When needs and values clash

[Homburg]

Unfortunately I do not have time right now to give this thread the read it deserves, and I hope I am not saying something that has already noted, but I recall a very useful thread by Deserving Bitch on feminism. Do a search for threads she started and you should probably find it. Quality thread.

 

[celticsunspiral]

This has been a great discussion and I read many posts that have got me thinking. A friend and I were discussing this the other day.

The thought that if I submitt to someone I am weak and as a strong professional woman there is no place for weakness. I think one possible reason goes back to women thinking to be equal to men we have to show them we can do everything they do. There is a mixing and reorganizing of "gender roles" in today's society and yet the traditional roles are still in the back of our mind. One old adage that comes to mind is "men don't cry," so we as women think of crying as weak. Yet a man who can cry a little is thought of as being empathic and a good catch, but a man who cries alot is weak. It is very hard for me for a variety of reasons to trust others with any knowledge that shows me as being "weak" or "needy" for a variety of reasons, some social and some personal. I think that is why it has taken me so long to connect, even via the internet with people who share similar thoughts on BDSM.

Just my .02 worth.

 

[rinka]

Good question.

Probably is a combination of genes, adaptation and learned behavior.

But ultimately, if you think about it, the most vehement accuser, critics and judger of a woman choice are other women, starting from the mother, and the siblings and the school friends and so on.

We are always competing with one other for the attention of whoever we deem is the one with power. Historically this has coincided with a male figure, but if the power is in a woman's hand, women will cater to the powerful female to gather her attention and protection, independently from sexual orientation, and at the same time waiting for the moment to stab her back and take her place.

Of course this is a generalization, but it is not an uncommon scenario.

I don't believe genetics have anything to do with it. Neither do I believe that women compete with each other more than men do. The general expressions may vary, but I think that is because of how men and women are socialized differently from early age.

Generally and historically women have reigned in the private sphere, men in the public. The private sphere contains a lot more intimate relations and many of the conflicts and dramas that take place there have women in the center. Women who have more powerful positions in the public sphere in some ways challenge both men's and women's domains and often become targets for attacks from both public and private spheres.

At least that's one way of looking at it.

ETA how do I feel about feminism and submission

There has never been an problem for me. I never felt feminist, if feminism meant that I had to adhere to a new stereotype of a men-like woman. I am all for equal opportunities, but that is a value that goes further than gender equality. But I am also all for acknowledging, accepting and cherishing diversity.

For me feminism is very much about not having to fit the mold. Not adhering to any stereo-types, old or new ones.

 

[rinka]

I thought about it for about a day and then said, fuck it. I will do what I want to do. So yes, it is uncomplicated for me.
(...)

Thank you

 

[rinka]

This has been a great discussion and I read many posts that have got me thinking. A friend and I were discussing this the other day.

The thought that if I submitt to someone I am weak and as a strong professional woman there is no place for weakness. I think one possible reason goes back to women thinking to be equal to men we have to show them we can do everything they do. There is a mixing and reorganizing of "gender roles" in today's society and yet the traditional roles are still in the back of our mind. One old adage that comes to mind is "men don't cry," so we as women think of crying as weak. Yet a man who can cry a little is thought of as being empathic and a good catch, but a man who cries alot is weak. It is very hard for me for a variety of reasons to trust others with any knowledge that shows me as being "weak" or "needy" for a variety of reasons, some social and some personal. I think that is why it has taken me so long to connect, even via the internet with people who share similar thoughts on BDSM.

Just my .02 worth.

It has surprised me how several replies in this thread have related to strength and weakness. For me it isn't about that and the discourse in the feminist context around me don't focus on it either.

One of the stereotypically female roles we do talk about is the "good girl". How women work so hard and have so much pressure to do so much, be so good at everything and handle so much responsibility. Career, children, lover and partner, family and friends, a beautiful home, staying in shape...

To be free from it, set limits, ask for help, take care of yourself, cut yourself some slack. Refuse to take on every responsibility just because you're good at it or you fear it won't be done otherwise.

I'm not a very good girl, I suck at a lot of that stuff. But I still feel the pressure.

 

[rinka]

Unfortunately I do not have time right now to give this thread the read it deserves, and I hope I am not saying something that has already noted, but I recall a very useful thread by Deserving Bitch on feminism. Do a search for threads she started and you should probably find it. Quality thread.

Maybe you were thinking of this: Ethical/ moral/political limits?

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=558119

It was a really good read related to this topic, and enters some other perspectives. Thanks, I hadn't seen that.

 

[rida]

I don't believe genetics have anything to do with it. Neither do I believe that women compete with each other more than men do. The general expressions may vary, but I think that is because of how men and women are socialized differently from early age.

Generally and historically women have reigned in the private sphere, men in the public. The private sphere contains a lot more intimate relations and many of the conflicts and dramas that take place there have women in the center. Women who have more powerful positions in the public sphere in some ways challenge both men's and women's domains and often become targets for attacks from both public and private spheres.

At least that's one way of looking at it.

I don't know. I find it hard to believe that genetic differences that cause physical differences have no impact on the way the brain process facts and emotions and the way we interact with each other. To me, socialization cannot explain it all.

And before people gets defensive: different, to me, does not carry any value statement.

As for "a powerful woman in a public position is seen as challenging both men's and women's domains", I'll say it challenges more the men's domain that the women's, but it is unfortunate that it is still so.

For me feminism is very much about not having to fit the mold. Not adhering to any stereo-types, old or new ones.

Exactly. So why do you worry about your being submissive not fitting the mold of a feminist woman? There is no mold, only what you want and need and the freedom to go for it.

 

[rida]

......

One of the stereotypically female roles we do talk about is the "good girl". How women work so hard and have so much pressure to do so much, be so good at everything and handle so much responsibility. Career, children, lover and partner, family and friends, a beautiful home, staying in shape...

To be free from it, set limits, ask for help, take care of yourself, cut yourself some slack. Refuse to take on every responsibility just because you're good at it or you fear it won't be done otherwise.

I'm not a very good girl, I suck at a lot of that stuff. But I still feel the pressure.

I suck at housekeeping. I cut myself plenty of slack, and pay someone to help me with it. But I love to serve my Hubby (ok, not always lol and that is why we are not 24/7) and I am the happiest when I am being submissive to him. It started in the bedroom and it is spilling out a bit, but nothing that was not there before. It is just that now, instead of resenting doing it, doing it has a meaning to me: now it is because it is part of my responsibility in the relationship, and not anymore because "it was expected", "is not going to get done otherwise", and all those other explanations that are somewhat gender specific.

At the end it might look the same from the outside. But it feels different in the inside.

 

[ultramarineblue]

Thank you for starting this discussion. I think perhaps what you define submission and feminism is key to aligning both together. There are things that define each that everyone can agree upon. However, everyone has different interpretations of meaning because although we all have shared some of the same experiences, they still come in different orders and with variations. Our experiences color how we define things.

I think a lot of it comes down to choice. I will want to do things that I normally wouldn't want to do if it pleased the one I loved. Some might say that would compromise who I truly am though. However, the beauty of it is that people change. Also, those changes may not necessarily be changes - they may be that you are closer to realizing who you really are. That last bit can be pretty frightening especially if it conflicts with other parts of who you think you are or who you think you should be. But in the end, coming to terms with that will be pretty liberating and will likely support who you've been all along.

 

[rinka]

Exactly. So why do you worry about your being submissive not fitting the mold of a feminist woman? There is no mold, only what you want and need and the freedom to go for it.

I don't. I know there is no one or right way to be a feminist woman.

When I was younger I felt that I had a problem with being too compliant, too pleasing. It has been hard for me to find my No, and the ability to say this is what I want, this is what I need. Feminist awareness has helped me a lot with that.

I can do that now, and that is the reason I'm here. I can say this is what turns me on, this is my sexuality, what I want and need in a relationship.

And yes, it scares me. I fear how far am I willing to go? What might it cost me to give up of other things I want and need?

Wanting to please, when I have had to remind myself constantly to not be so pleasing. And I know that submitting to one person is only one person, not the rest of the world. It's still frightening to let myself go there.

 

[rinka]

Thank you for starting this discussion. I think perhaps what you define submission and feminism is key to aligning both together. There are things that define each that everyone can agree upon. However, everyone has different interpretations of meaning because although we all have shared some of the same experiences, they still come in different orders and with variations. Our experiences color how we define things.

I think a lot of it comes down to choice. I will want to do things that I normally wouldn't want to do if it pleased the one I loved. Some might say that would compromise who I truly am though. However, the beauty of it is that people change. Also, those changes may not necessarily be changes - they may be that you are closer to realizing who you really are. That last bit can be pretty frightening especially if it conflicts with other parts of who you think you are or who you think you should be. But in the end, coming to terms with that will be pretty liberating and will likely support who you've been all along.

Yes, I think this describes me perfectly.

I feel a lot of relief in letting myself be who I am. And some agony.

I just need to process it, a lot.

 

[ultramarineblue]

[/B]

Yes, I think this describes me perfectly.

I feel a lot of relief in letting myself be who I am. And some agony.

I just need to process it, a lot.

I'm in exactly that same place too.

 

[rida]

......

I can do that now, and that is the reason I'm here. I can say this is what turns me on, this is my sexuality, what I want and need in a relationship.

And yes, it scares me. I fear how far am I willing to go? What might it cost me to give up of other things I want and need?

Wanting to please, when I have had to remind myself constantly to not be so pleasing. And I know that submitting to one person is only one person, not the rest of the world. It's still frightening to let myself go there.

Welcome to the club.
It's dark and scary at times, but hanging around on Lit has been a great comfort to me.You will go to a process of redefining your boundaries, letting go of some, compromise on others and keeping some others too. As all processes of self discovery is not going to be painless. Just remember you are not alone. And at the end, you'll be better for it.

 

[rinka]

Welcome to the club.
It's dark and scary at times, but hanging around on Lit has been a great comfort to me.You will go to a process of redefining your boundaries, letting go of some, compromise on others and keeping some others too. As all processes of self discovery is not going to be painless. Just remember you are not alone. And at the end, you'll be better for it.

Thank you...