Avoiding Toxic Masculinity in BDSM

[PrettyLilPussy19]

I see examples of toxic masculinity in daily life and our culture is growing less and less accepting of this behavior. But I see the same things promoted and often aspired to in the BDSM community.

What are some ways we can grow and mature and embrace our men in BDSM without the toxic traits?

Some examples:

• the need to be/or be perceived as tough always

• heterosexism or the inability to share space non-sexually with queer people

• emotional insensitivity

• the need to dominate women (in a non sexual way)

• stoicism/arrogance

Just curious if this is on anyone else's radar?

 

[Acktion]

I tend to be simple-minded (one might almost say addle-pated) about such things. For example, in this case, "toxicity" meaning "poisonous."

Somewhere around here (maybe the DD/lg), I mentioned that as the capitalized side of the slash, it was my responsibility to make myself grow larger so that she (and only ever she, sorry fellas) wouldn't have to diminish herself to remain in my shelter which she would otherwise find too confining.

Or as I put it to someone during a conversation a while back... People and our interactions with them are food for our minds and our soul. If the banquet only ever makes you spiritually sick, then you need to back away from that particular dish. Maybe they aren't rotten or poisonous. Maybe they are just a sugary confection that doesn't nourish you.



I don't know. That's probably pretty simplistic. Or maybe even... eh... somewhat demanding of me. I mean, to the best of my knowledge, no one was put on this ball of rock with the specific intent that they will entertain and instruct me. Of course, no one was put on this ball of rock with the specific intent that they will entertain and instruct you either.



No. I readily acknowledge that there are other purposes, other reasons for anyone to move about their day and do the things that they do. And, quite often, interactions are incidental and irrelevant until and unless one or the other specifically searches out that interaction with the other.



To continue the food analogy, our mind, our heart, or our spirit is hungry for the nourishment that only interacting with another person can provide.



And... well, just like food for our plate, sometimes we pick someone to interact with because we think they'll "taste good." Other times, we're starving and stand in the pantry shoveling anything available in our mouths.



And, still other times we KNOW that it isn't good for us, but we just don't know what else to eat.



And then there are the meals that we eat and two hours later, we're hungry again.



I don't know. I truly don't. But, it just seems to me that if talking with someone, interacting with them, makes you feel worse afterward, no matter how much you might have enjoyed it while you were at the table... then, that's not a healthy diet for you to subject yourself to.



I totally get the excitement in sitting down to feed your mind, heart, and soul with interacting with someone. But, afterward, I think you should feel better. Calmer. More centered, not less. Stronger. Fit. More capable. Able to do. Replete.



If you don't feel those things... if instead, you feel consistently empty and sick in your soul... then perhaps it's time to stop ordering off that menu?



Meh. Why do I feel like this has turned into an asparagus dish smothered in too much cheese? (With maybe a little too much salt.)

 

[Primalex]

I'm more curious about examples of non-toxic masculinity.

 

[jaF0]

^^^ Then people say you're weak minded and unable to take control.

 

[KimGordon67]

^^^ Then people say you're weak minded and unable to take control.

LOL. What people?

 

[DarkPrimalRose]

I see examples of toxic masculinity in daily life and our culture is growing less and less accepting of this behavior. But I see the same things promoted and often aspired to in the BDSM community.

What are some ways we can grow and mature and embrace our men in BDSM without the toxic traits?

Some examples:

• the need to be/or be perceived as tough always

• heterosexism or the inability to share space non-sexually with queer people

• emotional insensitivity

• the need to dominate women (in a non sexual way)

• stoicism/arrogance

Just curious if this is on anyone else's radar?

For a couple of years, I 'left' the lifestyle precisely because of toxic-masculinity. It got to the point that the male lovers I had automatically assumed that because I'm a bottom and submissive that I will automatically submit to them, and that because being dominant is somehow genetically encoded into their cis-male genes--that was their right to be dominant, and they expected all women to submit.

Not to mention, they always had to be 'right'. Even when they were wrong.

I wondered, and still do, if 50 Shades didn't reinforce this notion.

So I stopped entertaining this side of me with my next lovers, and it was only with my ex-girlfriend who reintroduced me into BDSM, and it became an intense, though short, relationship, but it was much needed because it helped me shake off that toxic masculinity that I began to associate with BDSM, and D/s in particular. After we went our ways, she actually introduced me to my next dominant, and he was also wonderful and we were able to explore another dimension before we parted ways.

TL;DR: there are some who are very much trying to change the toxic masculinity environment.

 

[Primalex]

Consent.
Talking. Always talking. Communication.
Respecting boundaries.

If those are traits of masculinity, then there is a staggering amount of masculine women out there.

 

[KimGordon67]

For a couple of years, I 'left' the lifestyle precisely because of toxic-masculinity. It got to the point that the male lovers I had automatically assumed that because I'm a bottom and submissive that I will automatically submit to them, and that because being dominant is somehow genetically encoded into their cis-male genes--that was their right to be dominant, and they expected all women to submit.

Not to mention, they always had to be 'right'. Even when they were wrong.

I wondered, and still do, if 50 Shades didn't reinforce this notion.

So I stopped entertaining this side of me with my next lovers, and it was only with my ex-girlfriend who reintroduced me into BDSM, and it became an intense, though short, relationship, but it was much needed because it helped me shake off that toxic masculinity that I began to associate with BDSM, and D/s in particular. After we went our ways, she actually introduced me to my next dominant, and he was also wonderful and we were able to explore another dimension before we parted ways.

TL;DR: there are some who are very much trying to change the toxic masculinity environment.

**STRONG LANGUAGE WARNING**

I feel like what you're describing here is a tendency for a certain type of guy to be attracted to (their perception of) d/s because it seems to give them carte blanche to be cunts. But they were cunts before they 'discovered' being dominant.

 

[KimGordon67]

If those are traits of masculinity, then there is a staggering amount of masculine women out there.

They're traits of non-toxic masculinity, aka 'being a decent human man being'.

 

[wicked woman]

I see examples of toxic masculinity in daily life and our culture is growing less and less accepting of this behavior. But I see the same things promoted and often aspired to in the BDSM community.

What are some ways we can grow and mature and embrace our men in BDSM without the toxic traits?

Some examples:

• the need to be/or be perceived as tough always

• heterosexism or the inability to share space non-sexually with queer people

• emotional insensitivity

• the need to dominate women (in a non sexual way)

• stoicism/arrogance

Just curious if this is on anyone else's radar?

Can't say it's on my radar. It was majorly on my radar when I was raising my sons though, because I wanted them to grow up to be well-adjusted, healthy humans and not the stereotypical man. I think it's much easier to teach a child well than to change an adult.

As for men in the BDSM community, in real life I don't see a lot of it. When I do, I make it clear that it's unacceptable. For the most part, even from my introduction to people into BDSM, the majority of men were not like this. As an example, the dominating anyone you were not in a D/s relationship, even as far as expecting an honorific, was frowned on.

As for those online, I don't know that it's specific to BDSM. Some people just let the worst in them come out online.

I'm not a man, but I've often thought that society does our men a huge disservice, especially in thinking that as men, they aren't allowed to be vulnerable or emotional, but need to remain stoic to be 'a man'. How terrible. Even little boys are told they can't cry. How barbaric.

In a relationship, part of it is in the selection process of who I choose to be with in a relationship and the other part is making it clear that our relationship is a safe place for them to be vulnerable/emotional. As for the heterosexism, I call them on it every single time.

Will be interested to see what others' responses are.

 

[wicked woman]

They're traits of non-toxic masculinity, aka 'being a decent human man being'.

Here, here!


Edited to comment that I read this as 'decent human being'.

 

[Primalex]

They're traits of non-toxic masculinity, aka 'being a decent human man being'.

I'm pretty sure the traits are required to be a decent human female being, too.

So...is this going to be the wrap up?

"There is no non-toxic masculinity, because either it is masculinity, then it is toxic or it is just decent human behavior."

 

[KimGordon67]

Oh, Kim, I’ve missed you.

 

[KimGordon67]

I'm pretty sure the traits are required to be a decent human female being, too.

So...is this going to be the wrap up?

"There is no non-toxic masculinity, because either it is masculinity, then it is toxic or it is just decent human behavior."

No, it's possible to be masculine and also a decent human being. I'm a big fan of masculine men, and also of decent humans ... if they come wrapped up in the same body, that's a total win.

 

[Primalex]

No, it's possible to be masculine and also a decent human being. I'm a big fan of masculine men, and also of decent humans ... if they come wrapped up in the same body, that's a total win.

Here I am and still waiting for examples of masculine behavior that is not toxic.

 

[KimGordon67]

Here I am and still waiting for examples of masculine behavior that is not toxic.

Yeah, I was expecting that ... I honestly don't know if I can put it into words. I just prefer a burly guy, who can put a bit of strength into his fucking, who can make a decision (but also admit when it was the wrong decision), who can make me feel like I want to submit to them, not because they think they're fucking entitled to it. And who isn't threatened by a woman who can speak her mind. And who smells like a man.

 

[PrettyLilPussy19]

I'm pretty sure the traits are required to be a decent human female being, too.

So...is this going to be the wrap up?

"There is no non-toxic masculinity, because either it is masculinity, then it is toxic or it is just decent human behavior."

Being defensive when the topic is brought up is another example of toxic masculinity. Open conversation and self evaluation is non-toxic. If it.doesnt apply, then no reason to get your panties twisted.

 

[PrettyLilPussy19]

**STRONG LANGUAGE WARNING**

I feel like what you're describing here is a tendency for a certain type of guy to be attracted to (their perception of) d/s because it seems to give them carte blanche to be cunts. But they were cunts before they 'discovered' being dominant.

This is exactly right. And then they try to gaslight subs and make them feel weak or bitchy for expecting more.

 

[KimGordon67]

Here I am and still waiting for examples of masculine behavior that is not toxic.

Just because I'm interested, are you able to define the type of femininity you find appealing (assuming you do find femininity appealing, of course).

 

[Goldenfinger]

Being defensive when the topic is brought up is another example of toxic masculinity. Open conversation and self evaluation is non-toxic. If it.doesnt apply, then no reason to get your panties twisted.

I believe in toxic personality traits but non of them are gender specific.

But if I believed your premise, I’d have to say telling primalex to not get their panties twisted would be toxic masculinity.

 

[Acktion]

They're traits of non-toxic masculinity, aka 'being a decent human man being'.

This, I think, is the hard kernel of the subject. For me at least. And possibly why I have never completely understood just what the Hell we were talking about when "toxic masculinity" became the buzzword back in... erm... the eighties, I think it was?

I mean, I understood it. What I was forced to read of it back then. But, it just baffled me that there might be people who acted the way they were in examples of the character studies, which always seemed over the top caricatures.

I was taught that if you have strength, intelligence, wit, or whatever above and beyond those around you, then you also have some modicum of responsibility to use those attributes to make their lives better where you can. That if you only use your abilities in service of yourself, then at the end of the day that is all you will have. Yourself. Alone. ***shrug*** Mowing the widow woman next door's grass when I mowed ours... helping her carry her groceries in... whatever.

And it just baffles me the idea that someone might look down on someone else for any reason other than they are an asshole. It doesn't really matter to me color, gender, race, religion, country, or whatever else and never has. An asshole is an asshole and those that aren't, I shouldn't be one either. (Yeah, I know I shouldn't be anyway, but I never claimed to be perfect.)

And the idea that a submissive personality somehow makes the person bearing it lesser than those of us cursed with stripes of Dominance... I know it happens. I have enough submissive friends that have complained about it that I know it happens a lot.

But, I think it's gotten more common with the advent of the internet.

As wicked woman said, we really didn't use to see this kind of stuff... for example, poachers, as she mentioned, were given short shrift once they were identified. (And one of the few epithets that can still hurt my feelings.)

However... having said that, I know that I have to watch myself interacting with anyone since... erm... My Dominance isn't a pair of shoes or a hat I put on, but a basic part of my personality that just sort of... oozes out if I don't watch it. Not at anyone particular, or even a particular group, but just moving through day to day the best I can manage is straight neutral in my interactions.

Someone... I think Seela... had a thread about this a while back, couple of years ago maybe? The interactions between platonic friends where one is submissive and the other Dominant and they look up and find themselves having fallen into those patterns.

I really, really couldn't tell you the number of people I'd accidentally fallen into some semblance of a platonic D/s without realizing until in retrospect.

I think the difference, though, is whether one (most likely the D-type, although there are some pushy s-types around) pushes towards the Dynamick without the express consent of the other. And, as Kim mentioned, how they react when it is pointed out to them to "back the fuck up, Chuck."

A-a-a-and, I seem to have meandered all over several tangents and tertiary ideas prompting me to think I should shut the Hell up (or braid my fingers) and let others straighten around what I've fucked up while I go lie down with heating pads on my hands and arms.

I've just understood "don't be toxic" to mean "don't be an asshole (until it's time to be an asshole, of course)."

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

Here I am and still waiting for examples of masculine behavior that is not toxic.

I don't know...listening to what other people have to say? Theres a lot here...I hope there's more to come.

 

[Primalex]

Being defensive when the topic is brought up is another example of toxic masculinity. Open conversation and self evaluation is non-toxic. If it.doesnt apply, then no reason to get your panties twisted.

I'm sure I can dig up plenty of threads here with very "defensive" women that hardly displayed a desire for "open conversation and self evaluation". Do these women then exhibit toxic masculinity or toxic femininity?

I've just asked for examples of non-toxic masculinity and the result was fairly sad, which is hardly my fault.

 

[KimGordon67]

Just in response to the last couple of posts, toxic masculinity is definitely a thing. Yes, basic human decency is something we expect of everyone, regardless of gender etc. But there's is a version of masculinity (overbearing, assuming you're always right, belittling people [especially those who aren't 'properly' masculine], etc) that is generally specific to a sub-group of men. Obviously women can also have those traits, although they do also happen to be often labelled as 'masculine'.

I'm watching Succession at the moment, and Logan is really the archetype of toxic masculinity. It's really difficult to imagine a woman behaving like that. It could happen, obviously, but it seems much less likely.

 

[Primalex]

Just because I'm interested, are you able to define the type of femininity you find appealing (assuming you do find femininity appealing, of course).

I assume you mean traits, not appearance:
Collaborative, vulnerable, empathetic, caring, encouraging, self-sacrificing