Are Many/Most Bi's Really Just Closet Hedonists?

[CandiCame]

Amy, I understood the point of your thread and thought the conversation would be as open as your wifey's was~ way back when we discussed it in the NEWS forum...but it just seems that people are so busy laying blame and pointing fingers that anyone who doesn't want to do either of those things gets lost in the crush. It's disheartening.

EVERY TIME, we have a conversation concerning bisexuality, pansexuality, rights, responsibilities, what ever~what starts off as a pretty good convo gets bogged down by utter contempt and hatred.

As one of those women who has NEVER attempted to be other than what I am, who has never attempted to force my beliefs on anyone and who has never engaged in sex with a gold star unless i knew I was free and clear to do so (like for the past 5 years) I don't get why so many bisexual people poke at those who don't want to fuck them, as if that is a bad thing.

I don't understand why so many bisexual people run in and out of the closet at whim. I don't comprehend the need to argue and divide ourselves against ourselves when we all KNOW that none of us are living the straight life (no matter how you color it). It upsets me, pisses me off and makes me want to smash things.

I hate to see the division anywhere, in Real Life or here...and it seems to me that most of hedonistic types give ALL bi/pan people a bad name because they are the loudest.



I never attack anyone, punkin...I am fuckin sweetness and light!

For me, it's not about being angry that someone doesn't want to fuck me- it's about being annoyed that the homosexual and heterosexual aspects of myself are seen as two vastly different things. I'm egocentric. I am. I'm also a sub. I'm loud. This, I'm pretty sure, was inbred in me; I literally used to go off on people when I heard the word 'project' because I couldn't hear it without hearing my mother's voice. Her kids were gonna be loud, goddamn it- you were going to hear them from the back of the auditorium, or they were gonna get the shit beaten out of them.

That doesn't come from my sexuality, that comes from my... well... insane mother...

And it does upset me that being a "gold star" gay is some kind of badge or some shit. I've never met anyone like that in RL. When you're with someone, you're with them because you love them- not because of who they've been with in the past. That kind of creeps me out. The only time that my mate's exes even come to mind is when I'm forced to interact with them. I never really liked my current's ex, but she got him kicked out of a social institution that meant a lot to him, because she was a liar- and that pisses me off to no end. Because she's a liar. Not because she's a woman. And I can't, for the life of me, understand why him liking women has anything to do with me. It doesn't make him more likely to cheat on me. It doesn't make me more likely to cheat on him. I've turned down hook-ups with hot chicks and hot guys, because I respect my man to much to cheat on him.

I'm with you. There's nothing to argue about. This entire thread was created to try and make bisexuals, especially bisexual men- feel bad about ourselves. The lady who created it has never been shy about her disdain for us, particularly for me- she's been on my case since my first day here. And every time you try to explain that "Gay rights" are human rights she tries to call you out on it. We should all be working together. There's no reason to point fingers at people screaming, "Oh, people's gender doesn't matter to you, you're a selfish dick."

Yet that is what has happened here. And apparently, she wants an explanation. We, or at least I, try to explain, and are met with nothing but contempt. Anger at fear- which is a kick in the balls, BTW. Some of us don't want to be martyrs because we are chicken shit. There's nothing noble about it, no defending it, but there are still people around here being killed, which is why my man is not "out". He's out when people don't know us. It's also why I'm not out around my family. Those people have guns. They will kill me. For stupid motherfucking reasons. It's the reason I moved away from them- having the gay is not the only stupid thing that will get you shot. I take people back to my hometown and they get fucking scared.

I don't really go in and out of the closet on a whim- I do it based on the likelihood of my survival. Will I get beaten up for my orientation? Yes. Will I get killed for it? No. I'm not strong enough, and in some places, that's still a valid question. We, all of us, here, are from diverse backgrounds. We don't really know what's going on with everyone else. And I think that we would all do a lot better if we actually tried to understand instead of making rash judgments from fantasies we read on a pornography forum; if we worked together, and tried to make this a more understanding place.

When I was first coming to terms with myself, I found this board. I found it because I wanted a place to publish my fantasies, my stories. And I found the forums, and so many people were nice to me that it was easy to ignore the ones who were not. All in all, this place is a good haven. There are folk with experience who are capable of walking you through what can be one of the hardest times in your life. And I like it. But I do have to ignore some people. That's going to be true no matter where you go.

Sorry for the long post... The bullet point to take away from it is that you're right. We're stronger as a unit then as some bickering, writhing mass. And though it might be fun to be catty on bullshit threads like this, there are real people here who are actually confused, who do need support. And I think we can be that to.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Luna,

You're right and as I said I take responsibility for being reactive and responding in kind. (it just gets really old being attacked, ya know?).

I also think it's disheartening that we can't discuss Bi/pansexuality without a lot of name calling, foot stomping and people calling threads like this "bullshit" because they feel threatened.

For my part the ultimate intent of this thread was to actually try to better understand Bi and Pan people. I know I have a BUNCH of preconceived notions and biases. I know they do as well. They only way to address those is through communication.

Sadly, communication ceases as soon as somebody like Stella or Candicame decide they don't like something and fuck up the thread like a bunch of immature dumbasses and then people like me react in kind.

Wanna start over and just put the trolls on ignore and try to have a CONSRUCTIVE conversation on what I consider to be an important subject?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Candicame,

If you REALLY wanted to be supportive of unity you wouldn't fuck up threads by posting juvenile anime crap with the sole purpose of disrupting them. So I guess I'm calling bullshit.

I know you think it's "fun to be catty on bullshit threads like this" but I'd appreciate it if you would have your "fun" in your own thread. Adults want to discuss something of import here and you and your fellow trolls are being disruptive.

However, if you wish to add CONSTRUCTIVE comments you are welcome. I'm not saying you have to agree with me, just stop with the crappy harassment posts.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Whoah. GB in GLBT.

I won't say that you can't expect Lit to follow your rules, because of course you can expect anything you want, however ridiculous.

But I will point out that you will be doomed to failure.

The best way to not let people's comments derail your thread is to not react to them. I posted a LOT of constructive comments, which you have mostly ignored, blowing up about one or two asides instead.

Go back, re-read some of my previous posts, see if anything I said makes any sense to you.

If you want to understand people, listen to what they say.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

For me, it's not about being angry that someone doesn't want to fuck me- it's about being annoyed that the homosexual and heterosexual aspects of myself are seen as two vastly different things. I'm egocentric. I am. I'm also a sub. I'm loud. This, I'm pretty sure, was inbred in me; I literally used to go off on people when I heard the word 'project' because I couldn't hear it without hearing my mother's voice. Her kids were gonna be loud, goddamn it- you were going to hear them from the back of the auditorium, or they were gonna get the shit beaten out of them.

That doesn't come from my sexuality, that comes from my... well... insane mother...

And it does upset me that being a "gold star" gay is some kind of badge or some shit. I've never met anyone like that in RL. When you're with someone, you're with them because you love them- not because of who they've been with in the past. That kind of creeps me out. The only time that my mate's exes even come to mind is when I'm forced to interact with them. I never really liked my current's ex, but she got him kicked out of a social institution that meant a lot to him, because she was a liar- and that pisses me off to no end. Because she's a liar. Not because she's a woman. And I can't, for the life of me, understand why him liking women has anything to do with me. It doesn't make him more likely to cheat on me. It doesn't make me more likely to cheat on him. I've turned down hook-ups with hot chicks and hot guys, because I respect my man to much to cheat on him.

I'm with you. There's nothing to argue about. This entire thread was created to try and make bisexuals, especially bisexual men- feel bad about ourselves. The lady who created it has never been shy about her disdain for us, particularly for me- she's been on my case since my first day here. And every time you try to explain that "Gay rights" are human rights she tries to call you out on it. We should all be working together. There's no reason to point fingers at people screaming, "Oh, people's gender doesn't matter to you, you're a selfish dick."

Yet that is what has happened here. And apparently, she wants an explanation. We, or at least I, try to explain, and are met with nothing but contempt. Anger at fear- which is a kick in the balls, BTW. Some of us don't want to be martyrs because we are chicken shit. There's nothing noble about it, no defending it, but there are still people around here being killed, which is why my man is not "out". He's out when people don't know us. It's also why I'm not out around my family. Those people have guns. They will kill me. For stupid motherfucking reasons. It's the reason I moved away from them- having the gay is not the only stupid thing that will get you shot. I take people back to my hometown and they get fucking scared.

I don't really go in and out of the closet on a whim- I do it based on the likelihood of my survival. Will I get beaten up for my orientation? Yes. Will I get killed for it? No. I'm not strong enough, and in some places, that's still a valid question. We, all of us, here, are from diverse backgrounds. We don't really know what's going on with everyone else. And I think that we would all do a lot better if we actually tried to understand instead of making rash judgments from fantasies we read on a pornography forum; if we worked together, and tried to make this a more understanding place.

When I was first coming to terms with myself, I found this board. I found it because I wanted a place to publish my fantasies, my stories. And I found the forums, and so many people were nice to me that it was easy to ignore the ones who were not. All in all, this place is a good haven. There are folk with experience who are capable of walking you through what can be one of the hardest times in your life. And I like it. But I do have to ignore some people. That's going to be true no matter where you go.

Sorry for the long post... The bullet point to take away from it is that you're right. We're stronger as a unit then as some bickering, writhing mass. And though it might be fun to be catty on bullshit threads like this, there are real people here who are actually confused, who do need support. And I think we can be that to.

The point is that no matter how you color it~ANY ONE should be able to start a conversation to gain understanding. It shouldn't matter whether it's a gold star lesbian, a gay male, a straight couple. The divisiveness comes into play when people decide that for whatever reason they are going to be offended no matter what the OP says or asks.

That's what happened with this thread. People came in here and decided that AMY didn't have the right to ask, didn't have the right to question and then FURTHER decided that she was an asshole for even bringing it up.

I don't require a martyr for my rights. I have taken enough ass whippings for women's rights, black rights, gay rights that the only thing someone can do to me NOW is kill me. I refuse to live my life in a closet for anyone. I have lived in the south, in the north and have visited all over and the only thing I can say is no one has the right to judge anyone for their choices...and I damn sure WON'T.

But I also understand that not everyone is me and that the only way I can help someone see my point of view is to explain (in small words if necessary) why I feel the way I do. In a forum such as this one, that is all anyone HAS. Getting offended over it doesn't help, it only harms. PERIOD.

That was my point. Hottie Mama came and talked. She tried. Others did as well. And Amy answered those who attempted to have a conversation with respect, even if she didn't agree. I didn't see her behaving like a troll. (In all honesty, I didn't see you behaving troll like either, at first or even sexy Stella...)

If one doesn't like the way the conversation is tending, why can't you just leave the thread alone and let those of us who still have something to say, SAY it? Why is that so fucking difficult?

Luna,

You're right and as I said I take responsibility for being reactive and responding in kind. (it just gets really old being attacked, ya know?).

I also think it's disheartening that we can't discuss Bi/pansexuality without a lot of name calling, foot stomping and people calling threads like this "bullshit" because they feel threatened.

For my part the ultimate intent of this thread was to actually try to better understand Bi and Pan people. I know I have a BUNCH of preconceived notions and biases. I know they do as well. They only way to address those is through communication.

Sadly, communication ceases as soon as somebody like Stella or Candicame decide they don't like something and fuck up the thread like a bunch of immature dumbasses and then people like me react in kind.

Wanna start over and just put the trolls on ignore and try to have a CONSRUCTIVE conversation on what I consider to be an important subject?

Baby doll...as long as you wanna talk about it, I am willing. There were some good points through out this thread, even when it was derailed. I would like to get back to the basis of the thread...since to me, it wasn't a question that deserved the amount of vitrol thrown at it.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

*double post*

 

[Stella_Omega]

That's what happened with this thread. People came in here and decided that AMY didn't have the right to ask, didn't have the right to question and then FURTHER decided that she was an asshole for even bringing it up.

Well, she is an asshole in the ways that she brings things up. She has the right to question,and she has the right to re-state her questions, she even has the right to load her words with disapproval and blame...

But she has NO ability to force everyone else to ignore her attacks, or not defend themselves, or stop them playing games to demonstrate their own irritation.

So it's going to happen.

 

[CandiCame]

The point is that no matter how you color it~ANY ONE should be able to start a conversation to gain understanding. It shouldn't matter whether it's a gold star lesbian, a gay male, a straight couple. The divisiveness comes into play when people decide that for whatever reason they are going to be offended no matter what the OP says or asks.

That's what happened with this thread. People came in here and decided that AMY didn't have the right to ask, didn't have the right to question and then FURTHER decided that she was an asshole for even bringing it up.

I don't require a martyr for my rights. I have taken enough ass whippings for women's rights, black rights, gay rights that the only thing someone can do to me NOW is kill me. I refuse to live my life in a closet for anyone. I have lived in the south, in the north and have visited all over and the only thing I can say is no one has the right to judge anyone for their choices...and I damn sure WON'T.

But I also understand that not everyone is me and that the only way I can help someone see my point of view is to explain (in small words if necessary) why I feel the way I do. In a forum such as this one, that is all anyone HAS. Getting offended over it doesn't help, it only harms. PERIOD.

That was my point. Hottie Mama came and talked. She tried. Others did as well. And Amy answered those who attempted to have a conversation with respect, even if she didn't agree. I didn't see her behaving like a troll. (In all honesty, I didn't see you behaving troll like either, at first or even sexy Stella...)

If one doesn't like the way the conversation is tending, why can't you just leave the thread alone and let those of us who still have something to say, SAY it? Why is that so fucking difficult?



Baby doll...as long as you wanna talk about it, I am willing. There were some good points through out this thread, even when it was derailed. I would like to get back to the basis of the thread...since to me, it wasn't a question that deserved the amount of vitrol thrown at it.

And were it to gain understanding, that would be great. That would be a discussion. But bottom line is; it wasn't. It was just a way to call bisexuals selfish because she has stated, multiple times, that she doesn't like us.

And as for me asking about a guys avatar, that wasn't derailing a thread, it was, at most, 4 posts- the on-line equivalency, in a gay thread on hedonism of me saying, "Hey, I'm egocentric- other guy I like your avatar. I'm hitting on you." In RL it would've been, "Hey other guy, I like your body. I'm hitting on you."

And I did explain myself- I was ignored. I've explained my take on this several times, but it isn't what she wants to hear. And did she have a right to bitch us out, unprovoked? Probably. It's the internet. Freedom of speech and all that. But like Stella said, there's no reason to be a bitch about it, and no reason that others have to sit and pretend that she wasn't. We're not really a coddling type of folk- and certainly not when we're being attacked.

I gotta get me a crusafix in here, all Bird Cage and shit. I hear it's the prop for martyrs.

Damn, I really thought I would be able to find an internet meme of that, but I can't. So I'm just gonna use this and you guys can use your imaginations:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-H2KIKhvBhTY/Tg5INOHDr8I/AAAAAAAAB4w/nsLCjoxWQHg/s1600/the%2Bbirdcage%2B1996.jpg

 

[Stella_Omega]

I hate to answer the question with another question, but, why is it always necessary for people to wear a label? You know, just be 'people.'
To each his, or her own.

Two reasons:

One is that these labels are often placed upon us by someone else, not something we seek out. These tend to be derogatory. Labels like "just hedonist" for instance. Or "faggot" or "slut" or "straight white man." These are not labels we would choose for ourselves, but they describe what we are in relation to our environment.

The better reason, is that labels let us know what to expect from each other. When someone who labels herself a "bisexual lesbian," for instance, meets someone who labels herself a "Gold Star lesbian," she understands that the Gold Star might have certain preferences which the bisexual probably won't be able to satisfy.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Baby doll...as long as you wanna talk about it, I am willing. There were some good points through out this thread, even when it was derailed. I would like to get back to the basis of the thread...since to me, it wasn't a question that deserved the amount of vitrol thrown at it.

Okay, munckin. . (BTW, one of these days I'm gonna grab a hand full of your hair and plant a hard one right on those pouty lips of yours for being so sensible)

Anyways, back on topic (pointedly ignoring the trolls).


Here's my deal. I think that it is politically IMPERATIVE that the Gays and Lesbians band together with the Bi community if we are ever going to achieve equality. To be honest we need each others numbers. The gist of this thread is me trying to determine what those numbers are AND whether if the majority of self described Bis have a commitment to the fight.

That brings me back to hedonism. If all a person is concerned with is getting off, then more power to them. I hope it happens every fucking day. But my concern is they have NO commitment to equality. They have no interest in marrying a person because many of them, if they're Bi, already have all the benefits because they have at least a 50% chance of marrying a person they are capable of loving.

That said, my biggest concern are the "Bis" who are in it strictly for the sex. They can get that on the low down if nothing else. There's no commitment to SS marriage, equality or fighting for a place besides the hetero majority cuz for them it's all about the sex and little else.

So my question is how do we identify the wheat from the chaff when everyone is calling themselves the same thing? How do the ones of us who have a vested interest in more then fucking identify and support each other?

Cuz frankly, I have no desire to expend my own blood, sweat and tears so that some bi dude can lick pussy while getting fucked in the ass. I prefer to reserve those limited resources to support people who are fighting for the same goals I am.

So, my dearest Daddy-nater, does that make sense?

 

[HottieMama]

So my question is how do we identify the wheat from the chaff when everyone is calling themselves the same thing? How do the ones of us who have a vested interest in more then fucking identify and support each other?

Safe_Bet, I think this is when it comes down to getting to know a person beyond the label. Getting to know their story on a personal level, and learning what they are and are not passionate about. Online this is difficult. We ALL wear masks to a certain degree to protect ourselves, and rightly so. Real-time, it is not as complicated to find out where someone stands on issues that go beyond who and/or how they are going to fuck tonight. What I find difficult at times, is that some people are not willing to even BEGIN one of these discussions and judge the entire group by a (false) blanket statement.

 

[Stella_Omega]

So my question is how do we identify the wheat from the chaff when everyone is calling themselves the same thing? How do the ones of us who have a vested interest in more then fucking identify and support each other?

On the internet, or in real life?

On the internet, it doesn't matter, as long as you don't go falling in love with some cyber partner.

In real life, yeah, that could be a problem. People like Luna and I try our damnedest to be honest with the women we meet. Not everyone is, of course.

But there are two kinds of support-- one is interpersonal, meaning someone is looking for someone new in their life and don't want to be fooled. That's just the chance everyone everywhere has to take. For a Gold Star Lesbian with control issues, yeah-- I can see that there is a whole thick layer of potential betrayal impending in your mind. I think that might be something you'll have to deal with one person at a time.

Personally, I've gotten it from the other end-- used by a Gold Star who wanted to drive her partner away. She lied to me about her relationship. I did not lie to her about mine. She disrespected pretty much everyone around her, though, so I didn't take it personally-- after I got over the shock and hurt.


The other support of course, is political, and I constantly challenge the bicurious men here to support the people they are curious about.

 

[Safe_Bet]

Safe_Bet, I think this is when it comes down to getting to know a person beyond the label. Getting to know their story on a personal level, and learning what they are and are not passionate about. Online this is difficult. We ALL wear masks to a certain degree to protect ourselves, and rightly so. Real-time, it is not as complicated to find out where someone stands on issues that go beyond who and/or how they are going to fuck tonight. What I find difficult at times, is that some people are not willing to even BEGIN one of these discussions and judge the entire group by a (false) blanket statement.

I agree with you on a personal level, but that just doesn't work on a political level. I guess my issue IS blanket statements too, just from the opposite side.

When "we" address the politicians and "we" say there are a lot of supportive members of the GLBT community, they say, "how many of them will vote and donate?". If we respond that 75% of the total GLBT population will support them and it's really a much lower number because either the numbers have been artificially inflated or the "just Hedonists" are satisfied cuz they are getting theirs and could give a fuck about equalty cuz equality doesn't get them off, then we lose MASSIVE credibility that will take decades to regain.

We can afford that. That's why I believe getting a grip on who's actually what is important. See what I'm saying here? If not please let me know so I can better explain.

If you do, HOW do we do it???

 

[Stella_Omega]

So what you are saying is that you believe that the "just hedonists" will never care about supporting equal rights. it's probably true that an egotistic person will want to know what's in it for them. So, you have to convince the "just hedonists" that equal rights is good for them too. And that's not actually that hard to do, overall, despite the words of braindead idiots like that girl you ran into on facebook. In fact people like her make a good springboard for making onlookers disgusted by selfishness-- I've seen that happen.

 

[deckardB26354]

Lemme see if I got this straight (no pun intended)...

Here's my deal. I think that it is politically IMPERATIVE that the Gays and Lesbians band together with the Bi community if we are ever going to achieve equality. To be honest we need each others numbers. The gist of this thread is me trying to determine what those numbers are AND whether if the majority of self described Bis have a commitment to the fight.

That brings me back to hedonism. If all a person is concerned with is getting off, then more power to them. I hope it happens every fucking day. But my concern is they have NO commitment to equality. They have no interest in marrying a person because many of them, if they're Bi, already have all the benefits because they have at least a 50% chance of marrying a person they are capable of loving.

That said, my biggest concern are the "Bis" who are in it strictly for the sex. They can get that on the low down if nothing else. There's no commitment to SS marriage, equality or fighting for a place besides the hetero majority cuz for them it's all about the sex and little else.

So my question is how do we identify the wheat from the chaff when everyone is calling themselves the same thing? How do the ones of us who have a vested interest in more then fucking identify and support each other?

Cuz frankly, I have no desire to expend my own blood, sweat and tears so that some bi dude can lick pussy while getting fucked in the ass. I prefer to reserve those limited resources to support people who are fighting for the same goals I am.

I'm trying to break down Amy's last post into discussion points to see if they can't be addressed more simply.

Amy on (bi) hedonism and possibly bis in general:
FOR-
1. bis banding together with the GLBT community to help achieve equality
2. getting off ("more power to them")
------------------------------
AGAINST-
3. no commitment to equality
4. no interest in marrying because "...they already have all the benefits" if they're bi
5. bis are in it "strictly for the sex"
6. no commitment to same sex marriage
7. no commitment for equality
8. no commitment for "fighting for a place besides the hetero majority" (cuz they're only in it for the sex)
9. lastly-Amy doesn't want to partake in any sex, however good it might be, with a hedonistic bi unless she has proof that they are fighting for the GLBT cause (preferably in writing, in triplicate)

Discussion
First off, notice the ratio of positive vs. negative points.

1. completely agree. However your idea of "banding together" may not be the same as a bi individual that supports the same cause.
2. I think we can all agree on that one.
------------------------------
3. please define no commitment to equality? For myself, living in California, I have attended pride parades (as in marching in them) and voted against Prop 8 that tried to kill same sex marriage. I don't know what else you might want unless you are more of a militant person. Perhaps you'd demand that I stand on my desk at work, pronouncing my sexuality like it was out a scene from 'Norma Rae'...because that's not happening. My sexuality is my own goddamn business and nobody else's. If you like to wear bras with lit sparklers on them and shirt that says "I'M GAY"--that's your choice, it doesn't have to be mine.

4. I have no interest in marrying mainly because I was married before and it was one of the worst decisions I've ever made. Anyone should be able to marry and share the same employee benefits as well as to be able to make any and all legal and medical decisions for the couple. Just because someone doesn't want to marry doesn't make them evil or a threat to the GLBT community.

5. so what if they are? And really, who are you to generalize? As I posted awhile back, "what's it to ya?" If you aren't old enough, the least you can do is Google about the 1970's. Try 'Studio 54' and 'gay sex' for starters. That was the Golden Age of Hedonism some might argue, but there were a lot of gays that had multiple partners in just as many days. Are you going to argue that same point if they were all scorchingly gay? I would guess, no...but since the B word is brought up, there's some sort of license that you think you have to heap prejudice upon them. That's just wrong IMO.

6. again, tell me how you know this? See point #3 and tell me that I don't support full rights for GLBT folks to get married whenever they want to and have the same rights as every hetero couple in the world. Go ahead, call me a liar.

7. see points #3 and #4 and #6

8. again see points #3, #4, #5, #6 and #7

9. so you have a problem with someone not wanting to do any of the work to further a cause...do you think that all blacks risked their lives in protests to advance the civil rights cause? No. It's been documented that quite a few people of color were quite content to stay in the "closet" while their family and friends were spit on, talked down to, wrongly convicted and lynched. The GLBT cause, while certainly important to obtain victory, is not quite as intense as the civil rights cause was at the time if you review history and look at the total cost (that's still counting, btw). I'm trying to make a point here, so please don't come back at me with "I think the GLBT cause is nothing compared to civil rights". That's not what I'm saying. You have the ability to walk the streets in protest while fighting for GLBT issues and you're accepted for the most part. Try to be black in Alabama in 1960 and take the streets for your right to exist as a human being and try to escape without getting your skull crushed while the angry bystanders cheer them on.

I hope this helps clarify where I'm coming from as well as some others here as well. Are there a lot of people here looking to satisfy only themselves, sure you bet. There are also a lot of people here that are actually confused and looking for assistance in making a life changing choice. All it does, to call them hedonistic and discount their worth as a member of this online community, is to make you seem that much more of a bigot than what you seem to be fighting against. My .02

 

[Stella_Omega]

Cuz frankly, I have no desire to expend my own blood, sweat and tears so that some bi dude can lick pussy while getting fucked in the ass. I prefer to reserve those limited resources to support people who are fighting for the same goals I am.

Actually, it goes the opposite way-- we are requesting that sexually-oriented bisexuals support other goals as well as their one.

And quite rightly, IMO.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Okay, munckin. . (BTW, one of these days I'm gonna grab a hand full of your hair and plant a hard one right on those pouty lips of yours for being so sensible)

Anyways, back on topic (pointedly ignoring the trolls).


Here's my deal. I think that it is politically IMPERATIVE that the Gays and Lesbians band together with the Bi community if we are ever going to achieve equality. To be honest we need each others numbers. The gist of this thread is me trying to determine what those numbers are AND whether if the majority of self described Bis have a commitment to the fight.

That brings me back to hedonism. If all a person is concerned with is getting off, then more power to them. I hope it happens every fucking day. But my concern is they have NO commitment to equality. They have no interest in marrying a person because many of them, if they're Bi, already have all the benefits because they have at least a 50% chance of marrying a person they are capable of loving.

That said, my biggest concern are the "Bis" who are in it strictly for the sex. They can get that on the low down if nothing else. There's no commitment to SS marriage, equality or fighting for a place besides the hetero majority cuz for them it's all about the sex and little else.

So my question is how do we identify the wheat from the chaff when everyone is calling themselves the same thing? How do the ones of us who have a vested interest in more then fucking identify and support each other?

Cuz frankly, I have no desire to expend my own blood, sweat and tears so that some bi dude can lick pussy while getting fucked in the ass. I prefer to reserve those limited resources to support people who are fighting for the same goals I am.

So, my dearest Daddy-nater, does that make sense?

It makes utterly perfect sense on so many levels that I can not even begin to point out the things that wouldn't work.

The problem is two fold~how can we tell who is real and who is not AND who should we count when all the cards are on the table? In the real world, that's easier. We count the ones who stand up and proclaim (for the whole world to hear) that they are for GLBT rights, human rights, women's rights!

My bestie is heteroflexible. (very much so) Yet one of her best male friends committed suicide a few years back. She has been at every GLBT thing known to man in our tristate area ever since that time. She doesn't talk about it...but she donates her time, her money, her support~ to causes that matter to US without so much as a by your leave, even though she doesn't personally believe in the idea of gay marriage.

She says whether she believes in it or not, makes no never mind. EVERY one deserves to have that happiness and it doesn't have shit to do with HER life and so she supports it by her actions, even if her mouth says NO. You get what I am saying?

On the internet? There is no way for us to judge, not really. All we have are the words in front of us. People can type what they want but we have NO way of knowing if it's true or a simple fantasy. That makes the internet only thing more difficult.

Safe_Bet, I think this is when it comes down to getting to know a person beyond the label. Getting to know their story on a personal level, and learning what they are and are not passionate about. Online this is difficult. We ALL wear masks to a certain degree to protect ourselves, and rightly so. Real-time, it is not as complicated to find out where someone stands on issues that go beyond who and/or how they are going to fuck tonight. What I find difficult at times, is that some people are not willing to even BEGIN one of these discussions and judge the entire group by a (false) blanket statement.

*nods head in utter agreement*

That's what I was trying to say, but you said it better. The fact is we all have certain things we believe about groups whether we admit to them or not. Getting past the blanket statements and sexual politics takes time and more than words.

On the internet, or in real life?

On the internet, it doesn't matter, as long as you don't go falling in love with some cyber partner.

In real life, yeah, that could be a problem. People like Luna and I try our damnedest to be honest with the women we meet. Not everyone is, of course.

But there are two kinds of support-- one is interpersonal, meaning someone is looking for someone new in their life and don't want to be fooled. That's just the chance everyone everywhere has to take. For a Gold Star Lesbian with control issues, yeah-- I can see that there is a whole thick layer of potential betrayal impending in your mind. I think that might be something you'll have to deal with one person at a time.

Personally, I've gotten it from the other end-- used by a Gold Star who wanted to drive her partner away. She lied to me about her relationship. I did not lie to her about mine. She disrespected pretty much everyone around her, though, so I didn't take it personally-- after I got over the shock and hurt.


The other support of course, is political, and I constantly challenge the bicurious men here to support the people they are curious about.

Because you know the drill, Stella. Most people are willing to talk the talk, not so willing to walk the walk. Personally, I don't want to be just wank fodder for the unknowns. I am a person, one with thoughts, feelings, emotions.

People who come to the forums just for wank material do not advance the movement at all and (IMHO) only cause divisiveness where none should be. I don't deny their rights to do so, I do deny their rights to claim the word(s) bi/pan/omni sexual if they are NOT truly one of those things.

However, I would never say so...but I wouldn't bother to include them in my count of people who really worry about those involved in the fight for GLBT rights. Maybe that's harsh but it's true. I have taken my lumps, same as you, same as Amy...anyone not as committed in their own lives doesn't DESERVE to use a term that has been hard earned by those of us who are honest, forthright and mature.

My opinion, yours may vary.

I agree with you on a personal level, but that just doesn't work on a political level. I guess my issue IS blanket statements too, just from the opposite side.

When "we" address the politicians and "we" say there are a lot of supportive members of the GLBT community, they say, "how many of them will vote and donate?". If we respond that 75% of the total GLBT population will support them and it's really a much lower number because either the numbers have been artificially inflated or the "just Hedonists" are satisfied cuz they are getting theirs and could give a fuck about equalty cuz equality doesn't get them off, then we lose MASSIVE credibility that will take decades to regain.

We can afford that. That's why I believe getting a grip on who's actually what is important. See what I'm saying here? If not please let me know so I can better explain.

If you do, HOW do we do it???

See above punkin. As I will be fucked if I know how.

So what you are saying is that you believe that the "just hedonists" will never care about supporting equal rights. it's probably true that an egotistic person will want to know what's in it for them. So, you have to convince the "just hedonists" that equal rights is good for them too. And that's not actually that hard to do, overall, despite the words of braindead idiots like that girl you ran into on facebook. In fact people like her make a good springboard for making onlookers disgusted by selfishness-- I've seen that happen.

Actually, I have to agree for the most part with Amy on the "Just Hedonists" thoughts, for reasons I covered before. I don't expect anyone to martyr themselves for a cause, but if a person can lie, deny and sneak in and out of a closet on a whim...then why should they support our rights? What's really in it for them that they aren't already getting? Why should they have any say in what those rights are?

 

[girlsmiley]

Candicame,

If you REALLY wanted to be supportive of unity you wouldn't fuck up threads by posting juvenile anime crap with the sole purpose of disrupting them. So I guess I'm calling bullshit.

I know you think it's "fun to be catty on bullshit threads like this" but I'd appreciate it if you would have your "fun" in your own thread. Adults want to discuss something of import here and you and your fellow trolls are being disruptive.

However, if you wish to add CONSTRUCTIVE comments you are welcome. I'm not saying you have to agree with me, just stop with the crappy harassment posts.

Not only does candicame purposely hijack threads, he purposely bands together with other trolls like fenderbender over on the GB to say how much I'm supposedly attracted to him. Just last night ffs! What you on that many drugs Candicame you don't remember 10 hours ago? And don't say, yes. He KNOWS I'm a lesbian, he just wants to fuck with me because he's an immature little git. I get that.

Just like Amy has said how she doesn't hate all men. How many times did she have to say it, Candicame?
You and that band of trolls just didn't want to hear it. You just sat around and poked and prodded at her, just like you, the other biCURIOUS trolls and Stella did (and still CONTINUE to do) on this thread.

Dude, do you really have the audacity to come on to Amys thread and bitch and complain after purposely trying to derail it? Wtf Candicame. I hear people complaining about how they don't like the topic of this thread. Well how the hell do you think it makes us feel when douche bags come out and say "do lesbians hate men?" And when we say no they come over and say, "oh yeah you do"

And the solution you and that witch came up with was to post kids cartoons. Because you had no argument. Because you had NOTHING to add.

Look at how Stella is acting right now. She's still here pointing the blame at Amy, saying that Amy got what she deserved for starting this thread. Tell you something, Stella. Bitches like you wouldn't last 5 minutes in my company. I would have the boys toss you out on the street like some two bit hussy.

You're more of a cunt than ANYONE I have come across over on the GB.



To all the rest of you... Thank you for your contributions.


Amy, I'm sorry you've had to cop as much shit as you have over the last couple of weeks here in GLBT. Yes, it's been a real eye-opener for me

 

[girlsmiley]

Okay, munckin. . (BTW, one of these days I'm gonna grab a hand full of your hair and plant a hard one right on those pouty lips of yours for being so sensible)

Anyways, back on topic (pointedly ignoring the trolls).


Here's my deal. I think that it is politically IMPERATIVE that the Gays and Lesbians band together with the Bi community if we are ever going to achieve equality. To be honest we need each others numbers. The gist of this thread is me trying to determine what those numbers are AND whether if the majority of self described Bis have a commitment to the fight.

That brings me back to hedonism. If all a person is concerned with is getting off, then more power to them. I hope it happens every fucking day. But my concern is they have NO commitment to equality. They have no interest in marrying a person because many of them, if they're Bi, already have all the benefits because they have at least a 50% chance of marrying a person they are capable of loving.

That said, my biggest concern are the "Bis" who are in it strictly for the sex. They can get that on the low down if nothing else. There's no commitment to SS marriage, equality or fighting for a place besides the hetero majority cuz for them it's all about the sex and little else.

So my question is how do we identify the wheat from the chaff when everyone is calling themselves the same thing? How do the ones of us who have a vested interest in more then fucking identify and support each other?

Cuz frankly, I have no desire to expend my own blood, sweat and tears so that some bi dude can lick pussy while getting fucked in the ass. I prefer to reserve those limited resources to support people who are fighting for the same goals I am.

So, my dearest Daddy-nater, does that make sense?

The wheat from the chaff?
Well, I don't think I've heard of that one.

Safe_Bet, I think this is when it comes down to getting to know a person beyond the label. Getting to know their story on a personal level, and learning what they are and are not passionate about. Online this is difficult. We ALL wear masks to a certain degree to protect ourselves, and rightly so. Real-time, it is not as complicated to find out where someone stands on issues that go beyond who and/or how they are going to fuck tonight. What I find difficult at times, is that some people are not willing to even BEGIN one of these discussions and judge the entire group by a (false) blanket statement.

Good post. Sure I can dig that.
Not a mask though. So cliche.
How about safety goggles?

I agree with you on a personal level, but that just doesn't work on a political level. I guess my issue IS blanket statements too, just from the opposite side.

When "we" address the politicians and "we" say there are a lot of supportive members of the GLBT community, they say, "how many of them will vote and donate?". If we respond that 75% of the total GLBT population will support them and it's really a much lower number because either the numbers have been artificially inflated or the "just Hedonists" are satisfied cuz they are getting theirs and could give a fuck about equalty cuz equality doesn't get them off, then we lose MASSIVE credibility that will take decades to regain.

We can afford that. That's why I believe getting a grip on who's actually what is important. See what I'm saying here? If not please let me know so I can better explain.

If you do, HOW do we do it???

Hmm. I'll think about this and get back to you after netball.

 

[deckardB26354]

Actually, I have to agree for the most part with Amy on the "Just Hedonists" thoughts, for reasons I covered before. I don't expect anyone to martyr themselves for a cause, but if a person can lie, deny and sneak in and out of a closet on a whim...then why should they support our rights? What's really in it for them that they aren't already getting? Why should they have any say in what those rights are?

Again apologies all around, but...are you out of your fucking mind?

So just because someone's closet door is stuck open, the GLBT cause doesn't need their help? Maybe you'd prefer that they should fight against it? Maybe like those hypocritical fucks in Washington (same for the religious idiots too) that do everything in their power to kill every bit of gay rights, only to be caught with a cock in their mouths? Sorry, but you have a lot to learn about human rights and respect for your fellow earthlings.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Again apologies all around, but...are you out of your fucking mind?

So just because someone's closet door is stuck open, the GLBT cause doesn't need their help? Maybe you'd prefer that they should fight against it? Maybe like those hypocritical fucks in Washington (same for the religious idiots too) that do everything in their power to kill every bit of gay rights, only to be caught with a cock in their mouths? Sorry, but you have a lot to learn about human rights and respect for your fellow earthlings.

That isn't WHAT I said. Or didn't you read what I said about my friend who is heteroflexible. I DO have a problem with bi people who are only bi when the lights are out and their dicks or pussy's are getting pleasured. I DO have a problem with people who only support our rights when it is convenient for them to do so.

Anyone can say they support our rights but if they are NOT willing to walk the walk, I don't want to hear from them. THAT is what I said. THAT is what I meant.

My bestie is mostly straight. Yet she supports our rights with every breath in her body. She doesn't admit that she digs girls in a sexual way BUT she supports us ANY flippin way. THAT is what counts.

I have been struggling for quite a few years as a black queer female. Excuse me if i don't buy that bullshit about the closet. Anyone can support us, in the closet or not...but don't talk about it, BE about it...or keep your trap shut. How is that difficult to understand?

 

[Stella_Omega]

If folk REALLY want to fight for gay rights and fight political battles, some productive grounds are the craigslist.org forums and http://huffingtonpost.com.

If someone wants to be a lesbian amongst other lesbians, google is thier friend. (and some of those forums have ten, twenty moderators, all intent on keeping things civil)

Literotica is a porn site.

There is porn here.

People come here for the porn.

And many of them end up finding their way to this particular forum in order to say that they hope to be fucked in the butt just once before they die.

That's what happens on any GLBT forum hosted at a PORN SITE.

We can bring issues to this forum. But if someone is going to tie themselves into knots at the ways in which this site does not meet their expectations, I can tell you from experience-- they are wasting their time.

 

[Luna_Wolf72]

Stella~

I get your point. I do. But there is no law that says you can't have a conversation about things on a porn site.

There is nothing stopping anyone from leaving the thread alone if they have had their say. There is nothing stopping anyone from iggying whomever.

I am entitled to my opinion, so are you and deckard and whomever else. I don't try to beat people in the head with my opinion but I do stand by it and I do walk the talk in real life.

I have learned quite a few good things from this thread...and i am sure others have too. Lit may be a porn site but it is also a place where like minded people talk/write/whatever...

The GLBT forum doesn't only HAVE to be about who masturbated last, you dig?

 

[Safe_Bet]

Stella: Read the little line under the Forum title... I'll wait...

See where it says "DISCUSSIONS of non-straight sexuality and LIFE"?

This is the life part. Fucking deal with it.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Darlings, of course you can talk about anything you want-- and we do.

I've started a lot of threads here, about the life and issues, I've even turned wank threads into threads about the issues. I was able to move a whole bunch of wanking threads away from this forum, even-- but what we have here is what it is. More nuanced conversation happens more often elsewhere.

You can walk out onto the beach and blame the sand for being sandy, if you want. But the sand will go on being sandy.