2009 Survivor Literotica: Planning & Plotting

[Selena_Kitt]

The combined effect of awarding everybody 7 immunities from the get go, eliminating bonuses, and giving 1 point to any and all stories, would result on everybody immediately discarding 7 categories with no consequences, which is the opposite of what Survivor is about.

But isn't that what folks use immunities for anyway? To disregard categories?

 

[Lauren Hynde]

But isn't that what folks use immunities for anyway? To disregard categories?

Technically, yes. But you don't know from the start that you will win any of them.

Are you suggesting to get rid of immunities altogether?

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Technically, yes. But you don't know from the start that you will win any of them.

Are you suggesting to get rid of immunities altogether?

Nah... but I do like the idea of everyone having an equal playing field. It's not a bad idea, really, to give everyone a few right at the outset to use whatever way they wish - or not. I think seven is a lot. Maybe three or four or five?

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Technically, yes. But you don't know from the start that you will win any of them.

Are you suggesting to get rid of immunities altogether?

I like the use of the lottery immunity. It makes that part a game of chance, and there's always a possibility you won't get as many as you wish, which might force you to spread your wings and write in a category you aren't comfortable with.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

I like the use of the lottery immunity. It makes that part a game of chance, and there's always a possibility you won't get as many as you wish, which might force you to spread your wings and write in a category you aren't comfortable with.

That's my sentiment too.

 

[scouries]

LAUREN I considered your suggestions. An author submits 3 stories: if they're all in the same category, he/she gets 5 points; if they're all in different categories, he/she gets 9. That's why the first story in each category is worth 3 points, and that's the reason for the bonuses. To encourage writing in more categories.

Yes you’re quite right in the very limited case you gave. However, using a total of 3 submitted stories as an example is so simplistic that it’s not mathematically significant or useful. In seconds I could devise scenarios that proved the opposite (while reflecting the reality of the contest much better)

As to my original suggestion: I proposed that an author had to enter a story in every category before submitting a second in any category. Which means that in fact the contestant would be forced to write in more categories (which is your stated purpose), not less.

Even with your proposed 2009 “3- submission cap” system of scoring, anyone who either seriously wants to win is going to be forced to write in more categories, not less.

To test any proposed new scoring system the best technique to evaluate it would be to run the top twenty or so contestants in a past years contest under it and see what happens.

And then ask yourself when you see the results:

-Is this new system giving fairer results?
-Would it encourage contestants to write in more categories? (one of the stated purposes)
-Are authors motivated to produce more works? (another of the stated purposes)
-Is it an easier system for the authors to understand?
-Would it be easier to maintain an up to date scoreboard?
-Would it reduce all the complaints and back biting?

All I’ll add on this subject is that I thumbed through ten or so 2008 scorecards this morning and they’re almost incomprehensible to read or understand, and impossible to easily compare with others. Any changes you enact for 2009 should address this problem as a priority.


LAUREN The combined effect of awarding everybody 7 immunities from the get go, eliminating bonuses, and giving 1 point to any and all stories, would result on everybody immediately discarding 7 categories with no consequences, which is the opposite of what Survivor is about.

Nonsense! Absolute bunk! As I understand it, that’s exactly what the immunities are used for now. To discard categories authors don’t like. That’s why they were created in the first place. To allow writers to collect bonuses they hadn’t earned by their writing. Why else do we have them? Don’t you dare insinuate that my proposal would exacerbate this problem.

My original suggestion was to eliminate them completely so that authors would have to write in every category. I still believe that would be the best course of action.

My later suggestion (to simply award seven automatically) was only made when you showed no inclination to eliminate them and was intended to give everyone an even playing field while saving you moderator people a lot time and needless effort. The number seven came from you when you mentioned this was the average number writers could expect to get. 0, 1, 3, 5 or 7 – the number doesn’t matter to me.

I still don’t understand why you would award points for stories not written. Let authors use these free passes to move to the next level if you must but don’t give them any points for them.

You might ask yourself how many of our SURVIVOR contestants have actually written a story in every category over the past five years. My guess is that they are few and far between. I could only find 2 in 2007 and one was our friend MUNGO. The winner in 2006 also wrote in every category.

I guarantee that eliminating these “free passes” would result in many more contestants actually completing the task of writing a story in every category. Which to me is the main challenge and fun part of the contest.

I’m james r scouries, and the above is my opinion…

[size=+2]we Dolphins agree…[/size]

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

All I’ll add on this subject is that I thumbed through ten or so 2008 scorecards this morning and they’re almost incomprehensible to read or understand, and impossible to easily compare with others. Any changes you enact for 2009 should address this problem as a priority.

I've seen all of the scorecards and haven't found one that is incomprehensible.

You might ask yourself how many of our SURVIVOR contestants have actually written a story in every category over the past five years. My guess is that they are few and far between. I could only find 2 in 2007 and one was our friend MUNGO. The winner in 2006 also wrote in every category.

I have.

 

[fieryjen]

I don't know, maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea. As long as only the first chapter of the series counts for points, and as long as the entire series is closed before the end of the year. It could work.

This would also eliminate the problem of having an author submit a story, enter it into the contest, and because readers ask for a continuation, he writes a second part, "Chapter 2", and possibly more chapters after that. So would that, under the current rules, disqualify the first entry because he wrote more to the story, or would it slip by because it isn't titled "Chapter 1"? Neither of them really seem fair to me, so I'm of the opinion that we need a rule about allowing the first chapter of a closed series, or just give one point to the series as a whole, which seems like the same thing to me - and that way it would eliminate the need to make yet another exception to the chapter rule.

I'm not good with wording these kinds of things, but just to show the sort of rule I was envisioning -

"It is permissible to submit finished, standalone stories in multiple installments or chapters, however, the story will still be treated as one single story and is eligible for points only once. Single chapters or unfinished stories are not eligible for points."

There's still a decision to be made about what happens if the author or the site decides to send chapters to different categories. I'd go with where the majority of chapters are, not with the first chapter - sometimes the first chapter of a story may be non-erotic because the sex happens later, but another category might fit the entire work much better.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for considering.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

I think if we allow the completed series to count for points, then all chapters should be in the same category. I don't think it's right to have one chapter in Non-erotic and it count for points there when the entire series is not non-erotic.

Personally I think we should stick to the no chapters except for Novels and Novellas/chain stories rule and leave it at that. I think if we start making allowances such as what is being discussed, it kind of defeats the purpose of the no-chapters rule. Just my 2 cents.

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

Just my 2 cents...

Either you have a rule or you don't.

Either you accept multi-chapter stories regardless of who asks for a continuation or where each categories chapters are posted or you don't accept multi-chapter stories.

One complete story posted to one category makes sense to me and is hoiw I understood the proposed rule change. Now, to go back and forth about writing a sequel and calling it chapter 2 and possibly posting it to another category smells too much like a multi-chapter story to me.

I really don't care if you allow multi-chapter stories or don't allow multi-chapter stories, but this back and forth nitpicking is starting to look like a tennis match and I'm getting dizzy trying to keep track of suggestions for rule changes.

I think I'll just sit this one out and wait for the official rules are published to turn over to my battery of lawyers to dissect them for me to understand. This is really getting complicated. It's starting to look like a Congressisnal budget bill.

I think Scouries had some good suggestions to simplify the process. We're all writers here, not lawyers. We just want to write and not get bogged down reading rules, rereading rules, remembering rules, and adhering to rules. I just want to write a story. I have enough things to worry about than contest rules.

However, I do appreciate the effort of the moderators helping us to keep everything straight. We wouldn't have a contest without moderators. Thank God for moderatores. You're doing a good job. All of you and I'm proud of you. (Loud clapping, cheering, and whistling).

Go ahead take a bow. You all deserve it. Great job. Way to go. Congratulations.

(Maybe someone will start a thread on the forum boards listing all my compliments to the moderators to share with all my hundreds of forum buddies, er, dozens of forum buddies, er one forum buddy...me.)

 

[fieryjen]

I think if we allow the completed series to count for points, then all chapters should be in the same category. I don't think it's right to have one chapter in Non-erotic and it count for points there when the entire series is not non-erotic.

Personally I think we should stick to the no chapters except for Novels and Novellas/chain stories rule and leave it at that. I think if we start making allowances such as what is being discussed, it kind of defeats the purpose of the no-chapters rule. Just my 2 cents.

So what would be the solution to the scenario described in my above post? I'm just asking because I'd like to see all the kinks worked out now and not halfway through the contest when a rule is suddenly less airtight than it seemed at first.

Personally, I'd like to see something of the sort implemented because I like to post my longer stories in chapters for several reasons and I wouldn't like to be forced to submit everything at once just to get points for it. I won't throw a fit if you two decide not to do so, but I'm just trying to explain my point.

 

[CharleyH]

Just my 2 cents...

Either you have a rule or you don't.

Either you accept multi-chapter stories regardless of who asks for a continuation or where each categories chapters are posted or you don't accept multi-chapter stories.

One complete story posted to one category makes sense to me and is hoiw I understood the proposed rule change. Now, to go back and forth about writing a sequel and calling it chapter 2 and possibly posting it to another category smells too much like a multi-chapter story to me.

I really don't care if you allow multi-chapter stories or don't allow multi-chapter stories, but this back and forth nitpicking is starting to look like a tennis match and I'm getting dizzy trying to keep track of suggestions for rule changes.

I think I'll just sit this one out and wait for the official rules are published to turn over to my battery of lawyers to dissect them for me to understand. This is really getting complicated. It's starting to look like a Congressisnal budget bill.

I think Scouries had some good suggestions to simplify the process. We're all writers here, not lawyers. We just want to write and not get bogged down reading rules, rereading rules, remembering rules, and adhering to rules. I just want to write a story. I have enough things to worry about than contest rules.

However, I do appreciate the effort of the moderators helping us to keep everything straight. We wouldn't have a contest without moderators. Thank God for moderatores. You're doing a good job. All of you and I'm proud of you. (Loud clapping, cheering, and whistling).

Go ahead take a bow. You all deserve it. Great job. Way to go. Congratulations.

(Maybe someone will start a thread on the forum boards listing all my compliments to the moderators to share with all my hundreds of forum buddies, er, dozens of forum buddies, er one forum buddy...me.)

Oh, you again.

 

[starrkers]

Personally I think we should stick to the no chapters except for Novels and Novellas/chain stories rule and leave it at that. I think if we start making allowances such as what is being discussed, it kind of defeats the purpose of the no-chapters rule. Just my 2 cents.

Just my 2 cents...

Either you have a rule or you don't.

Either you accept multi-chapter stories regardless of who asks for a continuation or where each categories chapters are posted or you don't accept multi-chapter stories.

One complete story posted to one category makes sense to me and is hoiw I understood the proposed rule change. Now, to go back and forth about writing a sequel and calling it chapter 2 and possibly posting it to another category smells too much like a multi-chapter story to me.

I agree with these sentiments.

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

So what would be the solution to the scenario described in my above post? I'm just asking because I'd like to see all the kinks worked out now and not halfway through the contest when a rule is suddenly less airtight than it seemed at first.

Personally, I'd like to see something of the sort implemented because I like to post my longer stories in chapters for several reasons and I wouldn't like to be forced to submit everything at once just to get points for it. I won't throw a fit if you two decide not to do so, but I'm just trying to explain my point.

Well, that's what we have to decide. I think part of the purpose behind banning the multi-chaptered stories in the first place was to get the contest back to the spirit of writing original stories for each category and to stop the chopping up of longer stories into smaller chapters just to get points.

I still say the proposed rule should stand as is... however, if it's amended to allow complete series to count for one point in one category, then I feel all chapters should be in the same category and not spanning several. If they span several, they belong in Novels/Novellas because that's the purpose of that category... for stories that encompass more than one of the existing categories.

 

[starrkers]

My feeling is that longer, chaptered works should be in Novels only.

Anything involving completed chaptered works is going to be open to interpretation - how do you prove a work is complete? - and argument and abuse of the rule.

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

Well, that's what we have to decide. I think part of the purpose behind banning the multi-chaptered stories in the first place was to get the contest back to the spirit of writing original stories for each category and to stop the chopping up of longer stories into smaller chapters just to get points.

I still say the proposed rule should stand as is... however, if it's amended to allow complete series to count for one point in one category, then I feel all chapters should be in the same category and not spanning several. If they span several, they belong in Novels/Novellas because that's the purpose of that category... for stories that encompass more than one of the existing categories.

Of course, I take exception to your comment "chopping up of longer stories into smaller chapters just to get points."

I didn't chop up my longer stories into chapters just to get points. I wrote chapters of stories to score points. There's a difference. Each stand alone chapter was a story in itself with a beginning, a middle, and an ending which led, of course, to the next stand alone chapter that had a beginning, a middle, and an ending.

Perhaps, had I written 750-1,000 word complete snippets of stories, you'd make a similar comment about that, too. Maybe, it was just who wrote the chapters and not the chapters themselves.

For some inexplicable reason my 2,000-4,000 multi-chapter stories are deemed not as good as someone else's abbreviated 750-1,000 word stories. This to me smells of favoritism.

I feel that I did nothing wrong, just as a writer who wrote 750-1,000 word stories did nothing wrong. Yet, there are always comments about multi-chapter stories, key word chapter, and not chopping with no comments about 750-1,000 word stories.

I've suggested the word count for the Survivor Contest be increased from 750 to 1,500, but that was a suggestion not deemed appropriate. Instead you are eager to adopt a rule change banning multi-chapter stories.

As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather read a multi-chapter story that is broken into stand alone chapters with a beginning, a middle, and an endind and not chopped up into pieces as you suggest than reading three hundred 750-1,000 words stories that were just written "to score points" and that lack a plot and character development.

Ah, if the shoe was on the other foot and if I was the one writing 750-1,000 word stories and if another writer was writing multi-chapter stories, we'd be banning 750-1,000 word stories and increasing the minimum to 1,500 hundred instead of banning multi-chapter stories.

I get it now.

 

[michchick98]

Of course, I take exception to your comment "chopping up of longer stories into smaller chapters just to get points."

Jesus, Freddie. Do you think you're the only one in this year's contest who's submitted multi-chapter stories?

Everything isn't always all about you, but you'll never see it that way.

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[Selena_Kitt]

I dunno, I just feel like we should allow chapters or not. Anything in between seems to make it way too complicated!

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

Jesus, Freddie. Do you think you're the only one in this year's contest who's submitted multi-chapter stories?

Everything isn't always all about you, but you'll never see it that way.

Amen!

 

[CrimsonMaiden]

You're right. It's not all about him, it's all about me

I haven't carefully read the comments about the current topic but I wonder if all the stories you write during the year "have" to count for points. I mean why not have the first chapter of a story count and then anything else you write for that specific story would not count for points.

That way as a writer you would still be challenging yourself to write in that category but at the same time not loading up a long chapter story just to "fill" that category.

If we are going to continue to comment on the purpose of the Survivor contest - to challenge author's to write stories in many categories, if you are able to write a ten, or twenty, or forty chapter story in one category it's probably not much of a challenge for you.

Anyways...

No, you don't have to count everything you submit for points. Only what is on your scorecard counts as points. However, under the proposed rule changed, not even chapter one would be eligible for points (and yes, we'll check to see if someone is trying to slip it by and not put ch. 1 in the title.)

 

[fieryjen]

No, you don't have to count everything you submit for points. Only what is on your scorecard counts as points. However, under the proposed rule changed, not even chapter one would be eligible for points (and yes, we'll check to see if someone is trying to slip it by and not put ch. 1 in the title.)

The problem I see with that is that it would actually discourage an author from writing more on something even though they are inspired and it might have been requested by readers, because posting a chapter 2 would take away the points they got for a previously standalone story. The new no-chapter rule makes sense to me as a measure to prevent making points off having as many chapters as possible, but I don't think taking away points for having a chapter 2+ is in any way encouraging.

 

[starrkers]

If it's a stand alone story it shouldn't need any addition.

If you want to write more about the same characters in a separate stand alone story, that's allowed.

 

[BOSTONFICTIONWRITER]

...and my point is that if I wanted to make as many points as possible, if my mission was to make the most points, then I would have written one thousand 750 word stories, instead of writing novels that are broken into chapters and instead of posting more than three hundred 2,000-4,000 complete and stand alone stories.

I don't understand why the need for the rule change in disallowing multi-chapter stories.

Maybe if I had said that I wanted you to disallow multi-chapter stories, then you'd allow them.

"I think that you should not allow multi-chapter stories in the 2009 Survivor Contest. Moreover, I think you should make a rule that all stories must be no less and no more than 750 words. Now, that would make it challenging in a puzzle sort of way."'

Yeah, those 750 word stories are the best way to go. I mean, if a writer can't tell a complete story in 750 words, then he or she shouldn't be writing. Now, that I think of it, many of my posts to this board are more than 750 words. I should make some of them stories. I just have to put quotation marks and character's names.

"Freddie, do you think that multi-chapter stories should be banned in the 2009 Survivor?"

"Yes, I do Freddie."

"Then, what about the 750 word minimum limit for stories entered in the Survivor Contest? Would you suggest raising the limit to say 1,500 words?"

"God no, Freddie. If you can't develop characters and tell a complete story with plot and the proper amount of suspense and tension, then you shouldn't be writing for the Survivor Contest. Writing any story longer than 750 words is rambling, much like his post."

I suggest we change the name of the 2009 Survivor Contest to the 2009 Seven Hundred and Fifty Word Contest. What do you think?

 

[Darkniciad]

If the original story is self-contained, and simply spawns a continuation, then the solution is not to make it Chapter 02 of a longer story, but another self-contained story starring the same characters.

Sort of what I did with Steward of the Wood and Daughter of the Wood. Both contain the same characters, adding new characters in Daughter. They occur in a timeline, but each has its own beginning, conflict, and ending. Same will go for the third story in the series, whenever I get around to writing it.

Makes it a little harder for readers to track down the stories in sequence, but if you want them to count for points under the new rule, that's what you'll have to do. You can always submit an edit to the first story, adding an end note to it mentioning the title of the upcoming story, to eliminate any difficulty in finding the new tale in the series.

( The post concerning the series listing feature going live mentioned that future plans included the ability to organize your own series listing, which would eliminate this problem if it comes to light )

My Nobles by Deed series is another good example. There's absolutely nothing tying them together in the titles, but they're all part of a larger storyline I'm slowly building. I'm dropping a timeline in the end-notes of the stories as I submit them now.

Which reminds me that I forgot to do so with the re-edit of Blackhawk Hall I submitted about an hour ago... Dammit...

Once you start making any allowances for anything with chapter listings, then it's going to cause confusion. That's exactly why I eliminated the "Ep. 09" from my LST3K in the Winter Holiday Contest. That's a series listing, but I didn't want anyone to use that as an excuse to complain about a chaptered story and try to bend the new rule for themed contests. In essence, I'm a character in that series, and the only thing tying them together.