Any interest in a story event for non-white characters?

[MrPixel]

It's sounds like a fine idea but my only concern is that there are so many events now that the event calendar is getting overly crowded. It's impossible to keep up with as an author or a reader--for me anyway. We have events that step on one another, like the 25th Anniversary event that was only announced recently and has a deadline coming up right away. If you have too many contests and events, then they start to cannibalize each other, undermining a big part of the value of entering a contest or event, which is the extra exposure it gives.

I normally don’t do the events - this year’s Nude Day and the Ogg memorial the exceptions - but I agree here. Also, what I have observed is that popular events tend to clog the pipes, overwhelming the review and publish processes. Hard to get a non-event work through the system. A couple of months ago I uploaded an innocuous installment to a serial, proximate to an event deadline, and it was in “pending" limbo for 8 or 9 days. Subsequent installment two weeks later went live in under 24 hours.

 

[SeraphNocturne]

I already said that I knew many people would feel differently. But what I want to emphasize is that there is no right or wrong way to see this, in my opinion. Neither of our views is more right or more wrong. You see it as something positive and empowering, and from your point of view, you are completely right. I see it as something that has an underlying assumption that is not good, even if I am sure the OP had no such intentions. It is well meant, there is no doubt in my mind about it, but I feel it only emphasizes the things that it's supposed to fight against.
It is a matter of a point of view, mostly.

I agree. Though, I don't much see it as a statement of 'empowerment', like I said earlier this isn't anything new to me. I write characters across time and space in every ethnicity and if I feel lacking, I research. From the political point of view though, no, I don't think it's that serious love. I can appreciate you approaching it in a serious manner if it struck you like it might be making waves. It doesn't appear to be that, just an offer for a writing event and like most writing events there's probably an audience who would enjoy the stories.

That aside... there's the pressing issue that a lot of us have realized. So. Many. Events.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Regarding the proliferation of events: I hadn't realized they couldn't run concurrently. Is that a rule?

I was more imagining, write the stories you want to write and if you happen to have a non-white character in there then here's a tag you can stick on.

That was how I was thinking of pink orchid anyway. Doesn't it explicitly mention that it runs concurrently with the 750 word contest and you can cross-post?

Maybe the rule is that contests can overlap with events but not events with events?

 

[SimonDoom]

Regarding the proliferation of events: I hadn't realized they couldn't run concurrently. Is that a rule?

I was more imagining, write the stories you want to write and if you happen to have a non-white character in there then here's a tag you can stick on.

That was how I was thinking of pink orchid anyway. Doesn't it explicitly mention that it runs concurrently with the 750 word contest and you can cross-post?

Maybe the rule is that contests can overlap with events but not events with events?

There's no rule, as far as I know. I think it's a practical problem. Whether or not contests/events can be run concurrently and whether or not stories can be cross-entered, at some point it's just too much. It's too much information, too much confusion, too many things to write for. It's more for the Site to administer, too. More work for them. They have to start threads about the contests/events and post notices.

 

[CyranoJ]

Imagine @Omenainen 's Pink Orchid event but for people of color rather than women: write a story, any story, with at least one character who is not white and yet has plausible motivations and relationships and personality and so on.

I've read some fantastic stories involving such characters, just enough to make me realize how rare they are. Let's get some more.

Is this something people would be interesting in writing (and reading)?

Sure.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Regarding the proliferation of events: I hadn't realized they couldn't run concurrently. Is that a rule?

I was more imagining, write the stories you want to write and if you happen to have a non-white character in there then here's a tag you can stick on.

That was how I was thinking of pink orchid anyway. Doesn't it explicitly mention that it runs concurrently with the 750 word contest and you can cross-post?

Maybe the rule is that contests can overlap with events but not events with events?

There is nothing to stop us collectively agreeing a tag to use. I guess we could flag works as attempting to be inclusive.

Em

 

[Devinter]

Racism exists because people emphasize the difference in race and make it meaningful, and in that way interracial category has some nuances of racism, even if it wasn't intended probably.

As someone that lives outside of America, I agree with this 100%. Part of the reason racism is still so prevalent in the world is in part because race is such a big issue in the American media, and is always brought up, always involved, always somehow relevant even when it isn't. And the American view influences the rest of the world. I hope you all realize that in many other parts of the world where people from many different cultures live closely together, people are just people, and we don't obsess about the colour of their skin. I find this deeply problematic - especially when acting a certain way is considered "white", "black", etc. Can't people just be allowed to be themselves, act however they want?

Relevant story: A friend of mine from the states got upset with me when I put cucumber in a taco because "that's misrepresenting the Mexican culture" - The taco was for me, and I happen to like cucumber, damnit! Why would anyone else care what I put in it!? It's ridiculous.

End of rant.

 

[Kumquatqueen]

I think it might yield some interesting stories, like the Pink Orchid event has over the last two years, where there's actual characters who aren't just yet more of the Lit mainstream. I'm sure such stories are posted regularly, but finding them can be hard.

Whether I'd participate would depend on the timing - I've got a Sarah & Duncan story on the back burner, where it becomes relevant that she's Malaysian Chinese and he's Malaysian Indian, he grew up as an expat and she only became one more recently. But it'll likely be a long time before that one's ready, because I want to get all the background detail right.

In the meantime I've got various other characters who aren't white, but no current drafts where they're leads.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I do not speak for @Omenainen but seeing as how at least some of the inspiration for Pink Orchid came from my review thread, I'd like to weigh in.

I have been on the record in my thread when an outsized proportion of stories put in front of me contain only white characters. I've pointed that out. I've encouraged diversity. We've preached that contrast in all aspects is a good thing for strong writing, and that includes character design, background, motivation, etc. My posts on this topic, in my own thread, were encouraging others to fill a void.

A lack of diversity is one thing; the proliferation of stories that treat women as props, objects, and idiots is another. I've never kept stats on this, but among all-time requests, badly written women appear in at least half of the stories put in front of me. There have definitely been stretches where 4 and 5 stories in a row feature women that are an afterthought. Women who don't make sense except as objectified sex toys.

Pink Orchid did not come from an assumption of anyone else's intent, it came from the lived experience of not finding many stories that treated women as important. Others can project whatever they want onto that, or rant about "not all guys" if that makes them feel better. That's fine. You do you, but we have receipts.

In the stories put in front of me, I haven't seen the same treatment of non-white characters. I certainly know it exists, the IR category thrives on it. BBC porn is not for white women or black men, it's for white men with an inferiority complex...

...but I don't read IR. I don’t go looking in that cesspool for the same reason I don’t read LW. In my experience, primarily in other categories, the non-white characters that have been put in front of me haven't been reduced in the same way women are. I don’t see stories where the black characters only appear as servants, or bulls, or hung (and in which 'hung' is the only trait that matters). When I've seen characters of color, they tend to be more fleshed out.

Is there bias coming from the audience my thread gathers, where progressive outlooks are encouraged, resulting in a more diverse set of characters? Maybe, though if that were 100% true then we wouldn't see women written the way they are.

Is there a bias coming from the fact that I, personally, don't read many stories that aren't put in front of me explicitly? Definitely.

Does erotica posses the capacity to broaden the horizons of readers? Yes. Unequivocally.

Is the lack of diversity more of an American thing? Probably.

Do I think that increasing diversity is a good thing, that should be encouraged? Yes.

Will I contribute a story? Probably not. I have trouble completing stories under deadlines (my creativity doesn't work well under pressure), and I don’t pay enough attention to events that aren't run by people that are already in my life. That being said, I have and will continue to promote diversity in my thread, as a component of strong writing, as well as adding diversity in my own writing.

Do I think this event is still a good idea? Yes, especially if non-white readers and authors feel underrepresented.

 

[Euphony]

I agree. Though, I don't much see it as a statement of 'empowerment',

Reads like just representation to me.

Used to be the bar of cultural entry was so high, every act of representation was a statement b/c, if it wasn't viewed through a social problem lens, it was denied distribution (or never came into existence in the first place.)

I'd like to think our mindset has evolved collectively (not everyone's but enough we're moving in a collective direction) towards the idea that representation, the mere existence of the thing, =/= to serious implications of the past.

Representation can be boring. Will *some* make a fight or issue of it at every opportunity? Of course. An author writing a story about POC doing their thing can, and often doesn't, have anything to do with making a point or furthering a social discussion. Just an extension of "writing what you know" with the sweetener of sharing some commonalities with others who don't get to do that as much as they may like.

Most of the time, existence is not a statement by those merely existing.

Of course I can't know but my gut says the bulk of event submissions will be similarly banal. If they're not, it'll be ok. Those who would just as likely have a problem with the banal slice of lifer's (or even the mere existence of an event) will lightning rod over to the statement piece. Author meets their intended audience.

I understand why some see this as signaling something but my guess is, for most of participating, it is curation. We show up in the Dewey Decimal Code and the event functions more as a SuperTag™ than planting any particular flag.

 

[Gamblnluck]

Writing a story with non-white characters is one thing, but typically it leads to a very racist approach. Most of my stories, I barely physically describe the characters much less assign race.

 

[Euphony]

Writing a story with non-white characters is one thing, but typically it leads to a very racist approach.

Feels like a statement needing further clarification b/c right now it reads as hyperbolic.

"Racist" as is prejudiced, derogatory, or flat out hateful, those feel like a sense of deliberateness needs to occur.

"Racist" as in misunderstanding or poor representation? Far more likely but most POC don't define even bad misunderstanding as malicious as "racism".

I am (likely) blunder incarnate in fully dimensional portrayals of just about every classification of people other than my narrow own.

My experience has always been: Earnest, researched, well meaning representation/portrayals is usually met with understanding and opportunities for writer growth.

This event would invite a metric ton of that and many of us couldn't be more for all of it.

 

[GrushaVashnadze]

in many other parts of the world where people from many different cultures live closely together, people are just people, and we don't obsess about the colour of their skin.

Yes. And that is why I am delighted to read stories about people who aren't white, English-speaking, and from the "developed world" - just as much as I enjoy reading stories about people who are. Race/colour/ethnicity is just one attribute of a person; once it becomes the main attribute, or the only one which matters, or the raison d'être of the story, I tend to lose interest - because all people are far more interesting than just their race.

Here are some sex stories I have written about "non-white" people. I didn't write them in order to write about "non-white" people. They are about more important and interesting things, I think. The characters just happen not to be white. Like most of the world.

See what you think:
Widadari Ophelia
Pink
Soeliram

 

[MillieDynamite]

I already write about minority people often. I don't need a special event to write a black woman. I am a black woman, so I kind of have that down already. If I write about other races, I'll need to do a bit of research first. I'm not against the event, I just don't know that is needed. Many writers produce stories with people of races different from their own. How well one particular writer does on this is open to debate. But a whole event where everyone tries to write about people of color, what is the benefit of this?

I guess you can put me down in the 'Meh' column. I might put a story in it, but I won't write one for it.

 

[AchtungNight]

Maybe we need a Cephalopod-based Author’s Challenge.

Come to think of it, I’ve never written two cephalopods in flagrante - it’s always been with humans. Maybe that’s the way forward.

Em

If I end up in this challenge, I’ll probably have a woman of appropriate mental state end up in a crazy encounter with some octopus like aliens in an alley behind a porno theater. Either that or Laughing Octopus from Metal Gear Solid ambushes some poor guy.

 

[Euphony]

But a whole event where everyone tries to write about people of color, what is the benefit of this?

I don't see this necessarily has to be anything other than a convenience nook you pass in a more high traffic area of the library.

Sure, these stories exist cross subjects and throughout the bookshelves. For those already inclined, it is barely saving a couple of footsteps.

It can be as mundane as nothing more than a helpful reminder.

I don't frequent the children's section but that convivence nook had me reread the Phantom Tollbooth when I wouldn't otherwise have. Could I (should I?) have found it myself? Absolutely. But the reality is it certainly helped.

I guess its existence I'm not ascribing much to beyond (hopefully) better curation than interracial and accessibility/convenience benefits.

If the authors and readers turn it into something more than that, so be it but I don't think merely having the event inherently makes a statement any more than having a detective story event is a referendum on crime or policing.

Those who find it helpful for whatever reason, have it to peruse.

Those who don't can bee line to the shelves where they usually find their bliss.

My vanilla-dom doesn't mesh with plenty of the events subject matters but I'm glad the resource exists for others b/c I know how much I enjoy it when one of my "works for mes" comes around.

 

[lovecraft68]

I'll just put my foot right in it

Its not empowering, its pandering tokenism.

FWIW and to show consistency I feel the same way about the guys here who go running into the Pink Orchid event screaming "Yay girl power!" Look at me ladies, look how down I am with your cause! Now please flirt and say dirty things to me uh huh uh huh huh.

If you don't write these types of characters already, and are just doing it for the sake of a challenge? I mean, let's be blunt here, what's the goal "Look my character was blacker than yours?"

Progressive racism at its finest. Make sure all you woke authors tell everyone how many black friends you have in the challenge thread.

 

[alohadave]

Relevant story: A friend of mine from the states got upset with me when I put cucumber in a taco because "that's misrepresenting the Mexican culture" - The taco was for me, and I happen to like cucumber, damnit! Why would anyone else care what I put in it!? It's ridiculous.

That's funny, especially since American tacos are grossly misrepresenting Mexican culture just by existing. AFAIK, crunchy taco shells did not originate in Mexico.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Well, I have as many, or more, white friends as black friends. I don't view the exercise as being a form of passive racism, tokenism, or empowerment. I view it as an unnecessary event whose purpose is somewhat ambiguous.

I'll just put my foot right in it

Its not empowering, its pandering tokenism.

FWIW and to show consistency I feel the same way about the guys here who go running into the Pink Orchid event screaming "Yay girl power!" Look at me ladies, look how down I am with your cause! Now please flirt and say dirty things to me uh huh uh huh huh.

If you don't write these types of characters already, and are just doing it for the sake of a challenge? I mean, let's be blunt here, what's the goal "Look my character was blacker than yours?"

Progressive racism at its finest. Make sure all you woke authors tell everyone how many black friends you have in the challenge thread.

 

[MelissaBaby]

I do share the opinion that we have reached saturation point with events, but no one has to enter them. I only do those that capture my interest, and don't feel that I'm missing out by not trying to do every one that comes along.

As for this proposal, I do have some concerns.

It would be very easy for anyone to submit a random story and just label one or more character as people of color in order to be included.

Or, conversely, some will try to write specifically coded Black, Asian, Latino or other characters, and at least a few of them are going to be appallingly off the mark. Things could get ugly.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Also, sorry but just sayin', this will be the most one bombed event in Lit history.

The only time I've ever gotten "hate mail" for something on Lit? When, in a chapter of Mary and Alvin, their daughter married an African immigrant.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I do share the opinion that we have reached saturation point with events, but no one has to enter them. I only do those that capture my interest, and don't feel that I'm missing out by not trying to do every one that comes along.

As for this proposal, I do have some concerns.

It would be very easy for anyone to submit a random story and just label one or more character as people of color in order to be included.

Or, conversely, some will try to write specifically coded Black, Asian, Latino or other characters, and at least a few of them are going to be appallingly off the mark. Things could get ugly.

Agree with all that.

Em

 

[JaxRhapsody]

A big no from me.
Just as the Orchid event is based on the unspoken assumption that most of us are chauvinists who write women who have no personality or agency, and you need an event to force you to write a different kind of women, so is this idea based on a silent premise that we are mostly mild racists who write only white characters.
Racism exists because people emphasize the difference in race and make it meaningful, and in that way interracial category has some nuances of racism, even if it wasn't intended probably. This event is meant to emphasize the difference in race and it has no other theme, unlike most other events (Halloween, Christmas, Nerd, nude day, etc.) In my opinion, its fundamental idea makes this event more or less racist, even if I am sure that the OP had no such intentions. I understand many people will feel differently, but I wanted to state the way it all seems to me.

I see what you're getting at. I remember a discussion on the old Wattpad forums where a user was saying that characters in books are typically assumed to be white anyway, unless states otherwise. Sometimes names don't help either, especially since names are often associated with race and gender. Like, I've known two Brittany's, some folks might assume both are white girls, probably both stereotypical pumpkin spice lovin', Uggs and sweatervest wearing white girls. Niether are that and one is black.

Some of that alleged racism is probably from trying to write characters with some empasis on race, with some stereotypes or architypes. Granted those things do have truth to them, the shit don't come from nowhere. But one of the problems I'd say is some degree of fixation and good faith attempt to make nonwhite characters stand out to some degree and that often leads to them as a person not being on the forefront of the character. Then as far as the market goes; trying to get sales pushes that issue, even if it's not a tradpub standard. As one user on Lipstick Alley once said; "all these interracial romance books are basically fat or fatish middle class or higher white girl, falling for Jaquan the gangster, rapper, or drug slinger from the hood." And in that same Wattpad thread, it was mentioned that in books, generally white seems to sell in tradpub.

If you know where to look, you can find many different types of representation of races not being some kinda stereotype, like Lucy Lu in Elementary, or that woman in Grey's Anatomy, Steve Urkle or Cleveland Brown. It's writing as people first, which is something people seemed to have forgotten nowadays with all the horible lgbt representation.

It's really not hard, as others have mentioned and done already and I have no doubts, or shouldn't from interactions, that those that have, wrote character first. There's 3½ of us yall interact with nearly everyday here. I'm no Jaquan and Millie and Seraph don't seem to be Laquishas.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I chose the name Millie when I went into foster care and had my name legally changed to it. It was my grandmother's first name, but it was also Julie Andrews in a musical I watched one time. Millie and Tillie or Milly and Tilly were common slave names. I kept my middle name, Dee. Of course, that's where the Dynamite comes from. Well, not not really. Dad called me Dynamite or 90 lbs of Dynamite all the time when I was a kid. Cause I had so much energy. (and I was more than a handful to take care of)

 

[JaxRhapsody]

As someone that lives outside of America, I agree with this 100%. Part of the reason racism is still so prevalent in the world is in part because race is such a big issue in the American media, and is always brought up, always involved, always somehow relevant even when it isn't. And the American view influences the rest of the world. I hope you all realize that in many other parts of the world where people from many different cultures live closely together, people are just people, and we don't obsess about the colour of their skin. I find this deeply problematic - especially when acting a certain way is considered "white", "black", etc. Can't people just be allowed to be themselves, act however they want?

Relevant story: A friend of mine from the states got upset with me when I put cucumber in a taco because "that's misrepresenting the Mexican culture" - The taco was for me, and I happen to like cucumber, damnit! Why would anyone else care what I put in it!? It's ridiculous.

End of rant.

I don't fully believe this. You can't just put all the blame on American media. I don't think our media was in wide access until the internet grew more prevailent. Racism was around before this country was a country, despite how others think theirs is the more racial paragon. And that goes for colorism too.

I was looking for Elderscrolls slurs to use in a novel and ran across a wiki list of actual slurs, which I'm still reading through. No, we can't take blame on this one... not all of it. Other countries being around far longer than this ones being established, the racism is generational. It was brought here from where it was engineered. There's not much I'll defend the United States of Kravitz over, but I think something was to be said about it.