A hair raising question

[callinectes2]

Oh, he is screaming. He will still be screaming if/when he has to shutter his stores due to boycotts. The the oil may still be flowing and the corporate big wigs will still have their jobs but a hard working guy who built his business from scratch and didn't have shit to do with this will lose his livelihood. Sorry, I just can't get behind it.

 

[JMohegan]

Oh, he is screaming. He will still be screaming if/when he has to shutter his stores due to boycotts. The the oil may still be flowing and the corporate big wigs will still have their jobs but a hard working guy who built his business from scratch and didn't have shit to do with this will lose his livelihood. Sorry, I just can't get behind it.

Did you read the link I posted? If so, your definition of "scratch" and mine are clearly quite different.

I'm sure he is hard working, though, yes.

By the way, callinectes, if you check out the link I posted, you'll see a Monthly Royalty section. They don't disclose the percentage, but the existence of an ongoing royalty indicates that boycotting BP stores does, in fact, hit BP's bottom line.

You're right, of course, that the big wigs will still have fat bank accounts when this is all over. But even if your dream of making them "pay fines out of the ass!" comes true, that will still hit relatively innocent people who had no direct part in this.

Pension plans, IRAs, mutual fund shareholders. That's who gets hit when the corporate bottom line gets cut. And if the expenses of cleanup and fines are big enough, there could be BP lower level layoffs. Hell, the federally imposed freeze on drilling is already hitting employment along the Coast.

I use the phrase "relatively innocent," because if you climb into bed with the devil - whether by taking a job, or investing in a franchise, or purchasing stock - well, "relative" is the best that I've got.

 

[Netzach]

This all occurred to me and M as we opted for superamerica this weekend. That it's not the franchises' fault, it's a small local business - This was prior to any massive boycott meme, it was just what felt right at the time. I don't think these people cut a deal with the devil and I feel bad for them, however not one red cent of mine will go to these criminal dickheads, who just dumped a ton of oil off Australia with the same negligence not a few months before.

We're serious BP station fans, too, up till this point.

Non Saudi oil and generally better gas, what wasn't to like?

However, I can't bring myself to do it, because it DOES send a message, and nothing else *really* does.

People like your friend are casualties of the fuckup, like the people who depend on the gulf. If the under-regulated corner cutting criminality hadn't happened, I'd be shopping BP.

 

[BiBunny]

This all occurred to me and M as we opted for superamerica this weekend. That it's not the franchises' fault, it's a small local business - This was prior to any massive boycott meme, it was just what felt right at the time. I don't think these people cut a deal with the devil and I feel bad for them, however not one red cent of mine will go to these criminal dickheads, who just dumped a ton of oil off Australia with the same negligence not a few months before.

We're serious BP station fans, too, up till this point.

Non Saudi oil and generally better gas, what wasn't to like?

However, I can't bring myself to do it, because it DOES send a message, and nothing else *really* does.

People like your friend are casualties of the fuckup, like the people who depend on the gulf.

Yep. BP oughta have to reimburse everyone in this damn country for the losses of this massive fuckup--from shrimp fishermen to people in the tourism industry to the convenience store guys--since this is hardly the first time they've shown complete disregard for safety. It ain't gonna happen, though.

 

[Keroin]

I don't agree with dumping trash on BP property because guess who will be cleaning that up? The poor schmuck making minimum wage, who probably just scrapes by from paycheque to paycheque, much like lots of people on this board. The "proles" as Netz might call them.

I'm angry, sure, but if boycotting BP stations isn't going to hurt the people it needs to hurt then I question that action too.

And I am all for taking action - I doubt many people on this board feel as passionately about the ocean as I do - but I prefer my actions to be effective. (Kind of the whole reason I started this thread, ironically).

Something else I think it's important to remember is that no one was doing all that much screaming before the spill. In fact, most people *really* didn't know or care about the dangers of offshore rigs prior to this. We all love our petroleum products, we are sadly addicted to them, and we really don't want to know what it is costing, or could cost, the environment for us to have them. Lest you think I am counting myself out here, I am not. I drive a gas burning vehicle, I take flights, I buy things that are shipped in trucks and boats and airplanes that use petroleum products. I think it behooves us all to take a step back and realize OUR role in this disaster.

Our hands are not clean.

Yes, BP should be punished, harshly. We need to ensure this never, ever happens again, but that means more than making angry videos or staging boycotts, it means putting more consideration into our first world habits and realizing that the more power you give to free enterprise the less accountability you are likely to find at the end of the day.

/rant

 

[Netzach]

I don't agree with dumping trash on BP property because guess who will be cleaning that up? The poor schmuck making minimum wage, who probably just scrapes by from paycheque to paycheque, much like lots of people on this board. The "proles" as Netz might call them.

I'm angry, sure, but if boycotting BP stations isn't going to hurt the people it needs to hurt then I question that action too.

And I am all for taking action - I doubt many people on this board feel as passionately about the ocean as I do - but I prefer my actions to be effective. (Kind of the whole reason I started this thread, ironically).

Something else I think it's important to remember is that no one was doing all that much screaming before the spill. In fact, most people *really* didn't know or care about the dangers of offshore rigs prior to this. We all love our petroleum products, we are sadly addicted to them, and we really don't want to know what it is costing, or could cost, the environment for us to have them. Lest you think I am counting myself out here, I am not. I drive a gas burning vehicle, I take flights, I buy things that are shipped in trucks and boats and airplanes that use petroleum products. I think it behooves us all to take a step back and realize OUR role in this disaster.

Our hands are not clean.

Yes, BP should be punished, harshly. We need to ensure this never, ever happens again, but that means more than making angry videos or staging boycotts, it means putting more consideration into our first world habits and realizing that the more power you give to free enterprise the less accountability you are likely to find at the end of the day.

/rant

I said it was *funny* which doesn't mean I entirely approve, either. Guilty laughter. Admire the degree of pissed off.

I absolutely see this as a kind of do or die.

Get off the petroleum based economic tit or die.

There's nothing marginal or flaky about this - it's not jobs and lives versus dolphins or shrimp - it's all of the above.

We had a desireable and functional electric GM car.

We can keep the lights on with nuclear and wind.

It's the oil interests that buy government, regardless of party affiliation, and sell the idea that they're the only game in town.

 

[Keroin]

I absolutely see this as a kind of do or die.

Get off the petroleum based economic tit or die.

There's nothing marginal or flaky about this - it's not jobs and lives versus dolphins or shrimp - it's all of the above.

The oil will stop, at some point, whether we are ready for it or not. And when it does...


(Well, the pissed off is just the tree hugger in me rising to the surface, lol)

 

[Netzach]

Yep. BP oughta have to reimburse everyone in this damn country for the losses of this massive fuckup--from shrimp fishermen to people in the tourism industry to the convenience store guys--since this is hardly the first time they've shown complete disregard for safety. It ain't gonna happen, though.

I like this idea - if they're going to pay a fisherman's lost wages they can sure as hell compensate a franchise.

 

[BiBunny]

Dude, I'm pissed as fuck--that's MY Gulf, dammit--, but I'm not literally cleaning out my horses' stalls and dumping horseshit in the parking lots of convenience stores. I'm fairly certain that the redneck in the video isn't *really* advocating it, either.

But you know what? As shitty as this situation is, those videos and the information that has been unearthed is helping to change the minds of people who might not have otherwise given a shit about environmental issues. People like me, for example. But if that's somehow not good enough for you, then whatevs.

With that, I'm out. Anything else I might have to say about that would be ill-advised.

 

[midwestyankee]

I

It's the oil interests that buy government, regardless of party affiliation, and sell the idea that they're the only game in town.

Actually, in terms of transportation, they are pretty much the only game in town. Solar power won't haul that 18-wheeler up the Interstate. Wind power has nothing to do with transportation. And electric vehicles with more than 100 miles of range at a decent speed are still a long ways off.

To put it more rationally and ligically: we're fucked.

 

[Netzach]

Actually, in terms of transportation, they are pretty much the only game in town. Solar power won't haul that 18-wheeler up the Interstate. Wind power has nothing to do with transportation. And electric vehicles with more than 100 miles of range at a decent speed are still a long ways off.

To put it more rationally and ligically: we're fucked.

Ok, so 18 wheelers are still going to fuel up. It doesn't mean that every *car* on the road could never have been electric by now based on the killed experiment that is over 10 years old. Had we put in some effort on that front. If every saturn product you see zipping around town were electric this alone would make a dent.

 

[JMohegan]

Our hands are not clean.

Yes, BP should be punished, harshly. We need to ensure this never, ever happens again, but that means more than making angry videos or staging boycotts, it means putting more consideration into our first world habits and realizing that the more power you give to free enterprise the less accountability you are likely to find at the end of the day.

/rant

Agreed about our hands, 100%.

But again, with regard to "BP" - who or what is that, exactly? You can't "punish" a legal construct.

In human terms, a corporation is shareholders + employees. Hit the bottom line, and you punish the former. Hit it hard enough, and you punish the latter as well - though any punishing of employees (through job loss) will start at the bottom. As always.

As for the big wigs, with the funny money salaries and golden parachutes and multiple options for landing on their feet even if they're let go, the only thing they really fear is the perp walk. Which is why, of all the pressures we could & should be bringing to bear, the political pressure to prosecute to the fullest is the one I believe makes the most sense.

 

[Keroin]

Dude, I'm pissed as fuck--that's MY Gulf, dammit--, but I'm not literally cleaning out my horses' stalls and dumping horseshit in the parking lots of convenience stores. I'm fairly certain that the redneck in the video isn't *really* advocating it, either.

But you know what? As shitty as this situation is, those videos and the information that has been unearthed is helping to change the minds of people who might not have otherwise given a shit about environmental issues. People like me, for example. But if that's somehow not good enough for you, then whatevs.

With that, I'm out. Anything else I might have to say about that would be ill-advised.

BB, I'm not slamming you or anybody in particular - you will notice that I very pointedly included my self in the rant. At what point did I say that people learning about and caring about environmental issues was not good enough? What I said was that it's not enough for us to cast all the blame on BP, we have to also critically examine our way of life. And our way of life, as it stands, is oil dependent. Yours, mine, the whole of N. America and much of the world.

If that bothers you, I'm sorry. My opinion on that matter is fixed.

Also, when it comes to the environment, it is not yours, or mine, it belongs to everyone. Many of the species that inhabit the Gulf are migratory, which means they could be species from any number of states or countries. There is only one ocean and it belongs to all of us.

 

[midwestyankee]

Ok, so 18 wheelers are still going to fuel up. It doesn't mean that every *car* on the road could never have been electric by now based on the killed experiment that is over 10 years old. Had we put in some effort on that front. If every saturn product you see zipping around town were electric this alone would make a dent.

Perhaps, but I'm not quite so optimistic. The barrier is the battery technology and folks have been steadily working on it since before the EV-1 project was canned. Barring an unexpected technological breakthrough, battery life for car engines will be short and it will take a boatload of batteries just to move your golf-cart sized two seater to the grocery store.

I'm with you, though. I'd kill for a truly useful long-range electric car.

 

[Netzach]

Perhaps, but I'm not quite so optimistic. The barrier is the battery technology and folks have been steadily working on it since before the EV-1 project was canned. Barring an unexpected technological breakthrough, battery life for car engines will be short and it will take a boatload of batteries just to move your golf-cart sized two seater to the grocery store.

I'm with you, though. I'd kill for a truly useful long-range electric car.

then we'd have to live within 50 miles of the workplace or aunt mildred or have rail, God forbid.

Here's a thought.

Farmer? Need to haul ass all over the place for your livelihood? Tax the fuck out of it and make it a tax-free business expense with the correct TID number presented at purchase. Joe blow will have his choice of short-stint electric vehicles or functioning public transport to get him to his suburban/urban destination. Those too stupid to get a TID number will be Joe the Plumber.

 

[JMohegan]

Actually, in terms of transportation, they are pretty much the only game in town. Solar power won't haul that 18-wheeler up the Interstate. Wind power has nothing to do with transportation. And electric vehicles with more than 100 miles of range at a decent speed are still a long ways off.

To put it more rationally and ligically: we're fucked.

What's really maddening is that the handwriting's been on the wall since I was a teen, when the oil producing countries demonstrated their power to wrap their hands around the balls of the world and squeeze.

And every administration, red and blue, for the entirety of my adult life, has failed to treat this like the critical combination national security, economic security and environmental security issue that it so obviously is.

 

[Keroin]

Agreed about our hands, 100%.

But again, with regard to "BP" - who or what is that, exactly? You can't "punish" a legal construct.

In human terms, a corporation is shareholders + employees. Hit the bottom line, and you punish the former. Hit it hard enough, and you punish the latter as well - though any punishing of employees (through job loss) will start at the bottom. As always.

As for the big wigs, with the funny money salaries and golden parachutes and multiple options for landing on their feet even if they're let go, the only thing they really fear is the perp walk. Which is why, of all the pressures we could & should be bringing to bear, the political pressure to prosecute to the fullest is the one I believe makes the most sense.

I think political action is the key. Pressure, pressure, pressure. Environmental issues always seem to be the first to get shoved aside when a bigger problem is in the spotlight, those who raise their voices in defense of the planet are some how seen as people who do not care about humans. Personally, I don't see how you can care about the latter and without also caring about the former.

Take my home province, for example. Tree huggers have fought against the logging of old growth forests - particularly clear-cutting of such - for years and no one paid much attention. However, now, with so many old growth trees gone, our forests have been ravaged by pine beetles. NOW everyone cares and is willing to do something, now suddenly we realize that damaging the environment damages us.

We have to make the connection. Soon.

 

[eastern sun]

Ok, so 18 wheelers are still going to fuel up. It doesn't mean that every *car* on the road could never have been electric by now based on the killed experiment that is over 10 years old. Had we put in some effort on that front. If every saturn product you see zipping around town were electric this alone would make a dent.

Obama got elected, at least in part, on the issue of oil dependency and the development of alternative energy sources. But the stimulus plan and health care reform have kept him busy. Hopefully, as the public eye turns in that direction, he'll use the crisis in the Gulf as political leverage to initiate meaningful research and incentives.

But the corporate interests have clearly demonstrated their ability to outlast the shifting gaze of the public eye. We are a fickle and easily distractible group.

 

[Keroin]

Perhaps, but I'm not quite so optimistic. The barrier is the battery technology and folks have been steadily working on it since before the EV-1 project was canned. Barring an unexpected technological breakthrough, battery life for car engines will be short and it will take a boatload of batteries just to move your golf-cart sized two seater to the grocery store.

I'm with you, though. I'd kill for a truly useful long-range electric car.

There is some interesting work being done with algae - for use as fuel. I'm not kidding. I have a friend who knows about it, I'll have to get some factual details from him.

 

[midwestyankee]

then we'd have to live within 50 miles of the workplace or aunt mildred or have rail, God forbid.

Here's a thought.

Farmer? Need to haul ass all over the place for your livelihood? Tax the fuck out of it and make it a tax-free business expense with the correct TID number presented at purchase. Joe blow will have his choice of short-stint electric vehicles or functioning public transport to get him to his suburban/urban destination.

This sounds too much like Europe. No good idea comes from east of Manhattan, you know that.

 

[midwestyankee]

What's really maddening is that the handwriting's been on the wall since I was a teen, when the oil producing countries demonstrated their power to wrap their hands around the balls of the world and squeeze.

And every administration, red and blue, for the entirety of my adult life, has failed to treat this like the critical combination national security, economic security and environmental security issue that it so obviously is.

Damn straight!

 

[eastern sun]

There is some interesting work being done with algae - for use as fuel. I'm not kidding. I have a friend who knows about it, I'll have to get some factual details from him.

My son wrote a paper on the ocean as a source of alternative energy, and between biomass and kinetic wave energy, there is tremendous potential there.

 

[JMohegan]

Obama got elected, at least in part, on the issue of oil dependency and the development of alternative energy sources. But the stimulus plan and health care reform have kept him busy. Hopefully, as the public eye turns in that direction, he'll use the crisis in the Gulf as political leverage to initiate meaningful research and incentives.

But the corporate interests have clearly demonstrated their ability to outlast the shifting gaze of the public eye. We are a fickle and easily distractible group.

Oh my god, don't get me started on the small percentage of stimulus that actually went for alternative energy.

Political leverage to initiate meaningful research and incentives? That would be great. But I really don't think it will it happen.

 

[Keroin]

My son wrote a paper on the ocean as a source of alternative energy, and between biomass and kinetic wave energy, there is tremendous potential there.

Huge potential.

The ocean is...

 

[Netzach]

Oh my god, don't get me started on the small percentage of stimulus that actually went for alternative energy.

Political leverage to initiate meaningful research and incentives? That would be great. But I really don't think it will it happen.

Did someone miss where I mentioned that oil interests have paid for every single political candidate regardless of party affiliation?