Back surgery

[Svedish_Chef]

I am not quite clear on the location(s?) of your curvature--is it cervical AND lumbar? You have two separate sections?
Or is it simply cervical? Or are you, yourself unclear on this?

(Also, the suggestion about going to a neuro doc--Again, that is for the normal back--this is not an neuro issue--it is bony--if the bones are all fucked up, the nerves are going to be also. It is like saying--"I have a needle in my hand--instead of fixing the pain cause and removing the needle, I will just take some asprin and see if that helps." Then you wait and see that the needle is still there. There aren't many options in correcting that problem and there aren't many options in fixing scoliosis either. ESPECIALLY cervical scoli. BTW--Cervix means "neck" the cervical region of the spine is the neck and the cervical region of the uterus is the neck of that part too. Just FYI for those who are unfamiliar.)

OK the curvature.... its all over the place now..

neck fucked form spear tackle, and the car accident (Whiplash)

bottom of the spine I'm not sure what from and the middle I think was maybe where the curve originally was... heaps of scar tissue around it

 

[BlondGirl]

My advice:
See the ortho docs. If you can do this at a large university teaching institution, that would likely give you better experienced results. Get a 2nd opinion for peace of mind.

Then have the surg.

I bet your height increases and you feel so much better after recovery time

 

[Guest]

Like I said...Chiropractors CAN'T fix the problem.

They are great for muscle related and all , but after 7 months, to be told I could have avoided such drastic surgery, made me angry, since the Chiro kept insisting they could fix it. I was going 4 times a week.

Good luck..having had the major surgery, like I said..I can walk now. I couldn't prior.

There is still, however one spot by my knee that is totally numb..about the size of a dollar coin that never came back, but..hey..I can walk.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

My advice:
See the ortho docs. If you can do this at a large university teaching institution, that would likely give you better experienced results. Get a 2nd opinion for peace of mind.

Then have the surg.

I bet your height increases and you feel so much better after recovery time

Just for the record I live in Australia... but yes I understand.
You do realize I'll go up 2 inches .... and when dad had his surgery (Arthritis etc in the neck) he dropped three inches!

 

[BlondGirl]

Keep in mind that changes from arthritis are very different. The advice from people who have no experience in yoru particular problem is mostly useless. The recovery experiences might be useful to you.
I know nothing about the healthcare system in Austrailia--what types of care are offerred there?
(If it were my own back, knowing what I know--I'd probably to Houston Hermann, UTMB, or maybe Methodist.--It would have to be a teaching hospital for me--those places see the worst of the worst and you know that they have the experience with people more messed up than you can be and that gives you an edge. Here in the US anyway.)

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Various injuries, no illness um had a curved spine since birth and going by the x-rays I saw on friday it looks like a snake...

A spine is supposed to have some curve to it when looking at it from the side. If you look at it from the posterior or anterior then it should be fairly straight. If your spine doesn't have the normal curvature then that can screw things up pretty good.

Basically I dont know and its pretty succesfully fucked.

Well there is fucked and then there is Fucked or even FUCKED. I have seen them all (I used to work in spinal trauma research) and you back may just be plain fucked like most people's. After seven car wrecks and three bike wrecks, my back is Fucked; I can still walk (not for long distances though - no multi-day hikes for me) and I am not popping pain meds every day, but I do have to see a Chiro regularly and I am in some pain constantly.

I'm going to spend 2.4k in the next 6 months trying to see whether it can regenerate or not... otherwise.... well who knows

What did the Chiro say; stage 1, 2, 3 or 4? Most people are one or two, if it is stage two you can most likely prevent it from getting worse, maybe a little better, and if you are lucky it might get a lot better. If stage 1 then it will probably get a lot better.

Ummm.. $2400 over 6 months for Chiro therapy? That sounds like two or more visits a week for every week of the month, which sounds like it might be too much for that period of time. Usually there is a period of intensive treatment at first where the doctor sees you something like twice or thrice a week, but that should taper off after the first few weeks or the first month. After that it may go to once a week for a month, then once every other week, then once a month. If you can get down to once a quarter or twice a year then you should be fine - I am so bad I usually need at least once a month at best. But twice a week for six months is not good - that is over-utilization in my opinion. You might want to get a second opinion.

Does the Chiro have some means of objectively showing your improvement over that period of time? Objective Iso muscle testing (with a measuring device, not just his/her hands)? XRay angle measurements? Range of Motion (ROM)?

For that kind of money and intensive treatment I would demand some kind of objective proof, and I wouldn't settle for EMGs or Thermographs either. Muscle testing and ROM are two of the simplest and most objective measurements that can be used.

Surgery is the last resort, and while there have been improvements in this regard, it is far from a magic bullet and most people I know that have had it are no better off than before, and many are worse. YMMV.

STG

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Just for the record I live in Australia!

Oh! Well that is different! I was going by what US doctors charge, which is usually about $40 per visit. Still, that sounds like a lot of visits to me.

STG

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Like I said...Chiropractors CAN'T fix the problem.

They are great for muscle related and all , but after 7 months, to be told I could have avoided such drastic surgery, made me angry, since the Chiro kept insisting they could fix it. I was going 4 times a week.

It depends on the problem - Never say never. Everybody's back problem is different and I do not advocate surgery unless nothing else works. If one Chiro couldn't fix it then I would go to a better one, but surgery would be my last resort.

And BTW, most Chiros do more than work on muscle related issues; they work directly on the spine - if they know what the hell they are doing. They are like any other doctors; some are good, some are not so good and some are downright bad. I've seen them all (I used to work with them, and Orthos, and a lot of other people involved in Spinal Trauma). One good way to tell a bad Chiro; if he/she wants to work on your back without seeing an Xray first. If they continually want to see multiple times a week with little or no improvement, and this lasts much longer than a month, then they are not getting it done - unless you are a very serious and hard case to treat (severe trauma like the ships captain I saw who took a header off a mast and fell 60 feet to the deck, had his neck fused - he had to see a specialist for his neck, but they got some improvement).

Really good Chiros usually have some kind of of objective measurement to gauge your improvement - something like muscle strength (in pounds or Kgs) and range of motion measurements (in degrees). If they won't do that, or worse, don't know how, get a second opinion.

STG

 

[bluntforcemama]

Chef... This type of problem seems to be common among people who did gymnastics (as you did) for years, and I know that you had another thing... like Judo or something that you trained in. My guess is that it is indeed a degenerative process due to overworking certain areas of your back. Slipping a disk is painful, but losing one sucks! I think you should NOT go to a chiropractor, I think they're quacks, and I've never heard of a single success story from anyone who saw them. I would talk to an orthopedic surgeon and/or a physical therapist who could tell you how any of his/her patients have dealt with similar situations.


This probably won't help you any, but my father has a vertabrae that is slowly eroding and pinching a nerve, and it quite painful, and short of sugery, his physical therapist had to massage the muscle through his stomach (she couldn't get to it any other way), and told him to keep those muscles strong and stretched out. Other than that, he takes about 12 IBuprofen a day.

I hope all goes well, hon, and hopefully I can be in the area if you do decide that surgery is your best option.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

I would never ever under any circumstances deal with chiropractic care if I had scoliosis. chiro is for the NORMAL person. You do not have the normal spine and you need intervention.

Umm.. I have seen scoliosis respond to Chiro care - I know of a recent moderately serious case of a local child that was treated by my personal Chiro; I have seen the before and after XRays.

It would of course depend on the severity and the doctor, but Chiros are not just for "normal" people's spines, whomever they are. A good Chiro will not say they can fix anything, just like any other doctor - not everything is a case for the knife or the pill.

STG

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

I think you should NOT go to a chiropractor, I think they're quacks, and I've never heard of a single success story from anyone who saw them.

Having worked with many Chiros and having seen the successes along with objective evidence of improvement, I would have to disagree.

I for one am a success story; while some facets (get it? facet? okay - bad pun) of my back problem are worse now due to age, it is not near as acute as it once was, and I have a lot more range of motion, especially with regards to the cervical region which I could barely rotate before treatment. I use to have 10-20 deg. right and left with a lot of pain (made change lanes an adventure), and now I easily have three times that with no pain.

STG

 

[Svedish_Chef]

STG... believe me.... I SAW the X-rays... I know how my backs supposed to be and it aint that.

I believe we are talking 3rd level...

Permanant migraines pinched nerves etc...

Got off the phone to my dad after finally asking him about his... he took surgery as a LAST option... either that or the wheelchair for the same thing... he uses chiro as a delaying tactic so he hopefully doens't have to have surgery again.

I thought I was scared of one thing... looks like its two... my back getting worse and love.

the schedule would be 3x a week for 3 months 2x a week for 3 months then once a week to hopefully manage it and finish the year out.

I really dont know what I am going to do now

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

STG... believe me.... I SAW the X-rays... I know how my backs supposed to be and it aint that.

Okay, so I assume you have some form of Scoliotic curve like problem. I mentioned that we are supposed to have some amount of forward/rearward curve because my cervical region is lacking in that respect. My C5 joint is very hypermobile (I can move it easily side to side with just some easy finger pressure) while C4 and C6 on either side are hypomobile. This causes most of my neck problems.

I believe we are talking 3rd level...

Permanant migraines pinched nerves etc...

Then that is pretty severe. I am not a doctor, but it is my understanding that you probably don't stand much chance of regeneration, just an alleviation of symptoms. If Chiro therapy does help you (and proper Chiro therapy should be able to) then you may become somewhat asymptomatic at best, but I doubt your spine will ever get much better, just the progression could be halted.

Got off the phone to my dad after finally asking him about his... he took surgery as a LAST option... either that or the wheelchair for the same thing... he uses chiro as a delaying tactic so he hopefully doens't have to have surgery again.

There are times when I would have surgery if I thought it would do any good, and maybe someday I will be that desparate, but not yet - and only if it had a chance of doing any good. I looked into disc replacement surgery - they are doing some very interesting things now both with artifical discs and discs from donors (people dying or dead), but I am not that far gone yet.

the schedule would be 3x a week for 3 months 2x a week for 3 months then once a week to hopefully manage it and finish the year out.

Still sounds like a lot of treatments. I still say that there should be some form of outcome assessment going on at the same time to gauge how you are actually improving, if at all. Also, if you don't see some improvement after the first month, and the Chiro is trying something different, then I would think he is just milking you for money - I have seen it before, especially when insurance is involved.

I really dont know what I am going to do now

I would go ahead and get Chiro treatments for now, but I would think about seeing a different Chiro.

STG

 

[sexy-girl]

owww im sorry i wish you luck that you will be better soon

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Okay, so I assume you have some form of Scoliotic curve like problem. I mentioned that we are supposed to have some amount of forward/rearward curve because my cervical region is lacking in that respect.

Then that is pretty severe. I am not a doctor, but it is my understanding that you probably don't stand much chance of regeneration, just an alleviation of symptoms. If Chiro therapy does help you (and proper Chiro therapy should be able to) then you may become somewhat asymptomatic at best, but I doubt your spine will ever get much better, just the progression could be halted.

There are times when I would have surgery if I thought it would do any good, and maybe someday I will be that desparate, but not yet - and only if it had a chance of doing any good. I looked into disc replacement surgery - they are doing some very interesting things now both with artifical discs and discs from donors (people dying or dead), but I am not that far gone yet.

Still sounds like a lot of treatments. I still say that there should be some form of outcome assessment going on at the same time to gauge how you are actually improving, if at all. Also, if you don't see some improvement after the first month, and the Chiro is trying something different, then I would think he is just milking you for money - I have seen it before, especially when insurance is involved.

I would go ahead and get Chiro treatments for now, but I would think about seeing a different Chiro.

Yup.... there are supposed to be x-rays taken to guage the improvement at each months juncture... but the thought of this guy screwing off with my money does make m ethink yeah.

owww im sorry i wish you luck that you will be better soon

Theres no such thing as better with this

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Yup.... there are supposed to be x-rays taken to guage the improvement at each months juncture... but the thought of this guy screwing off with my money does make m ethink yeah.




Theres no such thing as better with this

On second thought, since your condition is advanced/severe, I might be a little hard on the Chiro, but I think keeping up that many treatments a week for that long is a bit much.

XRays are barely minimal for outcomes assessments if the Chiro is doing more than just looking at them and saying "yeah, looks to me like you are improving". If the Chiro is measuring the various curves, angles, relationships and spaces then that is better. But the lay person usually doesn't understand all of the measurements, making such measurements still fairly subjective in your eyes because you don't typically understand them. Yeah a scoliotic curve is often very apparent on an XRay, but that is not the only thing it shows.

I prefer metrics that the patient can understand; quantitative isometric muscle strength tests (not Kendall & Kendall) and Range of Motion measurements. It doesn't have to be anything fancy, just objective and quantitative.

For the kind of money and time you are going to be putting into this, I would ask for those kind of metrics. If your Chiro doesn't have the equipment (a strain guage muscle tester and protractor) or the knowledge then go to another Chiro.

STG

 

[Svedish_Chef]

On second thought, since your condition is advanced/severe, I might be a little hard on the Chiro, but I think keeping up that many treatments a week for that long is a bit much.

XRays are barely minimal for outcomes assessments if the Chiro is doing more than just looking at them and saying "yeah, looks to me like you are improving". If the Chiro is measuring the various curves, angles, relationships and spaces then that is better. But the lay person usually doesn't understand all of the measurements, making such measurements still fairly subjective in your eyes because you don't typically understand them. Yeah a scoliotic curve is often very apparent on an XRay, but that is not the only thing it shows.

he does the curve thing and whatever...

I understand the theory behind it so to speak but as to the rest...

I'll work it out somehow

 

[Guest]

So sorry to read about your back.My serious back problems (spinal arthritis) began at 27, herniated 2 cervical disks at 37, and I wound up having 7 cervical laminectomies done at age 43 because all 7 vertabrea were digging into my cord, which was curved around the vertabrea like a snake. Couldn't hold up my head, pain and weakness and numbness down the arm.

I had done PT and had manipulations and took drugs and everything else I could do to avoid the neck surgery. Finally reached a point where it was the only thing I could do to avoid permanent crippling - or death from a severed spinal cord. I followed many of the steps that BlondGirl suggested, had the surgery, and have been about 95% symptom free for going on 5 years. I know a guy who waitet too long, had the same surgery as me, and seems to have permanent damage.

I know that everyone means well with their advice, but there seems to be no rational alternative to surgery for you. Are the definite consequences of waiting worse than the risks of surgery? Only you can make this decision. You can reduce your surgical risks by taking the steps that BlondGirl recommends. I am a licensed healthcare professional and have worked as a hospital quality Improvement administrator and patient advocate.

Chef, I wish you the very best, no matter what way you decide to go.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

I'm doing a 50-50 at the moment

Intense chiro

AND

Waiting to go see a rhuematologist on the 24 (I think) of October.

 

[*Lazer*]

I am so glad you are seeing someone who can give you some answers and help you with the pain.

 

[Shy Tall Guy]

Chef,

One thing I just remembered that you might try that gives me some relief from time to time; an inversion bed/table/chair. this is the one I have:

http://www.teeterhangups.com/

I have the table, but if you are able the boots are much less expensive - just much harder to get into and out of an upside down position.

They also had chairs last time I was in a Relax the Back store - a chair would be needed for someone who had leg/foot problems that would preclude them from hanging by their legs/feet.

I have found it is best for my lower back problems and not so good for neck problems; I assume that is because it stretches the lower back more than the neck bcause you have more body weight pulling on the lower portions of the body than on the upper.

It does pull pretty hard on your feet and ankles and wearing some kind of footwear is really necessary for most people. They offer the boots as an add on, but I wear my off-road motorcycle boots (big MX racing boots that look like ski boots) which are probably about as comfortable as their boots I would guess.

These tables help take the edge off the pain, and they may not help you, but if sometime your lower back is bothering you, you might want to find a store that has one and try it out to see if it helps. They are a bit expensive; about $4-500 US.

Another less expensive thing that I have that helps is the cervical pillow.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

OK, update.

Todays effort of going to see this specialist type dude (Rheumatologist) told me this.

I'm going to this (Reabilitation Hospital) and going to exercizes and stuff and see a physio and other things to try and work all this stuff out better. Twice a week for six weeks and then start again from there. He wants to get a more complete picture from his side including how it responds to all different sorts of treatment.

I'm not sure what I think of it either way... I'm still hurting... so long as they work out a way to fix that I'll be happy.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Ok so I see a Psychologist for fucks sake today!

And next week I see her, and then the occupational therapist and physiotherapist...

And then maybe the week after I actuall start getting treated properly.

 

[Beaker]

I mean I knew it was fucked but not that fucked I thought.. maybe a wheelchair before I'm 30?

You are a muppet, you have no spine.

 

[Svedish_Chef]

Saw the psychologist again today, then the physio and occupational therapist.

Now I am booked in for treatment my list goes like this.

1:30 Physio (1hr)
2:30 Occ therapy (1hr)
3:30 hydrotherapy (1hr)

on Mondays and Wednesdays.

If nothing else I seem to be on a program and in the system at least. It takes me an hour and a half to get there on Bus, then train, then tram.... and an hour and a half back... Sometimes you really dream of a car.

Nothing of us to report really today escept the psycho did give me a manual titled.....

Sex and Back Pain

So if I ever do get laid again... I'll have to read up on this thing and give it to whoever the unlucky soul will be.

If I see anything really funny in it I'll try and scan a page or something for everyone to laugh at.

Therapy starts on monday... so if noone hears from me by monday US time I'm dead on my back screaming to never do it again.