When do you know if what you have written is any good?

[holliday1960]

I think there's something to be said for the notion that those who "succeed" (whatever that means) are those who keep going in spite of negative feedback. I've been around here long enough to see some writers emerge that I think are good, and who receive positive feedback, but they can't seem to handle the negative feedback, and they disappear. It puzzles me. I've received positive feedback, for which I'm extremely grateful--it tickles me to this day, after 5 1/2 years, that people take the time to say they like something I wrote--but I've also had readers tell me that I suck and that I should stop writing. It doesn't bother me. I look at it and ask myself if there's anything in the criticism I can learn from (sometimes yes, more often than not, no) and then I start my next story. And I strongly believe this: if you want to write, you have to have that attitude. It takes a thick skin, just like acting, or stand-up comedy, or displaying your paintings at an exhibition. You'll never please everyone, and you don't have to.

Let me be frank in my response to this, SD. At the end of the day, what's 'good', and what isn't, is measured by the emotional responses of each individual reader or writer.

I'm compelled to respond to your belief that successful writers should have a 'thick skin'. No one should learn to tolerate cruel and unnecessary verbal brutality in the guise of constructive criticisms in order to be called a 'successful writer'. To my ears, it sounds like you're saying, "Toughen up, Buttercup", or you will never succeed at writing, or anything else for that matter. Your concept of 'tough' doesn't fit every individual. Some simply aren't tough. That doesn't make them any less significant. And at the end of the day, criticism is based on opinion, and opinion isn't based on fact.

We cannot know the sufferings of another person without having walked a mile in their shoes. I maintain that if we carelessly accept attitudes of over-the-top antagonism and what can only be defined as bullying behavior, then we've failed as human beings in our duty to one another. (Our duty to be kind and compassionate, to see the perceived shortcomings of others and to encourage them to be and do better, rather than break their spirit and crush their belief in themselves.) I don't claim to know the answer of how to curtail or manage the abusive comments. Any in some circles, they're considered a badge of courage. I think the site does all it can to offer a means of control. In the end, it should be a matter of 'self-control', but as has been demonstrated time and again, good manners and self-control went out the window several generations ago.

In defense of the meek, there are children in this world, who have never heard, "I love you", or even, "Good job" from anyone. Those people grow into adults and they carry those wounds into adulthood. It teaches them to hate themselves, and there's NOTHING constructive in that. Can you even imagine being a grown-assed man who looks in a mirror every day and hates the person he sees? And we are surprised by this.

True strength is achieved through compassion, understanding, and a sense of value as an individual. Those are the things we should encourage in ourselves and others. Writers have the opportunity to do that via their stories. I've seen some pretty compelling examples of writing in that respect on this very site. But our society, as a whole, is so focused on competition and winning that we forget how it feels to 'fall down' in front of a crowd. Bruises fade with time, but a broken-heart seldom, if ever completely heals.

Not everyone wants to be reminded that they aren't 'good enough' to compete with the 'popular crowd'. (Which again raises the question of 'popular' by whose standards?)

 

[SimonDoom]

Let me be frank in my response to this, SD. At the end of the day, what's 'good', and what isn't, is measured by the emotional responses of each individual reader or writer.

I'm compelled to respond to your belief that successful writers should have a 'thick skin'. No one should learn to tolerate cruel and unnecessary verbal brutality in the guise of constructive criticisms in order to be called a 'successful writer'. To my ears, it sounds like you're saying, "Toughen up, Buttercup", or you will never succeed at writing, or anything else for that matter. Your concept of 'tough' doesn't fit every individual. Some simply aren't tough. That doesn't make them any less significant. And at the end of the day, criticism is based on opinion, and opinion isn't based on fact.

We cannot know the sufferings of another person without having walked a mile in their shoes. I maintain that if we carelessly accept attitudes of over-the-top antagonism and what can only be defined as bullying behavior, then we've failed as human beings in our duty to one another. (Our duty to be kind and compassionate, to see the perceived shortcomings of others and to encourage them to be and do better, rather than break their spirit and crush their belief in themselves.) I don't claim to know the answer of how to curtail or manage the abusive comments. Any in some circles, they're considered a badge of courage. I think the site does all it can to offer a means of control. In the end, it should be a matter of 'self-control', but as has been demonstrated time and again, good manners and self-control went out the window several generations ago.

In defense of the meek, there are children in this world, who have never heard, "I love you", or even, "Good job" from anyone. Those people grow into adults and they carry those wounds into adulthood. It teaches them to hate themselves, and there's NOTHING constructive in that. Can you even imagine being a grown-assed man who looks in a mirror every day and hates the person he sees? And we are surprised by this.

True strength is achieved through compassion, understanding, and a sense of value as an individual. Those are the things we should encourage in ourselves and others. Writers have the opportunity to do that via their stories. I've seen some pretty compelling examples of writing in that respect on this very site. But our society, as a whole, is so focused on competition and winning that we forget how it feels to 'fall down' in front of a crowd. Bruises fade with time, but a broken-heart seldom, if ever completely heals.

Not everyone wants to be reminded that they aren't 'good enough' to compete with the 'popular crowd'. (Which again raises the question of 'popular' by whose standards?)

I respectfully disagree with you.

We can extol the virtues of kindness and compassion all we want--I extol them, too--but life is hard, and that's a fact, and if you want to achieve something in this life you have to be able to deal with adversity. If you want to be good at anything, you have to put yourself out there and risk disapproval, criticism, and failure. You have to be able to fall down and get back up.

I hope you do not think that my message to some people is that they are not "good enough to compete with the popular crowd," because I don't think I've ever said anything that can be remotely construed that way. I don't think that way at all. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "popular crowd" at Literotica. I do not urge anyone to try to appeal to a "popular crowd," which I don't think exists. I think writers should follow their own muses. But I also believe that writers should be prepared to be criticized and to deal with it. Being able to deal with criticism is like subjecting a blade to a whetstone: it makes you sharper, and better at what you do. That's true whether you are learning how to be a carpenter, a piano player, an accountant, or a writer. Or anything.

So, yes, I think acquiring a thick skin is something a writer should try to do. You will become a better writer if you do.

 

[holliday1960]

I respectfully disagree with you.

We can extol the virtues of kindness and compassion all we want--I extol them, too--but life is hard, and that's a fact, and if you want to achieve something in this life you have to be able to deal with adversity. If you want to be good at anything, you have to put yourself out there and risk disapproval, criticism, and failure. You have to be able to fall down and get back up.

I hope you do not think that my message to some people is that they are not "good enough to compete with the popular crowd," because I don't think I've ever said anything that can be remotely construed that way. I don't think that way at all. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "popular crowd" at Literotica. I do not urge anyone to try to appeal to a "popular crowd," which I don't think exists. I think writers should follow their own muses. But I also believe that writers should be prepared to be criticized and to deal with it. Being able to deal with criticism is like subjecting a blade to a whetstone: it makes you sharper, and better at what you do. That's true whether you are learning how to be a carpenter, a piano player, an accountant, or a writer. Or anything.

So, yes, I think acquiring a thick skin is something a writer should try to do. You will become a better writer if you do.

This isn't the first time we've had this discussion, nor will it be the last, I'm sure. And we always manage to agree to disagree. LOL What I'm saying, in case I misconstrued my point, is that there is a way to be diplomatically critical. The brutality of some people isn't even about the stories on Lit. It's personal, for whatever warped reason. It's done because they can, not because they're trying to improve the writer's skills.

'Diplomatically put' for instance is something like, "The conversation felt forced to me." Or, "I think you skirted around the core meaning of the scene." What the majority of comments I'm saying are totally out of line will do is specifically run new writers off the site. Things like, "I know who you really are, and I know where you live." Or "Why don't you do us all a favor and die?" I've been called names like filthy cunt, and worse, told I should leave the site before I'm exposed for who I really am. And much, much worse. I've been told don't have enough talent to be anything useful or successful.

No, I didn't mean to imply you said anything at all. What I AM saying is that when you write, 'Writers should develop a thicker skin', the underlying message that some people are hearing is that you have no sympathy or empathy for anyone who is discouraged from writing by threats, bullying, name calling, personal insults, etc. I'm sure that not a single writer here can say that ALL the comments they've been given were 'good'. And many of the critical ones, perhaps spurred them to keep trying to improve. By contrast, my experience has been that a HUGE number of would-be writers left the site because of comments, misinformation, and deliberate manipulations designed for the purpose of causing them to quit.

Many of the successful writers here have endured the same sort of ugliness, but when you examine who they are in RL, they have some sort of background that allows them to gloss-over the ugly comments, and move on. Let's face it... we have people from all walks of life here. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, pilots, producers, writers, all sorts of literary successes. It's easier to get beyond self-doubt if you have something or someone to bolster you. Some people don't have as many or as significant instances of success in their history to build that kind of self confidence. The lack of confidence makes them prone to turning up the volume on negativity.

I agree with you that life is hard and that overcoming adversity is part of it. We're not talking about normal adversity here. That would be learning how to string together a sentence with proper grammar and punctuation. That's adversity, and it's hard. But brutal personal attacks because you're not a 'friend' of some particularly popular writer isn't adversity. And if we become immune to that kind of bullying, then we fail to be decent humans. I could give you a list of very talented people who either DID quit writing, or almost quit writing for the very reasons we're at odds about, Simon. I'm glad to say that I did try to offer them encouragement to continue. But for many of them, it wasn't an easy road. I don't believe having a thicker skin in any way contributes to the quality of anyone's writing. But we still friends, right? lol

 

[SimonDoom]

This isn't the first time we've had this discussion, nor will it be the last, I'm sure. And we always manage to agree to disagree. LOL What I'm saying, in case I misconstrued my point, is that there is a way to be diplomatically critical. The brutality of some people isn't even about the stories on Lit. It's personal, for whatever warped reason. It's done because they can, not because they're trying to improve the writer's skills.

'Diplomatically put' for instance is something like, "The conversation felt forced to me." Or, "I think you skirted around the core meaning of the scene." What the majority of comments I'm saying are totally out of line will do is specifically run new writers off the site. Things like, "I know who you really are, and I know where you live." Or "Why don't you do us all a favor and die?" I've been called names like filthy cunt, and worse, told I should leave the site before I'm exposed for who I really am. And much, much worse. I've been told don't have enough talent to be anything useful or successful.

No, I didn't mean to imply you said anything at all. What I AM saying is that when you write, 'Writers should develop a thicker skin', the underlying message that some people are hearing is that you have no sympathy or empathy for anyone who is discouraged from writing by threats, bullying, name calling, personal insults, etc. I'm sure that not a single writer here can say that ALL the comments they've been given were 'good'. And many of the critical ones, perhaps spurred them to keep trying to improve. By contrast, my experience has been that a HUGE number of would-be writers left the site because of comments, misinformation, and deliberate manipulations designed for the purpose of causing them to quit.

Many of the successful writers here have endured the same sort of ugliness, but when you examine who they are in RL, they have some sort of background that allows them to gloss-over the ugly comments, and move on. Let's face it... we have people from all walks of life here. Doctors, lawyers, teachers, nurses, pilots, producers, writers, all sorts of literary successes. It's easier to get beyond self-doubt if you have something or someone to bolster you. Some people don't have as many or as significant instances of success in their history to build that kind of self confidence. The lack of confidence makes them prone to turning up the volume on negativity.

I agree with you that life is hard and that overcoming adversity is part of it. We're not talking about normal adversity here. That would be learning how to string together a sentence with proper grammar and punctuation. That's adversity, and it's hard. But brutal personal attacks because you're not a 'friend' of some particularly popular writer isn't adversity. And if we become immune to that kind of bullying, then we fail to be decent humans. I could give you a list of very talented people who either DID quit writing, or almost quit writing for the very reasons we're at odds about, Simon. I'm glad to say that I did try to offer them encouragement to continue. But for many of them, it wasn't an easy road. I don't believe having a thicker skin in any way contributes to the quality of anyone's writing. But we still friends, right? lol

Well, of course. I enjoy your stories and I always appreciate everything you say. You say it well even if I sometimes (but not usually) disagree.

I was a competitive debater when I was younger, so my tolerance--appetite, even--for argument and disagreement exceeds that of a normal person, and it might at times seem to border on the fetishistic. I admit it. I know what it's like to be booed and heckled on stage. I've suffered defeat and humiliation. It was awful. If you have not experienced something like that, you have no idea what it's like. But I came away from it better and stronger than before. I relate to the Michael Palin character in the classic Monty Python "Argument Sketch." (If you haven't seen it, look it up!).

I do NOT mean to say to anyone that you are a lesser person if you do not have a thick skin. I also don't excuse a-holes, of which there are plenty here at Literotica, as everywhere. But in response to your comment about how my remarks might come across, I'll say this: there are worse things than appearing to be insensitive. Sometimes it's important to say things that might be taken to be insensitive, because truth is uncomfortable, and truth is more important than comfort. I don't claim to have any special access to truth, but I like to try to get at the truth through discussion even if it's uncomfortable. And I believe this is the truth: you will become a better writer if you put your work out there and steel yourself against the crap you are likely to receive, and just keep going. The alternative is defeat, and not reaching your potential.

I cannot control a-holes on the Internet. I can just control myself, and what I do. And I think that's the attitude to have here at Literotica, and everywhere.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm compelled to respond to your belief that successful writers should have a 'thick skin'. No one should learn to tolerate cruel and unnecessary verbal brutality in the guise of constructive criticisms in order to be called a 'successful writer'. To my ears, it sounds like you're saying, "Toughen up, Buttercup", or you will never succeed at writing, or anything else for that matter. Your concept of 'tough' doesn't fit every individual. Some simply aren't tough. That doesn't make them any less significant. And at the end of the day, criticism is based on opinion, and opinion isn't based on fact.

History proves time and time and time again that those who cry and fold their tent over the 'cruel' criticism of others don't have much success in their endeavors. If a writer here wants to get butthurt over nasty comments from faceless idiots, no one will stop him. So, the choice is to blame others and their cruelty for bringing you down, or recognize the difference between true constructive criticism and bullshit from cruel idiots and take it as that. If it's bullshit, then it's not true and therefore there should be no reason to be butthurt - unless your motivation to write is rooted in simply obtaining validation from others, in which case you leave your chances of success up to the whims of others and thoroughly disempowers yourself. Have fun with that.

So yes, in a nutshell ... "suck it the fuck up, buttercup".

 

[holliday1960]

History proves time and time and time again that those who cry and fold their tent over the 'cruel' criticism of others don't have much success in their endeavors. If a writer here wants to get butthurt over nasty comments from faceless idiots, no one will stop him. So, the choice is to blame others and their cruelty for bringing you down, or recognize the difference between true constructive criticism and bullshit from cruel idiots and take it as that. If it's bullshit, then it's not true and therefore there should be no reason to be butthurt - unless your motivation to write is rooted in simply obtaining validation from others, in which case you leave your chances of success up to the whims of others and thoroughly disempowers yourself. Have fun with that.

So yes, in a nutshell ... "suck it the fuck up, buttercup".

And...there it is. You can always bet on a sure thing.

 

[Voboy]

And...there it is. You can always bet on a sure thing.

With respect, I'd mostly agree with Simon and Pink. You build resiliency by failing, learning, and then overcoming. Which makes you a person better equipped to deal with Real Life, which happens whether you're ready for it or not.

Fail early, fail often. I've seen scores, even hundreds, of people who've never really had to deal with setbacks until relatively late in life, when they fail an IB exam, or end up third in their class instead of first, or fail to get into the Naval Academy, or don't make it onto the varsity water polo team, or whatever. These people have known nothing but success academically, and the results of that first failure relatively late in life, and for fairly high stakes (in the case of a rejection from an elite college, say) can lead to a regressive reaction out of proportion to the actual nature of the failure. This can lead to a global explanatory style, which in turn is a predictor of clinical depression.

By contrast, a kid toughened by routine academic or athletic hardship and failure learns that not every setback is a life-altering event. She learns that she has agency: that her own reactions and perseverence can lead her to better achievements. She learns how to live within her locus of control, which will reduce stress for the rest of her life and, quite probably, lead to a better qualitative and quantitative lifespan.

It's difficult for me to un-see the benefits of failure when the stakes are fairly low. They are phenomenally low here, on a free sex-story site, making this an ideal place to fail... as long as you've failed before, in more consequential pursuits. That's how you learn perspective, teach yourself to succeed, and become a stronger person.

JMO. YMMV.

 

[holliday1960]

Well, of course. I enjoy your stories and I always appreciate everything you say. You say it well even if I sometimes (but not usually) disagree.

I was a competitive debater when I was younger, so my tolerance--appetite, even--for argument and disagreement exceeds that of a normal person, and it might at times seem to border on the fetishistic. I admit it. I know what it's like to be booed and heckled on stage. I've suffered defeat and humiliation. It was awful. If you have not experienced something like that, you have no idea what it's like. But I came away from it better and stronger than before. I relate to the Michael Palin character in the classic Monty Python "Argument Sketch." (If you haven't seen it, look it up!).

I do NOT mean to say to anyone that you are a lesser person if you do not have a thick skin. I also don't excuse a-holes, of which there are plenty here at Literotica, as everywhere. But in response to your comment about how my remarks might come across, I'll say this: there are worse things than appearing to be insensitive. Sometimes it's important to say things that might be taken to be insensitive, because truth is uncomfortable, and truth is more important than comfort. I don't claim to have any special access to truth, but I like to try to get at the truth through discussion even if it's uncomfortable. And I believe this is the truth: you will become a better writer if you put your work out there and steel yourself against the crap you are likely to receive, and just keep going. The alternative is defeat, and not reaching your potential.

I cannot control a-holes on the Internet. I can just control myself, and what I do. And I think that's the attitude to have here at Literotica, and everywhere.

Interesting. I never had the opportunity to be involved in public debate, except as an observer and once as a judge of the early rounds of a local high school state competition. I enjoyed the experience, although I hardly considered myself qualified for the position.
In an effort to bring our debate back around to Sam's OP, do you think it's fair to say that the measure of 'good' or 'bad' writing is more subjective than not? I feel like technical skill, that is, following rules of grammar, punctuation, vocabulary, etc. might be one standard, but surely that isn't all-encompassing of the various aspects of writing, is it? Or is it? I'm thinking that it's possible you would be more lenient in 'scoring higher marks' based on effort? (What I'm asking is when you read a story, do you give proverbial points for a writer just having made the effort?)

 

[SimonDoom]

Interesting. I never had the opportunity to be involved in public debate, except as an observer and once as a judge of the early rounds of a local high school state competition. I enjoyed the experience, although I hardly considered myself qualified for the position.
In an effort to bring our debate back around to Sam's OP, do you think it's fair to say that the measure of 'good' or 'bad' writing is more subjective than not? I feel like technical skill, that is, following rules of grammar, punctuation, vocabulary, etc. might be one standard, but surely that isn't all-encompassing of the various aspects of writing, is it? Or is it? I'm thinking that it's possible you would be more lenient in 'scoring higher marks' based on effort? (What I'm asking is when you read a story, do you give proverbial points for a writer just having made the effort?)

This is a great question, and this is my answer: there's a middle ground between "there's one objective way to do things" and "do whatever you want." I cannot define it or quantify it or spell it out. I believe that writing is like building a chair. There are lots of ways to build a chair, but if the chair falls apart when you sit in it, it's a failure. I see writing as a craft, like chair-building. One should learn the nuts and bolts of it. And once you do, do what you want. But for me, personally, if the grammar/spelling/diction/punctuation sucks too much, I'm not going to like it. So my view is that writers should take at least some time to master the fundamentals.

 

[holliday1960]

With respect, I'd mostly agree with Simon and Pink. You build resiliency by failing, learning, and then overcoming. Which makes you a person better equipped to deal with Real Life, which happens whether you're ready for it or not.

Fail early, fail often. I've seen scores, even hundreds, of people who've never really had to deal with setbacks until relatively late in life, when they fail an IB exam, or end up third in their class instead of first, or fail to get into the Naval Academy, or don't make it onto the varsity water polo team, or whatever. These people have known nothing but success academically, and the results of that first failure relatively late in life, and for fairly high stakes (in the case of a rejection from an elite college, say) can lead to a regressive reaction out of proportion to the actual nature of the failure. This can lead to a global explanatory style, which in turn is a predictor of clinical depression.

By contrast, a kid toughened by routine academic or athletic hardship and failure learns that not every setback is a life-altering event. She learns that she has agency: that her own reactions and perseverence can lead her to better achievements. She learns how to live within her locus of control, which will reduce stress for the rest of her life and, quite probably, lead to a better qualitative and quantitative lifespan.

It's difficult for me to un-see the benefits of failure when the stakes are fairly low. They are phenomenally low here, on a free sex-story site, making this an ideal place to fail... as long as you've failed before, in more consequential pursuits. That's how you learn perspective, teach yourself to succeed, and become a stronger person.

JMO. YMMV.

I appreciate and understand what you're saying here, VB. And incidentally, thank you for expanding on your own ideas a bit. Here's where I take exception: I don't see myself as having failed at writing. I still write, I'm still learning and active, and I enjoy it. Initially, I felt like a failure, but then reality set in and now, I just don't contribute to this site because of its negative elements. No reflection on the site itself. Like Simon said, he can't control a-holes; neither can the management of Lit. I still enjoy reading and being the 'Lit cheerleader' and will continue to do so, as long as I'm able. I believe I've made a few writers more comfortable in being here. At least, I hope I have. And I've met a couple of decent people along the way.
I feel odd that we're now having a discussion on success or failure, because as you pointed out, VB, the stakes are low on a free site. So, what does that say about the ones who post not just negative feedback, but destructive, harmful comments? In my estimation, measuring good or bad writing isn't exactly the same as failure or success, because that would imply something ventured, something gained. (I just scared myself, because I think I'm beginning to understand some of the points in earlier posts. smh Time for me to cut outta here. LOL)

 

[holliday1960]

This is a great question, and this is my answer: there's a middle ground between "there's one objective way to do things" and "do whatever you want." I cannot define it or quantify it or spell it out. I believe that writing is like building a chair. There are lots of ways to build a chair, but if the chair falls apart when you sit in it, it's a failure. I see writing as a craft, like chair-building. One should learn the nuts and bolts of it. And once you do, do what you want. But for me, personally, if the grammar/spelling/diction/punctuation sucks too much, I'm not going to like it. So my view is that writers should take at least some time to master the fundamentals.

Understood and agreed, SD. There are days when reading a poorly edited story just isn't in me. I'm compelled to just close the cover and walk away. On the other hand, I don't fault the writer for a slip here and there. It hard to edit, especially your own work. I guess I do tend to give more praise for those who do go the extra mile in that respect. (Except for EB... I don't cut that man ANY slack for exceptional editing. He's too good at it!) LOL I think once... just once... I found ONE legitimate typo. smh. UGH! Disgusting.

 

[txblush]

I’ll toss in my two cents here. I came to Lit to find out if I had an audience. Long story, short. I discovered there were readers who liked my style and story. Later I wanted to take it a step further and paid to have my story professionally critiqued.

Here’s the thing about having a tough skin and throwing in the towel. I didn’t give up because of one negative comment that made me laugh, or when I received the critique that basically said I needed to revise my novel entirely. I gave up because I believed I had one story in me to tell and didn’t have to heart to start all over again after working on it for over a year.

I want to thank holliday1960 for pointing out that not all writers need to suck it up, buttercup.

And I’ll add this… I don’t believe writing is about having a thick skin. To me it’s about having the courage to step out in the open and join a community. I did it and I’m a better writer because of the tips I’ve gathered from reading the forums, and from working with a VE who helped me learn a bit more about grammar by giving me examples when I first became a member of Lit.

Will I ever post another story here for others to constructively critique? Maybe. *shrugs* Only time will tell because unlike other writers here I can’t write when my muse decides to take a long hiatus. I’m talking over a decade without a word from her folks and then BAM she comes charging in with a scene that she just has to tell me on my commute to work. It’s taken me a year to complete the draft of three novels before I gained enough confidence to try my hand at editing it by using the tips I’ve learned here and elsewhere.

My worse offense according to Grammarly is comma placement.

Believe me when I say it’s not easy learning the craft of writing but I have a passion for it and couldn’t live without it.

 

[Voboy]

I appreciate and understand what you're saying here, VB. And incidentally, thank you for expanding on your own ideas a bit. Here's where I take exception: I don't see myself as having failed at writing. I still write, I'm still learning and active, and I enjoy it. Initially, I felt like a failure, but then reality set in and now, I just don't contribute to this site because of its negative elements. No reflection on the site itself. Like Simon said, he can't control a-holes; neither can the management of Lit. I still enjoy reading and being the 'Lit cheerleader' and will continue to do so, as long as I'm able. I believe I've made a few writers more comfortable in being here. At least, I hope I have. And I've met a couple of decent people along the way.
I feel odd that we're now having a discussion on success or failure, because as you pointed out, VB, the stakes are low on a free site. So, what does that say about the ones who post not just negative feedback, but destructive, harmful comments? In my estimation, measuring good or bad writing isn't exactly the same as failure or success, because that would imply something ventured, something gained. (I just scared myself, because I think I'm beginning to understand some of the points in earlier posts. smh Time for me to cut outta here. LOL)

But this is why I’ve always believed in being my own best critic. The hurtful comments of others? They only ”hurt” if they have meaning or depth: if they come from certain readers, or if they reflect a thoughtful mind, or whatever. Those? We should pay attention to those, and care about them.

A drive-by troll with her mind made up about a category? Nope. Delete. Move on.

Because I know that troll is wrong, see. My previous failures have taught me to be a fairly good writer, which… is why I’m my own critic. If I post the story, it’s a “good“ story to me. So that makes it successful, in a way, because if I think it’s good, then it’s conveyed whatever message I set it out to convey.

Everything after that is just feedback. When you’ve REALLY gotten a tongue-lashing, for real, with real consequences to your job or even your life? The feedback here is nothing.

 

[SimonDoom]

But this is why I’ve always believed in being my own best critic. The hurtful comments of others? They only ”hurt” if they have meaning or depth: if they come from certain readers, or if they reflect a thoughtful mind, or whatever. Those? We should pay attention to those, and care about them.

A drive-by troll with her mind made up about a category? Nope. Delete. Move on.

Because I know that troll is wrong, see. My previous failures have taught me to be a fairly good writer, which… is why I’m my own critic. If I post the story, it’s a “good“ story to me. So that makes it successful, in a way, because if I think it’s good, then it’s conveyed whatever message I set it out to convey.

Everything after that is just feedback. When you’ve REALLY gotten a tongue-lashing, for real, with real consequences to your job or even your life? The feedback here is nothing.

This describes my feelings exactly. I care about what others say when I have reason to believe that their opinion is based on something. Comments by trolls just roll off my back. I cannot imagine being bothered by them.

"Success" at Literotica is purely subjective: if you are getting what you want out of contributing here, you are successful. By that measure I've been successful beyond anything I would have imagined when I started publishing stories. It's incredibly fun to write stories about sex. The upside is so much greater than the downside.

And, as you say, there are no real consequences here. You can't lose your job. Focus on the positive, and keep going.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Understood and agreed, SD. There are days when reading a poorly edited story just isn't in me. I'm compelled to just close the cover and walk away. On the other hand, I don't fault the writer for a slip here and there. It hard to edit, especially your own work. I guess I do tend to give more praise for those who do go the extra mile in that respect. (Except for EB... I don't cut that man ANY slack for exceptional editing. He's too good at it!) LOL I think once... just once... I found ONE legitimate typo. smh. UGH! Disgusting.

Gee! And further up, same thread, there's a drive-through reckons I'm a complete knob. Careful there, Holliday, you'll be accused of being a fully paid up member of a clique, and that would never do .

 

[Wark2002]

I think is a little disingenuous to just say “I don’t care what others think.” Of course you do! You put it out here for others to read - of course you want them to enjoy it! The question is more the degree to which you obsess about it. I dropped something here the other day and I am happy to say that in spite of some inexplicable one bombs (I am not the greatest but it’s certainly worth more than one star, lol) it has surpassed my expectations. But I know some of my things are not as successful (come on, there’s got to be an audience for Aphrodite somewhere) but they are close to my heart and still deserve to see the light of day. I’m happy to get them out there and particularly in this community. So when they drop, I check the feedback (nobody seems to write comments anymore) regularly for a few days, and then move on. I’m too old to be bothered by it lol.
How do you know if you are good? Trust me, you know already. It’s nice to get the affirmation, very nice, but you know when you’re good, even at your most self critical moment.

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5430653&page=submissions

 

[000zing]

I think is a little disingenuous to just say “I don’t care what others think.”
How do you know if you are good? Trust me, you know already. It’s nice to get the affirmation, very nice, but you know when you’re good, even at your most self critical moment.

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5430653&page=submissions

Statement B tends to contradict statement A, I would say. Affirmation would really be for those who genuinely cannot trust their "assessment of self" and would come therefore presumably as an almighty relief! I would guess that they are the ones who put up the majority of what they write here.

 

[holliday1960]

Gee! And further up, same thread, there's a drive-through reckons I'm a complete knob. Careful there, Holliday, you'll be accused of being a fully paid up member of a clique, and that would never do .

Well EB, you and I both know, it wouldn't be the first time I've hung my britches on my own pitchfork, now would it? How's it hanging there, buddy? Long time, no see. I was just thinking about making the great escape, and along comes Himself! Lemme give them ears a good chewing for yah, you ol' reprobate, you! (Hey, I like how that sounded! What IS a reprobate, anyway?) Never mind. I like how it sounds. Imma use that in my next posted story. You know I will, right?

 

[holliday1960]

I think is a little disingenuous to just say “I don’t care what others think.” Of course you do! You put it out here for others to read - of course you want them to enjoy it! The question is more the degree to which you obsess about it. I dropped something here the other day and I am happy to say that in spite of some inexplicable one bombs (I am not the greatest but it’s certainly worth more than one star, lol) it has surpassed my expectations. But I know some of my things are not as successful (come on, there’s got to be an audience for Aphrodite somewhere) but they are close to my heart and still deserve to see the light of day. I’m happy to get them out there and particularly in this community. So when they drop, I check the feedback (nobody seems to write comments anymore) regularly for a few days, and then move on. I’m too old to be bothered by it lol.
How do you know if you are good? Trust me, you know already. It’s nice to get the affirmation, very nice, but you know when you’re good, even at your most self critical moment.

https://www.literotica.com/stories/memberpage.php?uid=5430653&page=submissions

I dunno, Wark... in this thread alone, it's been repeated that comments by readers aren't worth a penny or a pound. How many readers peruse the AH? Who knows? But for those who do come here, it gives them no incentive for leaving their mark on a story. For the past six or eight years, I really thought I was helping by leaving comments and scores on a fair number of stories. But, after this discussion, I'm convinced that none of it matters. Cest La Vie. Not my monkeys; not my circus. Have a good one, all.

 

[Omenainen]

I respectfully disagree with you.

We can extol the virtues of kindness and compassion all we want--I extol them, too--but life is hard, and that's a fact, and if you want to achieve something in this life you have to be able to deal with adversity. If you want to be good at anything, you have to put yourself out there and risk disapproval, criticism, and failure. You have to be able to fall down and get back up.

I hope you do not think that my message to some people is that they are not "good enough to compete with the popular crowd," because I don't think I've ever said anything that can be remotely construed that way. I don't think that way at all. I'm not sure there is such a thing as a "popular crowd" at Literotica. I do not urge anyone to try to appeal to a "popular crowd," which I don't think exists. I think writers should follow their own muses. But I also believe that writers should be prepared to be criticized and to deal with it. Being able to deal with criticism is like subjecting a blade to a whetstone: it makes you sharper, and better at what you do. That's true whether you are learning how to be a carpenter, a piano player, an accountant, or a writer. Or anything.

So, yes, I think acquiring a thick skin is something a writer should try to do. You will become a better writer if you do.

To Simon and Voboy and others who think “grow a thicker skin” is an actual advice: to me that just reads “I’m not very sensitive and not empathetic enough to understand anyone who is”. I don’t think it’s impossible at all for someone to be so sensitive and for one reason or another in such a fragile state that even the comments of strangers can feel devastating. I myself think that if I’d received some kind of shattering criticism on my first story I would never have published the second.

Now, it is possible that there are professions in which it is not possible to function if you are that sensitive and that brittle, for example I can imagine that no politician can be that way. But to say to an artist that “you are just too sensitive” is, in my opinion, not reasonable. An artist doesn’t have to be competitive and tough. There are perfectly valid ways to explore one’s creativity even if one is “not tough enough” to receive an earful by those who are pissed they didn’t get off because the character did or didn’t have pubic hair.

I just want to point out to you not-so-sensitive ones that to say to someone that “you should just ignore the comments” or “you should just grow a thicker skin” is essentially saying “have you considered being something else than you are”, and that is, to put it mildly, not helpful. It can come across as silly to insulting, depending on circumstances.

 

[Omenainen]

I dunno, Wark... in this thread alone, it's been repeated that comments by readers aren't worth a penny or a pound. How many readers peruse the AH? Who knows? But for those who do come here, it gives them no incentive for leaving their mark on a story. For the past six or eight years, I really thought I was helping by leaving comments and scores on a fair number of stories. But, after this discussion, I'm convinced that none of it matters. Cest La Vie. Not my monkeys; not my circus. Have a good one, all.

Please keep leaving good comments. It is absolute gold for those who appreciate them, even if “have I written something good” is an internal feeling and doesn’t need the validation from outside.

 

[Voboy]

...

I just want to point out to you not-so-sensitive ones that to say to someone that “you should just ignore the comments” or “you should just grow a thicker skin” is essentially saying “have you considered being something else than you are”, and that is, to put it mildly, not helpful. It can come across as silly to insulting, depending on circumstances.

I meant no offense. If you're insulted, it's because you're choosing to be. My comments reflect nothing other than my opinion, which I would never expect everyone else to agree with. They're based on my experiences, my education, my training, and my personality, and of course not everyone shares those.

But that does not make my advice invalid, no matter what you think of it. I've found that hard times make strong people, and that strong people are then better able to handle hard times. Perhaps you've found something different. That's fine for you, and I hope (and trust) you're happy and successful.

I would suggest that an "artist" who finds strangers' comments "devastating" enough to consider no longer being an artist was probably not really an artist in the first place, at least not as I'd define it. To me, an artist does art because they cannot NOT do art, regardless of how it is received. They persevere at their art because it is not in them to leave it aside. It comes from inside them. That's what makes it art.

Again, YMMV.

 

[Omenainen]

I meant no offense. If you're insulted, it's because you're choosing to be. My comments reflect nothing other than my opinion, which I would never expect everyone else to agree with. They're based on my experiences, my education, my training, and my personality, and of course not everyone shares those.

But that does not make my advice invalid, no matter what you think of it. I've found that hard times make strong people, and that strong people are then better able to handle hard times. Perhaps you've found something different. That's fine for you, and I hope (and trust) you're happy and successful.

I would suggest that an "artist" who finds strangers' comments "devastating" enough to consider no longer being an artist was probably not really an artist in the first place, at least not as I'd define it. To me, an artist does art because they cannot NOT do art, regardless of how it is received. They persevere at their art because it is not in them to leave it aside. It comes from inside them. That's what makes it art.

Again, YMMV.

Yes, my mileage varies, and that was my point exactly. It might be that hard times make strong people, but my point is that not everyone is strong, and not everyone needs to be. One doesn’t need to be strong to be an artist, and one doesn’t get strong just by getting advice saying “have you considered not being you?”

I’m not insulted. I just thought I’d try to explain since you guys don’t seem to be getting it on your own.

As far as I’ve understood bad reception at Lit hasn’t stopped people from creating, it has just pushed them away from sharing their art here. Which is a perfectly valid response in my opinion.

 

[Voboy]

As far as I’ve understood bad reception at Lit hasn’t stopped people from creating, it has just pushed them away from sharing their art here. Which is a perfectly valid response in my opinion.

With respect, what makes that "valid?"

If they believe in their art, shouldn't they share it? Isn't keeping it to themselves a betrayal of what art is supposed to be?

 

[Omenainen]

With respect, what makes that "valid?"

If they believe in their art, shouldn't they share it? Isn't keeping it to themselves a betrayal of what art is supposed to be?

Why should they share it? That’s kind of throwing pearls to the swines, isn’t it? If I shared my stories here, and the readers said “this is horrible, go away and don’t come back”, then why shouldn’t I do that and, say, write for myself or publication on some more appreciative site or for commercial market or whatever. How is it a sign of success to keep doing what doesn’t work for you?

You yourself said that art comes from the inside and an artist creates because they can not be doing that. Sharing that work is a different game altogether, and Lit is not the holy measurement of success by any means.