Americans favor Sanders over Trump

[BotanyBoy]

France and Italy have not failed and are not failing and are not socialist, only to some extent social-democratic; the difference is important.

Uh...they absolutely are socialist, and they haven't failed but they aren't exactly doing great. If the US so much as farted in their general direction they would have millions starving by the end of the week.

No the difference is not important. Mob ruling vs. some other class doesn't make it inherently better for any particular person. At the end of the day it's still the government making sure nobody gets to put food on their table or a roof over their head without prior government approval and control.

Venezuela is something a lot nearer to socialist, and for them it don't work so good,

They are a lot nearer to communism, they are absolutely socialist and socialism that far left hasn't ever worked well for anyone.

but social democracy works just fine.

No.....not really, even that flavor of socialism is quite lame, it's just less murderous and spectacularly implosive as it's communist/fascist relatives.

 

[HisArpy]

France and Italy have not failed and are not failing and are not socialist, only to some extent social-democratic; the difference is important. Venezuela is something a lot nearer to socialist, and for them it don't work so good, but social democracy works just fine.

So your own statements that Socialism is wonderful and has NEVER FAILED is now contradicted by your own statements that it doesn't work so good and, for Venezuela, it HAS failed?

At some point even you have to see that your bullshit is transcendent to reality.

 

[richard_daily]

Because it makes you rich!! A 1%'er!!

You should give all of it away to the poor and move into a 30,000 dollar single wide or studio apartment and give the rest of your wealth to those less fortunate.

That's what Sanders preaches.

But not what Sanders lives.....

I'm not even a 10%er... much less a 1%er.

Socialists aren't about giving away what you have, it's about a level playing field, where oligarchs and plutocrats aren't allowed to steal elections and run our economy into the ground so that they and their friends make money.

I'm not for equal outcome, but I AM for equal opportunity. We don't have that right now, not by a long shot. We have a caste system that isn't much different from the one in India. The poor stay poor, and the rich get richer. That's the U$A today.

Here's a newsflash, socialism works. It works better than unfettered capitalism. All you have to do is look to the countries that have instituted it, and see that very clearly. I'm not talking about authoritarian regimes, but democratic socialist nations. They have a higher standard of living than we do, and a higher rate of happiness, without exception.

 

[HisArpy]

I'm not even a 10%er... much less a 1%er.

Socialists aren't about giving away what you have, it's about a level playing field, where oligarchs and plutocrats aren't allowed to steal elections and run our economy into the ground so that they and their friends make money.

I'm not for equal outcome, but I AM for equal opportunity. We don't have that right now, not by a long shot. We have a caste system that isn't much different from the one in India. The poor stay poor, and the rich get richer. That's the U$A today.

Here's a newsflash, socialism works. It works better than unfettered capitalism. All you have to do is look to the countries that have instituted it, and see that very clearly. I'm not talking about authoritarian regimes, but democratic socialist nations. They have a higher standard of living than we do, and a higher rate of happiness, without exception.

Are you an alt for the oregano king? Because you sound like him. You even promote the same failure riddled propaganda.

Newsflash:

Socialism DOES NOT WORK. Ask Venezuela how things are going.

 

[HisArpy]

France and Italy have not failed and are not failing and are not socialist, only to some extent social-democratic; the difference is important. Venezuela is something a lot nearer to socialist, and for them it don't work so good, but social democracy works just fine.

I also note how you dropped the USSR out of your response. Biggest and most prolific fail of Socialism of all time. And the one you ignore the most.

 

[KingOrfeo]

I also note how you dropped the USSR out of your response. Biggest and most prolific fail of Socialism of all time. And the one you ignore the most.

I have no illusions about the USSR. I don't ignore it, I just don't care to defend it, nor do I want any leftist movement to look to it as a model.

 

[BotanyBoy]

I'm not even a 10%er... much less a 1%er.

If you own more than 3 houses that aren't shit holes, you're richer than you think and most certainly are a 10%'er. If you make over 500 and something (I forgot the exact number) per year you're a 1%'er.

Socialists aren't about giving away what you have,

You're right, they are about taking it from you at the end of a gun.

it's about a level playing field,

Bullshit.

I'm not for equal outcome, but I AM for equal opportunity. We don't have that right now, not by a long shot.

First off, define opportunity....lefties are fucking notorious for using it as a synonym for outcome.

And what opportunities are not equal in the USA?

What is it that my over educated 1% female minority sister can't do that our broke as fuck trailer trash white male cousins cant?

We have a caste system that isn't much different from the one in India. The poor stay poor, and the rich get richer. That's the U$A today.

And every bit of that is absolutely 100% done via government regulations and enforcement.....socialism.

Here's a newsflash, socialism works. It works better than unfettered capitalism.

Only under certain conditions and only temporally.

It's proven absolutely horrifying when something upsets the apple cart in a socialist utopia, usually significantly more so than in any capitalist country.

I can't name a single free market nation that has forcefully murdered millions to make things more equal....socialist states however? Notoriously bad about that shit.

They have a higher standard of living than we do, and a higher rate of happiness, without exception.

A well kept slave/prisoner is still a fuckin' slave/prisoner. They can keep it and I wish everyone who loves it so much would put their money where their mouth is and pack their shit for Cuba or Venezuela.

 

[Christobal]

I'm not even a 10%er... much less a 1%er.

Socialists aren't about giving away what you have, it's about a level playing field, where oligarchs and plutocrats aren't allowed to steal elections and run our economy into the ground so that they and their friends make money.

I'm not for equal outcome, but I AM for equal opportunity. We don't have that right now, not by a long shot. We have a caste system that isn't much different from the one in India. The poor stay poor, and the rich get richer. That's the U$A today.

Here's a newsflash, socialism works. It works better than unfettered capitalism. All you have to do is look to the countries that have instituted it, and see that very clearly. I'm not talking about authoritarian regimes, but democratic socialist nations. They have a higher standard of living than we do, and a higher rate of happiness, without exception.

Simple honest question. What socialist countries are you talking about? Names please.

 

[richard_daily]

Are you an alt for the oregano king? Because you sound like him. You even promote the same failure riddled propaganda.

Newsflash:

Socialism DOES NOT WORK. Ask Venezuela how things are going.

Cherry pick much?

How about Sweden, Denmark, Norway?

You know, democratic socialist countries, which were what I was talking about. I very specifically negatived authoritarian socialism in my post. Did you have trouble reading it?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Cherry pick much?

How about Sweden, Denmark, Norway?

You know, democratic socialist countries, which were what I was talking about. I very specifically negatived authoritarian socialism in my post. Did you have trouble reading it?

Do you think mob rule democracy will be any kinder than authoritarian socialism when shit gets ugly?

I think the elitist will come out of the closet and be just as ruthless as their authoritarian versions....or they will find themselves out in the streets eating dogs with the pitchfork and torch wielding villagers.

The first world is only a few meals away from the 3rd.

 

[richard_daily]

If you own more than 3 houses that aren't shit holes, you're richer than you think and most certainly are a 10%'er. If you make over 500 and something (I forgot the exact number) per year you're a 1%'er.

I have a good retirement, and I know how to utilize 1030 exchanges. I don't make anywhere near 500k a year. But trust me, I ain't close to a 1%er.

First off, define opportunity....lefties are fucking notorious for using it as a synonym for outcome.

And n and what opportunities are not equal in the USA?

Schools, first and foremost. If you are born in a poor area, you will go to a poor school, and you will likely not have access to a good job. These are verifiable facts, with tons of empirical data to back it up.

Health care.

Jobs.

Police intervention in your life (positive vs. negative)

etc etc etc...

And every bit of that is absolutely 100% done via government regulations and enforcement.....socialism.

Not all government regulation is bad. If you don't want any government intervention, check out Somalia to see how that business model works. It's the only unfettered capitalist state on earth that I can think of.

It's proven absolutely horrifying when something upsets the apple cart in a socialist utopia, usually significantly more so than in any capitalist country.

I can't name a single free market nation that has forcefully murdered millions to make things more equal....socialist states however? Notoriously bad about that shit.

What free market nations are you drawing your pool from? If you count the US, we've definitely murdered a lot of people, but I wouldn't say it's to make things more equal. In fact, quite the opposite.

A well kept slave/prisoner is still a fuckin' slave/prisoner. They can keep it and I wish everyone who loves it so much would put their money where their mouth is and pack their shit for Cuba or Venezuela.

If you don't think people are a prisoner under the plutocratic sytem we have now, I don't know what to tell you.

Our votes don't count, our voices don't count. Especially after Citizen's United. The only thing that counts is money, and if you don't have a couple of billion in the bank, you don't get to have an opinion on anything. That's the country WE live in now.

 

[richard_daily]

Do you think mob rule democracy will be any kinder than authoritarian socialism when shit gets ugly?

I think the elitist will come out of the closet and be just as ruthless as their authoritarian versions....or they will find themselves out in the streets eating dogs with the pitchfork and torch wielding villagers.

The first world is only a few meals away from the 3rd.

I don't disagree with this... but we don't have mob rule democracy in this country. It's pretty clear that we don't even have democracy in this country at this point.

We have a republic, but not a representative democracy. We've never had that, thanks to the electoral collage.

The government doesn't trust us with our own opinion.

That's not an issue with socialism, that's built into the framework that the founders designed. There are some great ideas in the American Experiment, but there are also some serious flaws, and we're finally seeing the outcome of decades of those flaws driving policy...

 

[BotanyBoy]

Schools, first and foremost. If you are born in a poor area, you will go to a poor school, and you will likely not have access to a good job. These are verifiable facts, with tons of empirical data to back it up.

Health care.

Jobs.

Police intervention in your life (positive vs. negative)

etc etc etc...

Ahh...so opportunity to you = resources, not actual opportunity.

That explains it.

I see opportunity as just a chance.

If I get the chance to swing the bat, I had an equal opportunity.

Striking out or hitting a home run doesn't have shit to do with the opportunity to swing the bat.

Are some opportunities more challenging/likely depending on people and circumstances? Sure...some pitchers throw better, sometimes the sun glares just right, or the crowd is getting to you, but you still got 3 chances to swing that fucker just like everyone else under the same rules that everyone else has to play by then imo you have an equal opportunity.

Not all government regulation is bad. If you don't want any government intervention, check out Somalia to see how that business model works. It's the only unfettered capitalist state on earth that I can think of.

I didn't say it was.

And there are others but they are generally 3rd world as well.

But not a single one of them ever did anything like what's happened under the communist/nationalist authoritarian psycho states in the last century-ish.

If you don't think people are a prisoner under the plutocratic sytem we have now, I don't know what to tell you.

Oh we absolutely are prisoner to our corporatist state.

But corporatism is just another flavor of socialism, at the end of the day it's still the government telling everyone who gets to make what money and how.

Our votes don't count, our voices don't count. Especially after Citizen's United.

Citizen's United was the real marker for our corporatist state, it officially put special interest groups in charge and now it's in direct conflict with our democratic side and causing some serious fucking problems.

I expect more and more radical elected officials until they cut themselves off from the money and power, or the house of cards falls down. I suspect the latter to be the more likely by the looks of things but I won't discount the former until it's all said and done.

Last thing I want to do however is make these assholes more powerful and godlike....why (D)'s feel the urge to give their oppressors more power over them I'll never understand but I'm not on board with it.

The only thing that counts is money, and if you don't have a couple of billion in the bank, you don't get to have an opinion on anything. That's the country WE live in now.

If only all those progressive (D)'s had done something about it like they said they would when they had the chance instead of rat fucking the working class with ACA.

And that's why I'm at the "fuck it burn it all down" point.

They are all evil shit-bags, liars and hypocrites.

I want them cut down, not given unlimited power.

 

[HisArpy]

Cherry pick much?

How about Sweden, Denmark, Norway?

You know, democratic socialist countries, which were what I was talking about. I very specifically negatived authoritarian socialism in my post. Did you have trouble reading it?

Cherry picking seems to be your specialty. You and the oregano king.

France is a socialist country. It has riots on nearly a clockwork basis.
Italy is a socialist country. It has the same riots.
Germany. Ditto.

Cuba.
North Korea.
Argentina.
China.
The list goes on.

The biggie is the USSR. Total failure of socialism and Putin is trying to force the country back into it because there are views in the world that if they only squeeze everyone hard enough, they can make it work. It doesn't.

Current nation facing the socialism failure is Venezuela. Most of the S. American nations change leadership because they too are socialist.

You won't mention all those failures because you won't acknowledge that socialism is a failure. Instead, you parse and mince definitions and only point to a FEW and exclude the failed nations as some sort of "other system" than what you espouse. What will you say when the oil runs out and Norway collapses? Oh, I didn't mean that one either?

 

[BotanyBoy]

Cherry picking seems to be your specialty. You and the oregano king.

France is a socialist country. It has riots on nearly a clockwork basis.
Italy is a socialist country. It has the same riots.
Germany. Ditto.

Cuba.
North Korea.
Argentina.
China.
The list goes on.

The biggie is the USSR. Total failure of socialism and Putin is trying to force the country back into it because there are views in the world that if they only squeeze everyone hard enough, they can make it work. It doesn't.

Current nation facing the socialism failure is Venezuela. Most of the S. American nations change leadership because they too are socialist.

You won't mention all those failures because you won't acknowledge that socialism is a failure. Instead, you parse and mince definitions and only point to a FEW and exclude the failed nations as some sort of "other system" than what you espouse. What will you say when the oil runs out and Norway collapses? Oh, I didn't mean that one either?

It't not a matter of failure...because socialism to a certain extent is highly successful. You enjoy socialism every time you drive on a public road for example. It's a really bad point to argue from as both socialism and capitalism have their perks and pitfalls.

The question is at what point is it moral for the government to fuck with people and their bidnizz?

If you're poisoning the community most agree socialism is totally moral at that point....shut those fuckers down gubbmint!!

If you're bogarting a market just because rich guy gets to hire the senate committee to write laws that make him richer and fuck everyone else? (most of what (D)'s and (R)'s do these days) Then most agree that's BAD socialism just like trashing the water supply to save a buck is BAD capitalism.

Both are a 2 edged sword people keep forgetting that in their search for the silver bullet ideology that will bring about utopia if only you give them and their team all the power....

 

[OldJourno]

Schools, first and foremost. If you are born in a poor area, you will go to a poor school, and you will likely not have access to a good job. These are verifiable facts, with tons of empirical data to back it up.

.

That's why I love school choice initiatives and vouchers. Give kids a chance to get out of failing public schools.

 

[KingOrfeo]

It't not a matter of failure...because socialism to a certain extent is highly successful. You enjoy socialism every time you drive on a public road for example.

Public works, as such, are not socialism. Neither are public services like schools and libraries.

 

[richard_daily]

That's why I love school choice initiatives and vouchers. Give kids a chance to get out of failing public schools.

Great idea! Are you going to drive them to a school 50 miles away?

 

[OldJourno]

Great idea! Are you going to drive them to a school 50 miles away?

Give an entrepreneur a chance to fill a void and make a buck, which is the story of this country, and the problems will solve themselves.
Bog it down with a bunch of rules and regulations and you might as well stay with the status quo.

 

[richard_daily]

Give an entrepreneur a chance to fill a void and make a buck, which is the story of this country, and the problems will solve themselves.
Bog it down with a bunch of rules and regulations and you might as well stay with the status quo.

The entrepreneurs have had years to sort these problems out... apparently the schools aren't creating the entrepreneurs like they used to!



I realize that capitalism is clearly your religion, but it's just as fake as every other religion.

 

[OldJourno]

The entrepreneurs have had years to sort these problems out... apparently the schools aren't creating the entrepreneurs like they used to!



I realize that capitalism is clearly your religion, but it's just as fake as every other religion.

I don't believe school districts are ruled by entrepreneurs. And as long as school districts, their employees and the people who court their votes remain opposed to vouchers, the shitty educational system you bemoan will remain in place.
What chance does an entrepreneur have when poor parents have no option but to send their children to failing public schools?

 

[richard_daily]

I don't believe school districts are ruled by entrepreneurs. And as long as school districts, their employees and the people who court their votes remain opposed to vouchers, the shitty educational system you bemoan will remain in place.
What chance does an entrepreneur have when poor parents have no option but to send their children to failing public schools?

Nearly every single school district has charter schools. The charters schools are under performing against public schools...

Capitalist Jesus FAIL!

 

[BotanyBoy]

Public works, as such, are not socialism. Neither are public services like schools and libraries.

Yea they are.

They are controlled and owned by the government who pays for it all by putting a gun to every citizens head and forcing money from them at the end of a gun.

Unless they are private of course. Then it's not socialism.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Give an entrepreneur a chance to fill a void and make a buck, which is the story of this country, and the problems will solve themselves.

That is never a wise approach to education. Anyone who goes into it to make money will shortchange the students in educational terms. Read Orwell's A Clergyman's Daughter for a truly biting description of a profit-oriented and utterly dismal private school.

 

[KingOrfeo]

Yea they are.

They are controlled and owned by the government who pays for it all by putting a gun to every citizens head and forcing money from them at the end of a gun.

That's just what governments do. It's not socialism. Not all state coercion is socialism.