Are homosexual relationships more stable than heterosexual relationships?

[Never]

Equinoxe:
"I beg your pardon?"

Pardon granted. Look on the first page of the forums.

 

[Equinoxe]

You rather enjoy this, don't you?

 

[Never]

She's on top of Etoile; a common fantasy of mine played out whenever I hit the refresh button.

I'm in a mood tonight. I'm not certain if I'm enjoying, tolerating, or just typing whatever springs to mind.

 

[Equinoxe]

She's on top of Etoile; a common fantasy of mine played out whenever I hit the refresh button.

I'm in a mood tonight. I'm not certain if I'm enjoying, tolerating, or just typing whatever springs to mind.

I know, I figured it out.

I do not discriminate, I simply observe and form opinions-- in layman's terms I call them as I see them.

It is important to cultivate mystery, but it is something I have sacrificed in my early posting career in favour of a somewhat manufactured warmth.

 

[Never]

From whence did this 'enjoying' comment spring from then?

I never said you discriminated. All I did was ask some questions. My questions are typically value neutral.

Manufactured warmth? My Equinoxe is a bubbling hot spring in which I lay my head to rest.

 

[Equinoxe]

From whence did this 'enjoying' comment spring from then?

I never said you discriminated. All I did was ask some questions. My questions are typically value neutral.

Manufactured warmth? My Equinoxe is a bubbling hot spring in which I lay my head to rest.

It came from the perception that you like the idea of playing a guessing game, not that you like the idea that I would fail at it.

I was simply clarifying, not ascribing any value to what you had said.

I'm flattered, but I'm actually rather cold and distant. Polite and kind, yes, but I'm far less outgoing than I appear on here.

 

[Never]

Equinoxe is a warm loaf of bread and I the mouse that nibbles at her.

I figured as much. The mask we show here is rarely the one we wear in public.

 

[Equinoxe]

Equinoxe is a warm loaf of bread and I the mouse that nibbles at her.

I figured as much. The mask we show here is rarely the one we wear in public.

What a bizarre, sweet visual that is. I imagine that will be the only time in my life I will ever feel honoured to be compared to a loaf of bread.

The internet allows one to put on different masks. The mask we wear in public is not the same as the mask we wear in private, which is itself different from who we are when we take the masks off.

 

[Never]

Equinoxe is the metaphor and I the poet desperately trying to - oh, forget it.

 

[Equinoxe]

Little reason to continue on with such sweet nothings, as they say.

 

[Never]

I am so not awake right now.

Yes, sweet nothings. They're like sweet something but with half the calories.

I want to go to bed but I'm afraid you'll die horribly by tomorrow and the last thing I say to you will be that you're a loaf of bread.

Honey Oat?

 

[Equinoxe]

I am so not awake right now.

Yes, sweet nothings. They're like sweet something but with half the calories.

I want to go to bed but I'm afraid you'll die horribly by tomorrow and the last thing I say to you will be that you're a loaf of bread.

Honey Oat?

I'm suprisingly awake, which I suspect is not a good sign.

That is the idea, from what I understand.

I have to admit that made me laugh.

I do enjoy Honey Oat bread, also a good rye bread.

 

[WyldSpirit]

My vote is that it depends entirely on the individuals involved. (Did I spell anything right there? Ok, I'll just state now, it's very late, and I'm way over-medicated, so please forgive any misspellings, grammatical errors, incomplete thoughts, redundancies, etc. and please, feel free to point and laugh later, I'm sure I will )

Seriously, I've known lots of people with lots of lifestyles, some that I couldn't imagine would ever be a stable lifestyle that were amazingly so, and others that you would expect from the outside looking in they would be completely stable and they were far from it. There are so many factors when it comes to stability of relationships that it is almost impossible to make a comparison like this, especially when there is almost a complete lack of any statistical data for one of the groups and no real way to gather any of that data (atleast until the laws get changed )

 

[Etoile]

She's on top of Etoile; a common fantasy of mine played out whenever I hit the refresh button.

 

[Etoile]

from observation, I've known men who realised they were gay and suddenly started acting that way and likewise I've known women who realised they were lesbians and affected all the stereotypes.

I should have said that I think that many people are that way, but I made the mistake of generalising.

I definitely have seen the phenomenon you describe, but (as you already realized) there are definitely people who simply are the way they are. I've known butch dykes who aren't trying to be that way just to prove they're a lesbian (though I did have a butch babydyke come out on me once that way!). In fact, I know a few butch lesbians who have been that way since they were young, which caused problems for them in the religious cultural environment they lived in.

This is why there are stories of gay and lesbian teenagers being persecuted in some areas. They can't help acting and looking the way they do - they're just being who they are. Unfortunately their areas have a negative opinion of gays and lesbians, and so because these teenagers are so easily recognized as gay/lesbian, they are the victims of anything from taunting to physical attacks. (Note that I'm not sure if this applied to Matthew Shepherd, but if it did then he would be a good example.)

So, yes, there definitely are people who will deliberately follow the stereotypes that apply to them, but there are also people who simply can't help it and may indeed be the basis for the stereotypes we know.

 

[Equinoxe]

I definitely have seen the phenomenon you describe, but (as you already realized) there are definitely people who simply are the way they are. I've known butch dykes who aren't trying to be that way just to prove they're a lesbian (though I did have a butch babydyke come out on me once that way!). In fact, I know a few butch lesbians who have been that way since they were young, which caused problems for them in the religious cultural environment they lived in.

This is why there are stories of gay and lesbian teenagers being persecuted in some areas. They can't help acting and looking the way they do - they're just being who they are. Unfortunately their areas have a negative opinion of gays and lesbians, and so because these teenagers are so easily recognized as gay/lesbian, they are the victims of anything from taunting to physical attacks. (Note that I'm not sure if this applied to Matthew Shepherd, but if it did then he would be a good example.)

So, yes, there definitely are people who will deliberately follow the stereotypes that apply to them, but there are also people who simply can't help it and may indeed be the basis for the stereotypes we know.

I agree, there are some people who just naturally never fit the cultural idea of man or woman. Some people (including some straight women and straight men) naturally seem to have many of the traits that culturally are considered the the domain of the opposite sex.

Having said that, I've seen way too many people try to fit the stereotypes and I've seen a lot of people (natually that way or not) try to make more out of it than it is. I think that's the part that really bothers me, when it becomes some greater cultural concept in the eyes of the individual, like when they feel that butches should date femmes and vice versa. Which in my mind is justing trying to emulate the straight world.

I'm fine with whatever a person feels is their natural style, I just don't particularly care for an attempt to make that into something more than it is. It's mostly a style concern, not a substance concern.

 

[John Doe]

Other --We live in a society that defines the worth of a relationship by its longevity.

I say bullshit.

I credit people with a hot one night stand over a bitter dragged out roomate-dom with one person cheating. Hetero or homo.

Well I meant true stability anyway, so go figure.

It's reasonable well accepted amongst a number of psychologists and behaviourists that women have better communication skills.

Of course, I think it largely varies from individual to individual.

Firstly, "a number" is not necessarily the majority. In any case, the consensus in the scientific community is that women (generally) have better verbal skills, which is only a part of communcation skills. Even if they were more skillful, that does not mean they want to communicate more than men do (generally).

 

[Equinoxe]

Firstly, "a number" is not necessarily the majority. In any case, the consensus in the scientific community is that women (generally) have better verbal skills, which is only a part of communcation skills. Even if they were more skillful, that does not mean they want to communicate more than men do (generally).

I never said it was a majority, I simply said that many in the scientific community who study the issue of gender psychology believe that women generally have better communication skills (generally that is to say better linguistic skills, I believe both written and verbal). It is likewise reasonably well accepted amongst the discipline that women are usually better capable of multi-tasking.

Likewise, I never said that woman want to communicate more, I was simply stating that it is a somewhat accepted idea that women can communicate better.

I wasn't disagreeing, nor agreeing, with you on the matter; I was simply mentioning something relevent to the discussion.

 

[John Doe]

I never said it was a majority, I simply said that many in the scientific community who study the issue of gender psychology believe that women generally have better communication skills (generally that is to say better linguistic skills, I believe both written and verbal). It is likewise reasonably well accepted amongst the discipline that women are usually better capable of multi-tasking.

That is also incorrect. Whether or not the consensus is that women are better at multi-tasking (a consensus which I doubt) they merely do it more. Three jobs done half-assed is no better than one job done well in the same amount of time. Productivity studies have been done on this in the workplace.

I will agree that linguistic skills are generally better, but only 20% of human communication is verbal. I think it's really a difference in how the sexes communicate. As Raimondin said, we 'speak different languages' in the sense that (generally) women are more verbal and men are more gestural, tonal and inflective.

However, as I said, that does not mean they communicate better, only differently.

Likewise, I never said that woman want to communicate more, I was simply stating that it is a somewhat accepted idea that women can communicate better.

I can see how it's remotely relevent, but the issue was not how well they communicate, but whether they desire to communicate. A skill means nothing if you're not going to use it.

I wasn't disagreeing, nor agreeing, with you on the matter; I was simply mentioning something relevent to the discussion.

Regardless of relevency, if you state or imply something that seems incorrect or false to me, I will feel compelled to take issue with it.

 

[Equinoxe]

That is also incorrect. Whether or not the consensus is that women are better at multi-tasking (a consensus which I doubt) they merely do it more. Three jobs done half-assed is no better than one job done well in the same amount of time. Productivity studies have been done on this in the workplace.

I'm not sure I agree with you there, but as I don't think either of us is going to begin quoting psychological studies to back our assertions up at this point, so I imagine it'll remain in the realm of the vague. Besides, the point was not whether three jobs done poorly are better than one job done perfectly, it was that three jobs done poorly are better than three jobs done abysmally, which is all that would suggest, assuming some scientific consensus on the matter.

I will agree that linguistic skills are generally better, but only 20% of human communication is verbal. I think it's really a difference in how the sexes communicate. As Raimondin said, we 'speak different languages' in the sense that (generally) women are more verbal and men are more gestural, tonal and inflective.

However, as I said, that does not mean they communicate better, only differently.

Whilst I am inclined to agree that the sexes have different means of communication and that linguistic communication is a small portion of overall communication (indeed ask anyone who can communicate in sign language, gestures and emotional expressions are imperative), I am not sure that there is any scientific evidence that men are more gestural, tonal, or inflective, but the possibility exists. Although, it definitely does vary by the cultural context of the individuals as well (as a completely random aside, Chinese music students, because of their linguistic familiarity with tone and inflection, are around 3 times more likely to have perfect pitch than English-speaking ones) .

I can see how it's remotely relevent, but the issue was not how well they communicate, but whether they desire to communicate. A skill means nothing if you're not going to use it.

It is relevent, there is some question as to how relevent, yes.

Regardless of relevency, if you state or imply something that seems incorrect or false to me, I will feel compelled to take issue with it.

That's admirable of you of course, no reason not to question that which seems false, relevent or otherwise.

 

[Etoile]

Having said that, I've seen way too many people try to fit the stereotypes and I've seen a lot of people (natually that way or not) try to make more out of it than it is. I think that's the part that really bothers me, when it becomes some greater cultural concept in the eyes of the individual, like when they feel that butches should date femmes and vice versa. Which in my mind is justing trying to emulate the straight world.

Well, there are a couple of different perspectives on that. Have you ever been to www.butch-femme.com ? It's a great community that I've participated in a bit myself. I'm a huge fan of the butch/femme dynamic, actually. I can see why some people would feel it's emulating the straight world, but I personally don't think that a butch woman is a man...therefore she isn't emulating anything. To me, a butch woman is just that: a female who has masculine traits. To oversimplify it a bit: just because I think butch women are really hot doesn't mean I want to date a guy. There are things about being a butch woman that just do not mesh with being male.

As for trying to be something you're not...well, I always want to be the butch one, but I'm hopelessly femme! There are a few different reasons I'd like to be butch. First, I think butches are totally sexy. I want to be sexy too! Also, I wish it were easier for people to recognize me as a dyke. When I pass people on the street, the possibility that I'm gay doesn't enter their minds. Why should it? The overwhelming majority of people in my area (and many others) are heterosexual, so why should people think I'm any different? (There are places you can go - the Castro, the Village - where people don't make those assumptions, but most of the U.S. does.) So I'd like to be able to be recognized as a dyke without having to tell people, which is why I used to festoon my backpack with gay pins in college and why I have rainbow stickers all over my car. So I guess it's not so much that I want to butch, but rather I want to be recognizably lesbian. I do love being femme, though, so I wouldn't make any attempt to change...it wouldn't work!

 

[Equinoxe]

Well, there are a couple of different perspectives on that. Have you ever been to www.butch-femme.com ? It's a great community that I've participated in a bit myself. I'm a huge fan of the butch/femme dynamic, actually. I can see why some people would feel it's emulating the straight world, but I personally don't think that a butch woman is a man...therefore she isn't emulating anything. To me, a butch woman is just that: a female who has masculine traits. To oversimplify it a bit: just because I think butch women are really hot doesn't mean I want to date a guy. There are things about being a butch woman that just do not mesh with being male.

As for trying to be something you're not...well, I always want to be the butch one, but I'm hopelessly femme! There are a few different reasons I'd like to be butch. First, I think butches are totally sexy. I want to be sexy too! Also, I wish it were easier for people to recognize me as a dyke. When I pass people on the street, the possibility that I'm gay doesn't enter their minds. Why should it? The overwhelming majority of people in my area (and many others) are heterosexual, so why should people think I'm any different? (There are places you can go - the Castro, the Village - where people don't make those assumptions, but most of the U.S. does.) So I'd like to be able to be recognized as a dyke without having to tell people, which is why I used to festoon my backpack with gay pins in college and why I have rainbow stickers all over my car. So I guess it's not so much that I want to butch, but rather I want to be recognizably lesbian. I do love being femme, though, so I wouldn't make any attempt to change...it wouldn't work!

Suffice it to say, I disagree. I think the butch-femme dynamic is foolish and a contrived attempt to emulate the straight world. Having said that, it's none of my business (I don't buy into the contrived distinction and remain outside of it) and I'm just commenting. It's not that I think a butch is a man, I think they are generally pretending to be like a man (adopted male clothes, male hair styles, male attitudes, etc.). Secondly, I don't see how that has any correlation to whom she would find attractive. That's the part that I actually have a problem with. If a woman is a butch, it is her perogative and I do not hold it against her. I just see no reason why that should mean that she should date a femme (as it were) or that a femme should date her.

Also, there is no justification, upon this plane of existence or any other, for having a mullet.

As to the later, I don't really know what to offer you on that, except I think it's a little silly, but we're all a little silly. I see no reason to want to be perceived, by appearance, as gay, I mean beyond practical concerns of not being hit on by men, etc etc etc.

Personally, I don't think being butch is attractive, I think it's very unattractive in fact, from a purely aesthetic stand-point. To use an analogy I used on here the other day, I consider it like dressing a 17th century French Chateau up as a mud-hovel.

I'm consistent on this even when it is very clearly none of my business, as I object to the same sorts of classifications amongst gay men. I think it's silly and contrived and an attempt to rebel against and in the process emulate straight society. Although that often happens one when rebels against something (life often works a bit like a Chinese Finger Trap, the harder you try the more you don't succeed).

Ultimately, I don't care how this person dresses or carries his or her self or whether they date persons who dress or carry themselves the same way or differently. I'm just utterly opposed to some attempt to contrive gender roles within same-sex relationships, it's not a natural occurrence or normal happenstance.

I think this relates to my overall opinion of the idea of the GLBT community as a whole really.

 

[John Doe]

Suffice it to say, I disagree. I think the butch-femme dynamic is foolish and a contrived attempt to emulate the straight world. Having said that, it's none of my business (I don't buy into the contrived distinction and remain outside of it) and I'm just commenting. It's not that I think a butch is a man, I think they are generally pretending to be like a man (adopted male clothes, male hair styles, male attitudes, etc.). Secondly, I don't see how that has any correlation to whom she would find attractive. That's the part that I actually have a problem with. If a woman is a butch, it is her perogative and I do not hold it against her. I just see no reason why that should mean that she should date a femme (as it were) or that a femme should date her.

Also, there is no justification, upon this plane of existence or any other, for having a mullet.

As to the later, I don't really know what to offer you on that, except I think it's a little silly, but we're all a little silly. I see no reason to want to be perceived, by appearance, as gay, I mean beyond practical concerns of not being hit on by men, etc etc etc.

Personally, I don't think being butch is attractive, I think it's very unattractive in fact, from a purely aesthetic stand-point. To use an analogy I used on here the other day, I consider it like dressing a 17th century French Chateau up as a mud-hovel.

I'm consistent on this even when it is very clearly none of my business, as I object to the same sorts of classifications amongst gay men. I think it's silly and contrived and an attempt to rebel against and in the process emulate straight society. Although that often happens one when rebels against something (life often works a bit like a Chinese Finger Trap, the harder you try the more you don't succeed).

Ultimately, I don't care how this person dresses or carries his or her self or whether they date persons who dress or carry themselves the same way or differently. I'm just utterly opposed to some attempt to contrive gender roles within same-sex relationships, it's not a natural occurrence or normal happenstance.

I think this relates to my overall opinion of the idea of the GLBT community as a whole really.

I tend to agree, especially about the butch-femme dynamic. It seems silly to me on the one hand to claim that homosexuality is not only a physical attraction, yet on the other hand say that it's perfectly legitimate or even sexy for a lesbian woman or a gay man to have masculine of feminine traits, respectively. In such cases one is attracted to traits which one identifies with the sex (or gender, whatever) one claims to be unattracted to.

so it leads me to wonder if it's not merely the traits one attracted to, or attracted to as coupled with different genitals, but merely the defiant, 'gender-bending' rebellion is the true attraction.

 

[Equinoxe]

I tend to agree, especially about the butch-femme dynamic. It seems silly to me on the one hand to claim that homosexuality is not only a physical attraction, yet on the other hand say that it's perfectly legitimate or even sexy for a lesbian woman or a gay man to have masculine of feminine traits, respectively. In such cases one is attracted to traits which one identifies with the sex (or gender, whatever) one claims to be unattracted to.

so it leads me to wonder if it's not merely the traits one attracted to, or attracted to as coupled with different genitals, but merely the defiant, 'gender-bending' rebellion is the true attraction.

I have often wondered that myself, I've never been able to satisfactorily explain (to myself) how a woman who does not find men attractive finds a woman who basically looks and acts like a man attractive.

I guess I just believe there's more too a woman than a vagina (which probably relates to why I don't think bisexuality is somehow inherently more noble).

 

[Etoile]

Also, there is no justification, upon this plane of existence or any other, for having a mullet.

I have no problem with our agreeing to disagree on most of this. I do, however, concur wholeheartedly with you on this point!

Personally, I don't think being butch is attractive, I think it's very unattractive in fact, from a purely aesthetic stand-point.

You will never ever convince me that k.d. lang is unattractive.