A question for all a' yous' furriners

[amicus]

Amicus groans and sighs loudly...

Hillary Clinton and a host of other left wing liberal psuedo intellectuals are now 'visibly' attending religious functions on a regular basis to 'demonstrate' that the left wing democrats are more than pro gay, pro abortion, libertine minded.

Judeau Christian ethics and morality forms a loose foundation for a nation to share some fundamental beliefs about life.

Everyone instinctively knows that homosexuality and abortion, are 'wrong' in the general sense of what is right and wrong about society. Barely thirty years ago, homosexuality was a psychological dysfunction and treated as such and abortion was first degree, pre meditated murder and treated as such.

With the virtual death of god and an absolute code of religious morality weakened by dissention, Americans and others are seeking for a 'rational' code of morality to replace it.

The left wing liberal intellectuals in promoting secular humanism as a replacement, have basically failed to win over the hearts and minds of the populace and the people wish to return to a more stable and understandable code of ethics.

In short, there is a 'vacuum' in the area of moral certainty and people truly need some 'demonstrable' truths and absolutes by which to live and to pass on to their children.

There is a small danger that the American Right wing fundamentalists will fill that vacuum, but a much larger possibility that the socialist left wing semi democracies of western europe will by fiat or default, fill that space with an ubiquitous social morality akin to, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need' mentality of Marx and Lenin.

In essence it becomes rather a Jeremy Bentham thing of 'practical morality' if I recall my early studies correctly.

Thus the 'Kansas' issue is really just a sidebar to a much larger debate that in essence is world wide.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

amicus...

 

[TheEarl]

Amicus groans and sighs loudly...

Hillary Clinton and a host of other left wing liberal psuedo intellectuals are now 'visibly' attending religious functions on a regular basis to 'demonstrate' that the left wing democrats are more than pro gay, pro abortion, libertine minded.

Judeau Christian ethics and morality forms a loose foundation for a nation to share some fundamental beliefs about life.

Everyone instinctively knows that homosexuality and abortion, are 'wrong' in the general sense of what is right and wrong about society. Barely thirty years ago, homosexuality was a psychological dysfunction and treated as such and abortion was first degree, pre meditated murder and treated as such.

With the virtual death of god and an absolute code of religious morality weakened by dissention, Americans and others are seeking for a 'rational' code of morality to replace it.

The left wing liberal intellectuals in promoting secular humanism as a replacement, have basically failed to win over the hearts and minds of the populace and the people wish to return to a more stable and understandable code of ethics.

In short, there is a 'vacuum' in the area of moral certainty and people truly need some 'demonstrable' truths and absolutes by which to live and to pass on to their children.

There is a small danger that the American Right wing fundamentalists will fill that vacuum, but a much larger possibility that the socialist left wing semi democracies of western europe will by fiat or default, fill that space with an ubiquitous social morality akin to, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need' mentality of Marx and Lenin.

In essence it becomes rather a Jeremy Bentham thing of 'practical morality' if I recall my early studies correctly.

Thus the 'Kansas' issue is really just a sidebar to a much larger debate that in essence is world wide.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

amicus...

Amicus: Have you ever heard of the 'Forsake the Troops' website?

The Earl

 

[Guest]

Amicus groans and sighs loudly...

Hillary Clinton and a host of other left wing liberal psuedo intellectuals are now 'visibly' attending religious functions on a regular basis to 'demonstrate' that the left wing democrats are more than pro gay, pro abortion, libertine minded.

Judeau Christian ethics and morality forms a loose foundation for a nation to share some fundamental beliefs about life.

Everyone instinctively knows that homosexuality and abortion, are 'wrong' in the general sense of what is right and wrong about society. Barely thirty years ago, homosexuality was a psychological dysfunction and treated as such and abortion was first degree, pre meditated murder and treated as such.

With the virtual death of god and an absolute code of religious morality weakened by dissention, Americans and others are seeking for a 'rational' code of morality to replace it.

The left wing liberal intellectuals in promoting secular humanism as a replacement, have basically failed to win over the hearts and minds of the populace and the people wish to return to a more stable and understandable code of ethics.

In short, there is a 'vacuum' in the area of moral certainty and people truly need some 'demonstrable' truths and absolutes by which to live and to pass on to their children.

There is a small danger that the American Right wing fundamentalists will fill that vacuum, but a much larger possibility that the socialist left wing semi democracies of western europe will by fiat or default, fill that space with an ubiquitous social morality akin to, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need' mentality of Marx and Lenin.

In essence it becomes rather a Jeremy Bentham thing of 'practical morality' if I recall my early studies correctly.

Thus the 'Kansas' issue is really just a sidebar to a much larger debate that in essence is world wide.

Welcome to the 21st Century.

amicus...

But where do you stand on "Natural Selection"?

 

[minsue]

But where do you stand on "Natural Selection"?

Threadjack aversion therapy, Loulou? How very new age.

 

[amicus]

Sighs...twititus must be in the wind, I assumed you have read enough of me to know that 'natural selection', evolution, is evidentiary and self evident; to be inferred from the content.

perhaps not...

nice to see you again, too...

amicus...

 

[Guest]

Threadjack aversion therapy, Loulou? How very new age.

It's ok, I've had a couple of glasses of wine now. I'm back to normal.

 

[Guest]

Sighs...twititus must be in the wind, I assumed you have read enough of me to know that 'natural selection', evolution, is evidentiary and self evident; to be inferred from the content.

perhaps not...

nice to see you again, too...

amicus...

Hmmm... ya... that's what I thought.

Cheers, Amicus, good to see you, too!

 

[kendo1]

I find all this talk of creationism very strange.
But, back to school. I fear I was at school before Lou! and basically we were taught christianity in RE. If I remember correctly, other religions were mentioned but in Scotland most people back then (99.9999%) were white, caucasian and either christian or aethiest!

 

[fifty5]

Exactly! It's all sybolism and metaphor. Even Jesus and all his dudes knew that.

Hi Lou,

I wish you were right, but read Paul's first letter to Timothy sometime - that's all deadly serious. It's off-topic as far as creation goes, but it is relevant to current religious debate: why women must not be ordained. Paul at least was (in modern day terms) an anti-feminist bigot! (See chapter 2.)

 

[Varode]

I find all this talk of creationism very strange.
But, back to school. I fear I was at school before Lou! and basically we were taught christianity in RE. If I remember correctly, other religions were mentioned but in Scotland most people back then (99.9999%) were white, caucasian and either christian or aethiest!

I'm old enough to remember prayer in schools in New Jersey. I was raised Catholic and every day in school we said a Protestant version of the Our Father and then had a psalm read to us. Mind you, at least a third of the class was Jewish. That stopped when I was in Fourth Grade, which is I guess one way of stating what my age is.

One of the better books on fundamentalism is "The Battle for God" by Karen Armstrong, a noted writer on religion. Fundamentalists all act as if they have had the received truth since the beginning of time, but almost all Fundamentalist movements are less than 150 years old.

What Fundamentalists seek is a world where everything has the simplest explanation. Creationism and Intelligent Design are basically ways of keeping humanity on top of the hierarchy of Earth rather than face the possibility that evolution created us by chance.

It says something that even the Vatican accepts evolution, although they accept it as a work of God's.

 

[patrick1]

Varode, I was just thinking along similar lines. The idea of 'the literal truth' of the bible is a very modern, 19th Century idea compared to all the years people have been reading the Bible.

In parallel, the confidence with which people advocate the 'truth' of evolution can be slightly scary. As I see it, it is a highly probable hypothesis. But to assert genetic reasons for certain personality traits, for instance, or to write about what must have happened x hundred years ago for the horse to be what it is now - notions like these will only ever be well-informed speculative fictions.

patrick

 

[amicus]

Patrick!...not speculation at all and not theory or hypothosis....we dug up the damned bones and middens and through science learned how to carbon date and like any logical progression towards knowledge, tied it all together as 'fact' and 'truth'; have your faith as you will, but do not decry unfairly scientific method, the computer you are typing on is a result of it!

amicus...

 

[ChilledVodkaIV]

And never, never forget that travelling at over thirty miles per hour you will outrush the air and not be able to breath either. Scientific fact.

 

[amicus]

Yes, and the earth was flat and all the stars and sun revolved around us....and the speed of sound was not to be broken and the speed of light is constant and an absolute....we build from basic facts that do not contradict and wider understandings are possible...or is that beyond you?

amicus...

 

[SummerMorning]

First - here, in the rest of the world, we usually have a good laugh about the stupidity of Americans, followed by a very worried moment, when we consider the number of nuclear weapons and whatnot that these (obviously braindead) Fundamentalists have at their disposal.

Second - regarding science and so forth, there is a very neat concept to be found in the Science of Discworld: "Magic Event Horizon" - essentially, when science or technology gets sufficiently advanced for most people to stop understanding it and begin treating it like magic. For example the PC, the TV, the Car...

 

[ChilledVodkaIV]

Did I forget to mention that gay sex is unnatural (as we all know for a fact) as long as you don't take into account gender and only use sex as markers?

 

[Xelebes]

Sighs...twititus must be in the wind,

Good to see a Roman finally learn to fly.

 

[sun_lover_61]

In South Australia the state schools teach evolution - the private schools teach what they please, which ranges from evolution, through "balanced curricula" through to holy rolling creationism.

I once spoke to a Lutheram headmaster and told him that if I were a science teacher I could not, on principle, teach creationism.

He said, "Well, fuck off then".

No, actually he told me, rather tersely, that I could never get a job at his school.

We all tut-tut at creationism and all those idiots in Kansas, but many South Aussies don't realise the same things are happening right here under their noses.

SL61

 

[rgraham666]

Creationists, like so many people, want to return to 'The Good, Old Days'. Where everything was explained, nothing ever changed and everything had its proper place.

'The Good, Old Days' weren't.

And the only place where there is no change is among the fossils.

 

[Varode]

In parallel, the confidence with which people advocate the 'truth' of evolution can be slightly scary. As I see it, it is a highly probable hypothesis. But to assert genetic reasons for certain personality traits, for instance, or to write about what must have happened x hundred years ago for the horse to be what it is now - notions like these will only ever be well-informed speculative fictions.

patrick

Patrick -- I think you are conflating evolution with sociobiology. Yes, there are few loose ends in the Theory of Evolution, but that does not mean that the overall theory is not quite sound. Creationists pick at a few of these loose ends against evolution, which is like pointing at a loos rivet on a Cessna and saying that this means that all airplanes cannot fly.

One of the problems with Creationism is that for them to ignore the enormous preponderance of evidence for evolution is to imply that God put all those fossils there and is lying to us.

 

[amicus]

Xelebes....flying Romans....that was cute!

 

[amicus]

Summer Morning said: "First - here, in the rest of the world, we usually have a good laugh about the stupidity of Americans, followed by a very worried moment, when we consider the number of nuclear weapons and whatnot that these (obviously braindead) Fundamentalists have at their disposal.

Second - regarding science and so forth, there is a very neat concept to be found in the Science of Discworld: "Magic Event Horizon" - essentially, when science or technology gets sufficiently advanced for most people to stop understanding it and begin treating it like magic. For example the PC, the TV, the Car..."



Why don't you and other non Americans, 'get over it!?" The envy and jealousy expressed as pejorative accusations again America has become so obvious it must be a little embarrassing.

Even with its faults, the United States of America is a safe haven for freedom, the fountainhead of wealth and innovation. We are the holders and defenders of the torch of human freedom in all corners of the world and the first on the scene of natural disasters.

The English speaking countries of England, Canada and Australia who eagerly accepted the leadership of the United States in the depth of world war two, seem to have forgotten that the Japanese were in China and Malaysia and approaching the shores of Australia. That England and the empire was under siege around the world and even the Italians were Fascists.


As for the second paragraph, Summer Morning, that was your attempt at humour, right? That science as it becomes more advanced is viewed as magic by the common folk? You can't really believe your own words? Really? Just how long have you used electricity and driven an automobile. Magic? get real!

amicus the intolerable

 

[SummerMorning]

***Why don't you and other non Americans, 'get over it!?" The envy and jealousy expressed as pejorative accusations again America has become so obvious it must be a little embarrassing.

I wasn't expressing jealousy or envy. I was expressing the fact, that 'over here' things like creationism reinforce a view of Americans as 'rather stupid'. To be honest? I think our system 'over here' is much better and more relaxed and that our standard of living is, on average, a lot higher than yours.

***Even with its faults, the United States of America is a safe haven for freedom, the fountainhead of wealth and innovation. We are ... the first on the scene of natural disasters.

No. You are not. The first. The tsunami in South Asia is a case in point.

***The English speaking countries of England, Canada and Australia who eagerly accepted the leadership of the United States in the depth of world war two, seem to have forgotten that the Japanese were in China and Malaysia and approaching the shores of Australia. That England and the empire was under siege around the world and even the Italians were Fascists.

Yes. The Italians were fascists. And you 'rehabilitated' them to serve as a bulwark against Communism. Very few of their fascist leaders saw any kind of trial for their crimes, because they were more useful alive than in prison (or dead). And I'm not from England or Canada or Australia.

***As for the second paragraph, Summer Morning, that was your attempt at humour, right? That science as it becomes more advanced is viewed as magic by the common folk? You can't really believe your own words? Really? Just how long have you used electricity and driven an automobile. Magic? get real!

It was meant to be vaguely humorous, yes. Well - do you know HOW electricity works? All the way from production to your PC? Do you know HOW your automobile works? Heck, do you know how all the components in your PC work? Can you explain precisely the natural processes behind their functioning? I suppose you can't. I'm not saying it IS magic. I am saying that it is LIKE magic. You push a button and something happens. You know WHAT happens, but not HOW.

 

[amicus]

SummerMorning...


"...***Even with its faults, the United States of America is a safe haven for freedom, the fountainhead of wealth and innovation. We are ... the first on the scene of natural disasters.


Your reply:

"No. You are not. The first. The tsunami in South Asia is a case in point."


I watched complete coverage of that disaster in Asia and from what I recall, military units from a US Naval fleet were first on the scene with helicopters. And although much was made of the 'dollar amount' first tendered by the United States, it turned out that the US Government in general and then the American people in specific donated a much larger amount than any other nation.

There are times, when the ingratitude for the United States, as expressed by you and others, irritates me and I feel called upon to defend.

If you had even a lick of sense you would look around, read a little history and send a warm greeting to Americans all over the world who have done so much for so many over the past century.

One day the generous hand you keep biting may become a fist and put you in your proper place. Or better yet, withdraw and leave you to rot in the third world where you most likely belong anyway.

amicus the american and damned proud of it...Bite me!

 

[Guest]

Why don't you and other non Americans, 'get over it!?" The envy and jealousy expressed as pejorative accusations again America has become so obvious it must be a little embarrassing.

Even with its faults, the United States of America is a safe haven for freedom, the fountainhead of wealth and innovation. We are the holders and defenders of the torch of human freedom in all corners of the world and the first on the scene of natural disasters.

The English speaking countries of England, Canada and Australia who eagerly accepted the leadership of the United States in the depth of world war two, seem to have forgotten that the Japanese were in China and Malaysia and approaching the shores of Australia. That England and the empire was under siege around the world and even the Italians were Fascists.


As for the second paragraph, Summer Morning, that was your attempt at humour, right? That science as it becomes more advanced is viewed as magic by the common folk? You can't really believe your own words? Really? Just how long have you used electricity and driven an automobile. Magic? get real!

amicus the intolerable

There really is no hope, is there?

You just don't "get it" and never will.

I began writing out a lengthy post, but, really, it isn't worth it. Carry on living in your bubble, Amicus, please. You really are quite amusing.

I will just say this: If America is a free country, then I'm the Queen of Sheba. I've had so much fun writing my essay for the free speech contest. I'll let you know when it's posted.

Ever wondered why us Brits never feel the need to harp on about what a brilliant country this is to live in? It's because we know. We know how lucky and privileged we are. We know. We don't need to keep constantly telling others, in an aim to convince ourselves. We aren't insecure. You think we envy you? We mock you. You are the butt of the rest of the world's jokes. Believe it.

Money. It's all about money. And power and control. You need to feel you have it, to validate yourselves on the world stage. You aren't a generous, selfless nation. Everything you do is for your own ends.

If you really cared about the rest of the world, you wouldn't have pulled out of the Kyoto agreement. That's just one example.

Keep it up, Amicus, maybe one day you'll believe in what you keep saying.

Lou