When needs and values clash

[intothewoods]

This is very encouraging!
I do want to believe that I can have it all. An equal relationship but still submit.

Do you live together? Will you?

Do you think the dynamic between you two is completely hidden from your son?

It is an equal relationship, as much as any other vanilla romantic relationship. But you know what? I think the dirty secret of most relationships is that they aren't always equal, and that's not a negative. I don't mean a relationship where one person is always sacrificing for the other. I mean a healthy relationship where one person happens to be more outspoken, or better at making decisions, or a leader, to use JM's term. In some cases, one partner may lead in some areas and not others. A whole host of dynamics are out there. So I don't think it's realistic to expect perfect equality anyway.

He's only met my son once so far, but the dynamic is hidden from just about everyone. Not hidden exactly, but it's just something that is between us. My PYL is more of the strong, silent type. It's just not his style to order me around in public. He may put his hand on my back and sort of subtly take the lead, but again, not anything that would lead anyone to think of us as different.

Interesting, but the thought of a follower being lesser than a leader never crossed my mind. I don't have an issue with D/s as a concept. I have an issue with being a woman submitting to a man and how that reflects the gender power order of our world.

I certainly don't think that it is better to dominate than to submit, but I think that men generally have way to much power.

I'm not sure I understand what this means exactly. Do you feel like, gee, women are always submitting to men, and now I'm just one more! Or what, exactly?

I haven't found a lot of people on these boards who were sympathetic to this point of view, but I think it isn't such a simple thing to resolve in a person's mind. I know it wasn't for me.

In very general terms, women should have the choice to do what they want with their lives, but it is complicated. I do feel like it's important for me to control my own destiny, and I couldn't just turn over all choices wholesale to someone. No, I"m not trying to take any choice away from anyone else. Freedom is a beautiful thing. But choices have meaning, and impact. I think you need to decide what submission means to you.

 

[intothewoods]

I understand that, but (IMO) part of processing the clash between feminism and D/s, is understanding that your decision to submit to a man:

A) pretty much has nothing to do with the fact that male CEOs make more than female CEOs (or pick whatever power issue fits better)
B) doesn't send negative messages to children
C) isn't in conflict with feminist ideals

A person's decision certainly doesn't send negative messages to children. And submission in and of itself doesn't either. But what is submission, and what is in front of the kids? I'm not saying anyone needs to cower in fear and be shameful. That's not healthy. But I also don't embrace the model in which we let it all hang out and become our children's best friends. To each his own. I'm not of the mindset that there is one way to parent. This is just where I came out at the end of my thought process on this topic.

 

[CutieMouse]

A person's decision certainly doesn't send negative messages to children. And submission in and of itself doesn't either. But what is submission, and what is in front of the kids? I'm not saying anyone needs to cower in fear and be shameful. That's not healthy. But I also don't embrace the model in which we let it all hang out and become our children's best friends. To each his own. I'm not of the mindset that there is one way to parent. This is just where I came out at the end of my thought process on this topic.

I'm having a hard time thinking of a "submissive situation" that might occur in front of my children, that couldn't be explained away as good manners - because I understand the boundaries, and wouldn't get involved with anyone who didn't.

(And anyone who saw me juggling the kids would probably laugh if they found out I was submissive...)

 

[rinka]

I understand that, but (IMO) part of processing the clash between feminism and D/s, is understanding that your decision to submit to a man:

A) pretty much has nothing to do with the fact that male CEOs make more than female CEOs (or pick whatever power issue fits better)
B) doesn't send negative messages to children
C) isn't in conflict with feminist ideals

Maybe...

It's just a little in conflict within me.

Part of me doesn't want to want what I want.

 

[CutieMouse]

Maybe...

It's just a little in conflict within me.

Part of me doesn't want to want what I want.

That I understand.

If the genders were reversed, and you were seeing a man submitting to a woman, do you feel that would have any impact/commentary on modern gender dynamics?

 

[intothewoods]

I'm having a hard time thinking of a "submissive situation" that might occur in front of my children, that couldn't be explained away as good manners - because I understand the boundaries, and wouldn't get involved with anyone who didn't.

(And anyone who saw me juggling the kids would probably laugh if they found out I was submissive...)

That's you, but there are people for whom submission includes, for example, corrective discipline whenever and wherever. I personally do not go in for a D/s model which includes corrective punishment, and I wouldn't feel comfortable having my behavior corrected in front of my kid. I'm not a child, I'm the adult in charge of him.

All I'm saying is it's not as though every type of submission conceivable is compatible with feminism. It does take some thought to sift through it, and decide what works for you.

Maybe...

It's just a little in conflict within me.

Part of me doesn't want to want what I want.

Sure, and that's part of the hotness too in the beginning. But you get past that. I think coming to terms with your sexuality is just so undeniably empowering, that by the time you start to feel more comfortable, you won't really question whether you're a feminist anymore.

 

[CutieMouse]

That's you, but there are people for whom submission includes, for example, corrective discipline whenever and wherever. I personally do not go in for a D/s model which includes corrective punishment, and I wouldn't feel comfortable having my behavior corrected in front of my kid. I'm not a child, I'm the adult in charge of him.

Ahhh, but I never said "corrective discipline" isn't part of my version of D/s. My penitent streak is almost as wide as my masochistic one, which means yeah, things might roll that way every so often. The idea of reprimands/etc that undermine my relationship with/occur in front of the kids is on the same reality level as saying "I'll submit, but I won't kill someone/screw the terrier/commit pedophilia for you." Just doesn't compute, ya know?

All I'm saying is it's not as though every type of submission conceivable is compatible with feminism. It does take some thought to sift through it, and decide what works for you.

True... I guess the idea that submission *doesn't* work re: feminism confuses me. [to me] It smacks of the stereotypical subbies are weak, brainless, helpless, etc...

Sure, and that's part of the hotness too in the beginning. But you get past that. I think coming to terms with your sexuality is just so undeniably empowering, that by the time you start to feel more comfortable, you won't really question whether you're a feminist anymore.

Yup.

 

[JMohegan]

Interesting, but the thought of a follower being lesser than a leader never crossed my mind. I don't have an issue with D/s as a concept. I have an issue with being a woman submitting to a man and how that reflects the gender power order of our world.

I certainly don't think that it is better to dominate than to submit, but I think that men generally have way to much power.

In this context, what's your definition of "power"?

 

[La_soumise]

I wanted to say, in a strange way, thank you for posting this. It has been a comfort to me. No matter what others will say, it is strange and sometimes alienating being a feminist and a submissive at the same time. I am a pretty involved feminist and maybe even a little radical. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that many mainstream people are made to believe that feminism is something it is not, viz., general unthinking egalitarianism or misandrony. It's much more complicated than that and much more involved.

In the end, I have to reconcile the two facts that I do not want women objectified and that, at the same time, I want to be objectified, in a sense. It can be pretty harrowing.

 

[Zoots_owner]

I'd see feminism as an issue if you felt like you were submitting because you're female.

If you're submitting because of submissive tendencies in your personal nature, that's a whole different thing. People of both genders do that all the time.

Let's switch contexts for a moment, just to give you a little distance from the matter.

If I'm a black man, and I happen to really love the game of basketball, should I steadfastly avoid it because it meshes with a stereotype? And if I refuse to play it, even though I love to and am good at it, have I personally become more liberated, or less so?

I see personal liberation as something that frees one to do whatever suits one's nature. Sometimes that may seem at odds with the liberation of your class, gender, ethnicity, or what have you, but none of those groups have a right to take away your happiness, particularly when there need be no real clash between the two. Being sexually submissive need not ever be a social issue, because you have no reason to share it with society.

Finally, I'd add that voluntary submission in no way equates to inferiority. It's just a different role, no better, no worse. Submission is only a bad thing when it's forced on you. Feminism should free you from forced submission because of gender. It should not deprive you of anything that you freely choose for yourself.

 

[Fauna]

Rinka your question was something that I have thought about since I came across a Christian website a few months back that tried to use BDSM as a way to justify that men should be the head of the household. They used all kinds of bible quotes to support their idea and took the idea into all aspects of a marriage.

Please people, I'm not trying to start a religious debate here. That is not why I am posting this. I did NOT agree with the website, but it got me to thinking about my own relationships.

I had never really connected a BDSM sexual scene as reinforcing typical male-female stereotypical roles. Maybe its because I grew up in a household where my mother was clearly in charge or because I'm a Domme. In my marriage, I'm the one driving the ship. This is not because my husband is somehow inferior to me, he is my equal and my life partner. He likes my ideas and sees that I'm a better planner. I keep us on track with appointments and paying bills and making sure we buy groceries. (If it was up to him, we'd be drinking beer, eating ramen noodles and playing video games 24/7. He tells people that.)

I can tell you that my male slave is very much a manly man. You would have no idea he is sexually submissive if you saw us together. You would probably think he was just very thoughtful, attentive to my needs and protective of me. I see him as my equal.

I think a PYL/pyl relationship is an equal relationship with each side giving and receiving. It may not look like that on the outside at times, but it very much is. We are both giving time, energy, attention, and thought to what we do and how we do it. He may be standing there as I flog him and it appears he is receiving. I'm also receiving sadistic gratification from his screams. We both get sexual pleasure and have an amazing friendship.

I would suggest talking to your PYL and find out what his view of the relationship is. It might surprise you that he views you as the one in control.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

Call me simplistic but I think this all basically comes down to consent. Women who are oppressed by men and don't have a choice or are too afraid to change their personal circumstances are to be pitied and fought for. Countries where women are still treated as chattel, as less desirable children, as slaves and burdens - this is where change most needs to occur.

In the corporate arena, a female CEO doesn't consent or condone the fact that she'll earn an average of 30% less than a male in the same post. If she refused the post on the basis that she would be underpaid, would that do more or less for women in business? Surely having women in top jobs is an achievement rather than yet another cause for shame and disparity? It remains the case though, that a women who takes a CEO's post for less than a man would make is complicit in that to a degree. Where does the societal struggle for equality stop and the personal struggle begin? What is and is not the business of a self regulatory society? Do politicians' chequered love-lives have any bearing on their ability to hold office? Where does it end?

If you choose to submit to a man then you are giving consent and much of what he does will be to please you. Most sane, considerate dominant men who live in the real world have absolutely no desire to impose their will on a woman without her full consent and desire for him to do so. As the saying goes "A dominant man can make a submissive do anything she wants to do." You know you're an intelligent, independent person. You know that you won't allow anything to occur that would compromise your public persona or the maternal authority and example you are to your child. No loving dominant would want to interfere in any of that. I see this as a totally different situation to the types of unjust inequality that feminism was founded to challenge.

JMHO.

 

[rinka]

It is an equal relationship, as much as any other vanilla romantic relationship. But you know what? I think the dirty secret of most relationships is that they aren't always equal, and that's not a negative. I don't mean a relationship where one person is always sacrificing for the other. I mean a healthy relationship where one person happens to be more outspoken, or better at making decisions, or a leader, to use JM's term. In some cases, one partner may lead in some areas and not others. A whole host of dynamics are out there. So I don't think it's realistic to expect perfect equality anyway.

I completely agree and I should have said strives for equality like I first did.

I'm not sure I understand what this means exactly. Do you feel like, gee, women are always submitting to men, and now I'm just one more! Or what, exactly?

I'm thinking more of things like service. I see that there is a difference between servicing your man because you choose to and because it's what you're supposed to do as woman, but does it really look different? Or does it still make me look like the apron-moms in childrens books from the 50's?

I haven't found a lot of people on these boards who were sympathetic to this point of view, but I think it isn't such a simple thing to resolve in a person's mind. I know it wasn't for me.

In very general terms, women should have the choice to do what they want with their lives, but it is complicated. I do feel like it's important for me to control my own destiny, and I couldn't just turn over all choices wholesale to someone. No, I"m not trying to take any choice away from anyone else. Freedom is a beautiful thing. But choices have meaning, and impact. I think you need to decide what submission means to you.

 

[rinka]

That I understand.

If the genders were reversed, and you were seeing a man submitting to a woman, do you feel that would have any impact/commentary on modern gender dynamics?

A man submitting to a woman or a woman submitting to a woman doesn't reproduce classical gender roles. In my mind they therefor have a very positive commentary on gender dynamics. It breaks with the norm.

 

[rinka]

That's you, but there are people for whom submission includes, for example, corrective discipline whenever and wherever. I personally do not go in for a D/s model which includes corrective punishment, and I wouldn't feel comfortable having my behavior corrected in front of my kid. I'm not a child, I'm the adult in charge of him.

All I'm saying is it's not as though every type of submission conceivable is compatible with feminism. It does take some thought to sift through it, and decide what works for you.



Sure, and that's part of the hotness too in the beginning. But you get past that. I think coming to terms with your sexuality is just so undeniably empowering, that by the time you start to feel more comfortable, you won't really question whether you're a feminist anymore.

It is empowering and gives new perspectives to a lot of things. And I wouldn't question whether I'm a feminist or a "good" feminist.

For me it's more about adding a big new piece to my identity and life puzzle. I feel this need to make everything fit. I know that's not possible and maybe not even desirable. Some days I have the clarity and peace to let the pieces lay next to each other and just enjoy the pretty colors. Other days I can't stop pounding them.

Ahhh, but I never said "corrective discipline" isn't part of my version of D/s. My penitent streak is almost as wide as my masochistic one, which means yeah, things might roll that way every so often. The idea of reprimands/etc that undermine my relationship with/occur in front of the kids is on the same reality level as saying "I'll submit, but I won't kill someone/screw the terrier/commit pedophilia for you." Just doesn't compute, ya know?

Well it is all about choices and we can all set the limits we need and want. But I still find the discussion valuable.

True... I guess the idea that submission *doesn't* work re: feminism confuses me. [to me] It smacks of the stereotypical subbies are weak, brainless, helpless, etc...



Yup.

I think we can agree neither one of us is any of those things.

 

[rinka]

In this context, what's your definition of "power"?

I'm not mainly referring to political, economical or physical power even if I do see those as relevant. I'm more focused of the power in being the norm. Having the privilege to set the agenda, make definitions and formulate issues. Being the rule, not the exception. Having a place, not having to take it.

*sigh* I could be a lot more eloquent in Swedish.

 

[rinka]

I wanted to say, in a strange way, thank you for posting this. It has been a comfort to me. No matter what others will say, it is strange and sometimes alienating being a feminist and a submissive at the same time. I am a pretty involved feminist and maybe even a little radical. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that many mainstream people are made to believe that feminism is something it is not, viz., general unthinking egalitarianism or misandrony. It's much more complicated than that and much more involved.

In the end, I have to reconcile the two facts that I do not want women objectified and that, at the same time, I want to be objectified, in a sense. It can be pretty harrowing.

I'm glad it feels relevant for others as well.

And I know what you mean, objectification is one of my issues as well. And it's really difficult to grasp for me.

I can see how within the BDSM culture there is a bigger freedom from general ideals, and a larger acceptance of differences than in mainstream society. This in a way lessens the objectification of women.

On the other hand we have conscious objectification.

 

[YourCaptor]

Are you talking about TPE, dinners on the table kind of stuff?

In D/s I think it would help if you viewed “equal” not as even, but as balanced. One person will have more power in one aspect, while the other will have more in a different aspect. For example, while he may domineer the bedroom, you could domineer financial decisions.

As far as feminist beliefs, you have them, you preach them, and you act them. So do you think they should restrict your taste in men?

If you express belief in equal opportunities to your son, then I doubt he’s gonna have issues. Best way to demystify mixed signals is to talk about it all openly. If he does end up sexist its probably just him.

Oh and by the way, don’t hide things from your son, don’t dance around anything, when, not if, the times comes you must talk about it to him, don’t avoid it.

Thing is, you may think its private, but when he’s 15 and spent the night away from home with the girlfriend he wont tell you anything about it cause its private. If you aren’t open he won’t be either.

 

[kinkyknickers]

Rinka,
I have the attention span of a gnat, so forgive me if I am repeating someone else, but............

As far as I am concerned, being submissive to ONE man, does not make you anti-feminist. Because, literally, no one else need know about your home or sex life, including your closest family.
The_mgp is my boyfriend's wife and my girlfriend and completely submissive to both of us, but no one else knows this, simply because she holds he own in society. She doesn't take shit off anyone...... except us, because, it's HER choice.
I believe this is the ultimate in feminism, simply because she chooses who dominates her and who doesn't.
Just because we have feminist ideals, doesn't mean we abandon our feminity. Otherwise it would be called masulinist, not feminist.
As for me, I consider myself a "bottom" to M. I don't feel the need to totally submit in day to day life, but sexually I can and usually do, I prefer it that way. I'm extremely dominant in most aspects of my life, including work, and general relationships, but giving over control to someone else is by no means anti-fem in my eyes. After all, there's always someone bigger/ better at it/ smarter/ faster/ harder/ prettier/ the list goes on, than you. If it feels good, why not just go with it?

KK

Ps, your ideals are YOURS not a predetermined set of rules set by society. Fuck it, make it up as you go along. Hell, if nobody strayed off the path we'd still be living in caves.

 

[intothewoods]

I completely agree and I should have said strives for equality like I first did.

But I actually don't know that striving for equality in terms of who is more powerful is even all that desirable. There are different ways to look at power and equality in a relationship context.

To use the housewife example, there is who is doing what. Is it equal in terms of housework, caring for the children, cooking dinner. Then there is authority and decision making power.

There is financial power. I was just reading an email from a person on my message board the other day about a woman who is a stay at home mom, is getting a divorce, and has no money of her own to pay for an attorney. That's a pretty scary position to be in.

There is emotional power. We've all heard people refer to someone in a couple as "controlling," before, whether it be a woman or a man!

And there is physical power. Rough sex. Holding someone down. Wielding a flogger in the right way. All that stuff.

To me, becoming conscious in a relationship meant that all of these things become negotiated. You don't have to be the giver in all of these categories to be submissive.

Service, as far as putting on an apron or whatever, may not be your bag.

Also, have you read anything about people who are gender queer? Although I'm not, I think that there is something to take away from the ideas if you've been raised to be a strong, independent feminist woman and you're now taking on a very traditional female role. You can play with it in a lot of ways that are very cathartic.

I am having a hard time tapping into exactly what part of this is troubling to you, but it is helpful to remind yourself that you are not only consenting, which sounds very passive, but you are actively seeking and designing your own personal model.

At the end of the day, the power exchange in my personal relationship is not so important to my being a feminist. I mean, I just have bigger fish to fry. Like trying to figure out how to be the mother I want to be, and maintain my career. I think you have much better maternity leave (than us) in Sweden, if I'm not mistaken. Here in the U.S., we've got a long way to go.

 

[VelvetDarkness]

In D/s I think it would help if you viewed “equal” not as even, but as balanced. One person will have more power in one aspect, while the other will have more in a different aspect. For example, while he may domineer the bedroom, you could domineer financial decisions.

Quoted for truth.

Master and I very much identify as equals who have chosen different roles and responsibilities. Submitting to a man will not make him any better at paying the bills on time or cooking dinner without setting a fire alarm off. Those things will not change. How you relate together as a couple is your own business and if your son is still very little, he's unlikely to pick up on anything odd for a few years yet, by which time you'll have decided whether this will work for you long term and you'll also be much more secure in your choices and your role within any relationship you have.

 

[rinka]

I'd see feminism as an issue if you felt like you were submitting because you're female.

If you're submitting because of submissive tendencies in your personal nature, that's a whole different thing. People of both genders do that all the time.

Let's switch contexts for a moment, just to give you a little distance from the matter.

If I'm a black man, and I happen to really love the game of basketball, should I steadfastly avoid it because it meshes with a stereotype? And if I refuse to play it, even though I love to and am good at it, have I personally become more liberated, or less so?

I see personal liberation as something that frees one to do whatever suits one's nature. Sometimes that may seem at odds with the liberation of your class, gender, ethnicity, or what have you, but none of those groups have a right to take away your happiness, particularly when there need be no real clash between the two. Being sexually submissive need not ever be a social issue, because you have no reason to share it with society.

Finally, I'd add that voluntary submission in no way equates to inferiority. It's just a different role, no better, no worse. Submission is only a bad thing when it's forced on you. Feminism should free you from forced submission because of gender. It should not deprive you of anything that you freely choose for yourself.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. But looking at the world and my roles in it through gender aware glasses liberates me as well. And I'm not considering giving either part of me up, feminist or submissive.

 

[JMohegan]

I'm thinking more of things like service. I see that there is a difference between servicing your man because you choose to and because it's what you're supposed to do as woman, but does it really look different? Or does it still make me look like the apron-moms in childrens books from the 50's?

I support equal access to education and employment.

I do not support the idea that those who choose the "apron-mom" road are less worthy of respect than those who choose a traditionally male path.

 

[rinka]

I had never really connected a BDSM sexual scene as reinforcing typical male-female stereotypical roles. Maybe its because I grew up in a household where my mother was clearly in charge or because I'm a Domme. In my marriage, I'm the one driving the ship. This is not because my husband is somehow inferior to me, he is my equal and my life partner. He likes my ideas and sees that I'm a better planner. I keep us on track with appointments and paying bills and making sure we buy groceries. (If it was up to him, we'd be drinking beer, eating ramen noodles and playing video games 24/7. He tells people that.)

I can tell you that my male slave is very much a manly man. You would have no idea he is sexually submissive if you saw us together. You would probably think he was just very thoughtful, attentive to my needs and protective of me. I see him as my equal.

I think a PYL/pyl relationship is an equal relationship with each side giving and receiving. It may not look like that on the outside at times, but it very much is. We are both giving time, energy, attention, and thought to what we do and how we do it. He may be standing there as I flog him and it appears he is receiving. I'm also receiving sadistic gratification from his screams. We both get sexual pleasure and have an amazing friendship.

I would suggest talking to your PYL and find out what his view of the relationship is. It might surprise you that he views you as the one in control.

In my eyes this reflects one of the classic gender roles. Taking the major responsibility for a smoothly running everyday life is a burden most women take on. I see it as a form of service. Not having to worry about if there will be toilet paper or eggs tomorrow is a rather common male privilege.

If I lived with someone I would want him to share the responsibility for remembering kids dental appointments, making sure there's milk for morning coffee, putting lightbulbs on the shopping list and checking that homeworks and gym clothes are packed. Being a better planner is mostly a learnt skill.

Being a single parent I do it all now. I don't do it all very well, but there's noone else around.

Apparently you balance this out in other areas of your marriage and are happy with your roles. That sounds wonderful.

This is however a role I fear, and one of the things I feel would have a negative impact on the raising of my son. Probably sounds ridiculous and insignificant to many.

 

[JMohegan]

There is financial power. I was just reading an email from a person on my message board the other day about a woman who is a stay at home mom, is getting a divorce, and has no money of her own to pay for an attorney. That's a pretty scary position to be in.

In 2008 America? That's unconscionable.

Instead of rushing to denigrate traditional female contributions to society, we should be working toward practical ways to eliminate the economic dependence inherent in those roles.