AH - not a safe space

[sr71plt]

Umm, OK. It just seemed incongruous--that anything posted to the AH could upset you if you are happy to read through and post to the GB.

 

[NotWise]

This is why I rarely stop by here anymore.

I guess your response wasn't specific enough for me to understand. Is it the harassment that keeps you away, or is it the nature of the "conversation" here? Or both?

 

[sr71plt]

Yeah, that has me bowled over as well. The GB is a cesspool of hitting on women and just hitting anyone in the nastiest way when compared to the AH. And yet glynndah has her own thread running there at the moment.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I remember the AH as a generally friendlier place when I first wandered here from the SRP, trying to escape lot of behind-the-threads crap. It took me a while to separate the real nastiness from the running jokes, and then it seemed even friendlier. I did run into one poster who had it in for me a while ago, and got pretty nasty with him at times. Found myself getting into a few nasty exchanges after that as well. I'm happy to cut out my nasty personal comments, but I do miss a lot of the old "nasty" humour that was here. I'm not a woman, so I've not been bothered by the gratuitously rude misogynists that seem to plague the ladies, but I do find it, while expectable, deplorable. "Ignore" would seem to be a good approach, both on the board and n the mind.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm not aware of any noticeable misogyny plaguing women posters--certainly not targeting women with misogyny--on the AH in recent years, rude or otherwise. Can you elaborate on that? I can think of a poster who has on rare occasion flipped over here from the GB, but as he posts to the GB constantly, I don't think the presence on the AH can compare in any way.

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I said I haven't seen it; I have just heard of it, and as PM, not on the threads. If it is there, and I have no reason to doubt the women who complain of it, then it is deplorable. If it were out in the open, I expect most of us here would respond strongly.

 

[sr71plt]

If it were on the AH and deplorable, wouldn't it have been seen by many and remembered by some? So, who remembers it appearing on the AH?

 

[Tio_Narratore]

I have a feeling you're not quite following me, Pilot. No, I haven't seen any on the AH, and I'm pleased by that. I have no problem with the AH. I'm just saying that if women are receiving abusive PMs, it's deplorable.

 

[sr71plt]

Oh, OK, this thread is about what appears on the AH. There indeed are back-channel chats--both by PM and sometimes on chat boards elsewhere--and I've seen them referred to as far back as when I started posting to the forum. In the last year, a regular would post with great glee to the AH, for instance, of what was being discussed in a group about me elsewhere--but that sort of stopped when he was dumped by the group himself and they no doubt started talking about him elsewhere.

This sort of stuff goes on all across the Internet, I would guess.

I'm just happy that it was confirmed that putting someone on ignore cut the PM link. I've got several folks on ignore that I hope have been PMing to me without effect.

 

[legerdemer]

Fwiw

For what it's worth, I've not experienced any rude or demeaning behavior on the AH. I have kept my flirting very low key, but even in a past incarnation that was more interactive, I've not experienced the kind of issues Naoko mentions. Several reasons might include my purposely nondescript moniker, and the fact that I posted my age bracket on the story side, so I may be in that invisible class. Very occasionally I've had PMs but they've been polite and non-insistent. Thank you, gentlemen, for ignoring me, oh no, behaving so nicely. Seriously.

On the other hand, I don't doubt the behavior Naoko mentions, but agree there are some obvious solutions - at least in the short run. Should those fail, I'd likely go ballistic.

No one should have to deal with rude, thoughtless, invasive people. But this is not a fairy tale world, in or outside Lit. Hell, as a teenager I was flashed often enough by creepy men on my way to school - I still had to walk there. I'm by no means blaming the victim. I'm simply suggesting that the world is not always logical, kind, reasonable, or polite.

To women out there who feel attacked or stalked, like Naoko, I'd be happy to give any solidarity and advice I can.

 

[sr71plt]

I have some female accounts here that I write under (but don't post to the forum under). I got a few mash note PMs each time one of them was initiated, which I responded to with a "too late" message--saying I was 75 and weighed 230. Didn't hear from any of them again.

Truth be told I get mash notes from men on my sr71plt account too, and essentially the same response works--saying "50 years ago would have been nice, but . . ."

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Golly gee, I can fertilize a farm with the comments posted here.

AH was never a nice place but it hosted some great participants. Of them all I miss JENNY JACKSON the most. She blistered anyone who asked, WHEN WILL MY STORY GO UP. And AMICUS kept the board on fire.

The attitude here was STFU if youre a noob.

The GB is the PLAYGROUND and about as limp as many here.

 

[oggbashan]

Whether the AH is better or worse than it was? I think that's irrelevant to the main point of Naoko's original post - that nowhere on the internet is "safe".

It is sensible to try to have a barrier between your internet life and your offline person, wherever you are on the internet. The security of most sites isn't as good as it should be and most are vulnerable to determined hackers.

Apart from the threat of hacking, anyone can join Literotica. There is no vetting. The next poster you see might have serious problems and be a threat to you, whether a virtual threat on line, or a physical threat to you in person.

As oggbashan I have had very few obxious PMs. As jeanne_d_artois, before I admitted that I AM jeanne_d_artois, I had some sexual approaches and some abuse. "She" still gets one or two a year despite her bio.

In general I think Literotica IS a safe place, as far as the internet goes. But compared with my local real life community? Literotica is the Wild West with baddies stalking the streets and bullets flying around at random.

A few weeks ago the local papers' (yes that is a plural) had headlines about vandals pulling plants out of the communal flower beds. Would that be a headline where you live? The vandals, being actively sought by our local police, are thought to be a few 10-year-old girls. Would they be a police priority for your local force?

Note: According to the local papers, the damage was repaired by 11 o'clock the next morning by "a coordinated community effort". More press hyperbole. It was three ladies from our 'Town in Bloom' committee.

Literotica, and the Authors' Hangout, are reasonably safe places to be - as long as you take reasonable precautions and don't respond to the trolls. The ignore function can be a useful tool to avoid some of the idiots.

Naoko is right to say that you should be careful. But if you are, you can enjoy yourself.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

There is one thing that I don't get...

Believing someone can track you down in the real world via a bulletin board forum. Virtually impossible. I say virtually only because there are those out there in internetland who will freely give out their personal information, which is completely idiotic.

Every time someone has threatened be with that, I laughed, then I told them I laughed, then I told them to come on by, I have my 12gauge all loaded just for them. Of course I never heard from then in RL and they eventually quit online as well when the figured out I knew they were stupid.

As for me, I was brought up in an era where you were polite to women. You opened the door for them, you let them enter first and you never, ever, used bad language while they were in the room. Of course after they left the room you were free to cuss out their boyfriend or husband for being a jerk.

So ladies, remember a saying from the days of old...

Sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me.

Someone calls me a name, I laugh. I might call them a name right back only because I know it will cause them to foam at the mouth like the rabid dog they are. But as far as the names they call me...I've probably heard worse in RL and I laughed at those even harder.

As for tracking you down via Lit, unless they have hacked the site and can read IP addresses, they can not track you down from your posts. Never, ever give anyone her you RL info.

Telling everyone I live in Houston, TX. means nothing. Houston is the 4th largest city in the US. I have also lived in the Chicago, the 3rd largest city in the US. So let them find me here...impossible.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

. . .

Recently this has been a more comfortable place to post.
. . .

However, I admit I was pleased when a new writer confessed to me recently that she didn't feel AH is a safe space.

Nowhere in the adult world, out on the internet, is a safe space.

. . .nobody should have to suffer sexual harassment - it is quite irrelevant what context you are in. I edit for a lot of guys and OK, I sometimes flirt a bit by mutual agreement, but my focus is on getting their writing sorted. Can you imagine what any of them would say if I started asking for nude pictures?

Although rules against harassment are important, they can often just drive it underground. I believe the best way to combat harassment is to encourage the people it happens to, to tell them their uncomfortable feelings are spot-on, that they can get good editorial support without having to give up naked pictures, for Chrissake, and they should just tell jerks like that to F*ck Off.

I'm glad you posted this, Naoko. Suffering in silence is suffering twice. We're apparently from the same AH era. There are voices who have abandoned (or nearly abandoned) AH. The amount of snark is amazing.

I can't imagine what it's like to be a woman on the internet. (The harassing of women gamers comes to mind.) I'd like to believe we're in a period of transition as bullies are called out for being what they are. It's easy to brand the people calling foul as "victims" in a negative sense, however, I believe those crying foul are every bit as strong (or stronger) as the bullies.

As NotWise points out, this forum does seem filled with an overabundance of senior contributors who filled threads with their one-upmanship while adding little to the conversation. Heck, I nearly didn't reply to this thread after seeing the chain of regulars.

I don't think "ignore" is as magical as has been suggested. Seeing "This message is hidden because [this person] is on your ignore list" can make a thread feel rather empty. Besides, I'm a curious person, and even though I know that blocked person probably hasn't added to the conversation, my curiosity always gets the best of me.

I reserve the ignore feature for a select few that have nothing to add. The rest I just ignore by skimming over their comments for anything of substance and never addressing them directly.

Besides, recommending using "ignore" or blocking a person doesn't feel as if it addresses your original thought: Guys, stop sexually harassing girls. And: Girls, don't put up with it!

 

[NOIRTRASH]

Poor things

 

[AKentuckyLady]

Being new to the Lit boards...as I obviously am...

I think if a woman has had experience in other chat rooms, message boards, or forums, she'll be okay here. You do have to have a thick skin and a sense of humor to be able to withstand some of the onslaught of PM's.

As OP noted, even on a Mommy forum, things can get ugly. I've been posting for less than 10 days here and already have blocked several persistent males who just don't seem to get that I'm not interested. If someone approaches me with intelligence, wit, and and sincere PM, I'll respond and let them know I'm flattered, but they should move along.

If someone new to this were to have their first experience in Lit, I think it would be potentially damaging. Not only because it takes awhile to build up that thicker skin, but because some of the nastier, aggressive posters could inadvertently be teaching a newbie that this is acceptable, in fact admirable, behavior. And then eventually, they move along, taking that first impression with them to other boards. It spreads like a virus.

I've glanced at a few other categories here (and slammed the door behind me on GB as fast as I could), and I do think AH is quieter. I feel safer here than I do just about everywhere else. Or that could be due to the fact that I don't feel I need to post links to every sexual image I come across, leave inviting messages with heavy sexual undertones, or tease the men here unmercifully and then cry, "Oh, I'm being bombarded with sexual harassment!"

So <shrug> for what it's worth, I see both points of view. I tend to lean to the "if it bothers you, block; if you're concerned for your safety, leave" way of thinking.

 

[Learin]

I find it hard to believe that someone, without making me click an external link, can track me down. And, even if it were to happen, the most you can know is that I'm using a Chrome browser and the IP address of the nearest WiFi hotspot.

I've had my share of creeps and asshats but none of them were "threatening". Just some harmless mouth-breathing horndogs. Some of the most persistent fuckers could be ignored with a single click, so I've got nothing to worry about there either.

It's a shame to see people getting scared from words. Like Zeb said, words can't do anything. It all boils down to how people themselves make of the situation - being the one in control or being the one under control.

On the internetz, I choose to be the fucking queen.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Believing someone can track you down in the real world via a bulletin board forum. Virtually impossible. I say virtually only because there are those out there in internetland who will freely give out their personal information, which is completely idiotic.

I'm bright and a bit of a fanatic about anonymity. I take it seriously and I'm knowledgeable about how information leaks. I'll tell you two true stories.

One of my friends - I met her via Lit - got curious about who I was, and got tired of only knowing a first name and a region. (To be blunt, in those days she was crushing on me). I talked to her often but was extremely careful. But I mentioned, at one point, the *first name* of a friend and which school she'd recently attended.

The first name was not all that unusual, but it turned only only one person with that name had graduated from that school in the last few years. Now she had a first and last name, a general location and my first name. Given facebook, that was enough to out me.

A number of years ago, I was active on another site and as part of a running joke I gave fairly regular weather reports for my area. Not highly detailed, mostly precipitation. I also had a hardcore stalker. She watched weather maps and did a process of elimination scheme which I later found out had eventually narrowed me down to a three town area. She was deeply persistent and I think very lucky, but the reality is her scheme was working. Someone finally tipped me off about her and I don't think she had enough to identify me, but it was as creepy and psychotic an experience as I've ever wanted.

But the reality is, if you interact with people, information gets out. Someone willing to put in the effort and collate it will eventually get what they want. To be successfully anonymous you have to lie about your name, age, friends names and work. If you're lying about all that there's not a lot of reason to interact at all.

Now add the possibility of a site getting hacked. Maybe you've only given sensitive information to trusted friends in PMs... but if they get hacked, what happens?

You'd think people would have learned from Ashley Madison, but people don't learn. If you are online and anonymous, your anonymity will eventually be breached if someone is persistent and patient enough. You can use Tor to your heart's content - the problem isn't technological lapses, it's your own mouth and fingers.

 

[TxRad]

The hack of Ashley Madison is a whole other thing in which credit card information and personal information was leaked. None of that information is available at Lit. Hacking Lit wouldn't get anyone anything of importance.

 

[NOIRTRASH]

I suspect all the hacking is done by employees...government and corporate...who sell the info to major corporations.

30 years ago I hadda clerk who sold our files to competitors. I reported my suspicion but nothing happened till after I gave her bullshit numbers. Then I got a phone call from the competitor wanting to know what in fuck I was doing with the bad numbers. I told them they were bastards and they told corporate headquarters I was trying to sell them the info. But I had already told corporate about the clerk (her husband worked for the competitor).

Hospital clerks sell info all the time.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I'm bright and a bit of a fanatic about anonymity. I take it seriously and I'm knowledgeable about how information leaks. I'll tell you two true stories.

One of my friends - I met her via Lit - got curious about who I was, and got tired of only knowing a first name and a region. (To be blunt, in those days she was crushing on me). I talked to her often but was extremely careful. But I mentioned, at one point, the *first name* of a friend and which school she'd recently attended.

The first name was not all that unusual, but it turned only only one person with that name had graduated from that school in the last few years. Now she had a first and last name, a general location and my first name. Given facebook, that was enough to out me.

A number of years ago, I was active on another site and as part of a running joke I gave fairly regular weather reports for my area. Not highly detailed, mostly precipitation. I also had a hardcore stalker. She watched weather maps and did a process of elimination scheme which I later found out had eventually narrowed me down to a three town area. She was deeply persistent and I think very lucky, but the reality is her scheme was working. Someone finally tipped me off about her and I don't think she had enough to identify me, but it was as creepy and psychotic an experience as I've ever wanted.

But the reality is, if you interact with people, information gets out. Someone willing to put in the effort and collate it will eventually get what they want. To be successfully anonymous you have to lie about your name, age, friends names and work. If you're lying about all that there's not a lot of reason to interact at all.

Now add the possibility of a site getting hacked. Maybe you've only given sensitive information to trusted friends in PMs... but if they get hacked, what happens?

You'd think people would have learned from Ashley Madison, but people don't learn. If you are online and anonymous, your anonymity will eventually be breached if someone is persistent and patient enough. You can use Tor to your heart's content - the problem isn't technological lapses, it's your own mouth and fingers.

And there you have exactly what I was talking about...you gave yourself away.

TxRad - yes you are most likely correct as US IP's are in most cases not static. But you could narrow them down to a city and in some cases a part of a city. Lit only stores the information you provide in your profile so it is true a hacker won't get much more then they can just by looking at your profile.

 

[sr71plt]

In the realm of "write what you know," if you write a lot of "write from experience" stories to Lit., it's possible for the persistent to track you down. A regular here did that with me--put the stories and forum posts together (and what was available at the time on line in true name) and ID'd me off line in e-mails. Which, in one dimension, is amusing since there are those here who have claimed my Lit. persona is all lies. Well, if they are, how could someone have . . . ?

 

[HandsInTheDark]

And there you have exactly what I was talking about...you gave yourself away

I did, but that's my point. People do.

Hacking lit just gives up IP addresses and times, right? Hm, your ip says you live in Stoneham, ma. Except wait, you posted from chicago in July and October, 3 days each. Hm, on the dates of a defense contractor convention there. You mentioned electronics twice in your stories... I just got a real good guess where you work. In a pm you mentioned your pos ford got in a fender bender yesterday, but you can't afford to repair this week...

Now I'm in your parking lot at work, watching you get out of a dented up 2001 ford with fresh exposed metal. Oh look, you have a lone star state bumper sticker and two of your stories were set in Texas twenty years ago.

All I had was access to Lit, but you write pro-gay stories, and my father came out of the closet and deserted my family when I was 8... Now you car's on fire, and wait until you see what I've got planned tomorrow, father fucker.

Far fetched? Sure. Possible? Yes. Luck and patience are all it takes.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I did, but that's my point. People do.

Hacking lit just gives up IP addresses and times, right? Hm, your ip says you live in Stoneham, ma. Except wait, you posted from chicago in July and October, 3 days each. Hm, on the dates of a defense contractor convention there. You mentioned electronics twice in your stories... I just got a real good guess where you work. In a pm you mentioned your pos ford got in a fender bender yesterday, but you can't afford to repair this week...

Now I'm in your parking lot at work, watching you get out of a dented up 2001 ford with fresh exposed metal. Oh look, you have a lone star state bumper sticker and two of your stories were set in Texas twenty years ago.

All I had was access to Lit, but you write pro-gay stories, and my father came out of the closet and deserted my family when I was 8... Now you car's on fire, and wait until you see what I've got planned tomorrow, father fucker.

Far fetched? Sure. Possible? Yes. Luck and patience are all it takes.

So, after all I have said about myself, come find me.

Just so you know, I use a VPN that routes via several countries of the world.