Jian Gomeshi's BDSM firing, what do you think?

[Keroin]

For Canucks on this board, I won't have to explain who Jian Gomeshi is or what happened yesterday, so you can skip the next bit.

For the rest...

Jian Gomeshi was the much-loved host of CBC radio's show Q. Kind of a cultural icon in Canada. Yesterday he was fired from CBC and it turned out the reason is because of "sexual behavior was unbecoming of a prominent host". The behaviour in question, according to Gomeshi, was fully consensual BDSM. He wrote a very forthright Facebook post about it following the firing.

Gomeshi is suing the CBC and if everything is true he should. But things get tricky because the woman in question is claiming the rough sex was non-consensual.

As you can image, this is sparking a lot of heated conversation.

Here's what Gomeshi posted. Curious what folks here have to say about it.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2014/10/27/the-full-text-of-jian-ghomeshis-facebook-post-responding-to-being-fired-by-the-cbc/

 

[intothewoods]

Is it a BDSM firing (his story) or was he fired because of alleged sexual assault?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/10/26/cbc_fires_jian_ghomeshi_over_sex_allegations.html

It seems like he might have thought BDSM was a good cover...

 

[CutieMouse]

Is it a BDSM firing (his story) or was he fired because of alleged sexual assault?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/10/26/cbc_fires_jian_ghomeshi_over_sex_allegations.html

It seems like he might have thought BDSM was a good cover...

I read Keroin's article & the article ITW posted, plus reader comments. At this point, it feels (to me) like a very he said/ she said jilted lover thing... or maybe I've known enough people who've had things end poorly, that it's clouding my judgement.

The more interesting thing (to me) was in the reader comments in the article Keroin posted - the guy's FaceBook posting. I'm still digesting my thoughts on that.

 

[Keroin]

Is it a BDSM firing (his story) or was he fired because of alleged sexual assault?

http://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2014/10/26/cbc_fires_jian_ghomeshi_over_sex_allegations.html

It seems like he might have thought BDSM was a good cover...

I know, right?

Part of me just doesn't want to believe it can be true because I like Gomeshi's radio personality and I like BDSM. The other part of me knows how easy it is for men in power to spin stories and turn public opinion against their victims.

Another article from a kink POV: http://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2014/10/27/poor-persecuted-pervert/

 

[Keroin]

And I can't help thinking that there are probably people on this board whose careers and lives could be easily ruined if an angry partner decided to frame their BDSM proclivities in a different light.

 

[Aphro]

None of the women pressed charges, and none of them would go on record with the Toronto Star. That, in and of itself, makes me question their cred. So yeah, I kind of think it's a case of the woman scorned, but, time will tell and I am sure more will come to light over the next few days. From my reading, it would seem he had the reputation of being a "creepy date" in the Toronto entertainment and journalistic community of young, up and coming women.

He said in his relationship with this woman, they referred to their situation as a "Lite" version of 50 Shades. Maybe Jian needed to take a page out of Christian Grey's book and get his partners to sign a waiver first.

Still, the fact he was fired over what are still unsubstantiated allegations is pretty disturbing. No charges, no arrest, I sure hope the CBC has a bit more to go on that some text messages and off the record interviews with some bitter women.

 

[intothewoods]

I know, right?

Part of me just doesn't want to believe it can be true because I like Gomeshi's radio personality and I like BDSM. The other part of me knows how easy it is for men in power to spin stories and turn public opinion against their victims.

Another article from a kink POV: http://sexgeek.wordpress.com/2014/10/27/poor-persecuted-pervert/

That's a good piece. I never listened to his show so my opinion is based solely on what I've read post-scandal.

None of the women pressed charges, and none of them would go on record with the Toronto Star. That, in and of itself, makes me question their cred. So yeah, I kind of think it's a case of the woman scorned, but, time will tell and I am sure more will come to light over the next few days. From my reading, it would seem he had the reputation of being a "creepy date" in the Toronto entertainment and journalistic community of young, up and coming women.

He said in his relationship with this woman, they referred to their situation as a "Lite" version of 50 Shades. Maybe Jian needed to take a page out of Christian Grey's book and get his partners to sign a waiver first.

Still, the fact he was fired over what are still unsubstantiated allegations is pretty disturbing. No charges, no arrest, I sure hope the CBC has a bit more to go on that some text messages and off the record interviews with some bitter women.

These women didn't want to go to the police because they HAD discussed kink with him (other than the employee) and worried he would use that as a cover. It's one thing if it's one woman - but four?

 

[Netzach]

I'm thinking there are two sides to this, and the BDSM community should probably be very selective about its poster children for sexual expression.

I don't think willingness to press charges at the time are the gold standard of whether someone's been abused or not or hit or not. He sounds like a fucker.

I also think that yeah, we do put ourselves in legally vulnerable positions, and that when you decide to be expressive all over the place you probably should consider what you have to lose. A person does have to choose between public perversion and certain careers, and anything pervy outside the most rock solid and tested of confidence relationships means you're opening yourself up. If you're in the public eye like that, guess what, you won't be forever and you should probably just masturbate to the dubious consent stories on Lit for 2 or 3 years rather than trying to re-create them with some girl you dated for a month.

That is hardly pre-stonewall persecution. Please.

I also think that clearly a lot of people have work boundaries issues, especially younger people. He doesn't exactly make a great case for himself as being outed in some way if he informs people he works with that he wants to hatefuck them. Alleged? Sure. Likely? You fucking bet.

Would we believe the woman if this were in the geek thread?

I'm going with "I believe the woman." Well maybe not the woman, but I believe the four OTHER women. Till I have good reason not to.

 

[desertslave]

I know, right?

Part of me just doesn't want to believe it can be true because I like Gomeshi's radio personality and I like BDSM. The other part of me knows how easy it is for men in power to spin stories and turn public opinion against their victims.

And as true as that viewpoint might be, it's equally true that there are plenty of women who would readily turn nothing more than a 'jilted lover' into something nasty to have their twisted revenge.

Plenty of nasty on both sides to go around.

 

[IrisAlthea]

No way to know how much consent there really was, but if what he writes in his facebook post is true, he wasn't fired because of non-consent but because of kink.
Sad but not unexpected.

I would never fault anyone for not pressing charges or going to HR, if they feel they have been wronged but I do wonder about the decision to go to the media/internet circus instead.

 

[KoPilot]

My knee-jerk was to believe him too, which pisses me off. I had the same reaction to Assange and I took a real hard look at myself about that. Of course it's hard to accept that the people we like and admire can in fact be shitlords. I learned that the hard way about Polanski too.

Men in power sometimes get off on their own station and push boundaries because it's part of the circle-jerk. Is this really that hard to accept, or...???

I'm going to believe the women because rape and assault is a graver circumstance than losing one's job. And it doesn't really sound like this guy is going to have a hard time finding new and cozy employment, seeing as how many people would still lick his shoes clean.

 

[Stella_Omega]

I'm thinking there are two sides to this, and the BDSM community should probably be very selective about its poster children for sexual expression.

I don't think willingness to press charges at the time are the gold standard of whether someone's been abused or not or hit or not. He sounds like a fucker.

I also think that yeah, we do put ourselves in legally vulnerable positions, and that when you decide to be expressive all over the place you probably should consider what you have to lose. A person does have to choose between public perversion and certain careers, and anything pervy outside the most rock solid and tested of confidence relationships means you're opening yourself up. If you're in the public eye like that, guess what, you won't be forever and you should probably just masturbate to the dubious consent stories on Lit for 2 or 3 years rather than trying to re-create them with some girl you dated for a month.

That is hardly pre-stonewall persecution. Please.

I also think that clearly a lot of people have work boundaries issues, especially younger people. He doesn't exactly make a great case for himself as being outed in some way if he informs people he works with that he wants to hatefuck them. Alleged? Sure. Likely? You fucking bet.

Would we believe the woman if this were in the geek thread?

I'm going with "I believe the woman." Well maybe not the woman, but I believe the four OTHER women. Till I have good reason not to.

This. All of this. I'm not going to believe that he's guilty or not guilty. I'm going to believe that four or five women may have reason to say that he is. There's a distinction there.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I don't think willingness to press charges at the time are the gold standard of whether someone's been abused or not or hit or not. He sounds like a fucker.

This. Depending on when, where, and which source you go by, somewhere around 80% of sexual assaults are never reported to police. This Time article covers some of the reasons. Others include fear of retribution from the perp/their friends/fans (ESPECIALLY true if the perp is a well-known figure), or not having enough evidence to secure a conviction (major issue in cases where the question is about consent).

And as true as that viewpoint might be, it's equally true that there are plenty of women who would readily turn nothing more than a 'jilted lover' into something nasty to have their twisted revenge.

Plenty of nasty on both sides to go around.

Is it really equally true?

The spectre of "manipulative woman makes false rape allegation as a way to get revenge on a guy" gets a lot of airplay, it's a plot element in a big movie currently screening, but evidence for it happening IRL is thin on the ground; best estimates seem to be that about 2% of rape allegations reported to the police are false, around the same rate of false reporting as for other violent crimes.

I don't think false allegations are entirely a myth, but all the research suggests that they're a very small part of the story. Making allegations, especially against a public figure, can easily be harmful to the alleged victim; they can expect to have every aspect of their private lives put under the spotlight and even if their allegation upheld, they can end up being seen as the trollop who wrecked some guy's promising career.

My knee-jerk was to believe him too, which pisses me off. I had the same reaction to Assange and I took a real hard look at myself about that. Of course it's hard to accept that the people we like and admire can in fact be shitlords. I learned that the hard way about Polanski too.

Yeah, Polanski is evidence that you can publicly admit to drugging and raping a 13-year-old girl and STILL come out of it with more celebrity support than the victim. Depressing to see how few big names are on this list.

I know a couple of people who were part of Assange's social circle long before he was famous. From the stories they tell, he was an extremely controlling person with problematic attitudes to women in particular - we're talking "break into his ex's house, smash her things, phone in false child-porn allegations against her new boyfriend" sort of behaviour. I have no way to verify those stories for myself, but nor do I have any particular reason to doubt them. Just because the US political establishment wants to destroy you doesn't mean you're a good guy.

It also creeps me out to see his supporters arguing that even if the Swedish allegations are true, that he had bareback sex with a woman who'd only consented to sex conditional on him wearing a condom, that it wouldn't be rape.

And Polanski is evidence that you can publicly confess to drugging and raping a thirteen-year-old girl, skip bail, and STILL be supported by a truckload of celebs. One of the most depressing parts of the 2009 business was seeing that his victim now wants the DoJ to let it go, because she's tired of her rape being part of the media cycle.

I look at that stuff and think - really, if I was a vengeful woman looking to ruin a guy's life, why would I go with a tactic that could easily be just as harmful to me as to him?

 

[KoPilot]

Yeah. There's a ton if stuff with a much higher success rate out there to do instead.

 

[desertslave]

Is it really equally true?

The spectre of "manipulative woman makes false rape allegation as a way to get revenge on a guy" gets a lot of airplay, it's a plot element in a big movie currently screening, but evidence for it happening IRL is thin on the ground; best estimates seem to be that about 2% of rape allegations reported to the police are false, around the same rate of false reporting as for other violent crimes.

I don't think false allegations are entirely a myth, but all the research suggests that they're a very small part of the story. Making allegations, especially against a public figure, can easily be harmful to the alleged victim; they can expect to have every aspect of their private lives put under the spotlight and even if their allegation upheld, they can end up being seen as the trollop who wrecked some guy's promising career.

I'm thinking of a case in the US that was resolved just a few years ago. Teen sweethearts had sex, her father caught them in some compromising situation, she cried rape and the boy went to prison for TEN YEARS before she finally recanted. TEN YEARS!

I'm female, but having seen other members of my gender do significantly less than decent and noble things in similar ways more than a handful of times, I tend to be cynical when it comes to less-than-obvious situations. I truly do think there are equally nasty people of both genders. When celebrity is involved, it just gets worse.

 

[KoPilot]

I was talking to the hubs about this last night and he made a good point in that the CBC must have seen something about the case that was pretty incriminating because letting him go was dropping a cash cow for them, especially since he's syndicated in the US. He says the CBC is pretty darn accepting of their personalities' personal lives and affairs and a rather liberal institution. Anyways he seemed to think that he must have actually done something to merit the treatment from them.

 

[Keroin]

Many things upset me about this story, not the least of which is that I initially fell for Gomeshi's "explanation" and didn't see it for the carefully crafted spin that it is. I thought I was immune to that manipulation--I've worked intimately with enough celebrities to know how wildly their onscreen/on-air personas can deviate from their real personalities.

But...

He was a CBC radio host and I love CBC radio.

But...

He was of my generation, listened to the music I grew up with, loved the things I loved--in a Canadian context.

But...

He was young and hip and not some creepy old white dude.

But...

Of course normal people don't "get" BDSM. Of course they assumed the worst and it had to be a massive misunderstanding. Don't we frequently warn PYL's on this board about how easily their actions can be misinterpreted?

But...no. To believe what Gomeshi says, especially in light of the new information that was revealed, is to go against everything I know about sexual assault and harassment and to turn my back on feminism.

This is a good piece about the whole mess: http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2014/10/28/the-q-continuum-thoughts-on-the-intimate-impact-of-jian-ghomeshi/

 

[desertslave]

This is a good piece about the whole mess: http://blogs.edmontonjournal.com/2014/10/28/the-q-continuum-thoughts-on-the-intimate-impact-of-jian-ghomeshi/

Very prosaic piece, but not especially informative.

I've read as much as I can find on the story, now (I'd never heard of the guy before this thread was started) and it still sounds more like 'he said/she said' after a breakup than anything else. The perils of celebrity.

 

[Keroin]

Very prosaic piece, but not especially informative.

No, not informative but very much the head space I think a lot of Canadian listeners are in. Funny thing is about an hour before the news broke, I was sitting with some of my author friends discussing one of the gang's latest manuscripts and how fantastic it is. We joked that we couldn't wait to hear Jian Gomeshi interview her. He did so much for CanLit.

I've read as much as I can find on the story, now (I'd never heard of the guy before this thread was started) and it still sounds more like 'he said/she said' after a breakup than anything else. The perils of celebrity.

That was my initial reaction but the fact that there are four other women claiming non-consensual physical abuse, one woman who was a co-worker who complained to her union rep about harassment, and a Facebook post from one of Gomeshi's friends talking about how the host's reputation as a "creepy date" was kind of an in-joke among those who knew him...

Coupled with the fact that, really, the "crying rape" as revenge thing is mostly a myth...

Yeah.

 

[desertslave]

My sticking point is claiming non-con for two years and not coming forward until he ended the relationship with her. It just doesn't parse to me.

 

[Netzach]

My sticking point is claiming non-con for two years and not coming forward until he ended the relationship with her. It just doesn't parse to me.

Are you remotely plugged into what happens to women on the internet who do media critique let alone "come forward"

If you're in media "well don't put your personal information out there" is a pipe dream.

The death threats are probably 24/7 already. Why would you open yourself up to that prematurely? Boredom? Life too simple?

"Why didn't she come forward" is a new kind of re-abuse in the climate of today. If entire towns freaking dogpile onto underage victims with videotaped proof as sluts and whores, why would ANYONE come forward ever?

 

[desertslave]

Are you remotely plugged into what happens to women on the internet who do media critique let alone "come forward"

If you're in media "well don't put your personal information out there" is a pipe dream.

The death threats are probably 24/7 already. Why would you open yourself up to that prematurely? Boredom? Life too simple?

"Why didn't she come forward" is a new kind of re-abuse in the climate of today. If entire towns freaking dogpile onto underage victims with videotaped proof as sluts and whores, why would ANYONE come forward ever?

My point was more about her remaining in a relationship that she clams was continuously abusive and non-con for that two years, not about her coming forward.

 

[KoPilot]

My point was more about her remaining in a relationship that she clams was continuously abusive and non-con for that two years, not about her coming forward.

My mom's continuously abusive relationship lasted for probably 4 years. I hope having lived under that roof as a youngster makes me a reliable enough source here.

Staying silent in that kind of situation is more common than not. I can't believe that this isn't common knowledge still.

--

I was talking about it with hubs some more and he said that he was about 2 degrees of separation away from this Gomeshi guy and that all of his sources say that he was a complete dick in his personal relationships.

 

[Stella_Omega]

My sticking point is claiming non-con for two years and not coming forward until he ended the relationship with her. It just doesn't parse to me.

ouch, I hate hearing people say this.

There is SO MUCH literature out there on the subject.

 

[wicked woman]

No, not informative but very much the head space I think a lot of Canadian listeners are in. Funny thing is about an hour before the news broke, I was sitting with some of my author friends discussing one of the gang's latest manuscripts and how fantastic it is. We joked that we couldn't wait to hear Jian Gomeshi interview her. He did so much for CanLit.



That was my initial reaction but the fact that there are four other women claiming non-consensual physical abuse, one woman who was a co-worker who complained to her union rep about harassment, and a Facebook post from one of Gomeshi's friends talking about how the host's reputation as a "creepy date" was kind of an in-joke among those who knew him...

Coupled with the fact that, really, the "crying rape" as revenge thing is mostly a myth...

Yeah.

You weren't alone in both your initial reaction and the change based on more information. A number of us got caught by his FB post.