Avoiding Toxic Masculinity in BDSM

[KimGordon67]

I assume you mean traits, not appearance:
Collaborative, vulnerable, empathetic, caring, encouraging, self-sacrificing

Almost all of those are traits I would find appealing in a man as well. A masculine man.

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

.

And it just baffles me the idea that someone might look down on someone else for any reason other than they are an asshole. It doesn't really matter to me color, gender, race, religion, country, or whatever else and never has. An asshole is an asshole and those that aren't, I shouldn't be one either. (Yeah, I know I shouldn't be anyway, but I never claimed to be perfect.)

"

I was raised to be a very traditional man in many respects. But I was also raised with that ^^^ as part of my life.

I was also taught to spot an asshole by a particularly strong woman: my grandmother who upon encountering one would laugh and in her lyrical Scootish accent say "Ah, yer mother loves ye"..the implication being "everyone else knows you're an asshole"

Maybe its this gem from my Dad: nobody has to lose for you to win.

 

[Goldenfinger]

Just in response to the last couple of posts, toxic masculinity is definitely a thing. Yes, basic human decency is something we expect of everyone, regardless of gender etc. But there's is a version of masculinity (overbearing, assuming you're always right, belittling people [especially those who aren't 'properly' masculine], etc) that is generally specific to a sub-group of men. Obviously women can also have those traits, although they do also happen to be often labelled as 'masculine'.

I understand what your saying. I know of and have seen the exact stereotypical behavior your talking about. But the way it’s talked talk about puts men on the defensive. It’s like if I came up with toxic feminine bitchiness. And every time I talk about it, it feels like I’m lumping all women together.

Out in the world I don’t see typically see it. In the bdsm world I don’t see it a lot either. Mostly the once a month doms, people who play a stereo typical part.

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

I'm sure I can dig up plenty of threads here with very "defensive" women that hardly displayed a desire for "open conversation and self evaluation". Do these women then exhibit toxic masculinity or toxic femininity?

I've just asked for examples of non-toxic masculinity and the result was fairly sad, which is hardly my fault.

So, who is being defensive? So far, this is still a conversation...the self evaluation will follow naturally.

Toxic femininity? I don't think I've ever seen that...just women tired of dealing with dickheads.

 

[KimGordon67]

I understand what your saying. I know of and have seen the exact stereotypical behavior your talking about. But the way it’s talked talk about puts men on the defensive. It’s like if I came up with toxic feminine bitchiness. And every time I talk about it, it feels like I’m lumping all women together.

Out in the world I don’t see typically see it. In the bdsm world I don’t see it a lot either. Mostly the once a month doms, people who play a stereo typical part.

I think it puts men on the defensive because all they hear is 'masculinity', and miss the 'toxic' (therefore 'not all men' ... ugh) bit. It doesn't men all masculinity is toxic, but rather that there is a toxic version of masculinity that is, by its nature, not *all* masculinity - that's why it has the qualifier.

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

But, we as subs, get bombarded with men like that all the time online.

And those men are

1. Not your Dom

2. Not a Dom at all, but an abuser who thinks he can get away with it in the guise of BDSM.

 

[Primalex]

Almost all of those are traits I would find appealing in a man as well. A masculine man.

But maybe you don't want a "masculine man", maybe you want a "burly feminine man"?

Because the corresponding masculine traits are
Competitive, strong, logical and analytical, independent, ambitious

Which leads me back to the question - are masculine traits toxic by definition of being masculine?

Is a competitive masculine environment toxic, as it is not a feminine collaborative one?

 

[wicked woman]

And those men are

1. Not your Dom

2. Not a Dom at all, but an abuser who thinks he can get away with it in the guise of BDSM.

or

3. Just an asshole.

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

I think it puts men on the defensive because all they hear is 'masculinity', and miss the 'toxic' (therefore 'not all men' ... ugh) bit. It doesn't men all masculinity is toxic, but rather that there is a toxic version of masculinity that is, by its nature, not *all* masculinity - that's why it has the qualifier.

I think a man gets defensive because of guilt. If you know deep inside that whatever the toxicity being discussed is is not you, then its much easier to listen rationally.

 

[KimGordon67]

But maybe you don't want a "masculine man", maybe you want a "burly feminine man"?

Because the corresponding masculine traits are
Competitive, strong, logical and analytical, independent, ambitious

Which leads me back to the question - are masculine traits toxic by definition of being masculine?

Is a competitive masculine environment toxic, as it is not a feminine collaborative one?

I don't really like competitive men. But all the other things you list, I'd find appealing.

I think the point I was really making when I asked you to list the things that you found appealing about femininity is that, mostly, the traits that any of us list as things we like in the opposite sex aren't really particularly masculine or feminine ... what makes someone appealing as 'masculine' for me is really indefinable. It's sort of like a lot of things - like, if you don't like a certain sort of music, or a certain sort of food, it can usually be pretty easy to pinpoint what about you don't like. But often if you *like* a certain music or food, it's harder to say why ... it's just good.

If I really had to wrap it up and put a bow on, I guess I'd say there's a certain 'hardness' to masculinity, and a certain 'softness' to femininity ... but as soon as I say that, all the negative associations that come with those terms rare (rear?) their heads. And it all gets a bit reductive, and a bit vague. But ultimately, maybe that's where it is. It doesn't mean can exhibit softness without it threatening their masculinity, nor that women can't exhibit hardness without it threatening their femininity.

 

[wicked woman]

Personally I'd rather think of toxic or non-toxic traits without a gender descriptive added to it. I think 'male/man' gets added to it though because that's where you see it more often. Not only, just more often.


For example, I've seen more than one Dom, expect anyone who was a sub to call him by his preferred honorific. I've never seen a Domme do that. That said, I've also seen Doms, when addressed with an honorific by someone who wasn't their sub, reply with 'hi, please call me Tom'.

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

But maybe you don't want a "masculine man", maybe you want a "burly feminine man"?

Because the corresponding masculine traits are
Competitive, strong, logical and analytical, independent, ambitious

Which leads me back to the question - are masculine traits toxic by definition of being masculine?

Is a competitive masculine environment toxic, as it is not a feminine collaborative one?

See, "feminine man" sounds like a putdown and maybe even a gay slur (implied).

To paraphrase myself above, it should be enough to "win", you don't need to make someone else lose. Is that too feminine for me to beca man?

 

[Primalex]

Toxic femininity? I don't think I've ever seen that...

Oh, sweet summer child.

- shaming men for being too soft
- calling women out for wearing the same dress twice
- excluding women for being too girly or too manly
- giving advice that they need to act dumb to attract men
- piercing a 3 month old female baby for earrings
- attacking women who don't want children
- attacking women for the SAHM life
...

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

or

3. Just an asshole.

Point

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

Oh, sweet summer child.

- shaming men for being too soft
- calling women out for wearing the same dress twice
- excluding women for being too girly or too manly
- giving advice that they need to act dumb to attract men
- piercing a 3 month old female baby for earrings
- attacking women who don't want children
- attacking women for the SAHM life
...

Hmm, to quote Kim, sounds more like "being a cunt"

Maybe I just don't surround myself with "beautiful people" like that

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

Personally I'd rather think of toxic or non-toxic traits without a gender descriptive added to it. I think 'male/man' gets added to it though because that's where you see it more often. Not only, just more often.


For example, I've seen more than one Dom, expect anyone who was a sub to call him by his preferred honorific. I've never seen a Domme do that. That said, I've also seen Doms, when addressed with an honorific by someone who wasn't their sub, reply with 'hi, please call me Tom'.

Yeah. The second paragraph.

 

[KimGordon67]

See, "feminine man" sounds like a putdown and maybe even a gay slur (implied).

To paraphrase myself above, it should be enough to "win", you don't need to make someone else lose. Is that too feminine for me to beca man?

I think there's a lot more acceptance of feminine men in younger generations, without it (necessarily) being related to sexuality. They're not guys I'm particularly attracted to, but that doesn't mean I think any less of them - I'm just not attracted to them.

 

[Goldenfinger]

I think that the first part is maybe what Goldenfinger was getting at.

Thanks

 

[Primalex]

If I really had to wrap it up and put a bow on, I guess I'd say there's a certain 'hardness' to masculinity, and a certain 'softness' to femininity ... but as soon as I say that, all the negative associations that come with those terms rare (rear?) their heads.

Yes...but maybe that's the actual toxicity.

It's not:"Wow, you are very masculine logical and analytical.", it is:"Wow, you are a male emotional cripple!"

And it all gets a bit reductive, and a bit vague. But ultimately, maybe that's where it is. It doesn't mean can exhibit softness without it threatening their masculinity, nor that women can't exhibit hardness without it threatening their femininity.

But...it does. That's the problem.

In any given situation, you are either perceived as strong or as vulnerable. If you appear as vulnerable in all situations, you will not be perceived as strong anymore. There is no way around it.

And here we finally end up back to the topic:

"emotional insensitivity" or "stoicism" being labeled as "toxic masculinity".

Is it?

 

[Goldenfinger]

Personally I'd rather think of toxic or non-toxic traits without a gender descriptive added to it. I think 'male/man' gets added to it though because that's where you see it more often. Not only, just more often.


For example, I've seen more than one Dom, expect anyone who was a sub to call him by his preferred honorific. I've never seen a Domme do that. That said, I've also seen Doms, when addressed with an honorific by someone who wasn't their sub, reply with 'hi, please call me Tom'.

Yes but no one can mind fuck you like a good Domme. In my viewpoint a dom wants to control your body and actions. A Domme wants your mind and soul, your body and actions just follow.


Oh ya. Toxic traits. Why label a specific gender when we can all improve.

 

[TANSTAAFL58]

Specific to BDSM, how much toxic behavior results from men who think that they can become a Dominant by taking control over a sub (PYL/pyl)?

 

[wicked woman]

Yes but no one can mind fuck you like a good Domme. In my viewpoint a dom wants to control your body and actions. A Domme wants your mind and soul, your body and actions just follow.

I'll have to take your word on what a Domme wants, but I will say the best Dom I ever had, started with my mind, then moved on to all of the rest.

 

[KimGordon67]

I need to go and do some drinking. I look forward to end result of this actually quite interesting discussion.

 

[Goldenfinger]

Specific to BDSM, how much toxic behavior results from men who think that they can become a Dominant by taking control over a sub (PYL/pyl)?

I’d say it’s complicated. In a stereo typical normal relationship I would say all or most of the behavior would be toxic. But we’re not talking about a stereo typical normal relationship.

 

[wicked woman]

Specific to BDSM, how much toxic behavior results from men who think that they can become a Dominant by taking control over a sub (PYL/pyl)?

Yes, or that their definition of what being a Dominant is, is off.