When a trust is broken...

[monique_minx]

why can't I put stuff like that?!

Yeah, kinda see the point, it's a subject really close to me and I tend to work from personal examples rather than argue meaning or analyse stuff.

But Light Ice, I kinda think you are a person who has either never had their trust blown to pieces like I have or you are a very distant kind. I do that to protect myself but if you do that then why do you do it?

And heh, go to lunch, you can always quote and reply later - love that function!

Arcane, you didn't hurt my feelings, thank you. I think you really put it beautifully with the use of different words to describe what trust actually means to you. I wish I could explain it like that but I prefer to use my own life because it makes my emotional reaction much more...explanatory I guess.

Ugh head exploding, I think I'll take some more pain killers and get back to you guys

 

[Firmhanded_Daddy]

Actually CT, I just read your post and saw in it a reason why you were to blame for all your troubles... Ready?


-Leans in and whispers in conspiratorial tones-

.....your in Canada!

-Snickers- Just kidding man. Things were getting a little too serious in here ya know?

 

[Light Ice]

Querido, you mixed emotion with logic. I am surprised you would comment at all on such a topic.

Trust amounts to honour and responsibility in my opinion. My submissive is my responsibility when she puts herself in my care and I honour her by not damaging her mind, body or spirit.

I honour her by giving myself to her and her alone unless she agrees on some arrangement. She relies on me, she is confident in me and is always honest with me. These are the things that amount to trust.

Trust can be lost. Broken and betrayed are perhaps not the logical terms of use. But it can go astray and while in some cases it can fall to fault on both sides, in others I have found it doesn't. Situational, as it has been mentioned above.

I think referencing "honor" in regards to trust is an adept and healthy thing to do. In the end you have two distinct parties.

"Trust-er"
and
"Trustee"

The individual giving trust, let's say a submissive, had done so with conscious intent to what ends that will bring. There was a decision involved. Everything starts there.

The individual receiving trust, you, has also done so with an intent. It's inherent in the agreement, really, that with that trust comes an expectation of certain needs being met. I think it's -extremely- healthy as the trustee to evaluate the transaction honestly and take responsibility for your part. That's especially important in submissive/dominate relationships as far as I can tell because what the submissive is essentially trusting you to do as a dominate is to take responsibility for her. You make the decisions. You deal with the consequences. It's been a dynamic in the BDSM community that I find -extremely- fascinating because when two people give it the respect and honest evaluation it deserves they tend to have a very beautiful experience. Any lack of communication or dishonesty between the pair tends to end especially messy, likewise, given the dynamic.

So, my point? I really appreciate that reference. It speaks of the inherent accountability in the trustee's part.

To the one doing the trusting, though, it's important that I reiterate that everything began with a choice to share. A choice to give trust. And that choice is often one we make with every belief that we've done so with great care and consideration. Most human beings, I feel, are inherently stingy with who they come to rely upon in life because we're trained from a pretty young age to be let down by the rest of humanity. This isn't an indictment on people so much as an observation.

A few billion souls on this earth are all scuffling for their own slice of happiness. It's inevitable that a few billion toes get stepped on by their neighbors.

Which brings me too...

That's fine. I don't want to discuss my personal things with you either. But I was citing, my source. The reason for the belief, and why and how it applied to your statement.

I understand that our philosophies differ in regards to victimization and accountability. I'll come back to this.

It is not inherent. What you say sounds like a judgment on everyone else for their lives. What you say does not come off as Cruel to me. Or callous. It comes off as unfounded, and undefended. What you say has no backing. Not from a story, but not even from you. Often what you say is. "I disagree with you." You merely say our points are invalid, and you don't explain beyond that.

So to me it seems obvious that you don't care to discuss, with us. And I am fine with that. I accept your apology 'that I took offense'. It doesn't mean anything, and It isn't an apology for your words or actions, and it is condescending in every way. But, that's neither here nor there.

If it wasn't inherent then I need to be very clear. I do not harbor judgments on anyone here. It's extremely clear to me that I do not know most of you as people. It's extremely clear to me that I cannot imagine or intelligently comment on what your personal hardships meant to you or how they manifested themselves in your life.

The only things I can say are the sweeping generalizations a topic like this invites. The cliche, "Everyone has hardships" or "it's important to be directly accountable for your own choices in order to grow and move on as a person". Both are true in the way they are offered but both may not particularly apply to you, or anyone else here. It's impossible for me to tell.

And while I won't be so insensitive as to discuss your situation with you on a message board in order to give you a better understanding of my position or it it's boundaries, I have to then accept that you might not understand what I am saying. It's no fault of yours. The limitations I've put on myself have handicapped me in the discussion to a certain degree.

But I would -much- rather that the point suffer then the people I'm discussing it with.

So, before I continue at all, I think I can't say it loud enough. Whatever any of you have decided to do when faced with hardships, I am not indicting you in your conduct. I think our difference of opinion and philosophy is making some of you feel the need to defend yourself, Tenko. And it's unnecessary. I can only, once again, apologize for anything that made you have that kind of reaction.

But as for the limits of my apology. It's fair to say that it's meant as an extension of personal sympathy and essentially a humanists apology. It isn't meant to suggest that I've somehow changed my outlook or beliefs. It's not meant to be condescending. Only honest.

We (the people speaking to you.) Take exception to yours. Because you refuse to explain it. I have taken responsibility for what occurred. I know what my responsibilities are and what they were. I fail to see in any way where I was accountable? Where I could be held accountable? And you seem to insist I could be.

I agree that in MANY situations. Something could have been avoided. But in the case of betrayal.

To clarify; being accountable does not always mean you can avoid consequences. Infact, as a general sense, it means exactly the opposite. I want so badly to engage you in a discussion here. I've typed and deleted a couple paragraphs. But in the end I think that it would be far more responsible to just leave it at that. You have every right to feel the way you feel and I am certain that the hardships in your life have been handled in a way that you were comfortable with.

You have chosen to trust someone. And then their action, breaks that trust. By the very definition of this word. It is not something that the betrayed is accountable for.

This is really the heart of our difference. You are saying that the betrayal is beyond your control once you've extended your trust. I'm saying that by extending your trust you maintain control, even when hurt via that trust, over the situation and are entirely accountable.

They may share responsibility. Such as in the case of a cheating spouse.
They may bear responsibilities. Such as a husband leaving his wife.
They may even abdicate responsibilities. Where a woman lets her boyfriend keep beating her.

And there are more. But in none of those situations. Is the person who was betrayed at fault, for the others action. And in many others. They are not responsible for the others actions, they are hardly responsible for their own.

To clarify my own contrasting position; I feel that people are always responsible for their own actions. We couldn't differ more strongly here. It's entirely possible that I am amongst a very small portion of people who choose to believe this and I won't attempt to claim that it's "better". But if there were certain banner tenants by which I lived my life the very first would be:

I am responsible, always, for my own actions.

why can't I put stuff like that?!

Yeah, kinda see the point, it's a subject really close to me and I tend to work from personal examples rather than argue meaning or analyse stuff.

But Light Ice, I kinda think you are a person who has either never had their trust blown to pieces like I have or you are a very distant kind. I do that to protect myself but if you do that then why do you do it?

To better myself. That's the only goal. I don't generally believe in protecting yourself from the human experience. Hurts and hardships are a part of life. It's my personal belief that my goal should be on sharpening my responses to adversarial conditions rather than avoiding them.

A consequence of this seems to be, interestingly enough, that I run into fewer and fewer hardships of a similar nature.

I choose to hold myself accountable for these hardships because it enables me to view them without an emotional lens coloring my observation. There is a certain clarity achieved when "blame" is factored out of the equation and the problem is isolated for what it is. It is my goal to assess and react through educated thought and patience in my life rather than impulse.

Is it more difficult when you're approaching relationships and people you've invested a certain part of yourself into, or maybe wholly into? Absolutely. I'm not attempting to trivialize the challenge. I'm only attempting to say that the goal remains the same and the efforts I take in order to achieve that goal are made with the idea of improving myself and my situation through the experience.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

First, FD... agreed (shocker).

Second.. Light Ice I agree with you in one way only. You're absolutely right, in the case of Adult making decisions. You choose to extend trust, AS AN ADULT, with the knowledge that it could in the end, bite you in the ass.

But many for many of us, that choice of trust was taken before we even had a chance to understand it, to even consciously make that choice.

That's what inherently sucks about your position, and why it sounds like victim blaming.

When you add in the caveat, that these decisions are being made by a healthy, smart, intelligent adult, with the privilege and knowledge to make said decision, you're absolutely correct.

It is a hard pill to swallow, but in the end we are responsible for our own choices be they good or bad.

However, because each individual views the world through their own lens, with their own experience behind it, there can never be a true consensus on trust.

Suffice it to say, that while you can make a healthy decision about trust, and own up to your own experiences. That is something, I, myself struggle with every single day, having not had the experience that allows me, a safe space in which to do so.

Do you see the fundamental difference?

 

[Light Ice]

I think the differences between my outlook and many others in this thread are pretty distinct, certainly.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

I am beginning to think that you seek to keep it that way.

 

[Light Ice]

At this point in my life, Ausus, I've lived too long under my own method to attempt to convert to another. If it isn't broke don't fix it.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

Rigidly devoid of human emotion, got it. Also seeks to make sure that his point while made well, is the most important point. Also check.

Too bad I wasn't trying to change your mind. I was merely bridging the gap between what is being said here, and what you've said.

 

[APassionateFlame]

Unnecessary...and late.

Rigidly devoid of human emotion, got it. Also seeks to make sure that his point while made well, is the most important point. Also check.

Too bad I wasn't trying to change your mind. I was merely bridging the gap between what is being said here, and what you've said.

I've come a bit late to this conversation - but nonetheless, I'll add my input in as well.

I find it extremely unsettling that throughout this thread - there are several people that are trying to convince LI that their opinions are the correct ones. I mean, I understand. It's human nature to want folks to agree with you, especially on an issue as sensitive as trust.

But the fact of the matter is - you all posted your own opinions on the matter, and LI posted his opinion on the matter as well. He expressed his opinion, he agreed to disagree with you. And some of you even stated that you agreed to disagree with him.

...and then somewhere along the way emotion got thrown into it. While I sympathize with anybody that's lost trust along the way, and while I empathize with those of you that have endured hardships in your life - this discussion was never going to find a happy end with emotions thrown into the mix. Things happen to people every single day that are terrible. It's a fundamental and unfortunate fact of life. However, the folks that perpetrated those injustices are not the folks that you're chatting with here.

And considering that none of you personally know LI (and perhaps none of you really personally know each other, for that matter) it's unfair to throw emotion into the mix and automatically bring judgment because somebody doesn't agree with your point of view.

Did anybody notice how many of you were essentially ganging up on LI simply because he did not support your point of view? Every person is entitled to their own opinions. And if you are allowed to state your own opinions and emotional anecdotes and such - then why shouldn't everybody else?

You say that you weren't trying to change LI's mind - but if you go back and carefully read over your posts, you really were. You were trying to get him to share his personal viewpoints and share his stories and help you better understand his point of view - so that you could show him exactly where he was wrong and how much more right you are.

I mean no personal insult or upset - and I choose to refrain from expressing my opinions of where I stand on the trust issue for the time being, as that is my right.

However, I would note that it is incredibly rude for anybody to make assumptions about a persons character - or who they are outside of this community based on an argument that did not go their way.

You swoop in with the last comment and think you can fulfill yourself by making snide and rude comments about a person that you don't even really know. You call him 'devoid of any human emotion.' That's an unnecessary insult and it's a tactic bullies use to get their way. Name calling and baseless assumptions are elementary, at best.

Furthermore, your comment - 'Also seeks to make sure that his point while made well, is the most important point.' Do you realize how backwards that sounds? LI was defending his point of view because people kept trying to get him to change his mind. Because you folks kept trying to convince him that YOUR points were the most important. So you're accusing him of what you were doing, essentially.

This was a discussion about what folks do to cope when trust is broken. I was of the mind that everybody is entitled to their own opinions. Or is it that everybody is only entitled to their own opinions if those opinions match the status quo?

I'm terribly sorry, Alana, for crowding up your thread with my overly lengthy post.

 

[Light Ice]

Thank you, darlin'.

But they're no match for me.

 

[APassionateFlame]

Thank you, darlin'.

But they're no match for me.

You're welcome, of course. ^_^

When it comes to wit and logic, we'd be hard pressed to find anybody that's really a match for you. You've certainly got a way with words.

But you know me - I tend to get defensive of folks that are my friends. One of those pesky things I do, I suppose.

 

[Light Ice]

You're welcome, of course. ^_^

When it comes to wit and logic, we'd be hard pressed to find anybody that's really a match for you. You've certainly got a way with words.

But you know me - I tend to get defensive of folks that are my friends. One of those pesky things I do, I suppose.

This also serves to remind me I neglected our story terribly, huh?

 

[Alana_]

Passion, don't worry. You're more than welcome to post, that was what the thread is for., as too for anyone that would chose to reply.

And don't worry about L.I. I adore him, he knows it, and I also know he's well able to take care of himself. I think he actually likes rattling cages.

 

[Light Ice]

Passion, don't worry. You're more than welcome to post, that was what the thread is for., as too for anyone that would chose to reply.

And don't worry about L.I. I adore him, he knows it, and I also know he's well able to take care of himself. I think he actually likes rattling cages.

Alana is one of the very best people I've met, here or otherwise, to be honest. She's an absolute doll.

 

[APassionateFlame]

Passion, don't worry. You're more than welcome to post, that was what the thread is for., as too for anyone that would chose to reply.

And don't worry about L.I. I adore him, he knows it, and I also know he's well able to take care of himself. I think he actually likes rattling cages.

Oh, I don't worry about LI. I'm fairly certain he does indeed enjoy rattling cages. And he's so good at doing so. ^_^

This also serves to remind me I neglected our story terribly, huh?

Why yes, yes you did. I was starting to believe that you'd forgotten about little 'ole me. I'd even taken to pouting, and I would like if you would as promptly as possible remedy the situation.

 

[APassionateFlame]

Alana is one of the very best people I've met, here or otherwise, to be honest. She's an absolute doll.

And a fantastic writer to boot! She's one of the few writers I've (quietly) stalked about these pages with the hope that maybe I'll get a chance to write with her one of these years. ^_^

 

[Light Ice]

Yeah, I owe Alana a post, too.

And Sci Fi Girl.

But that's typical of me.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

APassionateFlame- Interesting.

While, perhaps I was overly judgmental and sensitive at the time of this posting, and I will admit to that much. There were many things at play in that conversation, none of which, and please excuse me here, none of which are your business.

I have taken my time to get to know LI and find him still a bit of a bastard, but he knows my thoughts on him.

As for my own emotions playing in that conversation, you too, were a bit emotional, c'est possible because you were defending a friend? As was I. Chronie was/is a dear friend of mine.

I do not excuse my comments only seek a way to explain them. Having a bigger picture can make things a bit more clearer, yes?

 

[APassionateFlame]

APassionateFlame- Interesting.

While, perhaps I was overly judgmental and sensitive at the time of this posting, and I will admit to that much. There were many things at play in that conversation, none of which, and please excuse me here, none of which are your business.

I have taken my time to get to know LI and find him still a bit of a bastard, but he knows my thoughts on him.

As for my own emotions playing in that conversation, you too, were a bit emotional, c'est possible because you were defending a friend? As was I. Chronie was/is a dear friend of mine.

I do not excuse my comments only seek a way to explain them. Having a bigger picture can make things a bit more clearer, yes?

You'll perhaps excuse me for noting that if the things posted here were not any of my business - why were they posted in a public format for anybody to see? I would also point out that I never said that you were wrong or right in your opinions.

Only that I disagreed with the idea that anybody should turn to insults to get their point across.

I believe I also stated that I did not, under any circumstances, mean any insult to anybody.

I reiterate that, now.

And for the record, I like to think that I'm a good enough person that I would defend anybody in this sort of situation - whether they are my friend or not.

 

[Ausus_girl13]

You'll perhaps excuse me for noting that if the things posted here were not any of my business - why were they posted in a public format for anybody to see? I would also point out that I never said that you were wrong or right in your opinions.

Only that I disagreed with the idea that anybody should turn to insults to get their point across.

I believe I also stated that I did not, under any circumstances, mean any insult to anybody.

I reiterate that, now.

And for the record, I like to think that I'm a good enough person that I would defend anybody in this sort of situation - whether they are my friend or not.

That's awesome.
Good for you.

A bit of advice. In most of the conversations, not all, but alot of the conversations taking place here on the forums, have an undercurrent. Where two or more people may be posting here, and discussing elsewhere. That's the part that's none of your business. In this case, and that's what I was alluding to.

While Chronie and myself were chatting, we were also posting here. Two people can evoke emotions out of each other that were otherwise not evident on the boards.

As for my insults, weak as they were, my history is, well, violent and emotional, and when called into question, I am hard pressed to not find myself on the defensive. And that, is a weakness of my own.

As for LI, and coming to his rescue and defense, it's very sweet of you. Really, I do mean that, but almost wholly unnecessary especially as he and I have worked past this particular point in our friendship.

And as for you and I, I do welcome you to the lounges and hope that you enjoy your time here. It's an amazing place.

 

[Britwitch]

Another late comer to the topic but... shrugs ...I think trust is something you have to earn from others and so have to give with consideration. I think things that happen in our childhood are something different and cannot be viewed in the same way as things that happen when we are more 'worldly'. While trust has been violated on a certain level when we are children/young, it is not the same as if a friend lets us down, a boyfriend/girlfriend cheats etc. etc.

I have an example and it's not being given in the hope of sympathy and the like, it is an example to help explain my point of view.

When I was 14 I got into a taxi to take me home after an audition.
I trusted the driver would take me home, that's what taxi drivers do.
He didn't.
Long story short, he drove me almost home and then 'off the beaten track', he beat me and raped me to within an inch of my life.
Was I wrong to trust the driver, possibly, but at that stage of my life I had no reason not to.
And certainly don't blame myself for what happened.

Betrayals that have happened in my adult years I view differently. Some, yes, I see as being totally unforgivable whilst others...with hindsight I can see things I could have done, should have noticed to prevent them from happening or to remove myself from the relationship/situation before the betrayal could occur. I use these observances to help me avoid such circumstances in the future.

I think this is one of those subjects everyone will see differently because of the fact that we all deal with these things differently and while I do think some of the posts in this thread got a little 'personal', I think they are all worth reading individually as there are valid and interesting points in them all. Just because they don't fit our personal interpretation, doesn't make them wrong.

So there, that's my two cents.

 

[Light Ice]

As long as the women agree that I'm fuckable the rest really doesn't fucking matter to me.

 

[Light Ice]

As long as the women agree that I'm fuckable the rest really doesn't fucking matter to me.

ETA: The timing of this was unfortunate. Had I known Brit's post was above mine I wouldn't have been so careless.

 

[Britwitch]

As long as the women agree that I'm fuckable the rest really doesn't fucking matter to me.

I didn't realise that was ever in doubt...?

 

[Britwitch]

ETA: The timing of this was unfortunate. Had I known Brit's post was above mine I wouldn't have been so careless.

That's just one of those things...not to worry!
Love you anyway