When do you know if what you have written is any good?

[Candy_Kane54]

To get back to Sam's original question, I know my story is good if I want to go back and read it again. Since I write what I like to read, if I enjoy going back and reading it again, it's a good sign that what I've written is good.

It's nice that other readers also like my stories and rate and comment on them, since, like just about anybody else, I like confirmation that what I write is as good as I think it is.

My only disappointment (so far) is my story What Dreams May Come which I think is great but has only garnered a 4.54 rating. The low rating is probably due to a combination of the readers not understanding what I was trying to do and my not clearly communicating what I was trying to do (more the latter than the former in all likelihood). I am seriously thinking about re-writing it and resubmitting it in a different category one of these days.

 

[Voboy]

Why should they share it? That’s kind of throwing pearls to the swines, isn’t it? If I shared my stories here, and the readers said “this is horrible, go away and don’t come back”, then why shouldn’t I do that and, say, write for myself or publication on some more appreciative site or for commercial market or whatever. How is it a sign of success to keep doing what doesn’t work for you?

You yourself said that art comes from the inside and an artist creates because they can not be doing that. Sharing that work is a different game altogether, and Lit is not the holy measurement of success by any means.

This gets back to the fundamental question the OP is asking, though, and to my answer:

Your art is good when you think it is. it's an expression of YOU.

So post it and let the trolls be damned. Their opinion should not matter to a person who believes in what they create, surely. Is it sometimes useful as feedback? Sure. Is it just as often mindless vitriol? Of course. Knowing the difference is not all that difficult.

 

[Auden James]

With respect, what makes that "valid?"

If they believe in their art, shouldn't they share it? Isn't keeping it to themselves a betrayal of what art is supposed to be?

It's a "perfectly valid" response, indeed, just as Omenainen put it, for if you write to be read (not only by yourself), you write for an audience—ideally a target audience you yourself have set out clearly before writing what you intend to publish—and if you then find that at some place chosen for publication said (target) audience just isn't there, then it is only reasonable to refrain from publishing there again. (Indeed, now that I think of it, if you were to keep pushing your writing on people who have clearly no interest in it or only an insufficient understanding of it, you may very well then come to be regarded—at least by them—as some kind of troll or annoyance.)

You can believe in your art all you want, but if there's no one—or not the right one—to share it with, it's not at all a "betrayal" to not share it. Sharing for sharing's sake isn't an imperative in art, at least not as far as I know.

 

[SimonDoom]

To Simon and Voboy and others who think “grow a thicker skin” is an actual advice: to me that just reads “I’m not very sensitive and not empathetic enough to understand anyone who is”. I don’t think it’s impossible at all for someone to be so sensitive and for one reason or another in such a fragile state that even the comments of strangers can feel devastating. I myself think that if I’d received some kind of shattering criticism on my first story I would never have published the second.

Now, it is possible that there are professions in which it is not possible to function if you are that sensitive and that brittle, for example I can imagine that no politician can be that way. But to say to an artist that “you are just too sensitive” is, in my opinion, not reasonable. An artist doesn’t have to be competitive and tough. There are perfectly valid ways to explore one’s creativity even if one is “not tough enough” to receive an earful by those who are pissed they didn’t get off because the character did or didn’t have pubic hair.

I just want to point out to you not-so-sensitive ones that to say to someone that “you should just ignore the comments” or “you should just grow a thicker skin” is essentially saying “have you considered being something else than you are”, and that is, to put it mildly, not helpful. It can come across as silly to insulting, depending on circumstances.

This response surprises me. I don't think either Voboy or I expressed insensitivity to others' feelings or in any way excused obnoxious behavior. I make a point of trying to express myself in this forum without getting hostile or obnoxiously personal with people.

We all have different levels of sensitivity, and I appreciate that, but I also stand by what I said: if you want to get better at something, and it doesn't matter what it is, then you have to be prepared to deal with criticism, some of it unreasonable and obnoxious. Life IS that way. It doesn't matter what you do. I don't know why it's insensitive to state what I believe to be an incontrovertible fact. I don't understand how a person can deny it.

If you publish stories at Literotica, you're probably going to get criticism. Some of it is nasty. Some of it is stupid. I don't excuse it. But it's there, and it's not going to go away. It's a fact of this place. If the unpleasantness of it vitiates whatever benefit you get from posting stories, and you choose not to post more, I respect that choice. I don't judge that at all. I don't think less of an author that makes that choice. But if you WANT to achieve "success" here, whatever "success" means to you, then it will help you if you learn to weather the criticism. That seems obviously true to me. I don't understand the charge that it's insensitive. What alternative is there?

I think it's not accurate to say that Voboy and I "don't get it." I do get it. I just disagree. And that's fine. We can get along without agreeing.

 

[Voboy]

It's a "perfectly valid" response, indeed, just as Omenainen put it, for if you write to be read (not only by yourself), you write for an audience—ideally a target audience you yourself have set out clearly before writing what you intend to publish—and if you then find that at some place chosen for publication said (target) audience just isn't there, then it is only reasonable to refrain from publishing there again. (Indeed, now that I think of it, if you were to keep pushing your writing on people who have clearly no interest in it or only an insufficient understanding of it, you may very well then come to be regarded—at least by them—as some kind of troll or annoyance.)

You can believe in your art all you want, but if there's no one—or not the right one—to share it with, it's not at all a "betrayal" to not share it. Sharing for sharing's sake isn't an imperative in art, at least not as far as I know.

Let's say you write something. You post it here.

You get a nasty comment back in the first week.

You also get (let's say) 5,000 views that same week and no other nasty comments, with a fairly respectable 4.1 score and, oh, five people favoriting your work.

I have difficulty comprehending why the one nasty comment should outweigh the rest of the evidence that says your story is just fine. The audience IS there... oversensitive writers just don't see it. Because they're busy brooding over the one trollish comment.

I don't see that as a problem with the story. I see that as a problem with the writer's perspective.

This is purely hypothetical; I pulled those numbers out of my ass. But it's a reasonable interpretation of what's been said. It's also easy to turn off comments.

 

[yowser]

As far as I’ve understood bad reception at Lit hasn’t stopped people from creating, it has just pushed them away from sharing their art here. Which is a perfectly valid response in my opinion.

Both unfortunate and a loss, for all of us.

I think what most of the postings on this thread reinforce is the notion that 'thoughtful commentary,' even if sometimes negative, is valuable, while the 'utter garbage!' variety of dumpings most of us experience is worthless.

I heard a panel once from writers Michael Chabon and Ayelet Waldman (married to each other) talking about giving feedback, and for aspiring authors (students, anyone new to writing) their practice was to do a 'praise sandwich.' Notice something good about the work, however small and feeble, but compliment it. Then deliver the bad news about one or more flaws and deficits of the work with suggestions for improvement, and end with another noticed strength of the work. A digestible and useful critique. I think as authors we can do similar good here, especially for newer Lit writers.

I also note that as a pair of thick-skinned veteran writers themselves, Michael said when critiquing each other's work (nice to have a live-in beta reader), they dispensed with the 'praise' part of the sandwich and savagely pointed out the writerly failures in the other's draft. Of course their brutal shorthand dissection was done with love and excellent intentions.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

To Simon and Voboy and others who think “grow a thicker skin” is an actual advice: to me that just reads “I’m not very sensitive and not empathetic enough to understand anyone who is”. I don’t think it’s impossible at all for someone to be so sensitive and for one reason or another in such a fragile state that even the comments of strangers can feel devastating. I myself think that if I’d received some kind of shattering criticism on my first story I would never have published the second.

If you would have given up after negative feedback on story number 1, then thicker skin would have gotten you through. So in that instance how would that NOT have been good advice?

I just want to point out to you not-so-sensitive ones that to say to someone that “you should just ignore the comments” or “you should just grow a thicker skin” is essentially saying “have you considered being something else than you are”, and that is, to put it mildly, not helpful. It can come across as silly to insulting, depending on circumstances.

That's completely untrue. In fact the opposite is true. Having a 'thicker skin' so to speak is the courage to stand up and continue being yourself. If you fold your tent after suffering slings and arrows, what you are doing is changing who you are to appease the haters.

When someone asks a question and someone else gives honest advice, then if the advice hurt the asker's 'feelings' that is not the fault of the one giving the advice. Your feelings are yours. Don't blame others for them. It only disempowers yourself.

There are 7 billion people on this planet and each one has his or her own set of opinions feelings and triggers. They are all unique. So it is impossible for everyone to tiptoe around everyone else's feelings, 7 billion different sets of feelings, it doesn't work. We all just have to look after our own. The moment that we take responsibility for our own feelings we empower ourselves, but if we keep expecting everyone else to say all the right things to satisfy our feelings for us, then we remain disempowered as we wait around for everyone else to do the job.

 

[000zing]

Sam, you've now had it said in so many ways, both short and pretty roundabout, as per the above: on the proviso that you actually wish to enjoy your writing, there's only one person, in truth, that you're writing for. I'll go back to my original comment... you know that it's good when you are happy with it.

This is because the term "good" is subjective to the nth.

Approval seeking on here is about as nutty as paying heed to any disapproval. It's all just opinions. Why don't you join those of us who took one look at this place and decided long ago that, whereas the fora might be fun and vaguely useful, "publishing" here was for the birds?

 

[davion2308]

I don't think any of what I write is particularly good so when I get an actual comment that someone says they really like it, I'll take that as proof.

Also, I do sometimes go back and read a few of my stories. The ones I revisit (and I read the non-sexy parts) are what I think are actually good.

 

[Omenainen]

This response surprises me.

That is kind of why I said it. I can tell you haven’t thought about it that way.

I don't think either Voboy or I expressed insensitivity to others' feelings or in any way excused obnoxious behavior. I make a point of trying to express myself in this forum without getting hostile or obnoxiously personal with people.

I think telling someone that “your reaction is wrong” is being insensitive to others’ feelings.

We all have different levels of sensitivity, and I appreciate that, but I also stand by what I said: if you want to get better at something, and it doesn't matter what it is, then you have to be prepared to deal with criticism, some of it unreasonable and obnoxious. Life IS that way. It doesn't matter what you do. I don't know why it's insensitive to state what I believe to be an incontrovertible fact. I don't understand how a person can deny it.

It might be a fact, but it’s a similar kind of a fact than “there’s people dying in wars as we speak, you’re not as bad off, what are you whining about?”

If you publish stories at Literotica, you're probably going to get criticism. Some of it is nasty. Some of it is stupid. I don't excuse it. But it's there, and it's not going to go away. It's a fact of this place. If the unpleasantness of it vitiates whatever benefit you get from posting stories, and you choose not to post more, I respect that choice. I don't judge that at all. I don't think less of an author that makes that choice. But if you WANT to achieve "success" here, whatever "success" means to you, then it will help you if you learn to weather the criticism. That seems obviously true to me. I don't understand the charge that it's insensitive. What alternative is there?

If you want to answer someone facing that problem in a more considerate way, you could try to not dismiss their experience. You could for example point out how their story was read by x people and favorited by y people, like Voboy’s example above, in other ways try to provide a different perspective. You could also give tips on how to turn off comments, keeping in mind that then the good ones will be blocked too. You could display some empathy, instead of saying “well you’re wrong to feel that way, just get over it, life is a bitch.” See the difference?

I think it's not accurate to say that Voboy and I "don't get it." I do get it. I just disagree. And that's fine. We can get along without agreeing.

I don’t think it’s a disagreement. There are ways to deal with criticism and yours is not the only one, let alone “the one right way”. There are mainstream authors who never read the reviews of their books. It’s not a necessity for a creative person to listen to what anyone else thinks of their work, let alone anonymous wankers on a free website. And yes, the comments can be turned off, but that’s something a new author maybe wouldn’t know to do.

If you would have given up after negative feedback on story number 1, then thicker skin would have gotten you through. So in that instance how would that NOT have been good advice?

Because it is not an advice one can take. If someone is vulnerable enough to be distressed over comments of strangers, having another stranger say “you’re reacting wrong” is not going to help.

Besides, humans don’t work like that. If I give you an advice to become more emphatic, will you? Of course not. People are the way they are. Giving advice of “you should not be like that” is not helpful.

When someone asks a question and someone else gives honest advice, then if the advice hurt the asker's 'feelings' that is not the fault of the one giving the advice. Your feelings are yours. Don't blame others for them. It only disempowers yourself.

That is true, and I’m not saying you should tiptoe around people. But I’m saying that if someone is feeling low, it’s an asshole move to rub it in their face.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Because it is not an advice one can take. If someone is vulnerable enough to be distressed over comments of strangers, having another stranger say “you’re reacting wrong” is not going to help.

Besides, humans don’t work like that. If I give you an advice to become more emphatic, will you? Of course not. People are the way they are. Giving advice of “you should not be like that” is not helpful.

So you would rather me give bad advice and spare your feelings? That way you can remain wallowing in the comfort of your falsehood where you remain powerless in your situation that was caused by others. Fine. Stop writing then. It's 100% sure fire to never draw a troll comment. Is that better?

That is true, and I’m not saying you should tiptoe around people. But I’m saying that if someone is feeling low, it’s an asshole move to rub it in their face.

Okay, that one is just plain bull. You accuse me of putdowns when I'm giving advice, yet you want to equate me to an asshole just the same. Look in the mirror.

 

[Omenainen]

Okay, that one is just plain bull. You accuse me of putdowns when I'm giving advice, yet you want to equate me to an asshole just the same. Look in the mirror.

I never said I wasn’t an asshole I’ve been told I’m too blunt to be leaving unsolicited comments on other people’s stories. I hope I haven’t put anyone off writing, though.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think telling someone that “your reaction is wrong” is being insensitive to others’ feelings.

I wanted to be careful how I responded to you, because I know I have a tendency sometimes to overstate things, and then to have to backtrack. So, I scanned all my contributions to this thread. I never said "your reaction is wrong," nor did I ever say anything that fairly can be construed this way. I think this is a misunderstanding of what I said.

I do not believe, and have never said, that there's a "right" way for an author here to respond to criticism. Some may find that the "cost" of getting obnoxious criticism (and there's plenty of completely obnoxious and unreasonable criticism here, I grant that) is too great to want to continue. I respect that. I don't think less of someone who feels that way. That's a personal choice. This is a free site where you are not being paid money, and only you as an author can decide whether the benefit outweighs the cost.

But it is not un-empathetic of me to say, as well, what I believe about achieving things in life in general: you will become better at your craft if you learn to deal with criticism. I don't think that's debatable. I think any coach or teacher of any craft or skill would say the same thing.

With respect to Holliday1960, with whom I have had a pleasant, cordial, and mutually appreciative online relationship almost from the time I started writing stories here 5 1/2 years ago, my attitude is one of empathy, in the sense that I'm sorry that the negativism weighs down the benefit of contributing. But there's a sense of regret, too, in that I'd like to see more of her stories. It's too bad she doesn't want to post them here. But it's her choice and I respect it.

But I'm not just writing to Holliday1960, or to any one person. These threads pose questions that are of interest to many authors, including new authors who are trying to get their bearings. And I don't believe I'm being wrong or un-empathetic by sending out the message: It's your choice if you want to participate here, and nobody can judge that choice, but it does help, if you can manage it, to develop a thick skin as a writer. To me, that's a truism. I stand by it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I never said I wasn’t an asshole I’ve been told I’m too blunt to be leaving unsolicited comments on other people’s stories. I hope I haven’t put anyone off writing, though.

Oh I get it. Only YOU are allowed to give blunt criticism. Anyone else is an asshole. Shall I wipe your ass for you every time that you crap since you're so privileged?

Don't take that the wrong way.

 

[Voboy]

Because it is not an advice one can take. If someone is vulnerable enough to be distressed over comments of strangers, having another stranger say “you’re reacting wrong” is not going to help.

You're projecting. Because that's precisely the way it was told to me once, in another lifetime, and guess what? It was helpful.

We all benefit from different approaches. Some people cannot take adversity without wilting. If so, it's their responsibility to recognize that and turn the comments off. Fortunately for them, Lit allows that. Real life doesn't, though, and that's their cross to bear.

 

[Pureotica]

I have a creative writing background, and a degree that serves me poorly in my unrelated job.

I understand the techniques of good writing, and have a sense for whether the prose is working. Story craft isn't as intuitive to me. Getting a solid structure onto the page never happens in one draft.

As to the important question of "are the naughty parts hot?" I know I'll probably never please everyone. I just try to make sure I don't include anything that's anatomically impossible or medically unwise. Morally corrosive I can live with.

 

[Comshaw]

I know that there are some among us who have great faith in views and scores and readers’ comments. I am most certainly not one of them. Although there are a small handful of readers whose comments I value. But when I say a small handful, I mean a very small handful.

When I write something, it first has to satisfy me. And then I usually send copies out to four or five members of the dozen or so people who make up my brutally honest ‘review panel’. Mostly, these people are successful writers in their own right. They know their stuff. And they are more than happy to argue about the choice of a word or the position of a comma. If I get a pass mark from these boys and girls, I know that I am probably onto something.

When do you know if what you have written is any good?

First off let me say I'm not immune to the effects of votes, views and favorites. Most times I try to keep my ego in check, but getting those strokes does feel good. And I'll add I try for those, try to write stories the readers will like and vote high on, and give me ego stroking comments. That's one definition of a "good" story. How do I tell if the readers are going to like it, think it's a good story? I don't. I've yet to find that indicator before I post a story of how good the readers will think it is. To be honest I probably never will either.

To me there is another more personal definition of good: whether when I reread the story I think it's good. Way back the first story I ever wrote was for a Creative Writing class I took. I entered that story in a writing contest sponsored by the college. It won first place. I was shocked. Over the years I've reread it and have been astounded at how it ever won. I love the story line, but the way I wrote it feels (to me) flat and unengaging.

Out of those two definitions I think the second is the one that I would default to. Others may think my story is good, or even great, but if I don't, all the accolades sent my way, all the feel good strokes don't make me think it's what I consider "good".


Comshaw

 

[jehoram]

My own two cents:

There are two stages in which I feel that a story is good. The first stage is when it turns me on when I'm re-reading it... if it works, in other words. The second stage is when I find that there's nothing left for me to add or subtract... if it's finished, in other words. That's when I hand it over to my editor.

That isn't to say that it will stay in that form. She makes suggestions, and I weigh them to see if they can be incorporated into the story. But in the re-write, I go through the same two-stage process.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Scores are good, comments are better. Going back to reread a year later and still liking it is best.

 

[Duleigh]

When do you know if what you have written is any good?

When I fall in love with my characters.

When that happens, I do everything I can to make sure they look as real to you as they are to me because I want you to love them too.

 

[Emilymcplugger]

When I fall in love with my characters.

When that happens, I do everything I can to make sure they look as real to you as they are to me because I want you to love them too.

Love this. It’s very true and was the total motivation for my first (and so far) only story.

 

[Imstillfun]

My own two cents:

There are two stages in which I feel that a story is good. The first stage is when it turns me on when I'm re-reading it... if it works, in other words. The second stage is when I find that there's nothing left for me to add or subtract... if it's finished, in other words. That's when I hand it over to my editor.

That isn't to say that it will stay in that form. She makes suggestions, and I weigh them to see if they can be incorporated into the story. But in the re-write, I go through the same two-stage process.

Totally agree. If when I reread it, it turns me on, I’m happy. When i Feel I have helped people reach the, um,…, happy ending they’re looking for, I’m done.

I do admit I’m a favorites and followers whore and check them constantly. I also like stats and check views to followers, and views to favorites. If I get a lot of comments, both good and bad, I’m happy.

I write mostly slut wife stories in LW. There’s a contingent that hates those stories. If I’ve really upset them, that means my story made them feel something. That’s success.

 

[JuanSeiszFitzHall]

When do I know if something I’ve written is good?

Never.

I can, at best, be satisfied that a story does what I thought it should do. If I’m satisfied, I submit it for publication.

If the story is then received well by some readers, I consider the writing and posting to have been worthwhile. But I don’t take that reception to mean that the story would be seen as good, by a very large audience.