A highly controversial film

[Etoile]

Wow. I do hope to see the movie myself, for both of the purposes Marquis did - nefariously and also for education. Yeah, I'm perverted enough to want to see that kind of thing, but I also want the opportunity to examine my own perversion as well as my thoughts on how consent, non-consent, and rape are defined.

This article mentions that the tape consists of the word "rape" being said by the perpetrators many, many times. If that's the case, then they knew what they were doing, and I don't think they were talking about fantasy rape. They were not in a relationship with this woman, and even if she was a sex worker they didn't pay her so they couldn't have claimed "oh we were just johns" and gotten busted for solicitation which is pretty much a slap on the wrist in many places.

 

[Marquis]

Wow. I do hope to see the movie myself, for both of the purposes Marquis did - nefariously and also for education. Yeah, I'm perverted enough to want to see that kind of thing, but I also want the opportunity to examine my own perversion as well as my thoughts on how consent, non-consent, and rape are defined.

This article mentions that the tape consists of the word "rape" being said by the perpetrators many, many times. If that's the case, then they knew what they were doing, and I don't think they were talking about fantasy rape. They were not in a relationship with this woman, and even if she was a sex worker they didn't pay her so they couldn't have claimed "oh we were just johns" and gotten busted for solicitation which is pretty much a slap on the wrist in many places.

I can't stress enough how fucking fascinating this tape is.

They did say rape many times, but you can tell it was in a sort of nervous joking, "is this rape?" fashion. The argument could be made that they wouldn't have reacted like that if they thought it was really a rape, or could be equally made that if they were even making those jokes, they must've had some idea that this wasnt exactly the most consensual sex ever.

Since you mention sex workers, there were many times on the tape when he says he's going to fuck her and she says "what's in it for me?". My suspicion is if the guy had had 50 bucks in his pocket, this never would've been an issue. The fact remains however, that he did not offer her money, she did not offer him consent, and so it still seems like rape to me.

I can't help but think though. By the law of opportunity cost, would she rather have been raped, or robbed of 50 bucks? That kind of puts this rape into a new category for me, honestly, because I think being robbed of 50 bucks is bad, but your robber hardly deserves the stigma of being a rapist.

However, for women who would rather die than be raped, and sometimes do, those guys can rot in a hole. It's a very un-PC opinion to have, I might imagine, and goes along with the blaming the victim thing that is so bad, but I gotta be honest about whats running through my head.

 

[Private_Label]

This is an interesting discussion...

I can't stress enough how fucking fascinating this tape is.

They did say rape many times, but you can tell it was in a sort of nervous joking, "is this rape?" fashion.

I don't know what was said exactly, but the review has them saying "we're going to rape a white trash whore." To me that says it would not have mattered what she said, because they already thought of her as deserving less than respect.

Since you mention sex workers, there were many times on the tape when he says he's going to fuck her and she says "what's in it for me?". My suspicion is if the guy had had 50 bucks in his pocket, this never would've been an issue. The fact remains however, that he did not offer her money, she did not offer him consent, and so it still seems like rape to me.

I can't help but think though. By the law of opportunity cost, would she rather have been raped, or robbed of 50 bucks? That kind of puts this rape into a new category for me, honestly, because I think being robbed of 50 bucks is bad, but your robber hardly deserves the stigma of being a rapist.

So if she puts a price tag on it, it isn't rape? It could be that she was trying to tell the guy 'you can't afford me' as a way of avoiding sex. Maybe he didn't accept 'No' since she was a stripper, and by putting a price tag on it she could tell him he didn't have enough money as a way to escape.

Not knowing why she returned to the Frat house after she left has me a bit concerned as well. If she returned to pick up some equipment, did the frat boys prevent her from leaving? If she returned because she was invited, as a worker in the sex trades, she had to know someone would proposition her and that the men were going to be so drunk that they might not take no for an answer...

It is a difficult thing. My mom always told me, that while I had the right to say no, I also had the responsibility to stay away from situations that might cause a boy to push and ignore my request to stop. If she returned to the frat house to drink and flit, especially after stripping for them, then I CAN see the college boys taking that as implied consent. Doesn't make it right in my eyes, , the woman involved does bear at least some responsibility. Note this has nothing to do with the way she was dressed, but that she returned to the party - if she had not returned, then the rape would not have happened. I would really like to know WHY she returned to the party, and if she was prevented from leaving before she was raped.

However, for women who would rather die than be raped, and sometimes do, those guys can rot in a hole. It's a very un-PC opinion to have, I might imagine, and goes along with the blaming the victim thing that is so bad, but I gotta be honest about whats running through my head.

It is an interesting discussion you have started Marquis. Thanks.

 

[greyhawk]

any one who want to see this movie i found it

http://svc009.bne011i.server-web.com/catalogue/videoshift/cache/item-6138public.html?cache=no

 

[Marquis]

Anyone who wants to see the movie, now is the time to pm me.

 

[Marquis]

any one who want to see this movie i found it

http://svc009.bne011i.server-web.com/catalogue/videoshift/cache/item-6138public.html?cache=no

They seem to be distributing it in Australia, but not the US.

 

[Etoile]

I'm about halfway through this. The most amazing point so far is that they all have super memories. She remembers everything in such detail, and so do the guys who are interviewed in depth. She does state a few times that she's forgotten stuff due to the alcohol, but the amount of what she remembers is amazing. It must have been hard to speak extemporaneously like that.

 

[Marquis]

I'm about halfway through this. The most amazing point so far is that they all have super memories. She remembers everything in such detail, and so do the guys who are interviewed in depth. She does state a few times that she's forgotten stuff due to the alcohol, but the amount of what she remembers is amazing. It must have been hard to speak extemporaneously like that.

I thought this was pretty remarkable too. Oh well, they both had the video to jog their memory.

 

[sigsauerprinces]

the first time i was raped, i never said "no", but i think it was obvious to everyone there what was going on.

i was in a hotel room with two girlfriends, their two boyfriends, and a third guy who was a friend of theirs (tho not really of mine). the two couples started making out and eventually started fucking on the bed. now, i had no attraction to this third guy and i didnt want to fuck him, and that was pretty obvious-i wasnt sitting on his lap, or flirting with him, i was sitting across the ROOM from him. but when the two couples started having sex, he came over to me and started flirting and putting his hands on me. the first time he touched me i turned my whole body away from him-he was known as a rough sort of person but then to be honest everyone i hung out with at that stage of my life (i was 16) was. he pulled at my arm to remove it from over my breasts, i resisted, and he slapped me on the side of the face. the other couples were caught up in what they were doing BUT i do believe they were aware of what was going on and just didnt care. yes, i pick my friends much more carefully since that day. after he slapped me he looked at me like "resist again and i'm going to fuck you up". throughout the whole thing i dont think i said a word. he fucked me roughly for about three minutes, came, and got off me. as soon as he walked back to the other side of the room, i put my clothes on and left.

now technically i never said no, but my body language did, and it was very obvious that i didnt WANT to have sex and only did so because i didnt feel like getting beat up.

if anyones upset by this story, dont be-twas a long time ago and i'm over and past it. but its a good example of how even if someone doesnt say the word "no", it can still be rape.

the funny thing is, i had a bad feeling as soon as the first two couples started having sex. this guy was kind of insecure, and i think he figured-the other two couples are getting it on-and this bitch doesnt want to fuck me. i think he felt humiliated in front of his friends because i wanted nothing to do with him..so i really feel like the rape had more to do with violence and anger than sex.

and of course the really odd thing about the whole thing is i've had nonconsent fantasies before and after that day..the experience had no bearing on those fantasies either way.

 

[Marquis]

the first time i was raped, i never said "no", but i think it was obvious to everyone there what was going on.

i was in a hotel room with two girlfriends, their two boyfriends, and a third guy who was a friend of theirs (tho not really of mine). the two couples started making out and eventually started fucking on the bed. now, i had no attraction to this third guy and i didnt want to fuck him, and that was pretty obvious-i wasnt sitting on his lap, or flirting with him, i was sitting across the ROOM from him. but when the two couples started having sex, he came over to me and started flirting and putting his hands on me. the first time he touched me i turned my whole body away from him-he was known as a rough sort of person but then to be honest everyone i hung out with at that stage of my life (i was 16) was. he pulled at my arm to remove it from over my breasts, i resisted, and he slapped me on the side of the face. the other couples were caught up in what they were doing BUT i do believe they were aware of what was going on and just didnt care. yes, i pick my friends much more carefully since that day. after he slapped me he looked at me like "resist again and i'm going to fuck you up". throughout the whole thing i dont think i said a word. he fucked me roughly for about three minutes, came, and got off me. as soon as he walked back to the other side of the room, i put my clothes on and left.

now technically i never said no, but my body language did, and it was very obvious that i didnt WANT to have sex and only did so because i didnt feel like getting beat up.

if anyones upset by this story, dont be-twas a long time ago and i'm over and past it. but its a good example of how even if someone doesnt say the word "no", it can still be rape.

the funny thing is, i had a bad feeling as soon as the first two couples started having sex. this guy was kind of insecure, and i think he figured-the other two couples are getting it on-and this bitch doesnt want to fuck me. i think he felt humiliated in front of his friends because i wanted nothing to do with him..so i really feel like the rape had more to do with violence and anger than sex.

and of course the really odd thing about the whole thing is i've had nonconsent fantasies before and after that day..the experience had no bearing on those fantasies either way.

Remarkable similarities to the rape in this movie. Thanks for the story.

 

[Etoile]

One thing I have noticed so far (not done with the movie yet) is that Lisa Gier King was drunk as a skunk, three sheets to the wind, completely and utterly soused. You can hear it in her voice on the videotape. Nobody would ever deny that she was drunk. I don't think anybody would even deny that the frat guys deliberately gave her more alcohol to make her as wasted as possible. And that, right there, her being intoxicated, makes it rape in my eyes. (If this gets addressed later in the documentary, I might revise this.)

 

[Marquis]

One thing I have noticed so far (not done with the movie yet) is that Lisa Gier King was drunk as a skunk, three sheets to the wind, completely and utterly soused. You can hear it in her voice on the videotape. Nobody would ever deny that she was drunk. I don't think anybody would even deny that the frat guys deliberately gave her more alcohol to make her as wasted as possible. And that, right there, her being intoxicated, makes it rape in my eyes. (If this gets addressed later in the documentary, I might revise this.)

She admits to willingly getting drunk though, and being happy to be offered so much alcohol. Any sex under the influence is rape?

 

[sigsauerprinces]

Remarkable similarities to the rape in this movie. Thanks for the story.

you're welcome. i'd really like to see the video, because i think its true that its a fine line sometimes. it also doesnt help that in so many romance novels, the girl goes "no, no, please dont" and then of course ends up submitting (and liking it). whats that saying-your lips say no but your eyes say yes?

its like you said, a lot of girls arent comfortable with being honest and making it obvious that yes, they want you to fuck them. they feel like they have to play that coy game. i think we'll all be better off the day women are allowed to be fully sexual and make it known that yes, they want to be fucked tonight (wthout being labeled sluts or trash, ect).

 

[Marquis]

you're welcome. i'd really like to see the video, because i think its true that its a fine line sometimes. it also doesnt help that in so many romance novels, the girl goes "no, no, please dont" and then of course ends up submitting (and liking it). whats that saying-your lips say no but your eyes say yes?

its like you said, a lot of girls arent comfortable with being honest and making it obvious that yes, they want you to fuck them. they feel like they have to play that coy game. i think we'll all be better off the day women are allowed to be fully sexual and make it known that yes, they want to be fucked tonight (wthout being labeled sluts or trash, ect).

I couldn't agree more.

 

[ammre]

did it seem like they were doing it to get off or they were doing it to have power or control over her?

(obiviously sex with power and control weighing heavily on the parties involved isn't rape or else i wouldn't <3 bdsm, but most/all sex crimes have to do with power)

 

[Hooper_X]

I've been on a rape case jury. There was no video, no witnesses, and no physical evidence. It all came down to her word against his, and that wasn't enough to me to vote for a conviction.

 

[Marquis]

did it seem like they were doing it to get off or they were doing it to have power or control over her?

(obiviously sex with power and control weighing heavily on the parties involved isn't rape or else i wouldn't <3 bdsm, but most/all sex crimes have to do with power)

Definitely control.


This was definitely a man forcing himself on a woman, but she never says no at all, and certainly talks a lot.

 

[Etoile]

She admits to willingly getting drunk though, and being happy to be offered so much alcohol. Any sex under the influence is rape?

No, sorry I didn't make that clear. I think her drunkenness was what kept her from physically resisting him, pushing him away and running. She says "you're not going to do anything I don't want you to do" which seems to indicate that she means to have her wits about her; she also rejects him in other ways. But because she is drunk, her ability to resist is hampered.

I'm still not sure if it was rape or not, but I do think her extreme intoxication played an important role.

 

[Etoile]

Definitely control.


This was definitely a man forcing himself on a woman, but she never says no at all, and certainly talks a lot.

Yes, she does. And the big question is how much of that is refusing the sex, and how much of it is just sassiness. I can totally see the perspective that it's all sass. And yet...

 

[Etoile]

i'd really like to see the video

I'm hoping to get a torrent set up so the video can be shared.

 

[Marquis]

I'm glad you found it as intriguing as I did Etoile.

I partially agree with you about her being drunk, but I think a big part of the reason she didn't struggle and say no was her own ego. She wanted to appear tough like this wasn't bothering her, and I can't blame her. She was trying to prevent being victimized as best she could, and that might've ended up biting her in the ass.

 

[bridgeburner]

I think a big part of the reason she didn't struggle and say no was her own ego. She wanted to appear tough like this wasn't bothering her, and I can't blame her. She was trying to prevent being victimized as best she could, and that might've ended up biting her in the ass.

Bingo! I don't know that that's what it was --- I haven't seen the tape or the film, but I can easily imagine such a scenario. How many guys were there? You might fight one or maybe even two, but what are the odds for a single, drunk female against multiple assailants? Not good.

So it comes down to seeking the least awful outcome. Do you fight like a demon, knowing you're likely going to lose and perhaps provoke a more violent reaction or do you submit to get it over with and escape with as little damage as possible?

I'm not sure what my choice would be. I tend to think that I'd go for the least amount of physical trauma. If my body is going to be overpowered I'll do my damndest to keep my mind my own.


-B

 

[wildfyre]

No, sorry I didn't make that clear. I think her drunkenness was what kept her from physically resisting him, pushing him away and running. She says "you're not going to do anything I don't want you to do" which seems to indicate that she means to have her wits about her; she also rejects him in other ways. But because she is drunk, her ability to resist is hampered.

I'm still not sure if it was rape or not, but I do think her extreme intoxication played an important role.

I'm still on the fence about this as well.

One the one hand:

• Lisa admits she knew the guys were plying her with booze,and she didn't seem to have a problem with that. Now, maybe it's just me but there's only one reason I can think of why any guy would ply a woman with alcohol. Did she know of another reason why they would want to get her drunk?
  
  Lisa agreed to ride home with her friend because she was freaking out about being driven home alone by the frat boy (I can't remember his name right now..must be blocking it). To me, this would indicate something happened that made her scared of the frat boy. Wouldn't this tell Lisa that it's a good idea to grab her stuff from the guy's bedroom and just go home at that point? Even drunk, you'd think one or two warning bells would have gone off. She could have crashed at the other strippers house and they could have gone back for her car in the morning.
  
  Lisa tried to stop them from penetrating her by "scissoring her legs" and by telling them they weren't going to do anything she didn't want. This to me indicates a big "NO" to having intercourse. However, why did she egg them on by talking dirty and calling herself a dirty slut/whore (I can't remember which word she used). Some of her comments went a little beyond a "sassiness" that she was using to try and retain whatever control she could (IMO). I understand using bravado to try to not feel as much a victim but, c'mon, you don't tell drunk guys they can't do something and then practically dare them to do it by talking shit.

On the other hand:

• 
  The fact that the frat boys made sure the strippers got drunk tells me they wanted to make sure they got laid.
  
  The other stripper's reluctance to being left alone with any of the frat boys tells me that they were probably getting inappropriate (read: grabby, rough) as the evening wore on.
  
  Comments like "she was of a lower social class ....I never would have touched her, she's low-class trash" (I know, I know, it's not an exact quote but this is the gist). These frat boys had the mentality that the strippers were less than human because they didn't travel in the same social circles. They come across like they believe the women weren't anything but toys for them to use and throw away.
  
  Lisa indicated with her body language that she didn't want intercourse and these guys decided to ignore her protests. Going so far as to laugh at her attempts to stop them...at that point, they knew it wasn't totally consentual.
  
  The fact that these guys edited the video before the next morning tells me that they knew there was the posibility Lisa would cry "rape" and there was something on that tape that would support her claim.

I think that both sides need to claim responsibility for their actions because both sides contributed to the situation.
This is why I didn't do anything when I was date raped. Yes, he was wrong to force himself on me (I repeatedly said "no") but I was wrong to put myself in the position of being alone with a drunk, horny teenager and being too drunk myself to at least put up a good fight.

Unfortunately, there are no clear cut answers. I just want to see the video footage that was edited out.

 

[Marquis]

I wonder how much was edited out, they're never really clear on that. Considering what they DO show us, I'd have to say my hunch is that not much is edited out if at all. Besides, if the tape was edited, couldn't she claim that she said no more clearly in that section of the tape? I don't recall her doing that, although she claims things got rougher after the cameras were turned off, something which I doubt.


The way that loser adolescent spoke about Lisa was fucking repulsive. Even worse, I thought was what his lawyer says at one point. In an exclamation of shock:

"She wasn't ashamed of stripping and getting drunk with a bunch of guys and sucking their cocks and partying with them."

But this is all stuff his client did too!!! It was just shameful for her because she's female??!!! That may be your personal opinion, but where in the lawbooks does it state that females are held to higher standards than men?!!

This was even worse:

"She was soliciting men for sex. Tony didn't want to do it, she was having a hard time finding any takers. But Mike, Mike was interested."

Oh I get it, if a woman gets rejected by the man she's pursuing, she is now fair game for the next dick that presents itself. This is the field I'm going into, good lord.

 

[wildfyre]

Welcome to the wonderful world of women! We get to live with the hypocrisy every day! And it's worse for some, like the women working in the sex industry.
Then in this case you add in the elitist bullshit attitude of the Frat boys and their attorneys......

The whole thing is just fishy to me. Even with the video as proof, they still have a wide discrepancy in the versions of events. This is part of the problem with eyewitness testimony. Everyone filters things through their own experiences and puts their own spin on the events.

Marquis, when you graduate, we'll count on you to be one of the few good lawyers out there!

I wonder how much was edited out, they're never really clear on that. Considering what they DO show us, I'd have to say my hunch is that not much is edited out if at all. Besides, if the tape was edited, couldn't she claim that she said no more clearly in that section of the tape? I don't recall her doing that, although she claims things got rougher after the cameras were turned off, something which I doubt.


The way that loser adolescent spoke about Lisa was fucking repulsive. Even worse, I thought was what his lawyer says at one point. In an exclamation of shock:

"She wasn't ashamed of stripping and getting drunk with a bunch of guys and sucking their cocks and partying with them."

But this is all stuff his client did too!!! It was just shameful for her because she's female??!!! That may be your personal opinion, but where in the lawbooks does it state that females are held to higher standards than men?!!

This was even worse:

"She was soliciting men for sex. Tony didn't want to do it, she was having a hard time finding any takers. But Mike, Mike was interested."

Oh I get it, if a woman gets rejected by the man she's pursuing, she is now fair game for the next dick that presents itself. This is the field I'm going into, good lord.