Johnny Mayberry
Golden Boy
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Thanks, lark sparrow...excellent info.
When is it BSDM, and when is it abuse?
- Thread starter lancemanyon
- Start date
lark sparrow
Literotica Guru
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No worries. I'm not going to argue with lancemanyon or defend myself but if he wants to start an exchange of third party materials, I can do that for years and years and years. Hmmm, wonders who can come up with the more compelling material. 
Ebonyfire
Ball Stretcher
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lark sparrow said:No worries. I'm not going to argue with lancemanyon or defend myself but if he wants to start an exchange of third party materials, I can do that for years and years and years. Hmmm, wonders who can come up with the more compelling material.
My money is on you ls.
MissTaken
Biker Chick
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lancemanyon said:
That is true.
It happens in all relationships, whether it be the mother's boyfriend who moves in and abuses the child after the father has or in a vanilla relationship or BDSM or ...or....or....
Predator does not equate to Dominant.
Victim does not equate to submissive.
A Dominant can be a predator as a submissive can be a victim.
Yes, the lifestyle to some degree, attracts predators or offenders. Sites such as this and the many links that are available on our links thread, hope to assist novices as well as experienced individuals engage in safe BDSM practices.
As for the cycle of abuse, again, a Dominant will either not get involved with a submissive who is steal dealing with victim's issues or will assist the victim to get treatment as needed.
A predator will prey on the submissive's weaknesses rather than assist the submissive to become a strong and healthy being, once again.
I am repeating myself.
Should I stop doing that?
MissTaken
Biker Chick
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lancemanyon said:
In terms of your question, I almost feel compelled ot make up an abuse story, just to appease you!
I found D/s when I had a boyfriend who was a creative lover.
Soon enough, I discovered different ways that my body found pleasure that had never before occurred to me.
Sorry, it is a boring story, at best.
But it is mine!
psiberzerker
Literotica Guru
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Alright, Lance...
I'll conceede a few things. Yes, sometimes both abusers, and survivours are attracted to Sm. True, sometimes things get out of hand, and often, people get hurt. Now, shut up, and listen.
You have a very narrow minded veiw of what we do here, and so far as I see, nothing to base it on. This is not a debate, it's a lecture where no dissenting opinion is allowed. You accuse us of the same thing, but it doesn't occur to you that you are sorely outnumbered.
You are the outsider here, and your stated goal, of catching wayward people before they get sucked in by us decadents is hopeless. You are one voice among many, no matter how much you post you aren't going to make a dent.
Now, though you do have some points, the vast majority of your position is misinformed, and vastly overstated. All those sometimes above become "always", or "Usually", and that's the slippery slope you fell down. Yes, Some Dom/mes are into this because they are abusive, but most of the ones I've known had lower slef esteem than their "victims". True, Some sub/masochists are survivours of neglect, abuse, (incest, bestiality, necrophilia, whatever) but the vast majority of the ones I've known where just people, unremarcable in features, or past, but jaded by the same old same old. Finally, you got it, people get hurt. Yes, right, it's dangerous. I concider it a contact sport, no more, or less dangerous than football, or hockey. Precautions must be taken to prevent, or minimise this danger, and we must NEVER FORGET IT!.
Finally, I must thank you for dragging in this podium. Though you are misinformed, and opinionated, (Wait, that sounds familiar,) you gave me, and everyone who'se posted here an oportunity to speak out about many of the myrhs we face all the time. If anything, response to your diatribes has strengthened our pposition by solidifying our defense. That's just priceless.
I'll conceede a few things. Yes, sometimes both abusers, and survivours are attracted to Sm. True, sometimes things get out of hand, and often, people get hurt. Now, shut up, and listen.
You have a very narrow minded veiw of what we do here, and so far as I see, nothing to base it on. This is not a debate, it's a lecture where no dissenting opinion is allowed. You accuse us of the same thing, but it doesn't occur to you that you are sorely outnumbered.
You are the outsider here, and your stated goal, of catching wayward people before they get sucked in by us decadents is hopeless. You are one voice among many, no matter how much you post you aren't going to make a dent.
Now, though you do have some points, the vast majority of your position is misinformed, and vastly overstated. All those sometimes above become "always", or "Usually", and that's the slippery slope you fell down. Yes, Some Dom/mes are into this because they are abusive, but most of the ones I've known had lower slef esteem than their "victims". True, Some sub/masochists are survivours of neglect, abuse, (incest, bestiality, necrophilia, whatever) but the vast majority of the ones I've known where just people, unremarcable in features, or past, but jaded by the same old same old. Finally, you got it, people get hurt. Yes, right, it's dangerous. I concider it a contact sport, no more, or less dangerous than football, or hockey. Precautions must be taken to prevent, or minimise this danger, and we must NEVER FORGET IT!.
Finally, I must thank you for dragging in this podium. Though you are misinformed, and opinionated, (Wait, that sounds familiar,) you gave me, and everyone who'se posted here an oportunity to speak out about many of the myrhs we face all the time. If anything, response to your diatribes has strengthened our pposition by solidifying our defense. That's just priceless.
lancemanyon
Really Experienced
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- Mar 3, 2003
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DVS said:
Sorry, not going to do your work for you. If you aren't interested enough to find it for yourself, then butt out. BTW, you didn't answer my question.
lancemanyon
Really Experienced
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- Mar 3, 2003
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Re: Alright, Lance...
Well, I don't look at it like a contest. Apparently you do. My purpose is to present another side to the story, and judging by the feedback I've been getting, that appears to be working. It seems that not everyone agrees they are "myths".
psiberzerker said:
Well, I don't look at it like a contest. Apparently you do. My purpose is to present another side to the story, and judging by the feedback I've been getting, that appears to be working. It seems that not everyone agrees they are "myths".
lancemanyon
Really Experienced
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lark sparrow said:No worries. I'm not going to argue with lancemanyon or defend myself but if he wants to start an exchange of third party materials, I can do that for years and years and years. Hmmm, wonders who can come up with the more compelling material.
Again, I don't see it as a contest. Also, what you posted is not "third party" material.
DVS
A ghost from your dreams
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Now, that was rather rude of you, lance. Abusive, actually. I tried to find it, and didn't. If you know where it is, you could easily find it and quote it for me. If you want to know answers, you need to get along. I thought we were getting along. Was I wrong?lancemanyon said:
Hecate
Lady Hecate will do
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pissed off by now .....
lancemanyon,
what is your point here?
doing it doggy style is "abusive" (whatever it may mean for every individual on this site) because there may "somewhere - somehow" be a danger of a trace of humiliation being involved and even though both parties want it one party should say no because it MIGHT have some negative (=abusive) implication?
Blindfolding someone and playing with little mental images and unexpected sensations such as icy wash cloth or tickling feathers, sparkling champagne and warm chocolate sauce is "abuse" (whatever it may mean for every individual on this site) because there may be some issues involved that are dealing with "abuse" (whatever it may mean for every individual on this site) matters in the past? Good grief - this is what most women's magazines suggest as a little "revival" for "endagered to go stale" relations!
And last but not least ... there are people who have masochist cravings (totally unrelated to any abuse (whatever it may mean for every individual on this site) past) - and in my not so humble opinion there are many more masochists than willing sadists (which seems to be easily confirmed by maso subs seeking desperately after the sadist sadistic enough to fulfill their desires) Now I wonder - is it not better for these people to get their needs met with a responsible second party involved, a caring, loving person to fulfill a need that may otherwise be misused by someone who is after exactly that - a quick lay and egoistical (thus potentially abusive) satisfaction?
People on this board (as well as other realistically inclined forums, clubs, societies and groups online and in the flesh) are going through great lengths to educate themselves about possible dangers and perils, people on this site are discussing their emotional and even physical questions, fears and limitations to do what they do as safe as life in general will ever get.... so to tell US all here we and the ones we love are psychos, disturbed and plain out dangerous is simply not the way to approach a community let alone create a usefull exchange of ideas.
You say we are sick - I say we are not ... now what? - and I have yet to see evidence that abuse is more common in healthy BDSM relations than in any other form.
... out of this thread now as it is imo to no avail but I didn't think it was worth gagging on my frustration of this misjudgement (again) of BDSM relations.
so this above question (apart from me considering it to be insulting in general as it indicates my sexual preferences are a sickness that needs to be "healed") is as relevant to my sexual desires as it is to my choice of career path, vehicle, hobbies or friends in general - namely:not at all!
lancemanyon,
what is your point here?
doing it doggy style is "abusive" (whatever it may mean for every individual on this site) because there may "somewhere - somehow" be a danger of a trace of humiliation being involved and even though both parties want it one party should say no because it MIGHT have some negative (=abusive) implication?
Blindfolding someone and playing with little mental images and unexpected sensations such as icy wash cloth or tickling feathers, sparkling champagne and warm chocolate sauce is "abuse" (whatever it may mean for every individual on this site) because there may be some issues involved that are dealing with "abuse" (whatever it may mean for every individual on this site) matters in the past? Good grief - this is what most women's magazines suggest as a little "revival" for "endagered to go stale" relations!
And last but not least ... there are people who have masochist cravings (totally unrelated to any abuse (whatever it may mean for every individual on this site) past) - and in my not so humble opinion there are many more masochists than willing sadists (which seems to be easily confirmed by maso subs seeking desperately after the sadist sadistic enough to fulfill their desires) Now I wonder - is it not better for these people to get their needs met with a responsible second party involved, a caring, loving person to fulfill a need that may otherwise be misused by someone who is after exactly that - a quick lay and egoistical (thus potentially abusive) satisfaction?
People on this board (as well as other realistically inclined forums, clubs, societies and groups online and in the flesh) are going through great lengths to educate themselves about possible dangers and perils, people on this site are discussing their emotional and even physical questions, fears and limitations to do what they do as safe as life in general will ever get.... so to tell US all here we and the ones we love are psychos, disturbed and plain out dangerous is simply not the way to approach a community let alone create a usefull exchange of ideas.
You say we are sick - I say we are not ... now what? - and I have yet to see evidence that abuse is more common in healthy BDSM relations than in any other form.
... out of this thread now as it is imo to no avail but I didn't think it was worth gagging on my frustration of this misjudgement (again) of BDSM relations.
And to unfortunately finally delude you, lancemanyon: NONE whatsoever, just the plain pleasure of toying with sensation - emotion and the deep deep unique trust I discovered and experienced as I was a well settled, emotionally stable and happy adult. No hidden agendas etc. And I have not taken ANY step to heal from it as there is nothing wrong with me or my past - I have had the most happy childhood, I am most successfull, intelligent and whoops, I happent to even be good looking ...
so this above question (apart from me considering it to be insulting in general as it indicates my sexual preferences are a sickness that needs to be "healed") is as relevant to my sexual desires as it is to my choice of career path, vehicle, hobbies or friends in general - namely:not at all!
lark sparrow
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Take your own advice, lancemanyon.
DVS
A ghost from your dreams
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OK, lance. I found something, but it was more than a couple pages back. I did "my own work" as you put it. I guess we aren't yet friends.lancemanyon said:
Anyway, I didn't see anything from your past. I saw a bit about education, which I'm not impressed with. Not just yours, but education in general. Let me clarify...
Education is only as good as what you do with it. You yourself said you aren't using yours. I also don't see much done with education when the teacher is not open to teach something other than what is in a book. Life is the great educator. You can learn so much more from living life than you can in a book. Some of it contradicts the advanced college curriculum, because it is so outdated.
I know people in psychology who seem sicker than anyone in the BDSM world. It does make one wonder why they were drawn to such a field in the first place other than to investigate their own deviant behaviors.
In this previous post you mentioned looking for the professional pages on BDSM. Actually, I think you should be looking for the individual pages. I think you will find more grass roots ideas there. Just because it isn't backed up by some learned scholar doesn't mean it isn't true or it didn't happen.
So, back to your past, lance. I know you have one. Are you not willing to share it? The military isn't the past I am looking for. School isn't a past. That is preparation for the future.
I want to get down to the basics, lance. Did you have a good childhood? Did you have fun? What sort of sex life did you have in your younger years, or did you struggle?
Come on, lance. You are educated in the field. You know the answers I am looking for.
psiberzerker
Literotica Guru
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Appearences
"Well, I don't look at it like a contest. Apparently you do. My purpose is to present another side to the story, and judging by the feedback I've been getting, that appears to be working. It seems that not everyone agrees they are "myths"."
Apparently, I look at this as a contest, but appearences can be deceiving. Just as you're deluded to our motives as a whole, mine APPEAR to elude you as well.
I do have a competitive nature, but in this case, i'm merely trying to elucidate my opinions. Turn that astigmatic insight back onto yourself, and examine your own motives. Noone is in a better position than you. From where I'm sitting, it looks to me like you're getting a bit competitive yourself. Shouting louder often has a nasty habit of making us close our ears.
That's why I toned back my responses to you a bit, you obviously got more stubborn the more verbally abusive we became which is to be expected. You are obviously not going to be driven away, so I'll try logic, and reason. I can only assume you'll be more receptive to those.
The final note I will leave you with is this, BDSM APPEARS to be abusive, that is it's nature. You've barely scratched the surface here, did deep enough, and you will reach the truth beneath. To me, that is that this is just another way to express yourself to another. Perhapse it's more intense than some, but that's just the way people are. Strong emotions just need to be approached strongly sometimes. Don't be fooled by appearences.
"Well, I don't look at it like a contest. Apparently you do. My purpose is to present another side to the story, and judging by the feedback I've been getting, that appears to be working. It seems that not everyone agrees they are "myths"."
Apparently, I look at this as a contest, but appearences can be deceiving. Just as you're deluded to our motives as a whole, mine APPEAR to elude you as well.
I do have a competitive nature, but in this case, i'm merely trying to elucidate my opinions. Turn that astigmatic insight back onto yourself, and examine your own motives. Noone is in a better position than you. From where I'm sitting, it looks to me like you're getting a bit competitive yourself. Shouting louder often has a nasty habit of making us close our ears.
That's why I toned back my responses to you a bit, you obviously got more stubborn the more verbally abusive we became which is to be expected. You are obviously not going to be driven away, so I'll try logic, and reason. I can only assume you'll be more receptive to those.
The final note I will leave you with is this, BDSM APPEARS to be abusive, that is it's nature. You've barely scratched the surface here, did deep enough, and you will reach the truth beneath. To me, that is that this is just another way to express yourself to another. Perhapse it's more intense than some, but that's just the way people are. Strong emotions just need to be approached strongly sometimes. Don't be fooled by appearences.
lark sparrow
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Well neener, neener, lancemanyon. The article you posted was from a site for professional domination. Are you supporting that?lancemanyon said:
http://www.sternangel.com/directory.html SternAngel has been designed to address our Favourite psychological Anomaly: Sadomasochism, and its Practice. SternAngel has an academic slant; though to educate the masses is a thankless task. We particularly desire to enable an Interested Few to contact Those who have extensive Knowledge and Experience In Practicum. As a Conspiracy of Authors, Artists, Photographers, Dominatrices and other Maestros, We offer SternAngel as a contact point for both the serious Novice, and the experienced Aficionado.
No one is buying your goods here - how's your head? Finding the love and acceptance you crave? You're certainly not getting any smarter. You sought us out, not the other way around.
Now, go be a good Dominant and lead those who consent to follow, or be a good masochist and bang your head against a wall who consents. Sheesh, some of these self-professed vanilla folks can be such heathens!
MissTaken
Biker Chick
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- Jun 30, 2001
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- 20,570
Giving everyone the benefit of the doubt...
My friendly advice to all involved is this:
Lance? IF you are seeking insight into how and why real people practice their kinky sex , you will get far more favorable responses by asking open ended, non threatening questions.
Everyone else? IF you are really fed up with the thread, hit the ignore option. Lance disappears, the thread disappears and you don't have to get dragged into a discussion that you find distasteful.
IF you want to continue to give some thought to the questions and issues and post, by all means, do so.
It just seems that I am not the only one repeating themselves and talking in circles. There are times, when agreeing to disagree is the only option.
As for anyone lurking? Feel free to hop in. The water is certainly warm and the drinks are on me!
And finally, I am still personally very pleased to be part of this community. All have conducted themselves well, far better than I have seen happen at other times on other boards!
*hugs*
My friendly advice to all involved is this:
Lance? IF you are seeking insight into how and why real people practice their kinky sex , you will get far more favorable responses by asking open ended, non threatening questions.
Everyone else? IF you are really fed up with the thread, hit the ignore option. Lance disappears, the thread disappears and you don't have to get dragged into a discussion that you find distasteful.
IF you want to continue to give some thought to the questions and issues and post, by all means, do so.
It just seems that I am not the only one repeating themselves and talking in circles. There are times, when agreeing to disagree is the only option.
As for anyone lurking? Feel free to hop in. The water is certainly warm and the drinks are on me!
And finally, I am still personally very pleased to be part of this community. All have conducted themselves well, far better than I have seen happen at other times on other boards!
*hugs*
cremebrulee
only hard on the outside
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2002
- Posts
- 1,286
starting to get impatient
LANCE!
DO I have your attention? This is sadistic in nature, your trying over and over to deny that there is any good in BDSM relationships at all. That is what is coming across to me, be I right,wrong, competitive or whatever you call it.
Can't you even admit that for some this lifestyle is not abusive?
I guess I'd be considered a switch due to the way I revel about that exhillirating feeling and sudden submissive calm I experienced wit my first spanking, but you make me want to grab you by the collar and SCREAM! What is your point? You asked a question so many have tried to answer you, but it seems that the answers you have gotten ar not good enough so you want to play this out til you get at least one abused soul that is in total agreement with you.
To tell you the truth, I just don't think you're gonna find that here.
*turning RED*
It is not in being tied up or having a crop in my hand that leads me to want to abuse, it is people like you with holier than thou attitudes.
I am tired of biting my tongue.
I have no history of abuse in my childhood, but began into this lifestyle at an early age. I was actively involved until several years ago when there was an asshole in my life that was NOT into the BDSM scene, but ABSUE for the sake of ABUSE who ruined it all for me. How's that for not your studies? Fit me into your little box somewhere? I think not.
I have been without a partner for some time, not due to the abuse I suffered, but for lack of finding anyone interested and willing to CONSENT. I will not go there without the CONSENT.
Thanks for taking the time to read this post, lance.
OH!
PLUS
I asked you one silly little question that was brushed off as insignificant, but I need an answer. About boxing..? Just because they are not having sex is that ok? Thay have consented that hitting each other is ok and gives MANY pleasure. They even get paid to do it.
End of temper tantrum.
~Creme
LANCE!
DO I have your attention? This is sadistic in nature, your trying over and over to deny that there is any good in BDSM relationships at all. That is what is coming across to me, be I right,wrong, competitive or whatever you call it.
Can't you even admit that for some this lifestyle is not abusive?
I guess I'd be considered a switch due to the way I revel about that exhillirating feeling and sudden submissive calm I experienced wit my first spanking, but you make me want to grab you by the collar and SCREAM! What is your point? You asked a question so many have tried to answer you, but it seems that the answers you have gotten ar not good enough so you want to play this out til you get at least one abused soul that is in total agreement with you.
To tell you the truth, I just don't think you're gonna find that here.
*turning RED*
It is not in being tied up or having a crop in my hand that leads me to want to abuse, it is people like you with holier than thou attitudes.
I am tired of biting my tongue.
I have no history of abuse in my childhood, but began into this lifestyle at an early age. I was actively involved until several years ago when there was an asshole in my life that was NOT into the BDSM scene, but ABSUE for the sake of ABUSE who ruined it all for me. How's that for not your studies? Fit me into your little box somewhere? I think not.
I have been without a partner for some time, not due to the abuse I suffered, but for lack of finding anyone interested and willing to CONSENT. I will not go there without the CONSENT.
Thanks for taking the time to read this post, lance.
OH!
PLUS
I asked you one silly little question that was brushed off as insignificant, but I need an answer. About boxing..? Just because they are not having sex is that ok? Thay have consented that hitting each other is ok and gives MANY pleasure. They even get paid to do it.
End of temper tantrum.
~Creme
cremebrulee
only hard on the outside
- Joined
- Dec 23, 2002
- Posts
- 1,286
apology
MissTaken, my apologies for the outburst. You have made perfect sense all along and on both counts in your most recent post, I just had to get my two cents worth in. It was boiling up in my esophogas.
Hugs,
~Creme
MissTaken, my apologies for the outburst. You have made perfect sense all along and on both counts in your most recent post, I just had to get my two cents worth in. It was boiling up in my esophogas.
Hugs,
~Creme
DVS
A ghost from your dreams
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2002
- Posts
- 11,416
Well, I'm 'bout ready to give up. I had seen the responses others had received, and thought I would use another approach. But, lance is the same to anyone on this forum, no matter how you approach him.
I thought he would understand my approach, but if he does, he isn't into giving answers, only asking questions. And, those questions are the same questions, asked in a different way.
Personally, I don't see him as having the education he says he does, but that is beside the point. The point is, he keeps the wall up and shoots out of a little hole in it. He won't listen to reason, and references problems that are so widespread that the culprits could be (and surely some are) church and school officials, moms and dads. Not your average BDSM type.
But, it is interesting to talk to him. I have always been a people watcher and study different personalities. Yes, lance is different.
I may ignore the thread, but it won't be out of spite or disgust. I am very open and like to hear opinions of others. But, I do hate to see others getting upset and frustrated, and that would be the reason I hit ignore.
I thought he would understand my approach, but if he does, he isn't into giving answers, only asking questions. And, those questions are the same questions, asked in a different way.
Personally, I don't see him as having the education he says he does, but that is beside the point. The point is, he keeps the wall up and shoots out of a little hole in it. He won't listen to reason, and references problems that are so widespread that the culprits could be (and surely some are) church and school officials, moms and dads. Not your average BDSM type.
But, it is interesting to talk to him. I have always been a people watcher and study different personalities. Yes, lance is different.
I may ignore the thread, but it won't be out of spite or disgust. I am very open and like to hear opinions of others. But, I do hate to see others getting upset and frustrated, and that would be the reason I hit ignore.
lark sparrow
Literotica Guru
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For those who seriously want to consider...
This is the BDSM vs Abuse statement formulated at LLC III in San Francisco. Over 20 BDSM Organizations participated in it's wording.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BDSM vs. Abuse
The following Principles and Guidelines are intended to help law enforcement
and social services professionals understand the difference between abusive
relationships vs. consensual BDSM. BDSM derives from bondage, discipline and
consensual sadomasochism and is used to refer to a broad and complex group of
behaviors between consenting adults involving the consensual exchange of
power, and the giving and receiving of intense erotic sensation and/or mental
discipline. Historical usage and dictionary definitions include types of
relationships which are not consensual or legitimate.
BDSM includes: "Intimate activities within the scope of informed consent
that is freely given."
Abuse is: "Physical, sexual or emotional acts inflicted on a person without
their informed and freely given consent."
Principles
The SM-Leather-Fetish communities recognize the phrase "Safe, Sane,
Consensual" as the best brief summary of principles guiding BDSM practices:
Safe is being knowledgeable about the techniques and safety concerns involved
in what you are doing, and acting in accordance with that knowledge.
Sane is knowing the difference between fantasy and reality.
Consensual is respecting the limits imposed by each participant at all times.
One of the recognized ways to maintain limits is through a "safeword" which
ensures that each participant can end his/her participation with a word or
gesture.
Guidelines
Informed consent must be judged by balancing the following criteria for each
encounter at the time the acts occurred:
a) Was informed consent expressly denied or withdrawn?
b) Were there factors that negated the informed consent?
c) What is the relationship of the participants?
d) What was the nature of the activity?
e) What was the intent of the accused abuser?
Whether an individualÌs BDSM role is top/dominant or bottom/submissive, they
could be suffering abuse if they answer no to any of the following questions:
1. Are your needs and limits respected?
2. Is your relationship built on honesty, trust, and respect?
3. Are you able to express feelings of guilt or jealousy or unhappiness?
4. Can you function in everyday life?
5. Can you refuse to do illegal activities?
6. Can you insist on safe sex practices?
7. Can you choose to interact freely with others outside of your
relationship?
8. Can you leave the situation without fearing that you will be harmed, or
fearing the other participant(s) will harm themselves?
9. Can you choose to exercise self-determination with money, employment, and
life decisions?
10. Do you feel free to discuss your practices and feelings with anyone you choose?
http://www.the-crucible.com/bdsm.htm
Here is another good link.
http://no.place.like.home.mindspring.com/abbot/resources/abuse.htm
Containing the following articles:
Abuse: A Common Link?
Does abuse cause submission? Or does a submissive nature encourage abuse? An insightful pair of articles written by a dominant, Lord Colm, and his submissive. Jade is no longer with us, but her words live on.
Abuse in BDSM
An excellent article by Zebee Johnstone that talks about abuse rather than listing a bunch of "it's abuse if this and BDSM if that" points. Well done in a casual, chatty tone.
Abuse in the BDSM World
An entire site devoted to abuse in BDSM relationships, some pages of which are linked elsewhere on this page. The site's creator believes abuse is more common in BDSM environments than we care to admit.
Abuse vs. Erotic Power Exchange
From POWERotics, this article talks about how things are supposed to be within BDSM and "real life," and some of the signs that things have gone wrong.
Abuse vs. Healthy BDSM: Knowing the Difference
From the NLA-I Statement on Domestic Violence, a discussion of the differences between BDSM and abuse.
Are You Being Abused?
From Dr. Gloria Brame, a look at domestic violence and abuse as they relate to BDSM.
BDSM Abuse Survivors Mailing List
An electronic mailing list for people involved in or interested in BDSM and who are the victims or survivors of some kind of abuse (not necessarily connected to BDSM experiences or relationships).
BDSM or Abuse
A look at both partners in a BDSM relationship. The first page compares character traits and actions of a dominant partner with an abuser. The second page looks at the difference between a submissive partner and an abused one.
BDSM Relationship vs. Abusive Relationship
The writer acknowledges that there are abusive relationships within the leather community just like there are everywhere else in the world... and that we may be more likely to overlook them or ignore the warning signs. Includes a list of questions for submissive partners to honestly ask themselves.
BDSM vs. Abuse
A list of points differentiating healthy SM interaction and abuse.
The Connection Between Kink and Abuse
Bob King contends that there is a large overlap between the communities of abuse survivors and BDSMers, and thinks biochemical causes may be involved, just as they are in depression and other similar problems. You may not agree with his statements or his conclusions, but this is interesting reading nonetheless.
The Difference Between SM and Abuse
A statement from the Lesbian Sex Mafia, outlining what they believe are the critical points distinguishing abuse from BDSM.
The Differences Between BDSM and Abuse
From CUFSmaine, an excellent point-by-point comparison between BDSM and abuse.
NLA-I's Statement on Domestic Violence
The National Leather Association International is a world-wide BDSM organization. In 1988 they launched the first ever Domestic Violence Project within the leather community. This multi-page statement (individual pages are linked elsewhere) discusses the difference between BDSM and Abuse, and what can be done about the latter.
Preventing Abuse Within BDSM Relationships
From the NLA-I Statement on Domestic Violence: How to identify an abusive relationship, how to avoid them, and how to get help.
Safe Sane and Consensual?
Tips on abusive D/s relationships and how to avoid them. Includes a list of warning signs for potential physical danger.
Signs Your Partner May Be Abusive
Sixteen symptoms that point to an abusive personality or relationship. Well done and well worth reading.
Is SM abusive? Were most SM people abused?
From the soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm FAQ, this page deals with misconceptions about BDSM and leatherfolk stereotypes. It also includes information on domestic violence and abuse from the Leather/Fetish Celebration Committee.
SM versus Abuse Policy Statement
The draft of a public statement on BDSM versus abuse being developed by participants in the Leather Leadership Conferences.
SM vs. Abuse
A look at the difference between BDSM and abuse, from Jay Wiseman's SM 101. Includes a list of warning signs and an explanation of the "cycle of violence."
This is for you too, lance "the world is flat" manyon... but mainly I put it up for people who are truly interested in learning the difference between abuse and BDSM, and wish to make up their own minds and comfort levels.
This is the BDSM vs Abuse statement formulated at LLC III in San Francisco. Over 20 BDSM Organizations participated in it's wording.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BDSM vs. Abuse
The following Principles and Guidelines are intended to help law enforcement
and social services professionals understand the difference between abusive
relationships vs. consensual BDSM. BDSM derives from bondage, discipline and
consensual sadomasochism and is used to refer to a broad and complex group of
behaviors between consenting adults involving the consensual exchange of
power, and the giving and receiving of intense erotic sensation and/or mental
discipline. Historical usage and dictionary definitions include types of
relationships which are not consensual or legitimate.
BDSM includes: "Intimate activities within the scope of informed consent
that is freely given."
Abuse is: "Physical, sexual or emotional acts inflicted on a person without
their informed and freely given consent."
Principles
The SM-Leather-Fetish communities recognize the phrase "Safe, Sane,
Consensual" as the best brief summary of principles guiding BDSM practices:
Safe is being knowledgeable about the techniques and safety concerns involved
in what you are doing, and acting in accordance with that knowledge.
Sane is knowing the difference between fantasy and reality.
Consensual is respecting the limits imposed by each participant at all times.
One of the recognized ways to maintain limits is through a "safeword" which
ensures that each participant can end his/her participation with a word or
gesture.
Guidelines
Informed consent must be judged by balancing the following criteria for each
encounter at the time the acts occurred:
a) Was informed consent expressly denied or withdrawn?
b) Were there factors that negated the informed consent?
c) What is the relationship of the participants?
d) What was the nature of the activity?
e) What was the intent of the accused abuser?
Whether an individualÌs BDSM role is top/dominant or bottom/submissive, they
could be suffering abuse if they answer no to any of the following questions:
1. Are your needs and limits respected?
2. Is your relationship built on honesty, trust, and respect?
3. Are you able to express feelings of guilt or jealousy or unhappiness?
4. Can you function in everyday life?
5. Can you refuse to do illegal activities?
6. Can you insist on safe sex practices?
7. Can you choose to interact freely with others outside of your
relationship?
8. Can you leave the situation without fearing that you will be harmed, or
fearing the other participant(s) will harm themselves?
9. Can you choose to exercise self-determination with money, employment, and
life decisions?
10. Do you feel free to discuss your practices and feelings with anyone you choose?
http://www.the-crucible.com/bdsm.htm
Here is another good link.
http://no.place.like.home.mindspring.com/abbot/resources/abuse.htm
Containing the following articles:
Abuse: A Common Link?
Does abuse cause submission? Or does a submissive nature encourage abuse? An insightful pair of articles written by a dominant, Lord Colm, and his submissive. Jade is no longer with us, but her words live on.
Abuse in BDSM
An excellent article by Zebee Johnstone that talks about abuse rather than listing a bunch of "it's abuse if this and BDSM if that" points. Well done in a casual, chatty tone.
Abuse in the BDSM World
An entire site devoted to abuse in BDSM relationships, some pages of which are linked elsewhere on this page. The site's creator believes abuse is more common in BDSM environments than we care to admit.
Abuse vs. Erotic Power Exchange
From POWERotics, this article talks about how things are supposed to be within BDSM and "real life," and some of the signs that things have gone wrong.
Abuse vs. Healthy BDSM: Knowing the Difference
From the NLA-I Statement on Domestic Violence, a discussion of the differences between BDSM and abuse.
Are You Being Abused?
From Dr. Gloria Brame, a look at domestic violence and abuse as they relate to BDSM.
BDSM Abuse Survivors Mailing List
An electronic mailing list for people involved in or interested in BDSM and who are the victims or survivors of some kind of abuse (not necessarily connected to BDSM experiences or relationships).
BDSM or Abuse
A look at both partners in a BDSM relationship. The first page compares character traits and actions of a dominant partner with an abuser. The second page looks at the difference between a submissive partner and an abused one.
BDSM Relationship vs. Abusive Relationship
The writer acknowledges that there are abusive relationships within the leather community just like there are everywhere else in the world... and that we may be more likely to overlook them or ignore the warning signs. Includes a list of questions for submissive partners to honestly ask themselves.
BDSM vs. Abuse
A list of points differentiating healthy SM interaction and abuse.
The Connection Between Kink and Abuse
Bob King contends that there is a large overlap between the communities of abuse survivors and BDSMers, and thinks biochemical causes may be involved, just as they are in depression and other similar problems. You may not agree with his statements or his conclusions, but this is interesting reading nonetheless.
The Difference Between SM and Abuse
A statement from the Lesbian Sex Mafia, outlining what they believe are the critical points distinguishing abuse from BDSM.
The Differences Between BDSM and Abuse
From CUFSmaine, an excellent point-by-point comparison between BDSM and abuse.
NLA-I's Statement on Domestic Violence
The National Leather Association International is a world-wide BDSM organization. In 1988 they launched the first ever Domestic Violence Project within the leather community. This multi-page statement (individual pages are linked elsewhere) discusses the difference between BDSM and Abuse, and what can be done about the latter.
Preventing Abuse Within BDSM Relationships
From the NLA-I Statement on Domestic Violence: How to identify an abusive relationship, how to avoid them, and how to get help.
Safe Sane and Consensual?
Tips on abusive D/s relationships and how to avoid them. Includes a list of warning signs for potential physical danger.
Signs Your Partner May Be Abusive
Sixteen symptoms that point to an abusive personality or relationship. Well done and well worth reading.
Is SM abusive? Were most SM people abused?
From the soc.subculture.bondage-bdsm FAQ, this page deals with misconceptions about BDSM and leatherfolk stereotypes. It also includes information on domestic violence and abuse from the Leather/Fetish Celebration Committee.
SM versus Abuse Policy Statement
The draft of a public statement on BDSM versus abuse being developed by participants in the Leather Leadership Conferences.
SM vs. Abuse
A look at the difference between BDSM and abuse, from Jay Wiseman's SM 101. Includes a list of warning signs and an explanation of the "cycle of violence."
This is for you too, lance "the world is flat" manyon... but mainly I put it up for people who are truly interested in learning the difference between abuse and BDSM, and wish to make up their own minds and comfort levels.
Last edited:
lancemanyon
Really Experienced
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2003
- Posts
- 122
DVS said:
LOL Dude, your transparent efforts to shift the focus from the topic at hand, to me, are so pathetic it's laughable. Why don't you save yourself a lot of time and give up. Accept the fact I am here to say. So far you've contributed not one thing to the discussion.
I don't answer every question thrown at me because most aren't relavent to the topic. What I think of boxing has exactly nothing to do with this debate.
lancemanyon
Really Experienced
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2003
- Posts
- 122
lark sparrow said:
The essay I quoted had footnotes showing the research had been formed from professional studies done by those in the field of psychiatry/psychology.
I didn't intend to get into a pissing match about "this article states this, and this article states that". But, one of your collegues demanded one source. Well, there is one source.
All of this is really a pathetic, and desperate attempt to derail the topic of discussion. When we first started this debate I remarked to Miss T that I was impressed with the intelligence and insight of many of the posters. But now, most seem to have sunk to grade school tactics to divert attention away from the truth.
MissTaken
Biker Chick
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2001
- Posts
- 20,570
Sure, the question about boxing seems relevant.
Two people beat on one another for pleasure, at least initially. A few get to make a lot of money for hitting other willing opponents.
So, is it abuse or pleasure?
Is BDSM, abuse or pleasure?
Great parellel, creme. I had read the post but with so many, hadn't really hit on it.
What makes it non criminal, and non victimizing to be a boxer.
Consent and rules/limits!
Two people beat on one another for pleasure, at least initially. A few get to make a lot of money for hitting other willing opponents.
So, is it abuse or pleasure?
Is BDSM, abuse or pleasure?
Great parellel, creme. I had read the post but with so many, hadn't really hit on it.
What makes it non criminal, and non victimizing to be a boxer.
Consent and rules/limits!
lancemanyon
Really Experienced
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2003
- Posts
- 122
MissTaken said:Sure, the question about boxing seems relevant.
Two people beat on one another for pleasure, at least initially. A few get to make a lot of money for hitting other willing opponents.
So, is it abuse or pleasure?
Is BDSM, abuse or pleasure?
Great parellel, creme. I had read the post but with so many, hadn't really hit on it.
What makes it non criminal, and non victimizing to be a boxer.
Consent and rules/limits!
You are missing one small element.....bdsm is about sex, and boxing is not.
Whoops, had to modify that statement. At least it isn't for most people.
MissTaken
Biker Chick
- Joined
- Jun 30, 2001
- Posts
- 20,570
lancemanyon said:You are missing one small element.....bdsm is about sex, and boxing is not.
Whoops, had to modify that statement. At least it isn't for most people.
*giggles*
OF course, there is an element of us who may not ever have sex with our Dom or sub?
No, really!
Hmm I guess there is a monkey wrench to kick around...or something like that!
