Brexit?

[renard_ruse]

I pointed out in this thread on Friday that her death would dent the 'leave' campaign, and all the signs are that it has, and seriously. Hell, even UKIP has joined the Tories and LibDems in declaring it won't contest the by-election to replace her, and the 'leave' racists have toned down their 'little Englander' xenophobia. A veritable sea-change.

All the evidence suggests that the man accused has serious mental health problems. No surprise. Racists are either mentally ill, or pigshit ignorant.

What are "racists"? Is it not "racist" for the native population to become a minority in their own ancestral homeland? Or is it ok because the natives are white and the mere existence of whites is "racist"? And how is that fair or just?

And is so-called "xenophobia" worse than oikophobia?

As for the incident, of course it was likely to dent the leave campaign. That's why the globalists did it.

 

[Jessie_Pinkman]

John Oliver: Brexit

 

[underguy1]

John Oliver: Brexit

An appalling propaganda piece by Oliver that.

Disappointing.

 

[Jessie_Pinkman]

An appalling propaganda piece by Oliver that.

Disappointing.

Care to be a bit more specific?

 

[DeYaKen]

They do not have a worldwide network with access to the most influential media to distribute their hate. At least today, they represent the fringe; they are not normative in any society. Finally, and again, this may only be true today, they do not represent a threat to civilization and all that I value in this world.

But hey, otherwise they are just the same!

Oh, so you don't think that Rupert Murdoch and his media empire is sufficient a vehicle to spread right wing hate. How about the other empire owned by Lord Rothermere, whose family openly supported a certain Austrian gentleman during the last world war. I rather think that gentleman and his brigade of terrorist did a lot to destroy civilisation, but maybe that is what you value in the world.

So yes they are just the same.

 

[Scotsman69]

It can indeed be racist for a native population to become a minority in their own ancestral homeland. As natives of the Americas, New Zealand and Australia became and mostly remain persecuted minorities after their ancestral homelands were invaded by European colonisers with superior weaponry a few short centuries ago.

What is 'oikophobia', and who precisely are the 'globalists' who assassinated Jo Cox? All that we know suggests her murderer was a mentally ill far-right racist who had been nourished by racists in the USA and UK.

What are "racists"? Is it not "racist" for the native population to become a minority in their own ancestral homeland? Or is it ok because the natives are white and the mere existence of whites is "racist"? And how is that fair or just?

And is so-called "xenophobia" worse than oikophobia?

As for the incident, of course it was likely to dent the leave campaign. That's why the globalists did it.

 

[Scotsman69]

Here are some profound and sobering thoughts on events surrounding the murder of Jo Cox MP.

http://www.scottishreview.net/index.html

They are worth a read, for those who bother to read in order to learn.

 

[DeYaKen]

Being sovereign with your own currency is far more than about 'devaluation'. It means that you have control over fiscal policy and have the ability to use it countercyclically over the business cycle and you don't have to borrow money to do so.

The problems for the periphery are a direct result of the flawed structure of the euro. Any country running a trade deficit that cannot create its own currency will go broke. Especially if your main trade creditor runs a mercantilist trade policy like Germany does.

Austerity is being imposed because neoliberal dogma doesn't allow for central bank direct funding of government. There is no good practical reason for it.

But neoliberals/neoclassicals don't understand money and banking. Nor do the general public.

There is little to nothing in The Spirit Level that is relevant that I can see. You'd have to explain further.

As for a downturn in tourism being the cause of the crisis, you're barking mad.

Strange how people resort to personal abuse when they feel they are losing control of an argument.

I did not say that the downturn in tourism was the cause of the problem I said that the strength of the Euro made a large sector of the economy of those countries collapse. If the currency had been based on the performance of the country its value would have fallen and the tourist trade would have been maintained. This, in turn, would have kept construction going which keeps materials going and insurance etc.

You have to remember that until 1974/5 two of the headline countries were dictatorships. To expect the EU to reverse their decline in 30 years of membership is expecting a lot.


What is relevant in The Spirit Level? The countries that apply the idea of greater equality, the ones you would like to pretend are not in the EU, have fared very well and were only slightly affected by the economic collapse. The headline countries Spain, Portugal,Greece all had unequal societies and suffered far more. Of course, it was the poor who were made to bear the brunt of the problems making the equality even worse and prompting demonstrations.

I have not tried, nor will I, to defend the Euro. That is just a red herring you have used to deflect away from the original argument.

You said that the economy of the EU was failing due to its Neoliberal policies.
I have given you examples of how it is not Neoliberal (using your own definition) and also that the ecomomy of the EU as a whole, is not failing.

 

[DeYaKen]

Ha, well done! I thought from your stories that you must be an OK guy.

Thank you for that, I'm flattered that you've read them.

 

[Scotsman69]

For information: How Brexit could start the breakup of the disunited kingdom... which has of course for over sixty years been a queendom:

http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...-would-brexit-mean/ar-AAhj0AF?ocid=spartandhp

 

[JackLuis]

Another musical viewpoint.

 

[underguy1]

Strange how people resort to personal abuse when they feel they are losing control of an argument.

I did not say that the downturn in tourism was the cause of the problem I said that the strength of the Euro made a large sector of the economy of those countries collapse. If the currency had been based on the performance of the country its value would have fallen and the tourist trade would have been maintained. This, in turn, would have kept construction going which keeps materials going and insurance etc.

You have to remember that until 1974/5 two of the headline countries were dictatorships. To expect the EU to reverse their decline in 30 years of membership is expecting a lot.


What is relevant in The Spirit Level? The countries that apply the idea of greater equality, the ones you would like to pretend are not in the EU, have fared very well and were only slightly affected by the economic collapse. The headline countries Spain, Portugal,Greece all had unequal societies and suffered far more. Of course, it was the poor who were made to bear the brunt of the problems making the equality even worse and prompting demonstrations.

I have not tried, nor will I, to defend the Euro. That is just a red herring you have used to deflect away from the original argument.

You said that the economy of the EU was failing due to its Neoliberal policies.
I have given you examples of how it is not Neoliberal (using your own definition) and also that the ecomomy of the EU as a whole, is not failing.

Personal abuse? Are you serious?

"I have given you examples of how it is not Neoliberal".

Have you? Where?

I don't believe you know what neoliberalism is and have no macroeconomic basis from which to understand the distinction.

"and also that the ecomomy of the EU as a whole, is not failing."

The EU economy IS failing. It has barely climbed back to 2007 levels.There are 27 million people unemployed and tens more millions underemployed.

Blaming Franco and the Greek colonels for today's EU failings is absurd.

Anyone who thinks that the EU is not a neoliberal mad house has no clue. The whole basis of the convergence mechanisms Maastricht, the SGP, the Six-pack and the 2-pack are pure neoliberal dogma.

 

[DeYaKen]

Personal abuse? Are you serious?

"I have given you examples of how it is not Neoliberal".

Have you? Where?

I don't believe you know what neoliberalism is and have no macroeconomic basis from which to understand the distinction.

"and also that the ecomomy of the EU as a whole, is not failing."

The EU economy IS failing. It has barely climbed back to 2007 levels.There are 27 million people unemployed and tens more millions underemployed.

Blaming Franco and the Greek colonels for today's EU failings is absurd.

Anyone who thinks that the EU is not a neoliberal mad house has no clue. The whole basis of the convergence mechanisms Maastricht, the SGP, the Six-pack and the 2-pack are pure neoliberal dogma.

I would say that calling someone "Barking Mad" constitutes personal; abuse.

I used what you told me Neo liberalism was.

The reality is that it's about privatising public services and extracting rent.

What you describe here is what has been happening in Britain since May 1979 it is not what has been happening in the EU as a whole. If it were then France, Germany, Belgium and Germany would not still have state-owned railways, they still do. France's biggest Energy provider is State controlled as is Germany's the German, Dutch and French Mail system still have no competition for the state owned provider. The Netherlands is not the only state that still has a state-owned telecom monopoly.

I'm afraid if you want to change your definition of Neoliberalism, you are going to have to tell me which one you are using now before we can continue a discussion.

I must admit I'd forgotten about the Colonels in Greece. That makes three out of the four headline countries that are recovering from the effects of a dictatorship. Spain Greece and Portugal and you think that is coincidence? Their economies were crumbling when they joined in 1986 so it's hardly surprising that they were not in the best position to weather the storm in 2008.

As for the failing economy, in the last six months the EU economy has grown more than the USA.

 

[underguy1]

I would say that calling someone "Barking Mad" constitutes personal; abuse.

I used what you told me Neo liberalism was.

What you describe here is what has been happening in Britain since May 1979 it is not what has been happening in the EU as a whole. If it were then France, Germany, Belgium and Germany would not still have state-owned railways, they still do. France's biggest Energy provider is State controlled as is Germany's the German, Dutch and French Mail system still have no competition for the state owned provider. The Netherlands is not the only state that still has a state-owned telecom monopoly.

I'm afraid if you want to change your definition of Neoliberalism, you are going to have to tell me which one you are using now before we can continue a discussion.

I must admit I'd forgotten about the Colonels in Greece. That makes three out of the four headline countries that are recovering from the effects of a dictatorship. Spain Greece and Portugal and you think that is coincidence? Their economies were crumbling when they joined in 1986 so it's hardly surprising that they were not in the best position to weather the storm in 2008.

As for the failing economy, in the last six months the EU economy has grown more than the USA.

Then you're way too precious to be out conversing in public. That's utterly pathetic.

With all due respect, you need to learn a lot more about economics and neoliberalism. And drop the binary thinking.

Of course privatisation is happening in the EU. It is a tenet of the body. It's in their DNA.

BTW The USA is heading into recession. Way too little government spending.

It doesn't mean the EU is doing well.

Yep, neoliberal dogma strikes again.

Look it up.

The Spirit Level is excellent work and very valuable scholarly confirmation of that which all heterodox economists know. But it's only a small aspect of a much much broader subject.

Credit to you for reading it (if you did) but don't overplay it. It doesn't work that way.

 

[underguy1]

If it were then France, Germany, Belgium and Germany would not still have state-owned railways, they still do. France's biggest Energy provider is State controlled as is Germany's the German, Dutch and French Mail system still have no competition for the state owned provider. The Netherlands is not the only state that still has a state-owned telecom monopoly.

Yes, I've heard people say the Pinochet's Chile wasn't the Chicago School's first neoliberal experiment purely because he didn't sell the government copper monopoly off.

It's entirely irrational but people say it anyway. I tend not to bother with those people.

 

[DeYaKen]

Then you're way too precious to be out conversing in public. That's utterly pathetic.

With all due respect, you need to learn a lot more about economics and neoliberalism. And drop the binary thinking.

Of course privatisation is happening in the EU. It is a tenet of the body. It's in their DNA.

BTW The USA is heading into recession. Way too little government spending.

It doesn't mean the EU is doing well.

Yep, neoliberal dogma strikes again.

Look it up.

The Spirit Level is excellent work and very valuable scholarly confirmation of that which all heterodox economists know. But it's only a small aspect of a much much broader subject.

Credit to you for reading it (if you did) but don't overplay it. It doesn't work that way.

I didn't say I was offended by your name calling I was just sad that you reverted to it so soon.

As for neoliberalism, I was just using the example you gave. You defined what you meant by neoliberalism, I used that.

Privatisation in the DNA of the French and the Germans? I think not. They have a long history of socialism as do the Dutch, Swedes, Danes and Fins. Italy is almost fascist, their communist party was always slightly to the right of Margaret Thatcher.
Britain and the USA have managed to convince many of the ex-communist countries that selling off the family silver is the way to go and they have sided with Britain to propose privatisation. However, before anything like that can be passed it needs the approval of the European parliament, where the more socialism inclined countries have a majority. The end result is a fudge, like the one concerning the mail system. Effectively this means that member states can set their own timetable as long as they are thinking about it.

I am currently re-reading The spirit level prompted by the referendum. The reason I brought it up is that, with the exception of Spain, Portugal, and the UK , the countries in the EU are shown as the most equal. The ex-communist countries were not included because there was insufficient data.

In the last 35 years, it has been European law that has curbed the worst excesses of the neoliberals in the UK, which was one reason why Margaret Thatcher hated it so much. It is still the only thing which stops the total decimation of workers rights favoured by our current government.

You were advising that Britain should leave the EU because it was Neoliberal. Well by your own definition we are already a lot worse than they are. Our current government doesn't have much left to sell so they are trying to privatise branches of government. The population won't let them sell off health care, well not wholesale, so they are doing it piecemeal.

I thank you for this discussion, I was on the verge of voting to withdraw because of the democracy issues. Dealing with your arguments has made me appreciate what we currently have.

 

[underguy1]

I didn't say I was offended by your name calling I was just sad that you reverted to it so soon.

As for neoliberalism, I was just using the example you gave. You defined what you meant by neoliberalism, I used that.

Privatisation in the DNA of the French and the Germans? I think not. They have a long history of socialism as do the Dutch, Swedes, Danes and Fins. Italy is almost fascist, their communist party was always slightly to the right of Margaret Thatcher.
Britain and the USA have managed to convince many of the ex-communist countries that selling off the family silver is the way to go and they have sided with Britain to propose privatisation. However, before anything like that can be passed it needs the approval of the European parliament, where the more socialism inclined countries have a majority. The end result is a fudge, like the one concerning the mail system. Effectively this means that member states can set their own timetable as long as they are thinking about it.

I am currently re-reading The spirit level prompted by the referendum. The reason I brought it up is that, with the exception of Spain, Portugal, and the UK , the countries in the EU are shown as the most equal. The ex-communist countries were not included because there was insufficient data.

In the last 35 years, it has been European law that has curbed the worst excesses of the neoliberals in the UK, which was one reason why Margaret Thatcher hated it so much. It is still the only thing which stops the total decimation of workers rights favoured by our current government.

You were advising that Britain should leave the EU because it was Neoliberal. Well by your own definition we are already a lot worse than they are. Our current government doesn't have much left to sell so they are trying to privatise branches of government. The population won't let them sell off health care, well not wholesale, so they are doing it piecemeal.

I thank you for this discussion, I was on the verge of voting to withdraw because of the democracy issues. Dealing with your arguments has made me appreciate what we currently have.

The EU is a neoliberal corporate behemoth. Your view of it is directly lifted from the press and has nought to do with the reality. The press are big corporations who benefit from corporatist rule.

You're confusing popular sentiment in Europe with the ambitions of the ruling class.

Yes the UK has bee run by neoliberally inclined governments since before Thatcher. But you can still vote them out.

You can't vote out the EU.

As for workers' rights, go talk to the Greeks and the Portuguese about how the Troika 'protected' their rights. That's just a sick joke.

 

[DeYaKen]

The EU is a neoliberal corporate behemoth. Your view of it is directly lifted from the press and has nought to do with the reality. The press are big corporations who benefit from corporatist rule.

You're confusing popular sentiment in Europe with the ambitions of the ruling class.

Yes the UK has bee run by neoliberally inclined governments since before Thatcher. But you can still vote them out.

You can't vote out the EU.

As for workers' rights, go talk to the Greeks and the Portuguese about how the Troika 'protected' their rights. That's just a sick joke.

No, my views come from living in the EU and before that the EC and the EEC since 1973.

I can vote out my representative in the European Parliament. I can't vote out the commission but then again, I can't vote out the civil servants who run our country or Members of the House of Lords. The difference comes in the resolution of conflict. In the UK the elected house of commons takes precedence. If the Lords block a bill the government can invoke the parliament act and push it through. If the European Parliament refuses to approve a bill they go into tripartite talks with two unelected bodies, the commission and the council of ministers, to find a compromise.

There are rights for workers that are enshrined in EU law. An employer must treat part-time staff the same as full-time staff. The same paid holiday entitlement, the same notice periods etc. Temporary staff also enjoy the same conditions as permanent workers. EU law meant that construction workers could no longer be treated as a special case and employers were forced to give a minimum period of paid holiday. Members of our current government have openly expressed the desire to sweep away those rights and many more. However, they can't do that because EU law takes precedence.

When you say we can vote them out that's true but not for another four years. They can do a lot of damage in four years. So far, the EU has provided us with a buffer. I can still remember the times that Leon Brittan had his plans thwarted because they were ruled as "unlawful" by the European court.

True they don't give anyone the right to a job, but even the communists never did that.

If we were being offered a general election after the referendum I would be more likely to vote to leave. The current government was elected by an electorate who knew that their actions were restricted by EU law. If we take that restriction away, it is a whole new ball game and we should be allowed to vote in the people we trust most with the new freedom. We are not being offered that. We vote to leave and the people who want to sweep away workers rights would be free to do so.

Having seen the street demonstrations in Paris and Berlin, demanding an end to TTIP negotiations, I have more faith in my continental brother's ability to stand up for the working man than I do in the British. The French have already said they will veto TTIP. The British government supports it.

 

[Hard_Rom]

A place like Greece would be better off out. With it's own currency. Which would trade far below the Euro and help attract foreign investors looking for cheap labour and property. Also bring in foreign tourists or even residents to spend Euros there.

Here in Canada we MUST have a lower dollar than the US or foreign investment and manufacturing industry goes there. A 25% increase in our dollar makes tourist rips 25% more expensive than last time they crossed border. Our dollar at par from high oil prices killed manufacturing here and then we had nothing to cushion the inevitable fall in oil and commodity prices.

 

[underguy1]

No, my views come from living in the EU and before that the EC and the EEC since 1973.

I can vote out my representative in the European Parliament. I can't vote out the commission but then again, I can't vote out the civil servants who run our country or Members of the House of Lords. The difference comes in the resolution of conflict. In the UK the elected house of commons takes precedence. If the Lords block a bill the government can invoke the parliament act and push it through. If the European Parliament refuses to approve a bill they go into tripartite talks with two unelected bodies, the commission and the council of ministers, to find a compromise.

There are rights for workers that are enshrined in EU law. An employer must treat part-time staff the same as full-time staff. The same paid holiday entitlement, the same notice periods etc. Temporary staff also enjoy the same conditions as permanent workers. EU law meant that construction workers could no longer be treated as a special case and employers were forced to give a minimum period of paid holiday. Members of our current government have openly expressed the desire to sweep away those rights and many more. However, they can't do that because EU law takes precedence.

When you say we can vote them out that's true but not for another four years. They can do a lot of damage in four years. So far, the EU has provided us with a buffer. I can still remember the times that Leon Brittan had his plans thwarted because they were ruled as "unlawful" by the European court.

True they don't give anyone the right to a job, but even the communists never did that.

If we were being offered a general election after the referendum I would be more likely to vote to leave. The current government was elected by an electorate who knew that their actions were restricted by EU law. If we take that restriction away, it is a whole new ball game and we should be allowed to vote in the people we trust most with the new freedom. We are not being offered that. We vote to leave and the people who want to sweep away workers rights would be free to do so.

Having seen the street demonstrations in Paris and Berlin, demanding an end to TTIP negotiations, I have more faith in my continental brother's ability to stand up for the working man than I do in the British. The French have already said they will veto TTIP. The British government supports it.

You don't know what you're talking about.

The EU is a big corporate project designed purely for the benefit of the very rich.

Your worker solidarity theory works better without the overbearing EU and if you think that spineless jellyfish Hollande won't capitulate to Washington, then I've got a bridge to sell you.

And speaking of the French, how are their labour rights going right now?

Oh that's right. Backwards.

It's beyond my ken how grown adults can fall for such demonstrable clap trap.

The rich fuckers running and raping this world must laugh themselves to sleep at night.

 

[underguy1]

A place like Greece would be better off out. With it's own currency. Which would trade far below the Euro and help attract foreign investors looking for cheap labour and property. Also bring in foreign tourists or even residents to spend Euros there.

Here in Canada we MUST have a lower dollar than the US or foreign investment and manufacturing industry goes there. A 25% increase in our dollar makes tourist rips 25% more expensive than last time they crossed border. Our dollar at par from high oil prices killed manufacturing here and then we had nothing to cushion the inevitable fall in oil and commodity prices.

Developed economies with their own currency don't need foreign investment.

 

[underguy1]

.

True they don't give anyone the right to a job, but even the communists never did that.

.

They did in fact. And not just communists. All the developed western economies practised full employment policy until the neoliberals gained the upper hand in the mid to late 1970s.

Now we have deliberate unemployment policy which they pretend is designed to 'fight inflation'. But the real game is to keep wages low and the profit share of national income rising while the wage share declines.

The right to work is part of the UN convention on Human Rights in fact. So all our governments are in breach of their duties.

 

[Friendlymann]

No, my views come from living in the EU and before that the EC and the EEC since 1973.

I can vote out my representative in the European Parliament. I can't vote out the commission but then again, I can't vote out the civil servants who run our country or Members of the House of Lords. The difference comes in the resolution of conflict. In the UK the elected house of commons takes precedence. If the Lords block a bill the government can invoke the parliament act and push it through. If the European Parliament refuses to approve a bill they go into tripartite talks with two unelected bodies, the commission and the council of ministers, to find a compromise.

There are rights for workers that are enshrined in EU law. An employer must treat part-time staff the same as full-time staff. The same paid holiday entitlement, the same notice periods etc. Temporary staff also enjoy the same conditions as permanent workers. EU law meant that construction workers could no longer be treated as a special case and employers were forced to give a minimum period of paid holiday. Members of our current government have openly expressed the desire to sweep away those rights and many more. However, they can't do that because EU law takes precedence.

When you say we can vote them out that's true but not for another four years. They can do a lot of damage in four years. So far, the EU has provided us with a buffer. I can still remember the times that Leon Brittan had his plans thwarted because they were ruled as "unlawful" by the European court.

True they don't give anyone the right to a job, but even the communists never did that.

If we were being offered a general election after the referendum I would be more likely to vote to leave. The current government was elected by an electorate who knew that their actions were restricted by EU law. If we take that restriction away, it is a whole new ball game and we should be allowed to vote in the people we trust most with the new freedom. We are not being offered that. We vote to leave and the people who want to sweep away workers rights would be free to do so.

Having seen the street demonstrations in Paris and Berlin, demanding an end to TTIP negotiations, I have more faith in my continental brother's ability to stand up for the working man than I do in the British. The French have already said they will veto TTIP. The British government supports it.

I've just read back through your posts on this topic, not only do you handle ripostes with great diplomacy, but the quality of your arguments, and the way you out them, is something that has been sadly lacking from the mainstream proponents on both sides here.
There has been accurate, balanced information available, but one had to dig for it, not rely on the campaigns. The Governor of The Bank of England for example, or the Institute of Fiscal Studies. Recently published in the Times and Guardian was a piece on behalf of some EU citizens here, well worth a read. Overlaying those more dispassionate analyses though has been a deliberate smokescreen, the same tactics used by people who denigrate climate scientists and before them tobacco manufacturers' resistance to the evidence of harm produced by their products.
We Brits and Northern Irish can be a bolshy lot, but my hope is that, underneath that, common sense, decency and tolerance will prevail as the pencil hovers over the ballot paper. Either that, or in the morning were all f**cked!

 

[underguy1]

I've just read back through your posts on this topic, not only do you handle ripostes with great diplomacy, but the quality of your arguments, and the way you out them, is something that has been sadly lacking from the mainstream proponents on both sides here.
There has been accurate, balanced information available, but one had to dig for it, not rely on the campaigns. The Governor of The Bank of England for example, or the Institute of Fiscal Studies. Recently published in the Times and Guardian was a piece on behalf of some EU citizens here, well worth a read. Overlaying those more dispassionate analyses though has been a deliberate smokescreen, the same tactics used by people who denigrate climate scientists and before them tobacco manufacturers' resistance to the evidence of harm produced by their products.
We Brits and Northern Irish can be a bolshy lot, but my hope is that, underneath that, common sense, decency and tolerance will prevail as the pencil hovers over the ballot paper. Either that, or in the morning were all f**cked!

Hahahahahahahahaha!!!!!

Project Fear has worked on this one.

Can you give me a single instance of those lunatics at the IFS being right? And Mark Carney is a practiced liar and charlatan.

Anyone quoting the figures that these clowns have been spouting are just lying. There simply is no way to forecast the unforcastable.

 

[Friendlymann]

I saw a report that Brexit campaigners have been using quick fire bots to rubbish Remain-supporting Twitter posts. I wonder if they are all bots and if they are limited only to Twitter?