was 7?

Sorry no, I have no blame or culpability at all in that situation. My decision in NO WAY results in the betrayal of trust, between the man I thought to be my father, and my 7 year old self. I came out of it better. And stronger. I learned from the mistake, HE made. And we have a better relationship now, after therapy.

But I was a victim plain and simple. I made no fault, no mistake, and have no culpability.

I've no desire to discuss your personal details, Tenko, and that's not what I came here to do. Suffice to say our philosophies differ in regards to victimization and accountability. I hope it's inherent that I don't judge others on how they feel or approach their lives.

My only intent was to express my own, particular, position. I apologize that in the course of differing you took offense.

 

[Light Ice]

I think what Chronie and I are trying to say is that being blamed for choices that we didn't make.. affect us.. even as adults.

I know you didn't mean offense, but these things aren't obvious always.

We can certainly agree to disagree.

 

[monique_minx]

But I was a victim plain and simple. I made no fault, no mistake, and have no culpability.

Ugh I hate that word. I've been called a 'victim' for years. There is one point I will agree with Light Ice on and the realization inspired a quote that I wrote a while ago.

"We are victims of our own volition and I won't be a victim of yours any longer."

I may appear to be the victim (that doesn't even sound like a word anymore) but it's my choice to call myself that and my choice to be one. I won't and I'm not.

Stronger for the experience? I don't know about that but I'll NEVER be the victim, not of anyone's. Not of the countless men in my life to betray my trust and break my body, not of my mother's and not of any stranger's either.

Sometimes I think maybe that makes me stronger but I don't think so, I'm not strong for not giving up on life. I think I just lack the will power or the bravery to step in front of a semi.

"You lack the courage of your conviction." - Powerful enough quote from a movie to remain with me. I lack that when it comes to death.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

We can certainly agree to disagree.

Indeed we can. And we do. Completely.

Ugh I hate that word. I've been called a 'victim' for years. There is one point I will agree with Light Ice on and the realization inspired a quote that I wrote a while ago.

"We are victims of our own volition and I won't be a victim of yours any longer."

I may appear to be the victim (that doesn't even sound like a word anymore) but it's my choice to call myself that and my choice to be one. I won't and I'm not.

Stronger for the experience? I don't know about that but I'll NEVER be the victim, not of anyone's. Not of the countless men in my life to betray my trust and break my body, not of my mother's and not of any stranger's either.

Sometimes I think maybe that makes me stronger but I don't think so, I'm not strong for not giving up on life. I think I just lack the will power or the bravery to step in front of a semi.

"You lack the courage of your conviction." - Powerful enough quote from a movie to remain with me. I lack that when it comes to death.

Agreed Minxyness... I am partial to survivor myself. Fuck that pity me, fall down, woe is me, Scarlett O'hara bullshit victimhood... I survived it, it's over, I'm stronger, suck my ovaries (balls aren't half as strong).

 

[monique_minx]

Indeed we can. And we do. Completely.



Agreed Minxyness... I am partial to survivor myself. Fuck that pity me, fall down, woe is me, Scarlett O'hara bullshit victimhood... I survived it, it's over, I'm stronger, suck my ovaries (balls aren't half as strong).

*Bows down to the woman who says everything I just did in one sentence!*

Lol why can't I wrap it up like that?!

 

[Firmhanded_Daddy]

CT, I understand where you are coming from, beatings were pretty regular around my house too, from both parents.

Light_Ice I understand your point, and your ideals are sound; within a vacuum. The problem is reality and circumstance tend to skew those results. The quote comes to mind "The best laid plans rarely survive contact with the enemy"

Simply put any philosophy can be true for one person, but apply that same template to the person next to you and the result can differ. Some people are good at playing victim, some people love it, and some people loathe themselves for ending up on the receiving end of circumstances they could not prevent. Not every choice is inverse to the result. "Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" Again this is true but has it's limits. When dealing with sentient creatures we defy "laws" and "Truth" every day. The fact that I am still living and breathing at this time today defies medical science.

Human perception is limited, isolated, and usually self reflective. Applying your ideals to another person can often lead to disastrous result. Now within certain circumstances I would agree with you. For instance if my parents were to try and strike me now, and I allowed it it would be a result of my own inaction. Luckily for me most of my family is skinny and I present something of a physically intimidating form so they would be afraid I would hit them back. The very idea startles me to no end. The circumstances under which I would do so would have to be extremely severe, and either endangering my life, or physically threatening someone I care for. I tend to be more protective of others than I am myself.

However 20 years ago I can tell you that I had no control over when my father decided to get drunk, or my mom decided to have a mood swing. Not a whole lot I could do about someone bigger and stronger than me whooping my ass with a belt or burning me with a cigarette. However, I did take something from that situation. I learned how I do NOT want to raise my children. So I would not call myself a victim. It is only through struggle that we learn the real lessons life has to teach us.

 

[Firmhanded_Daddy]

Hmmm I realize I only indirectly addressed the main issue. Well ok here goes...

Trust for me, like most people is a difficult thing. I've had many instances where I have given it freely, and had it stomped on. At my core I'm a fairly warm person, and I try to maintain that to the best of my ability outside as well.

The truth is though I have a hard time exposing parts of myself that are intimate and leave me with a feeling of vulnerability. I tend to let people in by incremental steps. Peeling back a layer at a time, as I feel more comfortable and more secure with that person.

Some people have been better than others at getting past my attempts to keep them at a comfortable distance, but even those closet too me sometimes have to struggle against me, as I am prone to remain silent about something rather than share my feelings on an issue until I feel that I am in control.

I am very self reflective, and cautious about my interactions with people. I try very hard to leave other people laughing or smiling rather than anything else. So I tell lots of really bad jokes! mwahaha.

When trust is broken I don't think there is a hard fast rule that anyone can follow to get over it. It is all situational; relative to the person you trusted, how intimate the trust was, and how severe the breach of trust was. Usually I am pretty forgiving of people. It takes a pretty big breach of trust for me to actually cut someone out of my life entirely. I can count the people I have done that to on one hand and still have fingers to spare as far as trust issues go.

 

[Light Ice]

CT, I understand where you are coming from, beatings were pretty regular around my house too, from both parents.

Light_Ice I understand your point, and your ideals are sound; within a vacuum. The problem is reality and circumstance tend to skew those results. The quote comes to mind "The best laid plans rarely survive contact with the enemy"

Simply put any philosophy can be true for one person, but apply that same template to the person next to you and the result can differ.

I disagree with your premise here.

Under that train of thought it is the "reality" and circumstances that dictate the consequences of our actions. The process as you explain it extends to something like this.

Circumstances > Reactions > Plans

I insist that is an entirely false model of behavior. Without getting entirely boring, or clinically confrontational, I would suggest that we have a very different view of people and the fundamentals of accountability. It bares repeating that you're certainly entitled to your opinion.

And I definitely appreciate the discussion and arguments. It's certainly been a surprise to see so many willingly detail hardships in their own life in an effort to explain their philosophies in regards to the original topic. I hadn't anticipated that.

But, as for me, I will always believe that life is an inherently trying experience and the only constant we can assert for ourselves are the set of principles by which we live. And while there will always be exceptions (to which some of you may apply, I do not know. We are all strangers here.) the rule remains that any trials that come our way frequently are our own making.

In my world:

Principles > Reactions > Circumstance

We'll call it a gentleman's disagreement.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

I have a problem with all of this Light Ice... you write as if you've never been touched with betrayal, or human nature at all. This simply cannot be the case.

 

[Light Ice]

I have a problem with all of this Light Ice... you write as if you've never been touched with betrayal, or human nature at all. This simply cannot be the case.

Is that the impression that all of this gave you?

No. That's not the case.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Is that the impression that all of this gave you?

No. That's not the case.

But it's so cold. Perhaps you are not sharing, and that I respect. I, myself had no intention of sharing beyond my first post. But something in your analysis triggered something.

Your idea.. feels like victim blaming. And that is a powerfully negative thing.

 

[Light Ice]

But it's so cold. Perhaps you are not sharing, and that I respect. I, myself had no intention of sharing beyond my first post. But something in your analysis triggered something.

Your idea.. feels like victim blaming. And that is a powerfully negative thing.

I would (albeit gently) suggest that you are making the mistake of reading cruelty and callousness where there is none. It's an easy mistake to make given the complete lack of analogy in my explanation and my unwillingness to address particular stories posted in reply.

There's a concession, though, as well. After Tenko's reply, which was emotionally charged and related a deeply personal matter as reference, I made the decision -not- to address individual anecdotes or my own experiences in the course of discussion. It seemed an intelligent way to express my position without coming across as critical of your (meaning the rest of you) own.

But, I assure you, underneath all the crisp rhetoric is a living breathing person and -not- an erotica-scripting robot.

 

[Light Ice]

And a quick addition:

I would really like to stress, once again, how poor a word I find "blame" to be in this kind of discussion. There is a huge difference between, "You are responsible for the hardships in your life" and "You are to blame for the hardships in your life."

And I don't think I can stress that enough.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

And not sharing is fine.

But it is the breadth of those ideas that seem offhand.

Tell you what. A hypothetical is needed. Show me.. please, how you view trust and how it can be broken.

I want to make sure I have your idea correct.

Edit- interesting statement. I'll touch on that in a minute.

 

[Light Ice]

Well, it certainly was offhand. I'm not emotionally invested in the discussion. I'm not familiar with you, or the others, on any personal level. That kind of makes me the voice in the sky. I can speak as sincerely as I want (if I wanted to) and it would do little good because I'm not on the ground with you.

And it's fairly clear to me that you do not understand what I am saying because you're asking me to explain how trust can be violated. I've asserted several times that I don't believe it truly can be.

At this point, though, I'm officially beating a dead horse and that's no fun. Plus, it's noon here. And I've to get lunch. I'll be back later tonight.

 

[Firmhanded_Daddy]

Actually the resulting arguments have pretty clearly illustrated my point. No matter how good an argument is, or how solid your logic is, the human factor can create an enigma.

Several people who have had very traumatic experiences have reacted powerfully to your statements and read into them a message that you are more or less (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here Chronie and Ausus) a rather cold and unfeeling individual. I myself can see their point of view.

I also however see that you are taking the stance of logic and intellect over emotion, which is part of the reason the others are clashing with you. They are responding from a stance of emotion, where as you are responding from the total other side of the brain.

I myself tend to bounce this back and fourth between the two sides and come to a middle ground. I can deal in absolutes of logic, and I can also deal in the realm of passions that spring from emotion.

My model actually does not have absolutes in it like yours did. My decision making process is rather fluid. I break down each situation and evaluate it and pick out which parts fit into my scheme of right and wrong. Sometimes it's circumstance that wins out, sometimes it's reason, sometimes it's my own moral compass.

Not that I think your view point is wrong, or anyone else's is. My main ideal here was that other people may not see it the same way, and while your principles work for you, the way you came across in your initial reply seemed very much like you were applying your model to others and finding that everyone who has felt betrayed to just have let themself be duped. At least that was what I read into it.

 

[monique_minx]

Interesting...

Light Ice, I have a question for you then. You assert that trust cannot be broken then, it is something you give to another and no matter what they cannot betray it?

Then you would continue to trust a partner that cheated on you?

Or someone dear to you who threatened your life or that of your children?

Or perhaps your best friend after he raped your sister?

Just to give you a few male hypotheticals. Could you continue to trust these people and state that there was no betrayal?

Would you continue to be as close with them? Would you feel hurt?

If you intimate that something exists but then say it is immortal then I consider that to be unfounded, love can be killed, plants can wither and die therefore trust can certainly be betrayed.

It's human.

 

[Light Ice]

Stuff.

Again, I've only stated my personal position and answered appropriate calls to explain it.

I've no intention of addressing everyone's particular situation as though I've a solution.

I've also no intention of giving advice of any kind.

Interesting...

Light Ice, I have a question for you then. You assert that trust cannot be broken then, it is something you give to another and no matter what they cannot betray it?

No. Again. As clearly as I can manage. I am postulating that in giving it to another I'm inviting harm upon myself. And in -that- decision -I- am responsible for whatever happens, good or bad, after.

Then you would continue to trust a partner that cheated on you?

Me? No. But the trouble with your inquiry is its depth. There is a -lot- more going on in any situation of infidelity then "trust". I challenge you to draw up a hypothetical example of infidelity in which trust is the -only- issue.

Or someone dear to you who threatened your life or that of your children?

If my judgment of character is so badly flawed that someone "close" to me was that inherently unstable then I would most likely be unable to recognize that the fault in the situation lie with my inability to filter those kinds of people from my life.

Or perhaps your best friend after he raped your sister?

That's a curious one. This one is particularly invalid as an anecdotal inquiry because the primary concerns regarding that individual tragedy extend far beyond "trust". I'm not exactly keen on breaking down the dynamics of rape and sexual assault for the point of idle conversation but suffice to say there's a betrayal of societal decency there that eclipses any point you could attempt to make.

Would you continue to be as close with them? Would you feel hurt?

I would certainly have an emotional reaction if my best friend slept with my partner, threatened to murder my children, raped my sister, and shot the president.

If you intimate that something exists but then say it is immortal then I consider that to be unfounded, love can be killed, plants can wither and die therefore trust can certainly be betrayed.

It's human.

I find it interesting that you equate trust (which is an intangible element of a relationship) to things like plants and love. I'm not entirely sure what you're attempting to say.

Without being crass, and rushed for my lunch, it reads something like:

"If a dog can jump a fence and a car can drive down the road then I can run across the field."

And I'm not certain what I should address there. If anything.

 

[Arcane_Desires]

Interesting...

Light Ice, I have a question for you then. You assert that trust cannot be broken then, it is something you give to another and no matter what they cannot betray it?

Then you would continue to trust a partner that cheated on you?

Or someone dear to you who threatened your life or that of your children?

Or perhaps your best friend after he raped your sister?

Just to give you a few male hypotheticals. Could you continue to trust these people and state that there was no betrayal?

Would you continue to be as close with them? Would you feel hurt?

If you intimate that something exists but then say it is immortal then I consider that to be unfounded, love can be killed, plants can wither and die therefore trust can certainly be betrayed.

It's human.

Querido, you mixed emotion with logic. I am surprised you would comment at all on such a topic.

Trust amounts to honour and responsibility in my opinion. My submissive is my responsibility when she puts herself in my care and I honour her by not damaging her mind, body or spirit.

I honour her by giving myself to her and her alone unless she agrees on some arrangement. She relies on me, she is confident in me and is always honest with me. These are the things that amount to trust.

Trust can be lost. Broken and betrayed are perhaps not the logical terms of use. But it can go astray and while in some cases it can fall to fault on both sides, in others I have found it doesn't. Situational, as it has been mentioned above.

With the use of Monique's example of a best friend raping a man's sister, I would assume this girl would trust this man as her brother's best friend. Place confidence in him and perhaps rely on him from time to time, she would certainly maintain a sense of respect if he seemed honourable. This is from my standpoint as to how I would view such a hypothetical however.

Monique, I am aware that you are likely using hypotheticals you've experienced, some of these I could chance a guess at so I hope I do not seem unsympathetic querido. If this man 'betrayed' this girl by raping her, then the sense of confidence in him is lost, she would not desire to spend time alone with him; lost to her own fears of him repeating such an indiscretion. I use such a term loosely, it cannot convey the criminal action justly.

I hope this answers the question as well as shed some new views on the topic.

 

[chronicle_tenko]

I've no desire to discuss your personal details, Tenko, and that's not what I came here to do. Suffice to say our philosophies differ in regards to victimization and accountability. I hope it's inherent that I don't judge others on how they feel or approach their lives.

My only intent was to express my own, particular, position. I apologize that in the course of differing you took offense.

That's fine. I don't want to discuss my personal things with you either. But I was citing, my source. The reason for the belief, and why and how it applied to your statement.

I understand that our philosophies differ in regards to victimization and accountability. I'll come back to this.

It is not inherent. What you say sounds like a judgment on everyone else for their lives. What you say does not come off as Cruel to me. Or callous. It comes off as unfounded, and undefended. What you say has no backing. Not from a story, but not even from you. Often what you say is. "I disagree with you." You merely say our points are invalid, and you don't explain beyond that.

So to me it seems obvious that you don't care to discuss, with us. And I am fine with that. I accept your apology 'that I took offense'. It doesn't mean anything, and It isn't an apology for your words or actions, and it is condescending in every way. But, that's neither here nor there.

Honestly as I put before, your intent is fine. What you have said I disagree with. Since you don't intend to discuss I don't intend to either.

I will agree to disagree. Like gentlemen.

However. I said I would come back to this.

I understand that our philosophies differ in regards to victimization and accountability.

We (the people speaking to you.) Take exception to yours. Because you refuse to explain it. I have taken responsibility for what occurred. I know what my responsibilities are and what they were. I fail to see in any way where I was accountable? Where I could be held accountable? And you seem to insist I could be.

I agree that in MANY situations. Something could have been avoided. But in the case of betrayal.

You have chosen to trust someone. And then their action, breaks that trust. By the very definition of this word. It is not something that the betrayed is accountable for.

They may share responsibility. Such as in the case of a cheating spouse.
They may bear responsibilities. Such as a husband leaving his wife.
They may even abdicate responsibilities. Where a woman lets her boyfriend keep beating her.

And there are more. But in none of those situations. Is the person who was betrayed at fault, for the others action. And in many others. They are not responsible for the others actions, they are hardly responsible for their own.

We say Victim blaming because that is the right term. In no way was I accountable, responsible, or to blame for what happened when I was betrayed, in that example from my life.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unless you believe that fundamentally. Any person who gives trust to any other person, is automatically responsible for any and all actions the other person makes. Which is certainly logical, and also again Foolish in the extreme.

That kind of attitude is akin to saying the inventor of bullets, is guilty of every handgun murder in the world.

I am rambling. It is late. I disagree with you. Done.