A highly controversial film

[graceanne]

I do think a lot of it comes down to body language. My best determination of this case was that, while the girl was afraid to say no explicitly, her body language was clearly rejecting him. I think the perp saw that, and realized he could overpower her will, and realized it wouldn't be seen as rape because she wasn't protesting violently enough.

It really is quite sad.

Where is the line of consent? Do females need to expressly say "yes, you may fuck me"? Or is just not saying "NO!" enough?

I can say that a lot of women, particularly young women, are not ever going to be so bold as to say "yes, fuck me please". The vast majority of them are just too shy, and have complexes about being sluts. They'd rather get naked under bedsheets with a man and be terribly surprised when he "manages" to seduce her and stick it in. This puts guys in an awkward position, but I hold that this particular dude knew what was going on.

I'm sure that he did. And it shouldn't have to be where the chick has to say 'yes fuck me' or 'no don't', men and women should leave someone who's not interested alone, and not make them get to the point where they have to say 'no, back off mother fucker'. But this is real life, and since she didn't say no, I'll be money he'll get off.

 

[graceanne]

In that case, I've raped, and been raped, many a time.

I think that law is for when a person, normally a woman, is so drunk she's nearly passed out or is passed out. Then it's rape, cause their's no way she could say no, she's unconscious. Like the chick who passes out in a room, and then is raped by a guy who takes advantage of her.

K says it's a good thing I've never been much a partier, cause the second I get more than buzzed I go to sleep.

 

[Marquis]

I'm sure that he did. And it shouldn't have to be where the chick has to say 'yes fuck me' or 'no don't', men and women should leave someone who's not interested alone, and not make them get to the point where they have to say 'no, back off mother fucker'. But this is real life, and since she didn't say no, I'll be money he'll get off.

He already did.

 

[graceanne]

He already did.

Figures.

 

[wildfyre]

Through infinite patience and persistence, I have finally gotten a hold of a copy of Raw Deal: A Question of Consent, a documentary about the alleged rape of a stripper by University of Florida Fraternity brothers.
It is a FASCINATING look as to what rape really is however, and how rape has been redefined throughout the years. I have seen it several times and I'm still not sure if I consider what happened to be truly rape. The line is incredibly fine here, and it is fascinating to see it in front of you so real.

.

I've been on the receiving end of this scenario. It was the weekend I graduated from high school and at the time the term "date rape" was still pretty new. I didn't tell anyone for a long time. I felt like I couldn't really say anything because I felt like it was partly my fault. I put myself into a sketchy situation and felt like I had to take some of the blame. I won't go into all the details here but there were copious amounts of alcohol and stupidity on my part involved. The feeling I was partly responsible was reinforced when I got to college. Circumstances forced me to face the situation and finally talk about it. My bf at the time accused me of lying about it. He basically told me that you can't be raped by someone you've gone out with, even if it was just as friends previously. Needless to say, that relationship ended.
I went through therapy for awhile but it took a long time for the truth to sink in.....that once I said "NO" (and I said it several times) that the blame was all his. I still take the responsibility (without the blame) for my actions that night and it has mede me more careful in my dating. I'm more aware of the "signals" I send out and try to be clear about where I'm willing for a date to end up.
The whole subject is still met with suspicion and in some cases scorn. I don't think the debate about it will ever end.
If anyone wants to discuss further, you can PM me or catch up with my on Yahoo messanger.
Thanks for the discussion topic, Marquis.

 

[Marquis]

I really wish more people could see this film.

 

[chris9]

I've been on the receiving end of this scenario. It was the weekend I graduated from high school and at the time the term "date rape" was still pretty new. I didn't tell anyone for a long time. I felt like I couldn't really say anything because I felt like it was partly my fault. I put myself into a sketchy situation and felt like I had to take some of the blame. I won't go into all the details here but there were copious amounts of alcohol and stupidity on my part involved. The feeling I was partly responsible was reinforced when I got to college. Circumstances forced me to face the situation and finally talk about it. My bf at the time accused me of lying about it. He basically told me that you can't be raped by someone you've gone out with, even if it was just as friends previously. Needless to say, that relationship ended.
I went through therapy for awhile but it took a long time for the truth to sink in.....that once I said "NO" (and I said it several times) that the blame was all his. I still take the responsibility (without the blame) for my actions that night and it has mede me more careful in my dating. I'm more aware of the "signals" I send out and try to be clear about where I'm willing for a date to end up.
The whole subject is still met with suspicion and in some cases scorn. I don't think the debate about it will ever end.
If anyone wants to discuss further, you can PM me or catch up with my on Yahoo messanger.
Thanks for the discussion topic, Marquis.

*hugs*
I'm sorry you had to experience this.

 

[wildfyre]

*hugs*
I'm sorry you had to experience this.

Thanks chris! *hugs* back to you.
I found it easier to put behind me by learing to take it as one of the lesson's life has to teach me. I'm glad I took it as a lesson because it made me open to letting a roommate I had teach me some *down and dirty* self defense. (He was a frmr Marine!) Those lessons helped me out when my ex-fiance decided to show up on my doorstep after getting drunk. He was limping when I finally got him pushed him out the door!

 

[wildfyre]

I agree

I really wish more people could see this film.

I wish they could too. There's no way to truly understand the situation unless you've been in it, but it might help to shed some light on a truly confusing subject.

 

[graceanne]

I've been on the receiving end of this scenario. It was the weekend I graduated from high school and at the time the term "date rape" was still pretty new. I didn't tell anyone for a long time. I felt like I couldn't really say anything because I felt like it was partly my fault. I put myself into a sketchy situation and felt like I had to take some of the blame. I won't go into all the details here but there were copious amounts of alcohol and stupidity on my part involved. The feeling I was partly responsible was reinforced when I got to college. Circumstances forced me to face the situation and finally talk about it. My bf at the time accused me of lying about it. He basically told me that you can't be raped by someone you've gone out with, even if it was just as friends previously. Needless to say, that relationship ended.
I went through therapy for awhile but it took a long time for the truth to sink in.....that once I said "NO" (and I said it several times) that the blame was all his. I still take the responsibility (without the blame) for my actions that night and it has mede me more careful in my dating. I'm more aware of the "signals" I send out and try to be clear about where I'm willing for a date to end up.
The whole subject is still met with suspicion and in some cases scorn. I don't think the debate about it will ever end.
If anyone wants to discuss further, you can PM me or catch up with my on Yahoo messanger.
Thanks for the discussion topic, Marquis.

*hugs*

 

[chris9]

Thanks chris! *hugs* back to you.
I found it easier to put behind me by learing to take it as one of the lesson's life has to teach me. I'm glad I took it as a lesson because it made me open to letting a roommate I had teach me some *down and dirty* self defense. (He was a frmr Marine!) Those lessons helped me out when my ex-fiance decided to show up on my doorstep after getting drunk. He was limping when I finally got him pushed him out the door!

Yay, way to go! Sounds like a good thing to learn...

 

[wildfyre]

Thanks

*hugs*

*hugs* back to you graceanne!

 

[Betticus]

Do you have issues with your father?

Some issues but he was unusually violent before he got old and seems to suffer convenient memory loss.

The thing here is that I would tend to have less sympathy with men as I have the feeling that men should maintain better control of themselves.

I do know women though that would scream rape and prosecute some poor bastard just because she's mad about something else.

I think that there is a lot of gray area that often gets involved in date rape and acquaintance rape. Was there ever a sexual situation before or relationship? Was the girl sending highly sexual signals or exhibiting enticing behaviour? There has to be room for human error as a lot of gray area rapes don't really cross the legal lines even though someone was not willing, they may not have communicated that clearly to the other person.

I have in the past had relationships that have been rougher than normal or outside of the vanilla acceptance level. Only once though did I end up crossing into the further end of that gray area. We were very close and talked about it as we were younger (21 or so) and had a lot less experience. She just wasn't in the mood that time but she didn't know how to say no to me. We worked it out and ended up married but at the time I felt like shit about it and so did she.

While it wasn't rape she did say that at that time she felt used and not in a good way. But we were also already engaged and had been together for over a year. This one you are talking about though is off. They were not friends, lovers, exes or anything. She did however come back to that party and was apparently behaving very sexually with the guys. When you add in a drunken frat party theme to the mix I think this situation may have been very gray but not necessarily prosecutable now do I think this one warrants prosecution.

This one should be a very valuable learning experience for her. Play with fire and you sometimes get burned.

 

[Betticus]

I do think a lot of it comes down to body language. My best determination of this case was that, while the girl was afraid to say no explicitly, her body language was clearly rejecting him. I think the perp saw that, and realized he could overpower her will, and realized it wouldn't be seen as rape because she wasn't protesting violently enough.

It really is quite sad.

Where is the line of consent? Do females need to expressly say "yes, you may fuck me"? Or is just not saying "NO!" enough?

I can say that a lot of women, particularly young women, are not ever going to be so bold as to say "yes, fuck me please". The vast majority of them are just too shy, and have complexes about being sluts. They'd rather get naked under bedsheets with a man and be terribly surprised when he "manages" to seduce her and stick it in. This puts guys in an awkward position, but I hold that this particular dude knew what was going on.

That'll teach me to read the whole thread before replying.

Saying no is enough in my book. Perhaps all people from a young age should be taught the value of saying no and be made to practice that so that when in these situations there can be no questions as to what really happened.

Parents shouldn't send their children out into the world unprepared.

 

[Marquis]

The question was, is NOT saying No, enough to qualify as consent.

 

[canadiancutie]

It is very difficult to say. Viewing the tape itself makes it hard to imagine what they might've edited out. Besides, if they did edit out anything major, I would imagine there would be blank spots in the tape. You would think that would make the police more suspicious, but I could see Gainesville police protecting the good old frat boys from something even that obvious.

It was not mentioned on the film however, which seems to really scrutinize the incident.

You would be suprised what you can do with a little bit of Avid in a night.

 

[canadiancutie]

I really wish more people could see this film.

create pirates?

 

[Betticus]

The question was, is NOT saying No, enough to qualify as consent.

Depends. If she is unconscious she can't say no. Therefore she neither consented nor did she expressly forbid sex.

If she was scared or intimidated and thought that it was safer to not say no then you are back into gray area.

What if you held a gun to her kids head and told her to suck you off or you would kill her child? She didn't say no, sucked you off but was that implied as consent?

So then it is up to the judge and jury to determine what happened.

Also, if there are no witnesses other than the two involved then it gets a lot tougher to prove anything happened. Unless the perpetrator does enough damage and leaves enough genetic evidence to overcome all doubt.

So, not saying no is not enough to qualify as consent. Unless there is a prearrangement. Unless rape is an agreed upon part of your relationship but then there is still the matter of a safeword.

 

[Netzach]

The question was, is NOT saying No, enough to qualify as consent.

Not always. But sometimes the way the law is applied saying no is not enough to qualify as non-consent.

I think this girl was fucked one way or the other simply because she's a sex worker, but I didn't see the film and it sounds like she was pretty dumb to go back, also.

 

[Netzach]

Depends. If she is unconscious she can't say no. Therefore she neither consented nor did she expressly forbid sex.

If she was scared or intimidated and thought that it was safer to not say no then you are back into gray area.

What if you held a gun to her kids head and told her to suck you off or you would kill her child? She didn't say no, sucked you off but was that implied as consent?

I read about some guy who was let off because the woman he raped convinced him to put on a condom. That was considered consenting, somehow.

This was eons ago it was probably some Marie Claire lying around a doctor's office.

 

[graceanne]

I have never said yes or no to Kenny. I don't need to know. He knows how I feel about having sex by my responses. When I'm horny IT'S OBVIOUS. lol I think if a guy really cares if the woman is consenting he can tell. A woman who wants to have sex generally acts a lot differently than one who doesn't.

 

[Marquis]

I have never said yes or no to Kenny. I don't need to know. He knows how I feel about having sex by my responses. When I'm horny IT'S OBVIOUS. lol I think if a guy really cares if the woman is consenting he can tell. A woman who wants to have sex generally acts a lot differently than one who doesn't.

Very true.

 

[Marquis]

I just saw the movie again, sober.

I'm leaning more towards rape than the first time I saw it.

That's interesting for more than one reason if you really think about it.

 

[wildfyre]

I just saw the movie again, sober.

I'm leaning more towards rape than the first time I saw it.

That's interesting for more than one reason if you really think about it.

Just shows how perceptions can be skewed even further!

 

[Caitlynne]

I just saw the movie again, sober.

I'm leaning more towards rape than the first time I saw it.

That's interesting for more than one reason if you really think about it.

Yes, VERY interesting as a matter of fact!