When is "incest" NOT incest?

[MediocreAuthor]

No it's not! Having thoughts about murdering you doesn't make me a murderer.

According to the Bible, it does.

 

[ElectricBlue]

No, you answered it fine. I generally agree, which is why I chose not to publish either story in IT. Because while they both touch on the theme, neither are what most would consider a "true" incest story.

Laurel will usually move Incest themed stories into the one category, but if you give her a good reason why you don't want that, she'll also leave it in the category you nominated. She'll put an editorial note at the top, advising "This story contains incest themes".

I've got a long transgender story with a sibcest sub-theme, where that happened. I felt that the trans theme would spook the incest purists and they'd pummel the story down, but since it was the primary theme of the story, I didn't want that. Laurel agreed, and it's done nicely in the category of choice.

 

[Djmac1031]

Laurel will usually move Incest themed stories into the one category, but if you give her a good reason why you don't want that, she'll also leave it in the category you nominated. She'll put an editorial note at the top, advising "This story contains incest themes".

I've got a long transgender story with a sibcest sub-theme, where that happened. I felt that the trans theme would spook the incest purists and they'd pummel the story down, but since it was the primary theme of the story, I didn't want that. Laurel agreed, and it's done nicely in the category of choice.

Both "incest" scenes in my story are VERY short. The second one is barely a scene, more of a quick synopsis.

And again it's made VERY clear in story it's not "real" incest.

Incest is by no means the main thrust of the story. It's a very small part of the equation, and I had other sex scenes more important and more integral to the story that I spend much more time with.

It's very much a mixed bag, hence my desire to post in EC because it's the most generic catagory.

If Laurel does put a Disclaimer at the top of mine, I won't object. Although I don't think it's necessary.

Anyone who finds incest themes "icky" or offensive is welcome to skip it, of course. I won't hold that against them.

But I'd like to at least encourage folks to give it a chance, understand the premise and see the story as a whole, not just those tiny parts.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Oh I never claimed it's a completely unique idea.

There's also a movie that explores this concept, Pleasantville.

My story name is actually a play on that: Pornville, of course.

I've ripped off - excuse me, paid homage to Serling myself - in a story. It was the one about a convict on a distant planet who is given a female android (she's a robot in the original) for companionship. I was quite open about my source, although I added a lot of details and made it into a sort of comedy rather than a tragedy. All of the original episodes are available on Freevee (with ads). One can learn a lot from Serling about to structure a short story. I did add banter between the two that he probably wouldn't have done.

Finally he said, "If you must now, my name is Corey." [It's his first name, not his last one as in the original.]

"Okay Corey, so what do you think, I mean of me? Or is your type a big blonde?"

"I don't think I actually have a type." She couldn't possibly be fishing for a compliment? "So what version are you, the 'girl next door' model?"

Alicia laughed, "No, but that's pretty funny anyway."

 

[Djmac1031]

I've ripped off - excuse me, paid homage to Serling myself - in a story.

Being honest, I was unaware of the Twilight Zone episode.

And really only vaguely aware of the general premise of Pleasantville.

Again, I make no claim that I felt my concept uniquely original. It's been done in various forms in various media countless times.

 

[Mr_Twister_242]

That's irrelevant for purposes of erotica. The key in erotica is what makes it erotic. In this case it's the relation between the two people. That's what makes it erotic for the reader. If Dad is getting turned on by his naked daughter, then the story is incest. That's where the erotic interest lies.

That frankly doesn't make much sense. Incest means sexual activity between close relatives. Using the word in an erotic story doesn't suddenly change it's meaning. A dad thinking/fantasizing about his naked daughter may still be considered taboo in most cultures/religions, but it's not incest.

 

[Djmac1031]

That frankly doesn't make much sense. Incest means sexual activity between close relatives. Using the word in an erotic story doesn't suddenly change it's meaning. A dad thinking/fantasizing about his naked daughter may still be considered taboo in most cultures/religions, but it's not incest.

I get your point. But just for clarification, my original post was about what makes an incest STORY an INCEST story. Not about what is or is not incest in the real world.

The real world thing is an entirely different discussion/argument.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Being honest, I was unaware of the Twilight Zone episode.

And really only vaguely aware of the general premise of Pleasantville.

Again, I make no claim that I felt my concept uniquely original. It's been done in various forms in various media countless times.

I was too young to remember the series when it was new, but the episodes can be watched from the IMDb.com list.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052520/episodes/?season=1&ref_=ttep_ep_sn_pv

I saw some of these on a Twilight Zone marathon a few years ago. Highly recommended; Serling was a superb writer and he knew how to keep things compact. (The Outer Limits was also a good show, and truly creepy at times.) These are two of the episodes I've referred to.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734656/?ref_=ttep_ep7

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734553/?ref_=ttep_ep36

 

[Djmac1031]

I was too young to remember the series when it was new, but the episodes can be watched from the IMDb.com list.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0052520/episodes/?season=1&ref_=ttep_ep_sn_pv

I saw some of these on a Twilight Zone marathon a few years ago. Highly recommended; Serling was a superb writer and he knew how to keep things compact. (The Outer Limits was also a good show, and truly creepy at times.) These are two of the episodes I've referred to.

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734656/?ref_=ttep_ep7

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0734553/?ref_=ttep_ep36

I started watching the original Twilight Zone series awhile back; meant to get through all of it but never did.

This reminds me I should get back to it for sure.

 

[Mr_Twister_242]

I get your point. But just for clarification, my original post was about what makes an incest STORY an INCEST story. Not about what is or is not incest in the real world.

The real world thing is an entirely different discussion/argument.

I'd say if the main theme is Incest, then it's an Incest story. If Incest is not the main theme, then it's not an Incest story, but may still need a content warning.

 

[SimonDoom]

That frankly doesn't make much sense. Incest means sexual activity between close relatives. Using the word in an erotic story doesn't suddenly change it's meaning. A dad thinking/fantasizing about his naked daughter may still be considered taboo in most cultures/religions, but it's not incest.

You're completely missing the point.

The OP's original question is, basically, should I post this story in the incest category? That's the practical importance of the question, and of this thread. It is of no importance whatsoever whether the conduct in his story meets the dictionary definition of "incest," or the legal/criminal definition of "incest." The question is, where to post it?

So the ONLY thing that matters is what readers think and respond to. If the story derives its erotic appeal from the relationship between two related people, then it falls under incest. That's where the appeal lies. That's what turns readers on. It's completely unimportant whether the conduct described in the story meets a legal or dictionary definition of "incest."

 

[Mr_Twister_242]

I'm not missing the point, and I disagree. As a reader I would expect a story in the incest category to contain sexual intercourse between relatives, because that's what incest means. A dad thinking about his naked daughter doesn't fit. A dad fantasizing about penetrating his naked daughter on the other hand, there you could make an argument that it fits, because at least he's thinking about incest.

Either way, the category is not Incest but Incest/Taboo. That's a lot broader so I think the first story could fit here, but as I explained in my previous post : it depends on whether OP considers it the main theme of his story.

 

[gunhilltrain]

You're completely missing the point.

The OP's original question is, basically, should I post this story in the incest category? That's the practical importance of the question, and of this thread. It is of no importance whatsoever whether the conduct in his story meets the dictionary definition of "incest," or the legal/criminal definition of "incest." The question is, where to post it?

So the ONLY thing that matters is what readers think and respond to. If the story derives its erotic appeal from the relationship between two related people, then it falls under incest. That's where the appeal lies. That's what turns readers on. It's completely unimportant whether the conduct described in the story meets a legal or dictionary definition of "incest."

Hey, if the readers are not turned on by our stories, that's their problem! Let them go somewhere else for there satisfaction.

Seriously, I had trouble figuring out exactly what category his ideas fit into. His second idea had a kind of "meta" feeling to it. The male character, as most characters in fiction are, is imaginary and yet he is having "visions" of his own imaginary characters he created as a writer. That kind of thing has been done before, with actions two steps removed from reality. It probably could be categorized as incest if he wishes it to put it there.

The father looking at his nudist daughter is certainly fantasizing about having incest with her, but he controls himself. Dj, you have some difficult scenarios as examples there..

 

[Djmac1031]

Dj, you have some difficult scenarios as examples there..

Lol. Yeah, because why make things easy on myself, right?

I'm not looking for some definitive Right or Wrong answer here, not at all.

My first story; I can easily see how some would consider it an incest story despite the fact they never have sex, while others would feel cheated by exactly that: they never have sex.

The second story, the one pending for tomorrow; the two "incest" scenes are actually VERY small pieces of the puzzle, not the main thrust of the story at all.

To me, it's NOT an INCEST story. Just a story that happens to have a little incest in it. And not even "real" incest at that.

Still, again, for some, even the mention of incest in any form, no matter how little or what weird twist might accompany it, is an automatic turn-off. And I get and accept that.

Which, bottom line, means I just have to do my best to label and tag as best I can, then let the chips and ratings fall as they may.

 

[ElectricBlue]

So the ONLY thing that matters is what readers think and respond to. If the story derives its erotic appeal from the relationship between two related people, then it falls under incest. That's where the appeal lies. That's what turns readers on. It's completely unimportant whether the conduct described in the story meets a legal or dictionary definition of "incest."

I reckon the main problem going on here, and the crux of the OP's dilemma, is that the category denizens have, over time, narrowed "their" definitions of what an incest story "should" be, down to a more restrictive set of "their rules" - which to a large extent has removed the original, broader, intent of the category, and puts the kibbosh on those writers (like the OP) who want to explore "taboo" themes rather than "incest" themes per se. It's not dissimilar to LW moving away from the plain English of that Crawford's definition.

The dictionary "taboo" element has mostly become irrelevant, which means writers have to find some other category to drop their story into.

 

[Britva415]

Just 'cause it's not incest doesn't mean it's not incestuous.

 

[Djmac1031]

I reckon the main problem going on here, and the crux of the OP's dilemma, is that the category denizens have, over time, narrowed "their" definitions of what an incest story "should" be, down to a more restrictive set of "their rules" - which to a large extent has removed the original, broader, intent of the category, and puts the kibbosh on those writers (like the OP) who want to explore "taboo" themes rather than "incest" themes per se. It's not dissimilar to LW moving away from the plain English of that Crawford's definition.

The dictionary "taboo" element has mostly become irrelevant, which means writers have to find some other category to drop their story into.

Exactly. The "Taboo" element of "Incest/Taboo" has been completely overshadowed by INCEST.

And there are those that feel that anything less than straight up blood related fucking posted in that catagory is incorrect.

That said: No, I don't believe READERS get to dictate what catagory we WRITERS post in.

I posted my story April Fools Daddy in IT despite the fact that, again, father and daughter do not actually have sex, or sexual contact of any kind.

Because the THEME was still there, and that was the full crux of that story.

Plus, I did play a little trickery on readers, although all the signs were there from the beginning lol.

 

[Djmac1031]

Really didn't create this thread just to plug a new story, I swear.

But since I've been talking about it, here it is, just went live.

https://literotica.com/s/pornville

 

[darkride]

I've just joined... and publishing 2 stories under the Incest/Taboo category. I'm kinda annoyed to have received several negative feedbacks over the incestuous aspect, when they are posted under Incest/Taboo. *shrug*

 

[ElectricBlue]

Exactly. The "Taboo" element of "Incest/Taboo" has been completely overshadowed by INCEST.

And there are those that feel that anything less than straight up blood related fucking posted in that catagory is incorrect.

That said: No, I don't believe READERS get to dictate what catagory we WRITERS post in.

I agree with you on the general principle, but the idiot comments that people report would get tedious, I'd have thought. It's almost as if you're dealing with children, "That's yukky."

Because the THEME was still there, and that was the full crux of that story.

Plus, I did play a little trickery on readers, although all the signs were there from the beginning lol.

I've got five stories with incest themes. Two are in other categories, with an editor's note up the top - those other category readers haven't commented, not once.

Two are brother-sister incest (two chapters of the same story, really) and rightly sit in I&T, and I wove in breast feeding and a baby (the baby well out of the room, although someone asked where she was, which I thought a little dubious), as well as a lesbian relationship - so that one mixed it up a bit, but no negativity. I don't know how it would run today though - the only ppl people reading it would be going through my back catalogue and would be used to some of my recurring motifs by now.

The fifth one was typical EB slow burn with an "Oh my God, she's my daughter" reveal in the last paragraph, which was so undeniably daft that I'm surprised no-one called me out on it. Nobody has, which has me convinced those guys will read anything, with not much discernment.

Non incest taboo though, I reckon it'll run better some place other than I&T, these days.

 

[SimonDoom]

That said: No, I don't believe READERS get to dictate what catagory we WRITERS post in.

Well, they don't get to dictate to you. But on the other hand, what's the point of putting it in a category? The point is connecting with readers. So in making a decision about where to put it, the primary consideration is reader reaction.

IMO any story that is more or less incestuous in nature, including in law incest or step incest or cousin incest, should go into the IT category, because that's where the biggest and most appreciative audience probably awaits. There may be some who don't care for what they think is "pseudo-incest," but as long as you tag and describe the story properly they'll probably avoid your story. The incest crowd doesn't go looking for trouble like some of the LW crowd (in my experience).

 

[Seadog777]

TO ME.....anything involving "step" is not incest.

It might be "taboo", but there is a damn difference between the two.

 

[lovecraft68]

According to the Bible, it does.

According to the bible only 144k out of the billions who have existed here since the beginning of time will see heaven.
Its a cheery book if one buys into mythology.

 

[lovecraft68]

TO ME.....anything involving "step" is not incest.

It might be "taboo", but there is a damn difference between the two.

Step incest is like non alcoholic beer, some of the taste, none of the bite.

 

[lovecraft68]

I've just joined... and publishing 2 stories under the Incest/Taboo category. I'm kinda annoyed to have received several negative feedbacks over the incestuous aspect, when they are posted under Incest/Taboo. *shrug*

That's in many categories. People reading in non con will complain something was rapey, people in incest will complain about incest people in loving wives complain about everything.

My last story was brother sister. In the opening they're toking up together. I had multiple comments that I should not promote drug use.

Let's review. Fucking your sister=cool. Smoking pot=wrong.

Okay.