AH - not a safe space

[Handley_Page]

Nowhere in the adult world, out on the internet, is a safe space.
Even Mumsnet has some b!tchy trolls, I’ve seen things said on there to young women in difficult situations that were just horrible.

As usual, Duchess, you raise some interesting points.
I'd be interested to know what the "non-bitchy trolls" said upon seeing examples of what is, after all, rude behaviour. It would be nice to think that the "normal" mums all rounded on the bitchy troll and gave her a good piece of their minds [any more and it's 'banned'];l however, given the reluctance of the majority to join in with such things, I suspect they just shut up and watched, reluctant to get involved.

As to staying anonymous, it's rare to manage it if the would-be stalker is really determined.
An author, who lived in the South, used facebook & twitter to identify a young female in Scotland who'd written a critique of his work. He was sufficiently peeved to go to Scotland and hit her over the head with a wine bottle, resulting to injuries requiring medical attention.
He'll be sentenced when the shrinks have talked to him I understand.

The thing that really peeves me about the AH is the ease with which Member A can incite real spleen in Member B and the next few pages are full of illogical and half-assumed junk; put away the handbags, - PLEASE.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Poor things

Y'know, I get the humor of this comment. It's your personal brand of sarcasm that's often witty, entertaining, and seldom duplicated with the same level of acidity charm.

Additionally, I know there are some who come across as being overly sensitive. Guess I'm curious when "But it was just a joke!" ceases to be a valid defense.

Don't ask me, because I don't know. The P.C. Police piss me off more often than they enlighten me.

Still, there's a time and place for everything. Asking if a burn victim gets a discount at the crematorium is funny as hell on a comedy stage, but vastly inappropriate if asked at the funeral for a deceased burn victim.

It makes me shiver whenever a woman mentions the kinds of PMs they get on a regular basis. Some guys really are slimeballs.

 

[sr71plt]

I laugh at the thought that posting so much chivalry and sensitivity can be just another form of hitting on women.

I've seen some expressing such solidarity with women previously posting downright sleazy forum sex with them on the AH in the past.

 

[karaline]

I've seen some expressing such solidarity with women previously posting downright sleazy forum sex with them on the AH in the past.

But surely the key concept relevant to this thread is consent? If a woman chooses to get into a 'sleazy' conversation on a forum does that automatically absolve her of any right to voice an opinion about boundaries at any other time?

If someone chooses to interact in a flirty way on one occasion it does it mean she is inviting everyone in the world to contact her and say what they like/send her photos of their dick/proposition her the rest of the time? (I assume this happens to men as well as women on occasion too)

 

[lovecraft68]

But surely the key concept relevant to this thread is consent? If a woman chooses to get into a 'sleazy' conversation on a forum does that automatically absolve her of any right to voice an opinion about boundaries at any other time?

If someone chooses to interact in a flirty way on one occasion it does it mean she is inviting everyone in the world to contact her and say what they like/send her photos of their dick/proposition her the rest of the time? (I assume this happens to men as well as women on occasion too)

Good points and it goes back to a post I made previously about it equating to real life.

She's flirting/dancing with that guy, so she better flirt dance with me...

And there is another factor. Jealousy. There are many men here-and I am sure some women as well, but it seems to be more male behavior- who get pissed off if a woman who has shown no interest in playing around, flirting, or talking to them is flirty and playful with someone else.

Then they feel as if they have a right to start attacking the woman as a slut simply because for whatever reason there is no interest there.

I recall a very nasty PM I received from someone who had never posted in the AH, but must have read threads there, saying I 'better stop' flirting on the threads with a female poster he seemed to somehow think should only be posting with him.

Someone previously said 'desperate' in this thread. That and pathetic really sums up some of the creepers here.

Oh, and one more point. You used the word consent. That is a foreign concept to many men here and its an ideal perpetuated in many ways throughout the site.

The person you quoted pretty much said on the previous page any woman posting here deserves what they get.

 

[karaline]

I recall a very nasty PM I received from someone who had never posted in the AH, but must have read threads there, saying I 'better stop' flirting on the threads with a female poster he seemed to somehow think should only be posting with him.

Interesting, now I think about i only ever got PM's from people who don't really have a posting history, and never from people who i've in anyway interacted with with on the forums.

Shortly after I started being active on the AH I figured out how to set myself to invisible, I was pretty much getting a PM from some random or another every time I logged in, Now its rare, in fact I think its only happened twice in the 12 months since I changed to invisible (Yay!)

 

[sr71plt]

But surely the key concept relevant to this thread is consent? If a woman chooses to get into a 'sleazy' conversation on a forum does that automatically absolve her of any right to voice an opinion about boundaries at any other time?

If someone chooses to interact in a flirty way on one occasion it does it mean she is inviting everyone in the world to contact her and say what they like/send her photos of their dick/proposition her the rest of the time? (I assume this happens to men as well as women on occasion too)

The problem there is anyone but her knowing where the lines of consent are (which she might be putting on a sliding scale and making the call even more problematic). It's a real problem, and I think it's the crux of the matter. And the biggest problem is her assuming--which has come to us through the women's lib movement--that it's all the other guy's responsibility to figure that out. It's just not realistic.

You can't have your cake and say you don't eat cake at the same time. But that's what's being demanded.

The way I approach it is to not flirt on the AH at all. Then no one can turn on a dime and decide that's not what they wanted.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Some simple things to consider, which some of you seem to be missing:

1. Guys hit on girls. Always have, always will. For people vague on the concept, this is because guys want sex (no, really, they do) and females rarely walk up to male strangers and say "hey, want some of this?" So guys have learned they have to ask for what they want, and their odds of success go up if they ask persistently.

2. The difference between a creep and a gentleman is largely a matter of grace and timing. (Lesser factors, but not to be ignored, are income level and what part of the cycle the woman is in.) Many guys fail at Grace and Timing and hope to get lucky with the lesser factors because it's all the hope they've got, and evolutionary forces dictate they keep trying even against pathetic odds. This isn't going to stop and women need to recognise that; getting the vapors in public over a picture of a cock, however rude, just lets guys know they're getting a reaction. It's a fair bet the OP will get additional unwanted attention now.

3. Women don't have to put up with anything they don't want to. There are a variety of effective tools available, starting with Ignore and email filters for online, moving up to restraining orders and possession of a sidearm for those more public venues. Women should feel free to say No, and if they have to say it more than a couple times, to bring more forceful refusals to bear. Politeness is not required.

We're authors on an erotica site. Some of you talk like you've never had to deal with the other gender. It's not always pretty, but it's part of being human. So deal.

(Don't ask me what hitting on women over the internet is all about. She's probably at least 500 miles away, and 5,000 isn't unlikely. Your dick isn't that long, so give up and try a local bar, k?)

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Some simple things to consider, which some of you seem to be missing:

1. Guys hit on girls. Always have, always will. For people vague on the concept, this is because guys want sex (no, really, they do) and females rarely walk up to male strangers and say "hey, want some of this?" So guys have learned they have to ask for what they want, and their odds of success go up if they ask persistently.

Agreed. And I would add that most guys are horrible at reading between the lines, too. We tend to be literal (sometimes simple) minded creatures. Nothing says "No" like, well, "No!" That includes, "I'm not in the mood," which I believe most guys should accept as a "No," but it also suggests the challenge of, "Well, maybe I can help you get in the mood." Sort of like how saying "I have a headache" isn't a very good brush off. A) Science has demonstrated that sex can help relieve a headache. B) I own a big bottle of aspirin. Take two and I'll wait half an hour,

2. The difference between a creep and a gentleman is largely a matter of grace and timing. (Lesser factors, but not to be ignored, are income level and what part of the cycle the woman is in.) Many guys fail at Grace and Timing and hope to get lucky with the lesser factors because it's all the hope they've got, and evolutionary forces dictate they keep trying even against pathetic odds. This isn't going to stop and women need to recognise that; getting the vapors in public over a picture of a cock, however rude, just lets guys know they're getting a reaction. It's a fair bet the OP will get additional unwanted attention now.

Somehow, I doubt NaokoSmith will get any attention that she can't handle. I think she's tough like that. Still, I don't think I can agree with the premise that "all things being equal. . ." Is flirting automatically an invitation? For a guy, I guess it is (see your comment above), but for a woman? I don't think that's necessarily true.

Besides, what constitutes flirting? Talking back to a guy? Smiling in his direction? Twisting a lock of hair while coying glancing away and maintain an open posture with her arms? It's a dance some guys do very poorly.

3. Women don't have to put up with anything they don't want to. There are a variety of effective tools available, starting with Ignore and email filters for online, moving up to restraining orders and possession of a sidearm for those more public venues. Women should feel free to say No, and if they have to say it more than a couple times, to bring more forceful refusals to bear. Politeness is not required.

Really? No, really? Come on, haven't you seen the video of a woman walking down the street wearing yoga pants? What's your answer? "Don't wear yoga pants, because then you're just asking for it." How about this? "Do be a lecherous dick to a chick wearing yoga pants."

I doubt you're the type of guy who would send a woman an unsolicited dick pic, but saying "Women don't have to put up with anything they don't want to" comes across as a naive at best. Does participating in an adult forum automatically entitle a woman to all the dick pics she can collect? If so, then world's a much sadder place than I ever imagined.

Yes, there are dickheads without a sense of decorum who think, "Oh, she's on this site, so that must means she wants it." Those guys are one of three things: a dickhead, an idiot, or an asshole. They're probably all three.

The only women online who are constantly wet and always need it I suspect all charge by the minute for hot conversation or cam time.

We're authors on an erotica site. Some of you talk like you've never had to deal with the other gender. It's not always pretty, but it's part of being human. So deal.

Yep, some guys are constantly trolling for another notch on their bedpost. And yes, women SHOULD be more vocal about drawing a line in the sand when a guy steps out of line. Heck, there might even be a nice guy hiding behind that dick pic who just doesn't know any better. But more than likely, he's dickhead, idiot, or asshole. Just sayin'.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

I've dealt with a lot of men, in banking and finance although I was in the so-called 'economic research' department.

What have I learned about men?

The number of times I have encountered any man/male looking for money/capital finance/etc, that has impressed me with their sheer brilliance, wit, intellect, subtlety, self-humour, and ethical substance and lack of over-estimation of self is...

...never.

Wonder what it could be like for women encountering men motivated by sex.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

Correction. There were a couple of instances in which young guys, accidentally in earshot, had more potential than the adults. And I wonder if adult society twists people up in very negative ways.

It's certainly not true either, that women are without fault or blameless in these matters on their own account. All in all I don't believe society has 'worked it out' yet. Not by a long shot.

The beauty of writing is that you can alter and edit your words and in the end make things sound reasonably seamless.

But then, this is still not necessarily reflective of 'real' reality, in which some of the best 'lines' amount to: 'eeeerrrgghhh, blllbbbb, mmmrr, agh fuck, burnt me mouth/stubbed me toe/jammed me finger. Yeouch! ...mutha fuckin' fuckin fuck fuck fffuck.'

 

[NotWise]

I remain confused over what Naoko may have wanted from this thread. I await enlightenment.

What I see -- aside from the boringly repetitive posts by people who know each other and continue to assault each other's opinions when there is nothing to gain -- is mostly men believing that they have the right to be offensive while the few women who are willing to say anything at all are being confusingly ambivalent. Same ol', same ol'.

Honestly, I think I've written this same rant elsewhere before. The sense of de ja vu is hard to ignore.

So Naoko, what's the problem? I'm going to grind my boot heel into the high desert dust and wait for an answer.

 

[LadyVer]

Some simple things to consider, which some of you seem to be missing:

...
3. Women don't have to put up with anything they don't want to. There are a variety of effective tools available, starting with Ignore and email filters for online, moving up to restraining orders and possession of a sidearm for those more public venues. Women should feel free to say No, and if they have to say it more than a couple times, to bring more forceful refusals to bear. Politeness is not required.)

Women should feel free to say no. They should be able to voice their opinions. What happens on line, on Lit, and on the AH, is that when women voice their opinions, some men seem to think that they can say a) the woman is an idiot (because women are idiots), b) the woman must be a lesbian because how could a straight woman have an opinion that means anything, and c) women deserve what they get, especially when her profile name is FukMeSilly.

 

[sr71plt]

- is mostly men believing that they have the right to be offensive while the few women who are willing to say anything at all are being confusingly ambivalent. Same ol', same ol'.

And what I see is you boringly repeating gross exaggerations. so I guess I don't see you as being as special as you come across seeing yourself.

 

[sr71plt]

Women should feel free to say no. They should be able to voice their opinions. What happens on line, on Lit, and on the AH, is that when women voice their opinions, some men seem to think that they can say a) the woman is an idiot (because women are idiots), b) the woman must be a lesbian because how could a straight woman have an opinion that means anything, and c) women deserve what they get, especially when her profile name is FukMeSilly.

Again, can you point out where this is regularly being done on the AH? This thread is about the AH.

You don't see women doing it equally to men? Aren't you exaggerating in the other direction? You don't see this being done to men as a group even on this thread?

That would be interesting. I'd see it as a case of myopia, but there seems to be a lot of it going on on this thread.

 

[AKentuckyLady]

(Lesser factors, but not to be ignored, are income level and what part of the cycle the woman is in.) )

I'm sorry that every woman you have encountered is after your wallet while trying to gobble chocolate and scream at you to go run down to the corner store to buy her tampons.

 

[LadyVer]

Again, can you point out where this is regularly being done on the AH? This thread is about the AH.

You don't see women doing it equally to men? Aren't you exaggerating in the other direction?

No, I don't see women on the AH telling men they are idiots, that they deserve what they get, or that they must be gay because they have a different opinion. I've lost count of how many times you've said my brain is the size of a pea. I don't recall your saying that to men on the AH, but maybe I missed it.

 

[sr71plt]

I'm sorry that every woman you have encountered is after your wallet while trying to gobble chocolate and scream at you to go run down to the corner store to buy her tampons.

I just see that exaggeration as being offset by Desiremakesmeweak's posts to the thread.

 

[NotWise]

And what I see is you boringly repeating gross exaggerations. so I guess I don't see you as being as special as you come across seeing yourself.

Fair enough, I suppose.

 

[legerdemer]

I remain confused over what Naoko may have wanted from this thread. I await enlightenment.
....
-- is mostly men believing that they have the right to be offensive while the few women who are willing to say anything at all are being confusingly ambivalent. Same ol', same ol'.

....

So Naoko, what's the problem? I'm going to grind my boot heel into the high desert dust and wait for an answer.

NotWise, it's my turn to be confused - what about my post, for example, was ambivalent? Please let me know - I only wish to be ambivalent on purpose.

Referring to your statement "same ol' same ol'" I'm pretty sure you'll agree it was rather condescending.

Finally, I won't speak for Naoko, who started this thread. But I took two major points out of her post - 1) women should be circumspect in dealing with men on the AH, and 2) men should try to be civil and contain their baser instincts (if/when) they have them, in their dealings with with both each other and women.

Clarity of communication is key. Protect yourself by not giving out too much information. Feeling free to say no to clearly to unwanted attentions is key. But if rude behavior persists, seek some help from others (other women, Laurel, or men you trust). What's confusing about that?

 

[sr71plt]

Thanks for one of the few balanced posts I see on this thread of late. The "discussion" seems to be hardening and separating increasingly widely.

Also, I didn't think that Naoko was speaking for herself but from a discussion with another poster. And, although she gauged this to behavior on the AH, what I see coming back is mostly behavior outside of the AH. I keep asking for examples of it on the AH. And I think unwanted attention can be cut off--both on the AH and in PMs with the ignore system given here and that e-mails can be blocked.

 

[NotWise]

NotWise, it's my turn to be confused - what about my post, for example, was ambivalent? Please let me know - I only wish to be ambivalent on purpose.

I'm sorry, I enjoyed your post, but did I refer to your post specifically?

Referring to your statement "same ol' same ol'" I'm pretty sure you'll agree it was rather condescending.

I didn't intend it to be condescending, but you could be right. Honestly though, in the internet world I've been involved in news lists, mailing lists. multi-user domains and bulletin board forums since 1995. I've heard the same complaints from women over and over. "Women" are a very diverse group and their responses are not homogeneous. I can sympathize, but the complaints tend to get old after awhile. I don't dispute that there is a problem. I would like to see a solution -- a hint of a solution, or even a realistic suggestion.

For what it's worth, I don't think that adult men dealing with adult women is really our biggest problem. I was a "God" once in a multi-user domain when a predator set on a naive and fragile 16-year old boy.

I rather hoped that when Naoko brought it up she had something more specific in mind than the repeated, general complaint.

Finally, I won't speak for Naoko, who started this thread. But I took two major points out of her post - 1) women should be circumspect in dealing with men on the AH, and 2) men should try to be civil and contain their baser instincts (if/when) they have them, in their dealings with with both each other and women.

Clarity of communication is key. Protect yourself by not giving out too much information. Feeling free to say no to clearly to unwanted attentions is key. But if rude behavior persists, seek some help from others (other women, Laurel, or men you trust). What's confusing about that?

To me, that's not confusing at all. I hope that Naoko agrees with your summary. I also don't see that there's much that can be done systematically to fix the problems.

 

[Handley_Page]

Women should feel free to say no. They should be able to voice their opinions. What happens on line, on Lit, and on the AH, is that when women voice their opinions, some men seem to think that they can say:
a) the woman is an idiot (because women are idiots),
b) the woman must be a lesbian because how could a straight woman have an opinion that means anything, and
c) women deserve what they get, especially when her profile name is FukMeSilly.

I think that the problem is that there's no such thing as a course in "Internet problems & how to avoid them". This leads to such blissful ignorance and the oft-resulting resulting hurt.
Any member should be confident enough to say "NO"; but by the same token, the receiver of such a rejection should be adult enough to accept it.

Finally, I won't speak for Naoko, who started this thread. But I took two major points out of her post - 1) women should be circumspect in dealing with men on the AH, and 2) men should try to be civil and contain their baser instincts (if/when) they have them, in their dealings with with both each other and women.

Clarity of communication is key. Protect yourself by not giving out too much information. Feeling free to say no to clearly to unwanted attentions is key. But if rude behavior persists, seek some help from others (other women, Laurel, or men you trust). What's confusing about that?

I agree.

 

[pfflyerhot]

Well...

I, for one, am quite enjoying my visit into the *seems-fine-to-me* Authors' Hangout tonight. I'm not a regular... I pop in, willy-nilly... find it a smart kind of place... I can pretty much count on being charmed, nodding in agreement with, laughing...like a delayed reaction laughing... then, it's really funny—that kind of laughing, and also laughter of confusion. Of not knowing what the hell is going on. What was I saying..? Oh yeah... Neon? Mr. Subtlety... he'd be my personal AH mascot/dude... I guess, if I had to name one right here, right now.
The forum... this one here... the AH? It's a meaty one. That's what I like about it. You guys get down to the nitty gritty in here. Yes... right on it.
That's all... engaged in your forum tonight. Thanks for doing it.

 

[HandsInTheDark]

Really? No, really? Come on, haven't you seen the video of a woman walking down the street wearing yoga pants? What's your answer? "Don't wear yoga pants, because then you're just asking for it." How about this? "Do be a lecherous dick to a chick wearing yoga pants." .

My answer is everyone has to put on big person pants (yoga or otherwise) and deal. Men and women are both capable of being incredibly prickish to each other. So?

Yes, there will be men who are rude to women wearing form fitting lycra. Assholes happen. And there are women who will cash in on some men's gullibility. Bitches happen. But that's the way it is. If you're sufficiently sensitive to male comments that you can't cope in public when you get them, maybe yoga pants are a bad choice for you. If you're sufficiently unable to tell a manipulative golddigger from honest affection, maybe you need to confine your dating options to trusted friends. Everyone has to adapt to the world they live in because it's not going to adapt to them.

Maybe it sounds harsh, but the alternative is worse. Just today i read about some college girl who filed a sexual misconduct report against a professor. He wasn't being sensitive enough to the issue of abused women. What did he do that was so awful? He assigned some reading material to the class, without formally warning them that the material contained a nonconsensual sexual act.

The material was Metamorphoses, by Ovid. The nonconsent bit was IIRC Daphne (and the sex never quite happened, unless Apollo got some unrecorded splinters for his efforts.)

I mean for pity's sake. We don't hold historic works to modern standards; Daphne wasn't even a real person; and if you're unaware that ancient epics contain a fair amount of sketchy sex, you probably should not have made it to college. If you can't handle the fact that historic and mythic accounts contain nonconsent sex, you have an issue, not the professor.