When is it BSDM, and when is it abuse?

[lark sparrow]

The essay I quoted had footnotes showing the research had been formed from professional studies done by those in the field of psychiatry/psychology.

I didn't intend to get into a pissing match about "this article states this, and this article states that". But, one of your collegues demanded one source. Well, there is one source.

All of this is really a pathetic, and desperate attempt to derail the topic of discussion. When we first started this debate I remarked to Miss T that I was impressed with the intelligence and insight of many of the posters. But now, most seem to have sunk to grade school tactics to divert attention away from the truth.

You have yet to impress me with intelligence or insight, and I don't really care about your opinion. However if you look up you will see I have provided some links for those who truly wish to learn. We take care of our own, are light years ahead of you in education and concern for these issues, and your debate is so remedial you have no idea how lucky you are that many have been kind enough to try to educate you despite your attitude. There are some extremely kind and saintly patient people involved in BDSM. I am not one them lol - goodbye.

http://no.place.like.home.mindspring.com/abbot/resources/abuse.htm

http://www.the-crucible.com/bdsm.htm

 

[DVS]

LOL Dude, your transparent efforts to shift the focus from the topic at hand, to me, are so pathetic it's laughable. Why don't you save yourself a lot of time and give up. Accept the fact I am here to say. So far you've contributed not one thing to the discussion.

Dude, you missed my intent completely. You think I tried to shift the focus to you? I just tried to understand you, and you misunderstood me. You don't have a trusting bone in your body.

I also don't understand what you mean by saying "Accept the fact I am here to s(t)ay." I don't care if you stay. You said you understood the vBulletin software. All I have to do is put you on ignore and you're gone.

It's obvious you haven't a clue. Sorry, dude.

I don't answer every question thrown at me because most aren't relavent to the topic. What I think of boxing has exactly nothing to do with this debate.

Actually, weren't we talking about abuse? Some people feel boxing is an abusive blood sport and should be banned. I think that was why she asked you that question.

If anyone wants my opinion, I never cared for boxing. I think it is a stupid sport that damages your mind. I like the personalities, though. I love Ali, and Frazier. Tyson is an idiot. I do wish Ali's daughter wasn't boxing. I hope she doesn't end up with the same affliction as her father.

 

[bunny bondage]

Exactly.

If you look at reality, most men and women are harmed by, mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, husbands, and wives. Good upstanding church going folks one and all.

To single out BDSM as the poster child for substantial abuse is just ridiculous. The mainstream of society can an doften is much be more abusive.

More abuse has been perpetrated in the name of love and religion that any consentual D/s relationship.

A predator uses the tools at hand.

excellent point, Eb. anyone remember a little thing called the inquisition?

 

[lancemanyon]

Actually, weren't we talking about abuse? Some people feel boxing is an abusive blood sport and should be banned. I think that was why she asked you that question.

If anyone wants my opinion, I never cared for boxing. I think it is a stupid sport that damages your mind. I like the personalities, though. I love Ali, and Frazier. Tyson is an idiot. I do wish Ali's daughter wasn't boxing. I hope she doesn't end up with the same affliction as her father.

I'd agree with the above. But, the title of the thread is "When is it bdsm, and when is it abuse?"

Don't know how I can be much more clear than that.

 

[bunny bondage]

.

I don't answer every question thrown at me because most aren't relavent to the topic. What I think of boxing has exactly nothing to do with this debate.

yes it does. i stated that, while boxing with my ex (he wasn't my ex at the time) he hit my cheek so hard that my eye swelled shut. now, if i just said "my ex hit me so hard my eye swelled shut" that would sound a bit different, wouldn't it? it's all about CONTEXT. so i'm asking you, (if you even bother to actually read what we post) what is it about the context that makes it ok or not ok? is it the consent? the sparring pads? the audience? you are side-stepping my question and falling on your otherwise untouched ass. was it ok for him to hit me then? how about when he slapped my face when i was giving him a blow-job and i would have cried if he hadn't gagged me with his cock? is that ok? no? is it the involvment of sexual activity that makes it "bad"? i certainly didn't get as injured as when we'd box, and i enjoyed it a lot more. clarify yourself.

 

[lancemanyon]

yes it does. i stated that, while boxing with my ex (he wasn't my ex at the time) he hit my cheek so hard that my eye swelled shut. now, if i just said "my ex hit me so hard my eye swelled shut" that would sound a bit different, wouldn't it? it's all about CONTEXT. so i'm asking you, (if you even bother to actually read what we post) what is it about the context that makes it ok or not ok? is it the consent? the sparring pads? the audience? you are side-stepping my question and falling on your otherwise untouched ass. was it ok for him to hit me then? how about when he slapped my face when i was giving him a blow-job and i would have cried if he hadn't gagged me with his cock? is that ok? no? is it the involvment of sexual activity that makes it "bad"? i certainly didn't get as injured as when we'd box, and i enjoyed it a lot more. clarify yourself.

All of the above sounds like an abusive relationship to me. Unhealthy in that it sounds void of nurturing, and abusive because you ended up getting hurt. Obviously the sparring incident walks a fine line.....if that is a sport you both enjoy and participate in, and you are aware of what the possible consequences going in to it, then that is a different story.

Before you all grab your keyboards in panic, let me add this.....I don't consider sex a sport.

 

[MissTaken]

I'd agree with the above. But, the title of the thread is "When is it bdsm, and when is it abuse?"

Don't know how I can be much more clear than that.

And we answered your query some time ago.

BDSM becomes abuse when it happens without consent.

No matter how you twist it, the answer will remain the same. We have graciously also provided you with a lot of information concerning the intricities of consent and yes, some have even posted concerning the risks even with consent.

So a new thread idea seems like a good idea!



the article looks great for a new thread.

Have fun!

 

[lark sparrow]

Figure it out yourself - you choose an article and we have to explain it to you?

This essay attempts an introduction to SM. However, there is a problem in "teaching" SM. SM is an experiential discipline, like music, which you cannot understand without experiencing it yourself; and SM has the extra twist that what you experience is your own erotic self. However, everyone is different and SM, the discipline which takes us into ourselves, is seen differently by different people. Thus, someone else doing an introductory essay about SM might do it all different - everything - and be perfectly right, too. So when you encounter quite different ideas of what SM is, not to worry, it is still all the same.

Also, then, be clear that this essay, like any other writing about SM, offers only words and abstractions about something which can be real only as personal experience, inside you. It may comfort some, or interest others, to read a verbal theory about SM; but a whole library of books and films on SM will not teach you as much as the first time that you yourself put handcuffs onto someone you desire, or that someone who desires you puts them onto you. At that moment you will begin to experience your erotic self, not indirectly, in words and concepts, nor as a fixed given, but directly, and as a willed variable (your will or someone else's). And that is why SM is at once so important, so terrifying and so joyous.

SM leads us on important journeys back into ourselves. They are important because the self we return to has changed and grown. SM is a development of our uniqueness, our reality, our limits, our fantasies. We become different in how we can love and be loved. We sadomasochists learn to do SM without knowing in advance just how it will turn out - no limits! - because we have learned how to trust ourselves and one another.

More here: http://www.soj.org/miesen1.html

 

[NocturnalC]

Hi! I'm new on this board, but this thread caught my interest, and I thought I might ask a question or two, especially because I've never been in a D/s relationship. However, two good friends of mine are, and I'm generally interested in BDSM.

Just thought I'd state that before anyone mistakes me for someone with knowledge.

if that is a sport you both enjoy and participate in, and you are aware of what the possible consequences going in to it, then that is a different story.

Before you all grab your keyboards in panic, let me add this.....I don't consider sex a sport.

Lance, I don't consider sex a sport either. Although it's something I enjoy, I don't do it with just anyone or for just any reason. However, the difference between sports and sex is that the former is competitive. Other than that, they do have a lot in common.

I don't see why the rules you obviously allow for sports don't apply to sex. If it's sex both partners enjoy and participate in, and both are aware of the possible consequences going into it, why is that different, let alone wrong?

-NC (Nocturnal Creature, in case anyone wonders)

 

[bunny bondage]

All of the above sounds like an abusive relationship to me. Unhealthy in that it sounds void of nurturing, and abusive because you ended up getting hurt. Obviously the sparring incident walks a fine line.....if that is a sport you both enjoy and participate in, and you are aware of what the possible consequences going in to it, then that is a different story.

Before you all grab your keyboards in panic, let me add this.....I don't consider sex a sport.

ah, i see, so if we could just get a clear definition of "sport" we'd be all set. is it the money involved? cuz there's always porn. how about the spectators? again, sex with an audience is always fun. perhaps it's the special gear involved? i, among others, could list the inventory of my toybag. or maybe it's the social acceptance? sex is pretty much accepted these days. but to me, it sounds like your definition of "abusive" is if someone gets hurt. better go tell royce gracie that sakuraba was abusing him rather than just kicking his ass all over japan's octogon. or perhaps go tell my coffee table that it abused me when it snuck out in front of me and stubbed my toe. goddamned abusive furniture, i've got to get a healthier decor... however, since in bdsm, i "enjoy and participate in it, and am aware of what the posible consequences are going into it" that does seem to fit your definition of sport...

as for my relationship with my ex, it was healthy, nurturing, and full of love (sometimes he put up with a little more than he had to, in fact). he and i are still best friends, even though we've both moved on with new people, and we still confide in eachother with absolute trust.

 

[lancemanyon]

And we answered your query some time ago.

BDSM becomes abuse when it happens without consent.

And now you aren't the only one who feels as though they are repeating themselves

I stated earlier, several times, that the consent excuse is just that...an excuse. People with an abused past will consent to many things, in the process of reliving the abuse.

You want analogies? I ask again....if a depressed person asks you to kill him/her, would you do it?

Just because a person asks for sexual humiliation/abuse doesn't mean it's a good idea.

 

[lancemanyon]

....as for my relationship with my ex, it was healthy, nurturing, and full of love (sometimes he put up with a little more than he had to, in fact). he and i are still best friends, even though we've both moved on with new people, and we still confide in eachother with absolute trust.

From an earlier post yes it does. i stated that, while boxing with my ex (he wasn't my ex at the time) he hit my cheek so hard that my eye swelled shut. now, if i just said "my ex hit me so hard my eye swelled shut" that would sound a bit different, wouldn't it? it's all about CONTEXT. so i'm asking you, (if you even bother to actually read what we post) what is it about the context that makes it ok or not ok? is it the consent? the sparring pads? the audience? you are side-stepping my question and falling on your otherwise untouched ass. was it ok for him to hit me then? how about when he slapped my face when i was giving him a blow-job and i would have cried if he hadn't gagged me with his cock? is that ok? no? is it the involvment of sexual activity that makes it "bad"? i certainly didn't get as injured as when we'd box, and i enjoyed it a lot more. clarify yourself.

Kiddo, I don't want to further your pain. But, you really need to connect with the real world. The relationship you describe above doesn't sound all that healthy, nurturing, and full of love to me.

 

[tyingemu]

uh uh, not abuse, feels to good to be abuse. with Him i feel cherished, loved and wanted not abused

 

[lark sparrow]

http://www.the-crucible.com/bdsm.htm
http://www.soj.org/miesen1.html

 

[MissTaken]

And now you aren't the only one who feels as though they are repeating themselves

I stated earlier, several times, that the consent excuse is just that...an excuse. People with an abused past will consent to many things, in the process of reliving the abuse.

You want analogies? I ask again....if a depressed person asks you to kill him/her, would you do it?

Just because a person asks for sexual humiliation/abuse doesn't mean it's a good idea.

I believe I answered your question.

I also believe that this is old ground...either you want to listen and learn or you want to beat the topic into the ground in the hopes that someone will support your POV.

I dunno *shrugs*

Now, as to humiliation and abuse, there are some who would say a male who desires anal sex has been abused, is sick, is unnatural etc.

How can you respond to that?

How can you explain your kink?

You can't to someone who doesn't have the same desire.

You can only try, but only those of us who also enjoy anal sex are likely to nod our heads and say, "Good point."

Now, I am wondering if you are arguing this point just to argue a point? IF that is the case, please, start another thread and another debate. This one has gotten stale.

I accept that your POV is different from mine and is not going to change.

I ask only that you accept the same from me and treat me and others on this forum with continued respect.

And yes, I would ask that others on the forum treat you with respect as well.


I dunno how else to explain this, so am done with this thread.

Thanks again, though for the opportunity to think furher on myself. I am still a submissive who is safe, healthy and well adjusted, though!

 

[psiberzerker]

Speaking only for my self, sex isn't a sport, that was just an analogy. It was intended to illustrate that there are activities people engage in of their own free will which have the potential for bodilly harm. At this point, we're not even talking about Ds, because it doesn't involve the "Full contact" (Another metaphore, stay with me) of Sm.
It's not even as risky as all that, properly done, but in order for that to be the case, you have to take certain precautions. Plane Jane vanilla sex has precautions of it's own against pregnancy, STDs, and so forth, it's the same with Sm, only more so. I've had freinds throw out backs, and sustain concussions doing nothing more kinky than male over female missionary. If that's too kinky, I've got a nice white collar for you.
Fine, I'm sick of repeating myself. Reread your own damned posts, and their responses, there's really not much new to say. When you've got an argument you haven't used yet, PM me. I'd love to hear it, if only for it's novelty.
Auf Wedersehen.

 

[bunny bondage]

Kiddo, I don't want to further your pain. But, you really need to connect with the real world. The relationship you describe above doesn't sound all that healthy, nurturing, and full of love to me.

ah, since YOU were the one in the relationship for five years, not me, sounds like you would of course know better. oh wait, that's bass ackwards. thanks anyway, daddy.

*throws up hands in exasperation* that does it. this guy won't tell me where he lives, so i can't go kick the shit out of him, and online, there's really nothing i can do to make him listen. i give up. if anyone needs me, i'll be living my unhealthy abusive lifestyle that gives me personal fufillment and satisfaction. never mind my expressions of love, i'm just a misguided "kiddo". bye everyone, catch you in a thread that is actually worth my attention. *clicks ignore*

ah, but before i go, is anyone else (ok, i know this is juvinielle) saying his name as "lancemoron"? or is that just me?

 

[lancemanyon]

*throws up hands in exasperation* that does it. this guy won't tell me where he lives, so i can't go kick the shit out of him, and online, there's really nothing i can do to make him listen. i give up. if anyone needs me, i'll be living my unhealthy abusive lifestyle that gives me personal fufillment and satisfaction. never mind my expressions of love, i'm just a misguided "kiddo". bye everyone, catch you in a thread that is actually worth my attention. *clicks ignore*

ah, but before i go, is anyone else (ok, i know this is juvinielle) saying his name as "lancemoron"? or is that just me?

Once again, if all else fails resort to personal insults. I'll forgive you though, since it is obvious you have no idea what a healthy relationship is. I'll pray for you tonight, too.

 

[lancemanyon]

I also believe that this is old ground...either you want to listen and learn or you want to beat the topic into the ground in the hopes that someone will support your POV.

I think there is plenty of new ground here to explore, but many of you choose to ignore it. So far no one has answered my request to respond to the quotes above about the bdsm lifestyle killing love in a relationship.

And now, I see you have resorted to desperate tactics too.

Now, as to humiliation and abuse, there are some who would say a male who desires anal sex has been abused, is sick, is unnatural etc.

How can you respond to that?

How can you explain your kink?

My desire for anal sex is a fantasy, but one based on reality. The human anus is a body part full of nerve endings. So, stimulation in the area produces pleasurable feelings. But, those feelings don't involve pain, at least not for me.

So sad, I really expected better from you.


It appears even the moderator of this forum cannot stay on topic, but instead resort to cheap shots when it is obvious their position is indefensible.

 

[DVS]

And now you aren't the only one who feels as though they are repeating themselves

I stated earlier, several times, that the consent excuse is just that...an excuse. People with an abused past will consent to many things, in the process of reliving the abuse.

lance, what if there is no past of abuse? What if someone wishes to be a submissive with no past of abuse at all? How do you explain that? Where is the excuse? Watching too much boxing, perhaps?

You want analogies? I ask again....if a depressed person asks you to kill him/her, would you do it?

Why? Are you depressed, lance?

 

[lark sparrow]

More BDSM 101

Sexual Activities > BDSM/Fetish Sex
By Gloria G. Brame, PhD, MPH

One of the most misunderstood areas of human sexuality is paraphilia, and specifically the realm of BDSM/fetish sex. Although the fantasies and activities that fall under the BDSM umbrella are frequent fodder for media scandals and sensational movies, frank dialogue about why people enjoy these variations is hard to find. Instead, many people feel guilty and ashamed that they have abnormal sexual desires, and worry that their fantasies imply that they have serious psychological problems.

While not as organized yet as the Gay & Lesbian movements, the BDSM/fetish communities have become an active political and social force in recent years. Thousands of websites currently host BDSM/fetish content, and hundreds of support groups and educational organizations have sprung up to accommodate the burgeoning communities of kinky folk. From a seemingly small, secretive subculture, the BDSM/fetish world has emerged on the Internet as a thriving open culture. Off-line, however, not that much has changed in the public's negative perception of kinky sex and the people who have it. This section of sexualhealth.com aims both to educate readers seeking to understand more about BDSM/fetish sex, and to offer sympathetic, non-judgmental advice to all who have questions and concerns about its safe practice.

As a clinical sexologist and author who has interviewed and counseled thousands of people over the years, and as a BDSMer myself, my perspective on sexuality and what is "normal" can be neatly summed up as follows: normal sex is whatever consenting adults find pleasurable. If you are of legal age; if you understand exactly what you're getting into sexually and feel good about it; if you can find another charming adult who shares your interests; and if you practice safe sex and take all other reasonable precautions to prevent STDs and unwanted pregnancies, then you aren't just normal, you're blessed.

Of course, this doesn't mean that the same things are normal for everyone. Peoples' sexual imaginations and impulses are incredibly diverse. Just as you wouldn't expect the whole world to agree on which color is prettiest or which flavor of ice cream tastes best, different people need and want different kinds of experiences in bed. Some of these experiences may not turn you on; some of them may strike you as downright weird; but all of them are perfectly acceptable, as long as the people who are actually engaged in it feel happy with their choice.

So what is BDSM? A short list of the types of fetishes and interests which fall under this heading includes: bondage, spanking, cross-dressing, transgenderism, role-playing, corporal punishment, sadomasochism, foot and shoe fetishism, golden showers, enemas, age play, infantilism, rubber fetishes, master/slave relationships, sexual dominance & submission, and dozens more kinks and fetishes that involve one person being in control and the other person surrendering control.

Most important to know is that when I talk about BDSM/fetish sex, I mean kinky intimacy between consenting adults. The concept of adult consent is critical to understanding BDSM. On the surface, an outsider may view an adult spanking or more extreme acts, such as a piercing or whipping, with the horror one feels at witnessing an assault. The outsider may equate rough sex with assault, and then assume that it is an act of anger or emotional coldness. It is therefore crucial to understand the underlying dynamic of BDSM lovers.

Here are several points to consider:

--BDSMers are as romantic, loving, and committed to relationships as anyone else. But instead of finding a kiss romantic, they may find wearing someone's collar to be romantic. Or a spanking may excite them more than conventional foreplay, and enhance their love for their partner.

--To a masochist, extreme sensation is perceived as pleasurable. You may compare it to a runner's high: the more intense the activity, the more their endorphins pump, and the more ecstatic they feel.

--A person who takes the submissive role is neither passive nor a victim. He or she has made a conscious decision to pursue BDSM and has probably looked long and hard to find a compatible dominant partner.

--BDSMers make explicit agreements about what they will and will not do together. Many use communication tools to ensure that they never overstep each other's boundaries. Examples of these include "safe words" (a word or phrase the submissive may utter when he or she wants an activity to end); "contracts" (written agreements outlining each partner's needs, desires, and expectations); and "negotiation" (the process of deciding what kind of relationship the partners want, and what level of commitment each will make). See A short lexicon of BDSM terminology for more terms.

--Dominance and abuse are as different as loving intercourse and rape. BDSM involves consenting adults who expect to derive pleasure from their experience.

--BDSMers may be aroused by "regular" sex too, but the BDSM acts give them the higher level of sexual satisfaction that they need to feel emotionally balanced.

--Not all submissives enjoy pain and not all dominant enjoy giving pain. Many BDSMers are only interested in sensual play, psychological domination or fetishes.

--Being into BDSM does not imply any psychological or emotional problems. BDSM is only a problem when an individual feels depressed or anguished about his or her sexuality.

--BDSM/fetishism cannot be cured. They are not diseases, for one. These desires are innate to individual sexual identity and usually persist throughout one's active sexual life. Counseling can only help people to accept their needs and to make healthful, positive choices.

http://www.sexualhealth.com/content/topic.cfm?topicID=137&thetopic=Sexual Activities

 

[MissTaken]

I think there is plenty of new ground here to explore, but many of you choose to ignore it. So far no one has answered my request to respond to the quotes above about the bdsm lifestyle killing love in a relationship.

And now, I see you have resorted to desperate tactics too.



My desire for anal sex is a fantasy, but one based on reality. The human anus is a body part full of nerve endings. So, stimulation in the area produces pleasurable feelings. But, those feelings don't involve pain, at least not for me.

So sad, I really expected better from you.


It appears even the moderator of this forum cannot stay on topic, but instead resort to cheap shots when it is obvious their position is indefensible.

Nope, Lance.
Not a cheap shot and not desperate tactics.

I asked a real question and you answered. Thank you.

Oddly enough, you answered my question with nearly the same response I answered some of your queries.

The activities I chose to engage in are not painful, ""at least not for me."

 

[cremebrulee]

My desire for anal sex is a fantasy, but one based on reality. The human anus is a body part full of nerve endings. So, stimulation in the area produces pleasurable feelings. But, those feelings don't involve pain, at least not for me.

Lance...my desire to discipline or be disciplined are bringing something to my attention. Is it possible that since you don't feel pain in your ass when you get intruded there (which some consider sodomy and a sick dangerous practice) that there may be a difference in levels/degrees of pain one experiences and HOW they experience them? Stay with me, please.

Say you get it in the butt and like it. OK for you, but if I get it in the arse I scream with pain and it reminds me of when I had a enema when I was very young and extremely ill. You equate it with pleasure, I with horrible memories. So, you like it, I don't. I don't think it's a good thing, you do. You are not sick or bad in my eyes, nor do I think you are doing this because you were abused or that it will lead to deeper more painful experiences for you (no pun intended). If, however, I were to submit to such pain even though it caused me great anxiety, I would be indeed submitting myself to a form of abuse. The consent then, would be the only missing link.
Is that what you mean with this thread? Maybe I have missed the boat entrely and would be glad to apologize if that were the case. The last few posts/pages have seemed to derail from your original "WHEN IS IT ABUSE..." so I am getting a bit confusled (said Pooh) and don't want to click ignore yet.

Can you please tell me the resolution, if any, you wish to come to in this thread?

AND do you believe or can you admit that there is the posibility that some BDSM relationships can be good and healthy for both parties involved?

Thanks for sparking me, LOL

~Creme

 

[Pure]

Hi Lance M.,

As I recall, you had two original theses:
1.People practicing consensual, legal BDSM tend to have abusive pasts/childhoods, and
2."Sadists" and "Masochists" (practicing consensual, legal BDSM) are abusers and abused, respectively.

I've read or skimmed the recent postings, back and forth, and have yet to see any evidence from you supporting either.

I have looked at the essay you posted by Ms.Terence Sellars,

In another essay of hers, "Who becomes a sadomasochist" she concludes:
http://www.sternangel.com/whobecomes.html


So we ask again: Who becomes a Sado-Masochist? Anyone whose parents argued? Anyone spanked, whipped, or slapped? Anyone who looked at a fictional scene of murder? Anyone chastised for childish games of 'doctor'? He who loved his furious mother, who stood over him in red high heels ... she who misbehaved so she might lie across her mother's tight-skirted lap? Just about anyone exposed to sights, sounds or thoughts of violence? And therefore, just about anyone?Recollect again what our revered Doctor has said: Sado-Masochism is not a thing congenitally fated; but it is "a reaction to life that arises when hate is permitted to strike its roots early and deep into the heart of a child."And who does not harbor that germ of hatred.

She is clearly aware that all kinds of exposure to violence and hatred, even in stories, may produce the SM leanings, which scarcely supports your thesis of actual abuse.

Her first essay you cite is not really about histories, so much as it is a purported psychoanalysis of sadistic and masochistic urges, linking them to agressive and death instincts. The author herself does not claim to have done the research, but cites a lot of Stekel, whom I doubt you've read on this topic.

Let's look at this author. I give her bio below, from her site. In short, she says she has a BA in forensic pych, a few graduate courses in literature, and has written numerous things, principally, "The Correct Sadist", which she self-published. Given that BA degree, she is clearly not a "psychologist" as she claims, and her places of publication, Penthouse, Screw magazine, etc. generally confirm that. She cites no publications in reputable journals of research in psychology. She now writes for 'sternangel' an online entity run by "Dr. Tumbelty Southpaw"-- perhaps Ms Terence Herself, if "Southpaw" exists at all. Sellars clearly is NOT ready to condemn all SM as sick, but apparently plays both sides of the fence, writing and marketing SM fiction and her alleged 'analyses' from her website and elsewhere.


TERENCE SELLARS
Bio
http://www.terencesellers.com/bio.html
[verbatim from site]

SUMMARY
Author and Psychologist, with Degree in Forensic Psychology
Specialist in Abnormal Psychology, as per Sexuality
Experimental Psychologist/Psychodramatist in the field of Sadomasochism
Editorial Expertise and Experience since 1978

CURRICULUM VITAE
In private practice since 1980.

Author of two works on the psychology of sadomasochism, THE CORRECT SADIST (1983) and DUNGEON EVIDENCE (1997)
Author of stories, essays and novels relating to the subject of sadomasochism
Consultant to film industry and the legal system since 1988. Assignments in feature film, documentaries, and criminal investigations.
Co-Editor of New York literary review, VERBAL ABUSE; whipping mss. into pristine shape, 1990s.
Writer, Editor and Co-creator of the website PenthouseFetish.com, an all-fetish adjunct to Penthouse.com, 2001-2002.

EDUCATION
John Jay College of Criminal Justice (New York City)
Bachelor of Arts, Forensic Psychology, Summa Cum Laude, 1986
St. John's College (Santa Fe, New Mexico)
Classical Studies, Undergraduate program, 1970-73
Literature, Masters Program, 1988-89

PUBLISHED WORK See the Portrait-Gallery of the Author
THE CORRECT SADIST
Vitriol Press, New York City, 1983
Grove Press, New York City,1985
Temple Press, Brighton U.K. 1989-1992
Blue Moon Books, New York City, 1994As "ANGE DE CRUATE", Merodack Publications,
Paris, 1988
As "DER KORRECTE SADISMUS', Ikoo Buchverlag,
Berlin,1982-2002 (In Print)
As "LA SADICA PERFETTA", Shake Publishing,
Milan,1995-2002 (In Print)
DUNGEON EVIDENCE /aka/ THE CORRECT SADIST "II"
Creation/Velvet Publications, London 1997-2000
(Remaindered copies available through this site.)
THE OBSESSION
Vitriol Publications, New York, 1985-2002 (In Print)
Ikoo Buchverlag Edition in German (In Print)The Correct Sadist and Dungeon Evidence are being prepared
for a one-volume, self-published Edition, ambitiously slated for 2003.

For information about ordering any of these publications, go to 'Writings' on this site.

A FEW MORE PUBLISHED WORKS OF INTEREST
Mistress Manslaughter, Masquerade Magazine,New York, 1998

The Voice of Candy, Screw Magazine, New York, 1995

Is There Life After Sadomasochism? High Risk Anthology, New York, 1990

To Achieve Death, Fenris Wolf, Stockholm, 1990

Details from the Life of a Fin-de-Siecle Author,20th Century Fad Magazine, San Francisco, 1989

Fag Rag - Hour of the Fey - The $200, or Shit on Heroin, Bomb Magazine, New York, Issues in 1979,1981,1986

Coprophagi & Urinology, from "The Correct Sadist," Semiotexte, Polysexuality issue, New York 1981

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REPORTING STERNANGEL

A "magazine" in pdf format with articles based on that preferred subject, sadomasochism. Excellent, tasteful fetish photography by Martha Wilkerson. Written and edited under the auspices of Dr. Tumbelty Southpaw, Psy.D - "Being a Document for the Edification and Education of the Sadomasochist Individual who only Appreciates their Fate. Featuring Excerpts from the Best in S&M Fiction, as well as Serving as a Device to Record the Reflexions of that Premier Submissive, Doctor Tumbelty Southpaw; and as Reporting on the Activities and Interests of certain Dominant Individuals of Exceptional Beauty."

Purchase Reporting SternAngel
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So Lance, you've yet to live up to your promise to produce an article in support of 1) and your own supposed authority, if ftsoa we accept her as such, does not agree with you.

As for 2), I differ with some of my esteemed colleagues.
Some of them are of a 'school', unfortunately very dominant, who hold that SSC or simply 'consent' is some kind of mantra, fine PR, or a good luck charm, remedy against evil, or even a philosophy of wholesome life-- instead of simply a way to stay out of jail and hospital. Against them, you are right, that abuse may occur with consent, so 'consent' isn't a total defense' against 'abuse'. Two doctor's recreationally shooting each other up with heroin is consensual, but arguably still abuse (of body).

However, you've never addressed what 'abuse' is, beyond the simplisitic 'hurt', and a number of posters have posted plausible counterexamples to that, e.g., in boxing. It's clear, isn't it, that many hurts aren't abuse, as you will remember when you visit your dentist?

What you havent given is your agenda, your standard of what's health and 'correct' use of the body, including 'proper' sexual activity? Is it based in the Bible? On certain theologians or psychologists? On the secular 'mental health' professionals? Do, for instance 'gay' adult sexual acts fall into your 'unhealthy' category?

It's quite futile to argue with you, if your cards aren't on the table. There are those, as I said several days ago, who say masturbation or condom use constitute abuse, and the only way to discuss with such a person isn't to say "I like it and I'm ok," but 'What are your standards of health and proper use of the body, and where is their support?"

Best,
J.

 

[James G 5]

The human anus is a body part full of nerve endings. So, stimulation in the area produces pleasurable feelings. But, those feelings don't involve pain, at least not for me.

Funny, the same thing could be said about the skin (largest organ, after all), especially the skin of the buttocks
In fact, that IS said by many of the folks I know