You May Not Write About This Scene

[Svenskaflicka]

I must have read Romeo and Juliet very sloppy. In what scene were they having sex???

 

[Rainbow Skin]

Act 3, Scene 5. Capulet's orchard. Enter Romeo and Juliet, aloft.

Jul. Wilt thou be gone? It is not yet near day;
It was the nightingale, and not the lark,
That pierc'd the fearful hollow of thine ear;
Nightly she sings on yond pomegranate tree.
Believe me, love, it was the nightingale.

Rom. It was the lark, the herald of the morn,
No nightingale.
...
I must be gone and live, or stay and die.

No explicit stage instructions, no explicit depiction, but this is the bit where he's frantically doing up his breeches and girding his sword and so on, and the Nurse pops her head in to say Lady Capulet is coming, so scoot.

I'm assuming aloft doesn't mean they're in an apple tree.

Oops, edited out 'the Countess'. Does she sing her aria too?

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I always assumed that scene was about them sitting in her room, snogging innocently. Romeo was only 14, for crying out loud! Could he even get it up?

 

[Rainbow Skin]

That you only think of innocent snogging is very sweet, but they were married by then, and though I haven't a 14-year-old's body conveniently to hand to study, I think it must be physically possible.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I thought that scene took place before they ran away, and when they did run away, they ended up dead before they got a chance to marry each other?

Haven't read the play for years, though, so I could remember wrong.

 

[Rainbow Skin]

Act 2, scene 6, Juliet arrives at Friar Lawrence's cell where Romeo is waiting, and the scene ends with

Fri. L. Come, come with me, and we will make short work;
For, by your leaves, you shall not stay alone
Till holy church incorporate two in one.

After this and their night of innocent snogging, J. refers to R. several times as her husband and lord. Then Act 4, scene 1, when she's seeking help from the friar:

Jul. ... God join'd my heart and Romeo's, thou our hands;
And ere this hand, by thee to Romeo seal'd...

I'm curious about the history of marriage customs. Assuming Shakespeare wasn't wildly ignoring inconvenient details, they could get a church wedding in secret, without banns or licence, and of course without consent and at that age.

 

[Pure]

Iirc, priest have emergency powers. Age is 'our' issue, not the folks of R and J's times.

I ask, is a short story writeup of Romeo and Juliet (with no more and no less detail) postable at Literotica?

Could it lead to the shutdown, the vision of which has panicked Mr. Og?

Why is R&J art and not, say, one of Math Girls "First Time" stories?
(well written, highly rated).

 

[wildsweetone]

Iirc, priest have emergency powers. Age is 'our' issue, not the folks of R and J's times.

I ask, is a short story writeup of Romeo and Juliet (with no more and no less detail) postable at Literotica?

Could it lead to the shutdown, the vision of which has panicked Mr. Og?

Why is R&J art and not, say, one of Math Girls "First Time" stories?
(well written, highly rated).

I would guess that the insinuation of sex between Romeo and Juliet is enough to ensure the short story writeup would not be posted on Literotica. Underage sex is underage sex eh. No matter who the players.

I don't know about it leading to the shutdown. It sounds like the laws in England have a great deal of erotic writers worried. I'm not sure what the laws in New Zealand are, nor America. But if there is enough serious concern in England, then perhaps it's about time I learned the law. Frankly, I don't wish to be connected to anything that contains underage sex, no matter what country it's based in.

As for your last question comparing R&J art to MG's stories. R&J has had time to become art. Oh darn, now that needs thinking about. It is not time which makes art. grrr I need to go think again.

Pure your PM box is full.

 

[Guest]

le petite morte

I must be gone and live, or stay and die.

Just to note that Shakepeare's audeince knew this meant if Romeo stayed he would die to love, i.e., have an orgasm. There are numerous sexual puns throughout the plays, the metaphor of death one of the most used.

Perdita (name taken after the nymphette in The Winter's Tale)

 

[Pure]

/I must be gone and live, or stay and die. /

It's a nice pun.

I ask, about R and J: does anything R or J say, after Act three, scene five, indicate that they've 'done the deed.'

Act 4, scene 1 merely shows J thinks they're married.

It may be relevant, as a RC priest just told me, that a 'priest' does not 'marry' the couple, as in a protestant church. They marry each other, the priest being God's representative and witness.

This may be relevant to underage and commonlaw situations.

 

[Guest]

does anything R or J say, after Act three, scene five, indicate that they've 'done the deed.'

There is no more clear evidence that R&J had sex than there is about Hamlet and Ophelia, but the texts allude to it as only Sh're could allude. There is no direct text of evidence that Lady Capulet had sex with Tybalt either, but read her reactions to his death.

Some Sh're scholars, and some filmakers, make careers on these sticking points but as in all the plays the author is concerned with much more than explicit actions vs. what makes human beings act the way they do. It is why the history plays are not necessarily accurate as history.

I daresay it is one element that raises a work (whatever the content) to 'art'.

p.s. The RCC has changed much canon law (vs. dogma) since Elizabethan England. A historical theologian might provide the proof but it is generally acknowledged that marriage by a priest was required for the sacrament to be valid (more so than a civil marriage as we know it today). I don't know how much relevance this would have to marriage and common law situations; a Renaissancer historian could help more than me.

Perdita

 

[Weird Harold]

[BI ask, about R and J: does anything R or J say, after Act three, scene five, indicate that they've 'done the deed.'

Act 4, scene 1 merely shows J thinks they're married.[/B]

Marriage at that time was not complete until consummated -- If Juliet calls Romeo "husband" then the "deed has been done. "

Romeo and Juliet, updated to Modern English -- including translating all of the puns and sexul innuendo probably would NOT get posted at Lit because it involves "underage" characters by modern standards andif the sexual innuendos are properly translated it's an erotic story.

R&J might make it as a non-erotic story here at Lit without the sexual innuendos translated because it's primarily a Love Story and not an "erotic" story and there is no direct depiction of sexual acts.

However, R&J would have a problem not associated with the age of the characters or the amount of sex with getting posted at Lit -- unless Wm Shakespear came back from the grave and submitted it -- It not an original work for any modern author. One of the main submission guidelines is that the works submitted to Literorica must be original works and a simple "translation" of R&J probably wouldn't qualify.

A "True Story of Romeo And Juliet" adaptation might be acceptable as an "original work" but would have to meet the age limitations, just as any other submission does.

 

[Guest]

Marriage at that time was not complete until consummated ...

A "True Story of Romeo And Juliet" adaptation might be acceptable as an "original work" but would have to meet the age limitations, just as any other submission does.

True about the consummation bit; marriages not consummated were annulled by the RCC; even today it is allowable; not sure about civil law though.

As for the 'true story' suggestion, again I need to point out that the 'story' is only an underpinning; the point in Sh're is the language and drama, not the stories. I'm not demeaning ordinary stories but re-writing R&J for Lit. would be for me like Disney adaptations of literature and history.

Perdita

 

[Pure]

//it is generally acknowledged that marriage by a priest was required for the sacrament to be valid//

I didn't dispute this, I said only that the priest did not 'marry' the two--cause their marriage to exist. Their saying the vows befor God and His witness causes the marriage to exist. The priest's presence as witness and representative is nec., I agree, though not throughout history. In 'early enough' periods, there are common law marriages, and gradually the RC church and the Anglican church, inserted themselves as it were: a priests gotta be there at a ceremony.

J.

 

[Guest]

I didn't dispute this...

Pure, I was not arguing, believe me. Perhaps I once again wasn't all that clear. You make a good point. In the RCC the priest is only a representative of God and Christ; he is anointed to 'give' the sacraments as that representative but it is acknowledged that the grace of them comes from God.

It's a pretty dense history you speak about re. religions (not just Christian) and affairs of state (marriage, paternity, maternity, etc.)

P.

 

[Rainbow Skin]

Marriage and wedding were different until 1753 (under English law). It was not unusual for the wife to be pregnant at her wedding - Shakespeare and Anne Hathaway being one example. I recently read (where? and about where?) of somewhere where being pregnant was actually a requisite of the wedding.

Engagement counted as a marriage. In fact, history turns on this. Edward V was deposed because he was declared illegitimate, his father Edward IV having been promised to another at the time of his wedding to the future queen.

 

[Couture]

Oggs, Alt.Sex.Stories has been around since before Literotica was a gleam in Laurel's eye.

 

[Pure]

Regarding some of the legal stuff already posted. Ogg does not seem sensitive, in his scrubbing the harddrive--if that's what he does-- to the diff. between pornography and possibly obscene written material. It's the *pictures* of young folks that have caused international hunts; seizure of hard drives, etc.

Perhaps things are difference in England and its proposed laws, but texts seem pretty safe, virtually regardless of content.

Indeed, Ogg, have you ever looked at Extreme? I believe it's run by Laurel and co. It has TEXTS with sex torture**, snuff, bestiality, etc. I supposed it's run 'at arms length' so that it could be jettisoned in a right wing crisis, when Robertson, and what's his name from Mississippi take over (De Lay?). The 'child' line is not crossed, iirc, but surely the material would freak the churchmen and women; hell it freaks me. I look on it as like those centres is some European countries where heroin is handed to addicts: it's a means of control; you know where the sick ones are hanging and you don't have to go looking for them.

J.

**Not that picture of this are hard to find on the 'net, but one assumes it's mostly (99%) shammed and/or consensual.




J.

 

[Pure]

Romeo, art thou doing it?

I re-read a lot of the latter part. I think Perdita characterized it pretty well. It's much like those 30s-50s movies. There are 'lead ups', then 'next days'. No fucking on screen or stage.
Indeed many tragedies, plays, have minimal violence on stage.
It lets the reader imagine, and also see it through the characters' eyes.

It's pretty clear: The priest believes he joined them in marriage; the priest knows she can't be married to Paris. They call each other husband and wife. They have secret meetings. It seems

that about 2 1/2 days pass from wedding (Mon aft) to deaths

(Wed night; Thurs morn), though Juliet is unconscious for the last day of that period --takes the potion Tues night-, then wakes up briefly. So there's about one night and a day of opportunities.

Or...


Maybe more: consider some possibilities that a depraved mind considers. Juliet know she's gotta lie low, and is intent on getting pregnant in case her relatives deny the marriage or at worst, kill Romeo. Before passing out, she arranges with the nurse to admit Romeo to the chamber, after; and also to the funeral chamber to have sex with her. He's happy since there's a faint glow, still, to her, and an occasional moan. After a few encounters, he's off. He's expecting to sham the whole 'hears of her death' and 'discovers her body' scenes. Unfortunately, when he arrives at the crypt, she's blue, almost stiff. Apparently an OD. He can't let on what happened. He freaks, for real, not sham, over the apparent death, and drinks the poison.

J.

 

[Guest]

Romeo, art thou doing it?

Hmmm there are some possibilities, there, that a depraved mind considers. OK, it show Romeo out of town, but....

LOL. Now *that* rewrite of R&J I would read. Let me know if you submit it, Pure.

Pervy Perdita

 

[Pure]

Just did, P, read the plot summary added.!

J.


PS: if the short story version of R and J, freaks folks because of underage, how about a little underage quasi-necro.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

Marriage was a practical matter in early days. When a boy or a girl hit puberty, they were ready to become grown ups, with everything that meant; hard work, sexual desire, childbirth... There was no time for people to be teenagers, to study advanced technology, to backpack around the world, or find themselves; they felt they were ready to join the grown up world, and that's why they got married when they were 12-13.

It's different now, and the rules are thereafter. Maybe in the future, no-one will be legally allowed to marry before 40, and we will all live to be 150, and the people of the future will talk about the perverted weirdos of the 1900, who fucked around when they were only 20!

 

[TheEarl]

One of the leadups is Juliet's solilique after Tybalt gets murdered, but before she finds out about it where she speaks of 'being bought, but not enjoyed.' It suggests that she was expecting to be enjoyed as soon as they got the chance.

The Earl

 

[Guest]

Earl, very good citation. Crap, now I'll have to re-read the whole play (not one of my faves).

Pear

 

[Pure]

Romeo and Juliet is online verbatim at several sites.

Here's a nice one, scene by scene, with line numbers:

http://pd.sparknotes.com/shakespeare/romeojuliet/index.html

=====
Here's a scene by scene _with search facilities_

http://www.clicknotes.com/romeo/Search.html

=======
At this one, it's on a single webpage that can be saved to a Word (.doc) file. Incredible. (no numbers)

http://www-tech.mit.edu/Shakespeare/Tragedy/romeoandjuliet/full.html