Working on husband/wife sexual differences...

[footlongish]

It sounds like you still care for her and want her to care for you, thank your lucky stars you have decided to take some action, before the marriage is totally down the drain.

Yeah, I still care for her. Thanks for understanding that one can be angry with someone you love. And yeah, I'm confused. And yes, sometimes I think it would be easier to walk away.

footlongish: i hate to say this, but i can't help wondering if maybe there's been some kind of traumatic experience that's affecting her reactions. it's honestly the first thing that leapt to mind from your first post.

We are going to work on things this weekend. I'll see what I can find.

I'm confused. Didn't you post earlier that you were leaving? Are you reconsidering?

Yeah. She wants me to stay. She is willing to do whatever it takes. So we are going to dig deep and get to the bottom of things. And I mean the bottom.

 

[silverwhisper]

footlongish: i gotta be honest, i really hope that i'm wrong. i really do.

ed

 

[Cathleen]

Why are so you hesitant about seeking professional help? (YUCK!)? The idea of ''if there is no need then there wouldn't be therapists,'' comes to mind. I am a believer that psycho-therapy can and does help many people.

Secondly, not directed at any one particular person just something that ticks me off -- not all Catholics have whatever the hell this guilt thing is about. I hate generalizations. [/vent]

Foot, I read most of the thread and I cannot add anything other than this is bigger than both of you -- there is no shame or stigma in seeking help. If you wanted to learn to fly would you try learning by yourself? Plus no one needs to know you go.

I hope and wish you the best.

 

[Mazuri]

I don't remember who said it, yeah, too lazy to look it up in such a short thread, but I second writing things down. If she's a computer user, consider using email to communicate for a while about this. This will give you both a chance to think before you speak, edit before you send, and not fear the reaction of the other.

While my husband and I didn't have the intense issues you are having, beginning with email helped get us to the point that face to face conversation was no longer a terrifying prospect. This could be a good jumping off point because, face to face, it's hard to speak with your head and not your emotions. Email and letters make it a bit easier.

Again, seek counseling...joint and single. You need to find out what's wrong with you as a couple before you even think of working on what's wrong in the bedroom.

 

[Leah57]

I don't remember who said it, yeah, too lazy to look it up in such a short thread, but I second writing things down. If she's a computer user, consider using email to communicate for a while about this. This will give you both a chance to think before you speak, edit before you send, and not fear the reaction of the other.

While my husband and I didn't have the intense issues you are having, beginning with email helped get us to the point that face to face conversation was no longer a terrifying prospect. This could be a good jumping off point because, face to face, it's hard to speak with your head and not your emotions. Email and letters make it a bit easier.

Again, seek counseling...joint and single. You need to find out what's wrong with you as a couple before you even think of working on what's wrong in the bedroom.

I absolutely second this. When my BF or I want to discuss an issue that we're uncomfortable talking about, we tend to discuss it better via EMail. As Mazuri said, that way, you can think and edit before you send.

I'm not sure if someone else suggested it or not, but one of the things that I learned when I was in marriage counseling (which worked for me, but not my EX!) is that when you do discuss these things with your wife, instead of making statements to her like (to use your example) "You don't initiate sex" - turn it around to how you FEEL about that - "When you don't initiate the sex, I FEEL unwanted, unloved, undesired, whatever". Also, you have to approach this as WE have a problem for US to fix, not SHE has a problem for HER to fix.

As many have suggested, I also suggest counseling. If she can't/won't go, go yourself. Make sure you (both) are comfortable with whoever you choose. Sometimes, that means going to more than one counselor before you find the "right" one for you (both).

Think long and hard before making a life-changing decision to leave. It is never a "good" choice - it's usually the "least bad of 2 bad choices".

Best of luck to you. Keep in touch.

 

[M's girl]

I'll turn up the volume on my receiver. I'll ask more questions. But I'm pretty sure its pleasureable for her. "Its too fast. Its too slow. She can't feel it. Its too deep. Its not doing anything for her." 2 minutes later she has an orgasm. I think its just complaining. I think its like she doesn't want to say "Wow this feels great, your a great lover, I love you". I think its a defense mechanism.

Of course we have no way of knowing how this all exactly plays out in your bedroom, but consider this (coming from my own experience and I may be completely off in your case, but.....)....

At least she is giving you directions DURING sex. I always found that very difficult to do. I always talked about things when we were not having sex, expecting the guy to listen and then register what I said. Then, when he went and did the exact same thing (that I had asked him to change for me to enjoy things more) over and over again, I gave up. If I would have said anything at all during sex after that, I would have been snappy as hell, probably would have bitten his head off! I did not want to be like that so I kept my mouth shut and sulked. It's wrong, but so was he in not listening to me and about choosing to ignore my feelings.

Too fast, too slow, not feeling anything? Hey, that's PIV for a lot of women! Including me. I agree there's a different WAY to talk about this, but basicaly she's trying to tell you (unfortunately probably in the only way she 'can') that this is not working for her. Most guys don't want to hear that and choose to disgard the whole thing. After all.... she had an orgasm doesn't she, so what is she complaining about anyway?!


Again, I'm not saying this is the case with you here, but there's two things that I find more important than having an orgasm.

1] That my man listens to me and talks to and with me about how we can make things more enjoyable for the both of us, and that this results in me not having to FAKE an orgasm.... Lots of women do that. It's their easy way out, only it's not easy the way most men think it is... Most of the time it's a choice between two bads....

2] Most women enjoy the whole experience leading up to a possible orgasm far more than the orgasm itself, whether it happens or not. At least.... that is.... if the experience is made in a way that is pleasurable and enjoyable for both!​

 

[Ezzy]

Secondly, not directed at any one particular person just something that ticks me off -- not all Catholics have whatever the hell this guilt thing is about. I hate generalizations. [/vent]

I absolutely agree...There is Jewish Guilt, Mothers Guilt, Dane Gelt, Protestant Guilt, Polish Guilt, Lithuanian Guilt, But unless you are brought up by a Lithuanian Jewish Mother and a Polish lapsed Catholic, Protestant Father, then Catholic guilt on its own can screw up 9 out of 10 Christians.

















p.s. Dane Gelt or Dane Gold was paid to try and stop the Vikings from raiding Saxon England, it didn't work then and it doesn't work now! (It was also only thrown in to add a little joke to a serious point).

 

[Mazuri]

I'm not sure if someone else suggested it or not, but one of the things that I learned when I was in marriage counseling (which worked for me, but not my EX!) is that when you do discuss these things with your wife, instead of making statements to her like (to use your example) "You don't initiate sex" - turn it around to how you FEEL about that - "When you don't initiate the sex, I FEEL unwanted, unloved, undesired, whatever". Also, you have to approach this as WE have a problem for US to fix, not SHE has a problem for HER to fix.

Absolutely. I don't know how many emails I wrote and rewrote and rerewrote so they didn't come off as accusatory or "his fault". I rarely used "you" at all, in fact, and it really helped him to see that I and we had issues, not that I had a problem with him. Example: don't say "You make me feel awful by criticizing me all the time" because she will immediately see herself in the wrong and go on the defensive (generally with an attack). Say "It makes me feel awful when it seems I can't make you happy. What are some things we can do together that will make things better for us both?"

It's all in the wording, and yeah, it takes time and patience and love. Rome was not built in a day, after all.

 

[footlongish]

Wow. Great discussion. Thanks for caring and sharing.

Why are so you hesitant about seeking professional help? (YUCK!)? The idea of ''if there is no need then there wouldn't be therapists,'' comes to mind. I am a believer that psycho-therapy can and does help many people.

See my post here: https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=450163

Secondly, not directed at any one particular person just something that ticks me off -- not all Catholics have whatever the hell this guilt thing is about. I hate generalizations.

You may be right about that, but I distinctly remember when we were dating that her parents had a discussion with her about spending too much time at my apartment, even after we were engaged. And there was always this guilt about having sex. And the pre martial class the Catholic church gave us was a joke. Telling us birth control isn't allowed and such crap. But we had to take it to get married in a Catholic church. Did I mention that I hate the Catholic church these days ? And I grew up Catholic. I don't go to church anymore.

Foot, I read most of the thread and I cannot add anything other than this is bigger than both of you -- there is no shame or stigma in seeking help. If you wanted to learn to fly would you try learning by yourself? Plus no one needs to know you go.

There is something about needing to go to a counselor that hurts me inside. I get the feeling that if the relationship needs that much work and that if we can't figure it out on our own that it isn't a good relationship to begin with and its never going to be healthy.

Lets be honest here. Are my wife and I ever going to have the sort of sex life that I want ? Not even that I want, but how about one that I don't feel rejected about ?

We've gone to counselling before and nothing got resolved.

I don't understand how counselling for couples works or is supposed to work. They always focus on communication. I don't think my wife and I really have a communication problem. I know loud and clear what she tells me verbally. I think she knows how I feel about things. But there is a block somewhere that prevents us from being close and intimate. I don't see that the block is communication based. I think there is something inside my wife that prevents her from sharing sexually. I think she has something where she doesn't want to vulnerable or open or she wants it to feel yucky, like it always does.

From what I've seen of couple counselling, I don't see how it gets to identifying that sort of thing.

And something else runs through my mind here. I've been in relationships that had excellent intimacy and outstanding sex. We didn't need a counselor. She made me feel so good ! It wasn't just the fucking or the orgasms, she gave me all of herself. She made me feel whole. She told me I was great as a person and she loved me.

We didn't need a counselor to be great for each other.

How am I supposed to deal with that ? Here, now, I've been in a relationship for 14+ years that has basically run me into the ground. And yet I know that there are women out there that know how to love someone like me and build them up and make them feel good about themselves. Without counselling. Without having to spend hours discussing/arguing that something is missing or should be different.

Recently, I've formed the opinion that if a relationship needs counselling that it wasn't meant to be in the first place.

I don't remember who said it, yeah, too lazy to look it up in such a short thread, but I second writing things down. If she's a computer user, consider using email to communicate for a while about this. This will give you both a chance to think before you speak, edit before you send, and not fear the reaction of the other.

That is a good idea. I used Power Point to guide our discussion on Tuesday and that helped. email might be one step better.

Again, seek counseling...joint and single. You need to find out what's wrong with you as a couple before you even think of working on what's wrong in the bedroom.

I went about half a dozen times. Dealt with a lot of things. It was great. I'm a better person.

My wife didn't want to go. I told her she had to. She went once, came home and told me she had no personal issues and that we had couple issues. When we go to couple counselling its he said/she said. Left the toilet seat up. Loaded the dishwasher wrong. It never gets beyond that. So my homework after those sessions it to practice leaving the toilet seat down, load the dishwasher better, etc. Its like if I were a better husband (robot), I would be worthy of some love, but until then, I get NONE. I am a useless, worthless loser bastard because I leave the toilet seat up, load the dishwasher wrong, etc. That is the criticism stuff that happens outside the bedroom. And its always her criticizing me. Its one way.

So, with these "its a communications problem" type counselors, I am supposed to listen to what she says, feel her pain about the toilet seat and the incorrectly loaded dishwasher and adjust my behavior accordingly. Meanwhile, I remember back to my ex where the dishes got stacked in the sink (GOD FORBID !) because we were too busy loving each other ! Who the hell cares about dishes when we had each other to hold and love ?

Its very therapeutic to talk about all this. It also hurts to a) realize what is going on in our relationship and b) remember what a great relationship felt like. I buried a lot of those memories. They have started to come out now that I'm on Lit.

I'm not sure if someone else suggested it or not, but one of the things that I learned when I was in marriage counseling (which worked for me, but not my EX!) is that when you do discuss these things with your wife, instead of making statements to her like (to use your example) "You don't initiate sex" - turn it around to how you FEEL about that - "When you don't initiate the sex, I FEEL unwanted, unloved, undesired, whatever". Also, you have to approach this as WE have a problem for US to fix, not SHE has a problem for HER to fix.

I'm using I statements all the time. I'm good at expressing my emotions.

Now why did counselling work for you and not your Ex ?

BTW: Did anyone notice that I am putting in a lot more effort here ? I'm the one finding the counselor. I'm the one doing the reading. I'm posting on Lit. I don't mean to make a big deal about it, but if she was really committed to building a better relationship, wouldn't she be doing more ?

And one more thing about counselling. Aren't the sessions way too far apart ? "We will see you in two weeks" all the time. It takes 2 or 3 sessions until the counselor knows anything about the couple. So that is 6 weeks. And then very little seems to get covered in a session. It takes months and months to get anything covered in counselling.

Think long and hard before making a life-changing decision to leave. It is never a "good" choice - it's usually the "least bad of 2 bad choices".

I think you are trying to tell me something here. I'd love to hear your insight more directly.

Of course we have no way of knowing how this all exactly plays out in your bedroom, but consider this (coming from my own experience and I may be completely off in your case, but.....)....

At least she is giving you directions DURING sex. I always found that very difficult to do. I always talked about things when we were not having sex, expecting the guy to listen and then register what I said. Then, when he went and did the exact same thing (that I had asked him to change for me to enjoy things more) over and over again, I gave up. If I would have said anything at all during sex after that, I would have been snappy as hell, probably would have bitten his head off! I did not want to be like that so I kept my mouth shut and sulked. It's wrong, but so was he in not listening to me and about choosing to ignore my feelings.

Well... she tells me when something isn't working. If I ask her what I am supposed to do instead, I get "I don't know". She has never masturbated for me. She won't. She is short and terse with me in bed, which hurts like hell. Wanna turn someone off of giving you pleasure ? Be short and terse with him. I'm rubbing her clit and I change positions. "No, not there". And when I get it right, she is silent. There is no "that feels good there". Luckily she can't be silent when she has an orgasm, so I get some satisfaction there.

Too fast, too slow, not feeling anything? Hey, that's PIV for a lot of women! Including me. I agree there's a different WAY to talk about this, but basicaly she's trying to tell you (unfortunately probably in the only way she 'can') that this is not working for her. Most guys don't want to hear that and choose to disgard the whole thing. After all.... she had an orgasm doesn't she, so what is she complaining about anyway?!

What is PIV ? I'm way more sensitive to a woman than that. I'm a giver. I'm a listener. My wife has never told me I am a bad lover, and I'm pretty sure she would. When I question her about her orgasms, she gives grades of 7,8 and 9 and judging from her actions and how wet she gets, I don't think she is faking.

I absolutely agree...There is Jewish Guilt, Mothers Guilt, Dane Gelt, Protestant Guilt, Polish Guilt, Lithuanian Guilt, But unless you are brought up by a Lithuanian Jewish Mother and a Polish lapsed Catholic, Protestant Father, then Catholic guilt on its own can screw up 9 out of 10 Christians.

Great line !

Absolutely. I don't know how many emails I wrote and rewrote and rerewrote so they didn't come off as accusatory or "his fault". I rarely used "you" at all, in fact, and it really helped him to see that I and we had issues, not that I had a problem with him. Example: don't say "You make me feel awful by criticizing me all the time" because she will immediately see herself in the wrong and go on the defensive (generally with an attack). Say "It makes me feel awful when it seems I can't make you happy. What are some things we can do together that will make things better for us both?"

It's all in the wording, and yeah, it takes time and patience and love. Rome was not built in a day, after all.

This morning, I am sick of the whole situation. I don't feel like doing this anymore. The problem with "It makes me feel awful when it seems I can't make you happy." is that I am bending over backwards to make this work and I get very little in return. What will I get ? A normal sex life that I really should have had all along ? A woman that actually praises me for being caring and sensitive in bed instead of biting my head off.

I was feeling amorous last night and I initiated "closeness". Not saying we were going to have sex or anything. I just wanted to feel something. Anything. And the patterns of her response are still there. I mean, I didn't think they were going to be gone, but there was absolutely no change. I just stopped. I couldn't go on. This is why I couldn't have sex with her for the last 9 months. It just hurts so much to love someone and want to be close to her and then feel totally rejected and bad when you try to be intimate. That is the crux of it all. For the last 14 years I have always gotten a bad feeling from being intimate with my wife.

Now that I realize it and write it, its totally devastating.

 

[bobsgirl]

And something else runs through my mind here. I've been in relationships that had excellent intimacy and outstanding sex. We didn't need a counselor. She made me feel so good ! It wasn't just the fucking or the orgasms, she gave me all of herself. She made me feel whole. She told me I was great as a person and she loved me.

I'm sorry you don't have this with your wife. I can understand why you have a negative view of couples counseling. But I sure would recommend individual counseling for you. Granted, we haven't heard it from her side of things, but it seems as though this has take a huge emotional toll on you. Counseling at least might help you make the very important difficult decision of whether or not to end your marriage.

You say she's a devout Catholic? She may be trying to save your marriage because divorce is so...not sure of the right word...distasteful to a lot of Catholics. (Trying not to generalize here, Cate.) I don't know. I just would hate to see both of you suffer like this because neither one of you was willing to make a choice.

At any rate, FL-ish, I wish you the strength you'll need to work this out. Good luck to you.

 

[M's girl]

What is PIV ? I'm way more sensitive to a woman than that. I'm a giver. I'm a listener. My wife has never told me I am a bad lover, and I'm pretty sure she would. When I question her about her orgasms, she gives grades of 7,8 and 9 and judging from her actions and how wet she gets, I don't think she is faking.

PIV = Penis In Vagina (sex)

Listen, I don't want to put you down, I don't want to be right or anything. Most women who have a hard time reaching an orgasm CAN get plenty wet. I'm living proof of that! And I'm not proud of it or anything, but I can fake orgasms, like most women can, pretty well. You would NOT know the difference.

I'm not saying she is doing that, but never ever rule it out.... With my current partner there is no need to fake things anymore, but I could fool him any day without much effort; I'm that good... unfortunately

 

[Ezzy]

I don't understand how counselling for couples works or is supposed to work. They always focus on communication. I don't think my wife and I really have a communication problem. I know loud and clear what she tells me verbally. I think she knows how I feel about things. But there is a block somewhere that prevents us from being close and intimate. I don't see that the block is communication based. I think there is something inside my wife that prevents her from sharing sexually. I think she has something where she doesn't want to vulnerable or open or she wants it to feel yucky, like it always does.

So, with these "its a communications problem" type counselors, I am supposed to listen to what she says, feel her pain about the toilet seat and the incorrectly loaded dishwasher and adjust my behavior accordingly. Meanwhile, I remember back to my ex where the dishes got stacked in the sink (GOD FORBID !) because we were too busy loving each other ! Who the hell cares about dishes when we had each other to hold and love?

These bolded areas are some of those things were communication IS a problem!

 

[londonaberdeen]

We have friends who recently split after 4 years marriage.

He complained to me of her being distant, never initiating sex. Being cold outside the bedroom. He also said she enjoyed sex when he initiated it.

She says, now, he was a selfish lover, quite demanding in his needs, never a thought of what is important to her. In her case this was her career and she liked hosting parties, he didn't like to help. Apparantly she faked orgasms to keep him happy as she said crap sex was at least sex.

We are of course are only priviledged to one side of the story and I'm in no position to judge but reading your posts I would add the comment that you think the problem is with your wife.

Could her problem be you? I would go with everyone elses view here on some form of councelling, even if it starts with an honest frank discussion just the two of you, fully dressed and outside the bedroom. I'd add keep an open mind and be prepared to accept surprise criticism.

I wish you both happiness and I hope you get this resolved, for the sake of all three of you.

 

[Leah57]

going to respond to a few questions

since you asked me.....

[quote:]Now why did counselling work for you and not your Ex ?[/quote]

I think the reason counselling didn't work for my EX was because he didn't think that HE was doing anything wrong, and there was nothing HE had to fix.... even tho WE had problems. (hence, reason #1 that he is an EX!)

[quote:] Quote:
Think long and hard before making a life-changing decision to leave. It is never a "good" choice - it's usually the "least bad of 2 bad choices".


I think you are trying to tell me something here. I'd love to hear your insight more directly.
[/quote]

Ending a marriage is not a trivial decision, and involves a LOT of pain, even if the marriage is bad. When I left my EX, I had 2 bad choices - stay in a bad relationship "because of the kids", or leave, revealing LOTS of pain and ugliness to my very 'family oriented and straight-laced' parents and family, and strike out literally on my own for the first time in my life.

You indicated you had a child/children. Understand that they will be negatively impacted as well, and will probably need counseling.

 

[footlongish]

Could her problem be you? I would go with everyone elses view here on some form of councelling, even if it starts with an honest frank discussion just the two of you, fully dressed and outside the bedroom. I'd add keep an open mind and be prepared to accept surprise criticism.

Of course it could be me. But if it is, nobody is telling me. And it isn't that I'm not listening.

 

[M's girl]

Of course it could be me. But if it is, nobody is telling me. And it isn't that I'm not listening.

I think your wife is!

She complains in bed. She complains outside the bedroom too. It's a way of telling you, you know? What else do you need?

 

[Eilan]

I'm not trying to toot my own horn here (really!), but maybe there's some info in this thread that could be useful?

 

[Mazuri]

There is something about needing to go to a counselor that hurts me inside. I get the feeling that if the relationship needs that much work and that if we can't figure it out on our own that it isn't a good relationship to begin with and its never going to be healthy.

Marriages aren't fluffy cotton candy. Marriages are work. If you want it bad enough, you'll work hard for it, even if it seems you're the only one doing the work. Why? Because it's worth it for you and 10 years down the road you don't want to have to second guess yourself and ask "what if I'd done X?"

Lets be honest here. Are my wife and I ever going to have the sort of sex life that I want ? Not even that I want, but how about one that I don't feel rejected about ?

I truly believe this is already answered in your mind and you are either a) looking for validation or b) hoping it's not true. You no longer think you'll have what you want from this relationship. You've lost hope and are either looking for someone else to point out that there's no hope or to point to a magic fix. There is no magic fix, it will take time (and I do mean months and years) to recover from such a crack in the foundation.

I don't understand how counselling for couples works or is supposed to work. They always focus on communication. I don't think my wife and I really have a communication problem. I know loud and clear what she tells me verbally. I think she knows how I feel about things. But there is a block somewhere that prevents us from being close and intimate. I don't see that the block is communication based. I think there is something inside my wife that prevents her from sharing sexually. I think she has something where she doesn't want to vulnerable or open or she wants it to feel yucky, like it always does.

You DO have a communication problem. A big one. Look what you wrote above: you THINK this or that about your wife...not that you've asked and been told, but you're guessing, making assumptions. She's a grown woman who can think for herself. Don't try to think for her or second guess her. Find out the truth from her.

And something else runs through my mind here. I've been in relationships that had excellent intimacy and outstanding sex. We didn't need a counselor. She made me feel so good ! It wasn't just the fucking or the orgasms, she gave me all of herself. She made me feel whole. She told me I was great as a person and she loved me.

Of course you'd be thinking of this at this time, these are happy memories and you're currently not happy. But think for a moment...these are EX-girlfriends. There's a reason they're EX-girlfriends. Don't see your memories with them through rose-colored glasses just because things are going south with your wife.

And yet I know that there are women out there that know how to love someone like me and build them up and make them feel good about themselves. Without counselling. Without having to spend hours discussing/arguing that something is missing or should be different.

This sounds, to me, like you're justifying moving on. The only thing I can say, really, is if you've made the decision to leave: do it! Don't keep waffling. Either you've given up on the relationship or you're working to improve it, don't be a fence sitter. Your child deserves better than to see this. He/she will feel this is the way relationships are supposed to happen and that's not something he/she needs to learn.

That is a good idea. I used Power Point to guide our discussion on Tuesday and that helped. email might be one step better.

*blinks* you used a Power Point slide to discuss your relationship? How on earth? What were the slides of? That gives me a kinda creepy vibe for some reason that I can't put my finger on

My wife didn't want to go. I told her she had to.

You told her she had to?!? Or what? Or else? Blackmail will not be conducive to a good counseling session. If she doesn't want to go, then you go for yourself and hope she will see reason to join you for the sake of the relationship. I think I'd be more than a tad pissed if I were told I HAD TO like a recalcitrant child.

She went once, came home and told me she had no personal issues and that we had couple issues. When we go to couple counselling its he said/she said. Left the toilet seat up. Loaded the dishwasher wrong. It never gets beyond that. So my homework after those sessions it to practice leaving the toilet seat down, load the dishwasher better, etc. Its like if I were a better husband (robot), I would be worthy of some love, but until then, I get NONE. I am a useless, worthless loser bastard because I leave the toilet seat up, load the dishwasher wrong, etc. That is the criticism stuff that happens outside the bedroom. And its always her criticizing me. Its one way.

Why does it never get beyond that? Perhaps instead of seeing this as a power play, see it for what it is: she's expressing her wishes and you are either blowing her off or resenting her for her preferences. The issue isn't the toilet seat, or the dishwasher (maybe)...I'd lay money it's one of respect. After being forced to go to counseling when she didn't want to go, she's forcing you to see her as something other than a child to order around.

So, with these "its a communications problem" type counselors, I am supposed to listen to what she says, feel her pain about the toilet seat and the incorrectly loaded dishwasher and adjust my behavior accordingly.

Someone has to be the one to take the first steps, to be the first one to give...and I don't mean reluctantly and with resentment, either. But truly give. It's hard I know. I'm the kind who holds onto resentments and grudges. There are people I'd not piss on if they were on fire and the wrong they supposedly did to me is older than my teenaged daughter. But I hold onto that like a security blanket. Well, that's something I had to learn to let go in order to make my marriage work. And it was hard. And scary. Releasing the anger and the frustrations and the pain and the resentment leaves you open to more pain. But you have to accept that, and let go, in order to make things work.

Meanwhile, I remember back to my ex where the dishes got stacked in the sink (GOD FORBID !) because we were too busy loving each other ! Who the hell cares about dishes when we had each other to hold and love ?

Do you think your wife doesn't know this: that you compare her so very unfavorably to your past lovers? Can you imagine what that does to her? Your ex is your ex...if you thought she was so great, you should have stayed with her. She has no business being in your head right now. It will only make things worse because the time will come when you're both angry with each other and that statement, in some form, will come out your mouth. If I were your spouse in that moment, I'd be packing your suitcases.

BTW: Did anyone notice that I am putting in a lot more effort here ? I'm the one finding the counselor. I'm the one doing the reading. I'm posting on Lit. I don't mean to make a big deal about it, but if she was really committed to building a better relationship, wouldn't she be doing more ?

Don't assume that she's doing nothing. How do you know she's not reading too unless you're with each other 24/7? How do you know she's not mortified at having your dirty laundry aired in public? How do you know she's not drumming up the courage to talk to you and failing day in and day out? You have no way of knowing. Yes, you may be putting a lot more effort in that you can see...but that doesn't mean she doesn't want things to improve any less than you. She may not know how to help. She may not even know what's "wrong" with herself and suffering her own torments. You can't assume anything on her behalf because you're not in her head.

And one more thing about counselling. Aren't the sessions way too far apart ? "We will see you in two weeks" all the time.

Have you asked the counseller for shorter breaks or asked them why the reason for the long ones?

Well... she tells me when something isn't working. If I ask her what I am supposed to do instead, I get "I don't know". She has never masturbated for me. She won't. She is short and terse with me in bed, which hurts like hell. Wanna turn someone off of giving you pleasure ? Be short and terse with him. I'm rubbing her clit and I change positions. "No, not there". And when I get it right, she is silent. There is no "that feels good there". Luckily she can't be silent when she has an orgasm, so I get some satisfaction there.

Have you ever thought that maybe she's telling the truth: she doesn't know? Have you ever thought that maybe she's never masturbated before? You said she was raised in a strict religious household. I'm not Catholic, and know little of the religion, but isn't masturbation taught as a sin?

If she's awkward, shy, or simply uncomfortable stating her wishes and preferences in bed and, when she tells you that something doesn't please her, you get upset by it, she's probably withdrawing even more and simply wishing it were over. It's not all about your pleasure, but hers as well. And don't take silence as "getting it right" either. Maybe she's just tired of torquing you off and is simply putting up with it until you're done?

Oh, and stop putting so much emphasis on orgasms. They can be faked and aren't the end all and be all for a woman in bed.

This morning, I am sick of the whole situation. I don't feel like doing this anymore. The problem with "It makes me feel awful when it seems I can't make you happy." is that I am bending over backwards to make this work and I get very little in return. What will I get ? A normal sex life that I really should have had all along ? A woman that actually praises me for being caring and sensitive in bed instead of biting my head off.

If all you can see is the sexlife as the reward for trying to make your marriage work, then I fear there's not much reason for you to keep trying. Also...take a long hard look in the mirror. Make sure you actually are as caring and sensitive as you think you are and aren't projecting your desires onto her.

I was feeling amorous last night and I initiated "closeness". Not saying we were going to have sex or anything. I just wanted to feel something. Anything. And the patterns of her response are still there. I mean, I didn't think they were going to be gone, but there was absolutely no change. I just stopped. I couldn't go on.

It's been only a few days at most...what kind of miracle were you expecting?! And look at what you wrote: you were feeling amorous, you wanted to feel something. Your wants, your needs, your sexlife. What about hers?

I'm going to give you the validation I think you're looking for: I don't think the marriage can be saved. However, it's not all her fault.

((edited because I hate broken quotes))

 

[Eilan]

Mazuri, you make many excellent points. It's possible to do a lot of talking without doing a lot of communicating. Been there, done that.

Doesn't sound to me like this is entirely about the sex. I've always been a firm believer that sexual problems often have their root causes in outside-the-bedroom issues.

And I know it'll never happen, but I'd be interested in hearing your wife's POV. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I'd say that the truth lies somewhere between both sides. Again, been there, done that.

Sorry to offend.

 

[Cathleen]

Bottom line: your marriage is in trouble, from the sound of things it has been from day one.

Nothing you two have done thus far has helped or corrected the problems. There might not be anything to save. I know you are against therapy (yes I did read and had contributed to that thread), you see it as something bad and you as well as your wife are unwilling to look at it any differently. You say you've communicated clearly to her. You've done ''everything.''

I will guarantee you will not find ''the answer'' here. What you might find are others that have been in similar situations and they've shared things that worked or didn't work. But the one thing that is mentioned by just about everyone is the thing you're closed to.

There will be more than one answer to this, many more. Willingness isn't about posting on Lit to make it better -- willingness is doing things that are new or even scary to grow as a person and as a husband, as will your wife. Willingness take guts -- it's not spilling your guts here, not talking ad nauseum to strangers -- it's communicating with your wife with complete honesty and she to you. That is really tough stuff to do for all of us.

If you want permission to leave then you might have some of that guilt stuff.

(Man I can't believe I'm going to post this (I'm not usually so mean). For what it's worth Foot, I do wish you well. Everyone deserves to be happy, I hope you can find it with or without your wife.)

 

[Eilan]

I used Power Point to guide our discussion on Tuesday and that helped.

If I were your wife, I would find this a teensy bit condescending.

 

[Cathleen]

If I were your wife, I would find this a teensy bit condescending.

I'd find a way to power point him (not Foot, just 'him').

 

[Ladybird]

When my ex and I first married, his libido was much stronger than mine. Mind you, I was only 17 so I was still finding my sexuality. He was very forceful and insistent about having sex frequently. While I usually enjoyed it, it was still under sufferance. He wasn't a thoughtful or considerate lover and I remember how I would wait for it to get better. Gradually it did.

As the years progressed, we became bogged down with young children and a mortgage. Times were tough. Often I would reach out for a hug, a cuddle - not just in the bedroom but while cooking dinner, watching tv etc. I just wanted to feel him, the comfort of him. But he repeatedly mistook my need to be held as a prelude to sex. It was unpleasant pulling him off, telling him 'no, I just want you to hold me, hug me'. Until it became too hard and I stopped turning to him. With that went a lot of intimacy and sponteneity. I was afraid my actions would lead to an argument.

He would sometimes watch porn once I went to bed. He'd then come to me, aroused by other women, and want sex. I hated that, but he didn't understand. The gulf between us grew.

Through all of this I still loved him, needed him, but couldn't find the intimacy and loving that I needed from him.

Without this bond we grew even further apart, and eventually went our own ways.

What I'm trying to say here footlongish, is that communication really is the key. If you can't find a way to open up and talk frankly and openly with each other, then you really do need a mediator.

Often problems in the bedroom stem from something else. Something neither of you may even be aware of.

If you want your marriage to work, then you have to work at it. Talk to someone, before it's too late.

My best wishes to you and your wife, I hope you share a long and very happy life together.

 

[footlongish]

Well... progress, for me anyway.

I got up this morning and started reading Gottman again. I went out and did some things on my own, got some fresh air. When I came home we had dinner and then she led me into the bedroom to be closer to me. I appreciated the gesture and expressed that, but I couldn't get into it. It was still good for both of us. A repair attempt by her.

We spend some time together reading. She had a shower. While she was in the shower, I did a domestic chore. Apparently I did it wrong, because when she got out, she tore into me. I kind of detached myself from the argument and sat back and watched. With Gottman fresh in my mind, it is suddenly very clear that my wife is a terrible fighter. For those of you that have read Gottman, she starts harsh, she criticizes, she displays disgust, etc. Rebuffs repair attempts. Holds grudges. All the things that shouldn't go on in a fight. And then I started thinking about how my wife conducts herself with others. She has had fights with her sister and her parents. She is very hard on salespeople and waiters. This is her personality. She was raised like this. Her father is the same way.

So thats what goes on outside of the bedroom. What I did domestically wasn't a big deal. Hardly worth a fight in the first place. But my wife has a temper and she is a bit hot headed and she fights dirty, tooth and nail. And it does tremendous damage, day in day out.

I think the bedroom stuff is an extension of her attitude. My wife has very little patience for things that she doesn't agree with.

I always knew she was a dirty fighter, but I never saw it in quite the same context as I did this evening. Tonight it was very clear.

So that is what goes on outside the bedroom. That is where the damage between us starts. Tomorrow (today) I am going to tackle this issue with her. Try to teach her how to fight fair. Show her the damage she does when she acts like this.

 

[footlongish]

There is a lot of criticism here of how I am handling this. I'm not looking for validation on this board. And it is useful to read the feedback and receive a few PMs.

Its not all her fault ? I agree.

Re: its communication or not. Just because 2 people don't agree on something doesn't mean that they haven't communicated. I'm not going to get into it. I know what you are saying. Read Gottman. 7 Steps to a Successful Marriage.

Re: exes and rose colored glasses. There is an element of truth in that but there is also no denying that my relationship with my Ex was better than my relationship with my wife. Its not just hindsight. My Ex had much better relationship skills.

"Willingness take guts -- it's not spilling your guts here, not talking ad nauseum to strangers -- it's communicating with your wife with complete honesty and she to you."

Spilling my guts here is good for me. Therapeutic. It helps me see things. Even just writing them down is good. This is like having a diary that other people read and comment on.

Communicating with my wife isn't easy. I've already told you she is a dirty fighter and we get gridlocked. And it isn't a communication thing, she already knows what I tell her and I know what she tells me. We aren't breaking new ground. The problem is finding RESOLUTION that works for both of us.