Brexit?

[underguy1]

The Treaty was signed without consulting most of the electorates in Europe. Those who did consult and got a negative response were told to think again.

'damn the people' is what it sounds and looks like.

The EU is flawed. We always knew it was but hoped for change. Whether it can now, or ever could, we don't know.

What happens now? We don't know.

The UK has voted for change. Whether we will like the changes we get? We don't know. What we do know is that the EU (not Europe) was deeply unpopular in the UK. That it was so unpopular that it caused a vote to leave has been a surprise - pleasant or unpleasant depending on your viewpoint.

I think we have implemented the ancient Chinese curse:

"May you live in interesting times"

The EU is unpopular throughout most of the EU. The last poll I saw had a majority of 'mostly negative' sentiment in most of the statelets.

I'll try to dig up the most recent results.

 

[DeYaKen]

Pride and nationalism are not always a good thing. Changes can best be made from inside an organization. A tough decision but the better one.

Those people who say that it was just a free trade organisation when we joined are wrong. The movement towards political union was already underway, why else would there be a European Parliament. A free trade association doesn't need one of those

In 1975 the IN campaign asked us to vote to stay in and work to change it from the inside. Forty years and 16 countries later, how much has changed? In terms of what was wrong with the EEC very little changed. The Parliament has been given the power to approve new laws but that is about it. They have no power to veto new members and they had no say in setting up the Euro at all. The structure of the EU prevents true democracy and that was deliberately done so that the Germans couldn't overrule the French.

The democracy argument was the best reason for leaving. However, that is not why most people wanted to leave. For most, there were two important factors, immigration, and the myth that all our laws were made in Europe.

When Brexit people said they could CONTROL immigration, the public read that as they could REDUCE immigration. That simply isn't the case,employers will still need labour both skilled and unskilled. In order to keep producing, we will have to allow more people in and the cost of processing their applications will eat up a lot of the EU contribution savings.

Brexit campaign and the British press have been telling us that up to eighty percent of our laws were written in Europe. In fact, the amount is somewhere between 13 and 30 per cent.

The problems in Britain were not created by the EU. They were created by the succession of right wing governments we have elected since the 1970s. The policies of these governments have left us with inequality of society that we haven't seen since victorian days. We have, by far, the highest level of inequality in Europe.

Part of the reason we have to import skills, and make no mistake there are far more of them than there are unskilled labourers from the EU, is that our own government destroyed the nation's ability to train workers.

 

[BaritoneTele]

LOL you lot sound more like Americans than any of you would like to admit.

This is great.

I just wish we could vote to leave the union when we get sick and tired of some fuckin' prick 3,000 miles away decided to start micromanaging us.

 

[DeYaKen]

What utter nonsense. You expect me to take you seriously when you tell ridiculous lies?

I don't expect you to believe anything you don't like. why would you start now.

I have told you how it was in communist Eastern Europe before the fall of Communism. I know, I was there. What evidence can you provide to the contrary? None because there isn't any.

And yet they managed to do it mostly. Even within the restrictions of the Bretton Woods system.

Now, government policy is to create unemployment as their means to 'fight inflation'.

No the UK government's policy is to import cheap labour to keep salaries low, and reduce working condition to the ones that the immigrant workers tolerated at home.

Another absurd lie. Do you think we can't see the Grauniad etc from outside the UK?

Have you no dignity?

You can read the Guardian so you will know the circulation figures. They are far too low to be considered part of the "popular press". I suppose if you included "The Morning Star" and the "Socialist Worker" you might have come close to 25% of the newspapers supporting the IN vote. But then you know that which is why you are trying an attack in order to avoid accepting that you are talking out of your anal orifice. For the record The SUN, Daily Mail, Daily Express, Daily Telegraph, Daily Sport, all lined up in favour of Brexit. The Times sat on the fence.

Given that all this information is available to you, you still choose to lie because you can't stand the thought of being wrong.

 

[DeYaKen]

The EU is flawed. We always knew it was but hoped for change. Whether it can now, or ever could, we don't know.

No dispute there. I don't think it is possible for it to change. It would need to be broken down to its original treaty and rebuilt from there. Without treaty change, the best they can do is to change the role of the Parliament allowing it to amend laws, as well as just approving them.

What happens now? We don't know.

The UK has voted for change. Whether we will like the changes we get? We don't know. What we do know is that the EU (not Europe) was deeply unpopular in the UK. That it was so unpopular that it caused a vote to leave has been a surprise - pleasant or unpleasant depending on your viewpoint.

I think we have implemented the ancient Chinese curse:

"May you live in interesting times"

You are right No one knows. If we are going to enjoy success we are going to have to start seriously supporting manufacturing since services are the last thing that other countries allow access to.

The positive thing is that the referendum showed that you can get people to vote when they know their vote counts. Our, first past the post system means that people often feel that their vote doesn't count.

 

[Hard_Rom]

LOL you lot sound more like Americans than any of you would like to admit.

This is great.

I just wish we could vote to leave the union when we get sick and tired of some fuckin' prick 3,000 miles away decided to start micromanaging us.

That is like California or B.C. leaving due to distance from Washington and Ottawa. There is no perfect solutions. We have to make the best of what we have.

Follow the money. Sterling plummeted, Euro plummeted. The money knows.

 

[BaritoneTele]

That is like California or B.C. leaving due to distance from Washington and Ottawa.

Yea? People have been telling bureaucrats/pols overstepping their authority and fucking their shit up to get fucked for ages and they have a fairly decent record of being better off for it in the long run. I notice it usually depends on if they are big/rich enough to survive the short term shit storm that follows separation.

If they make it the first couple years without falling apart or getting their ass beat they usually do quite well.

There is no perfect solutions. We have to make the best of what we have.

And sometimes the best is telling that 'authority' on the other side of the content/ocean/planet to go fuck itself with a cactus.

Follow the money. Sterling plummeted, Euro plummeted. The money knows.

The money is scared and panicky...it doesn't know shit right now.

Once people see the UK didn't collapse into a black hole because they left the EU it will bounce back.

 

[underguy1]

I don't expect you to believe anything you don't like. why would you start now.

I have told you how it was in communist Eastern Europe before the fall of Communism. I know, I was there. What evidence can you provide to the contrary? None because there isn't any.

You're just an outright liar. And you get the same evidence test as I do. Don't try that with me.

No the UK government's policy is to import cheap labour to keep salaries low, and reduce working condition to the ones that the immigrant workers tolerated at home.

You claimed to be an economist. No economist would make that statement or speak in those terms.

You can read the Guardian so you will know the circulation figures. They are far too low to be considered part of the "popular press". I suppose if you included "The Morning Star" and the "Socialist Worker" you might have come close to 25% of the newspapers supporting the IN vote. But then you know that which is why you are trying an attack in order to avoid accepting that you are talking out of your anal orifice. For the record The SUN, Daily Mail, Daily Express, Daily Telegraph, Daily Sport, all lined up in favour of Brexit. The Times sat on the fence.

Given that all this information is available to you, you still choose to lie because you can't stand the thought of being wrong.

Well good friends of mine in the UK report pretty much exactly the opposite of what you claim. The establishment propaganda factory was in overtime, much as it was in the Scottish referendum.

And my reading of the goings on were consistent with that.

That fact that Farrage got so much press is NOT an indicator of leave bias, matey. Quite the reverse.

In this case, they couldn't get the vote close enough to flip the result.

Maybe you're just not smart enough (or old enough?) to appreciate how establishment propaganda works.

 

[DeYaKen]

You're just an outright liar. And you get the same evidence test as I do. Don't try that with me.

Yeah, communist eastern Europe was the land of milk and honey. There was no unemployment, No homosexuality, no drug addiction, no crime and no Aids. People like you lapped it up because it fitted with you cosy little image of how things were. While you we extolling the virtues of communism some of us actually went there to help the poor bastards who had to live under that perfect regime. Of course, you've never experienced having a grown man kiss and hug you with tears in his eyes because you've given him, his first work record book in three years. Why did he lose his party card ? Because he was a Seventh-day Adventist.

Indeed it was such a wonderful place that people risked their lives to escape and on the day the borders were open they queued for miles, abandoning their wonderful secure jobs to get to a life of insecurity.
Something else which is so well documented You only have to Google it.

You claimed to be an economist. No economist would make that statement or speak in those terms.

More lies. I have never in my entire life, claimed to be an economist.

Well good friends of mine in the UK report pretty much exactly the opposite of what you claim. The establishment propaganda factory was in overtime, much as it was in the Scottish referendum.

And my reading of the goings on were consistent with that.

That's because you only choose to read things which back up your own prejudices

Why rely on the word of your friends. Look up the front pages of The Sun, The Express, The Daily Mail, The Sport, The Torygraph on June 23rd. It's public record, available on the internet.

That fact that Farrage got so much press is NOT an indicator of leave bias, matey. Quite the reverse.

In this case, they couldn't get the vote close enough to flip the result.

Oh, I see now. It was all a big conspiracy. Big up the Brexit campaign so that the rebellious Brits will vote the other way. A double bluff. Just like when the CIA brought down the twin towers and blamed it on the Arabs. Damn, why didn't I see that? Thank you so much for your insight.

Maybe you're just not smart enough (or old enough?) to appreciate how establishment propaganda works.

That's rich coming from the man who obviously lapped up all the propaganda coming out of the Soviet union. Guaranteed Jobs, Ha Ha that really was a good one. Ever thought of doing stand up?

 

[underguy1]

Yeah, communist eastern Europe was the land of milk and honey. There was no unemployment, No homosexuality, no drug addiction, no crime and no Aids.

Nobody said that except you.

People like you lapped it up because it fitted with you cosy little image of how things were. While you we extolling the virtues of communism some of us actually went there to help the poor bastards who had to live under that perfect regime. Of course, you've never experienced having a grown man kiss and hug you with tears in his eyes because you've given him, his first work record book in three years. Why did he lose his party card ? Because he was a Seventh-day Adventist.

Oh what utter crap. That's so laughable on so many levels.

How the fuck did you get this imaginary friend a work card? Laughable nonsense.

You have no idea of who I am, what I've done or what I believe.

You're an idiot for pursuing this line of attempted emotional blackmail.

Indeed it was such a wonderful place that people risked their lives to escape and on the day the borders were open they queued for miles, abandoning their wonderful secure jobs to get to a life of insecurity.
Something else which is so well documented You only have to Google it.

More irrelevance.

More lies. I have never in my entire life, claimed to be an economist.

Perhaps I'v confused you for some other idiot.

That's because you only choose to read things which back up your own prejudices

Dude, you just can't make assertions like that if you're not an idiot.

Why rely on the word of your friends. Look up the front pages of The Sun, The Express, The Daily Mail, The Sport, The Torygraph on June 23rd. It's public record, available on the internet.



Oh, I see now. It was all a big conspiracy. Big up the Brexit campaign so that the rebellious Brits will vote the other way. A double bluff. Just like when the CIA brought down the twin towers and blamed it on the Arabs. Damn, why didn't I see that? Thank you so much for your insight.

Ad hominem stupidity.

That's rich coming from the man who obviously lapped up all the propaganda coming out of the Soviet union. Guaranteed Jobs, Ha Ha that really was a good one. Ever thought of doing stand up?

I was never subjected to Soviet propaganda. I grew up in the west so was subject to western propaganda.

I grew out of it when I saw the world up close. You obviously haven't.

Yes. Anyone could have a job and they didn't have to be in the party. And you're an outrageous lying POS.

And there's no reason why any western government couldn't guarantee full employment either.

 

[DeYaKen]

Nobody said that except you.

Yes they did The soviet Union rep[eatedly stated that they had no crime, (That is the reason why all the apartment had Steel outer doors with a padlock inside a metal tube so that you couldn't use bolt cutters to cut them off)had no homosexuality (homosexuals were treated as insane) no drug addiction (that was a purely western disease) and no AIDs (because that was linked to homosexuality)

Oh what utter crap. That's so laughable on so many levels.

How the fuck did you get this imaginary friend a work card? Laughable nonsense.

You have no idea of who I am, what I've done or what I believe.

You're an idiot for pursuing this line of attempted emotional blackmail.



More irrelevance.

I know that you've never been to communist eastern Europe on anything other than a holiday or you would know what I am saying is true.

The work card was a record of employment. You got one as soon as you were given a contract. I ran an NGO over there and unlike businesses which were all state-owned. we could hire who we liked. After three months working on a casual basis we gave the man a contract which meant giving him a work card, which was more of a book. I was overwhelmed by his response and asked why he reacted that way. He told me that the card, well it was more like a small book, meant that he and his family could go to the doctor and get treated in the hospital now. I later found out how true that was when another employee fell off the back of an ox cart and sustained a head and neck injury. I drove her the twenty miles to the hospital strapped to a door, in the back of our 4X4 (an Aro if I remember rightly) Although they admitted her, I had to go back the following day with her work card before they would start treatment. Incidentally, her husband also had to take a small bribe for the doctor, and her food.

Sure was a great place to live.

Perhaps I'v confused you for some other idiot.

No problem I've known from the outstart that I was dealing with a confused mind. It comes to us all in the end.

Dude, you just can't make assertions like that if you're not an idiot.

Yes I some sort of can, you dismiss as lies anything which disturbs your view of communism being some form of utopia. It makes sense that you would treat the written word the same way.

I was never subjected to Soviet propaganda. I grew up in the west so was subject to western propaganda.

Oh, so you were subjectively blind and deaf then were you. I grew up with soviet propaganda. The Morning Star was full of it. Nikita Kruschev was all over the newsreels. We all called each other brother and some even used comrade. When I went there I did see it up close. In a land where everyone was supposed to be equal the general secretary (president) didn't just have his own train he had his own station. I saw a six-lane highway that was reserved for his use. I saw people going for three months or more without being paid. I heard the sentence which showed how they coped "we pretend to work and the government pretends to pay us." Up close you see people scratching for casual work because they've upset someone important and their party membership has been revoked or suspended. I too had this vision of a wonderful world. Like George Orwell, I grew out of it when I saw it up close. You obviously haven't.

Yes. Anyone could have a job and they didn't have to be in the party. And you're an outrageous lying POS.

All businesses were owned by the state. If the state says you don't work you don't work. The state was run by the party so it was the party who said who worked and who didn't. If you were a party member you worked. if not you scratched around for casual work on farms or street gangs and hoped that you would get paid. You really should have spent some time there, it was an eye opener. Don't get me started on the role of women.

And there's no reason why any western government couldn't guarantee full employment either.

Now who isn't living in the real world? We don't have a command economy, we have a demand economy. When there is no demand there can be no production hence no work. I'll bet you even have down on Honda for only paying their men eighty per cent of their salary when they were laid off. They should have kept producing cars that nobody wanted.

 

[underguy1]

Yes they did The soviet Union rep[eatedly stated that they had no crime, (That is the reason why all the apartment had Steel outer doors with a padlock inside a metal tube so that you couldn't use bolt cutters to cut them off)had no homosexuality (homosexuals were treated as insane) no drug addiction (that was a purely western disease) and no AIDs (because that was linked to homosexuality)

Strawman. I have made no such assertions.

I know that you've never been to communist eastern Europe on anything other than a holiday or you would know what I am saying is true.

You don't know anything of the sort.

The work card was a record of employment. You got one as soon as you were given a contract.

Party membership was not required for employment. You're changing your tune.

I ran an NGO over there and unlike businesses which were all state-owned. we could hire who we liked. After three months working on a casual basis we gave the man a contract which meant giving him a work card, which was more of a book. I was overwhelmed by his response and asked why he reacted that way. He told me that the card, well it was more like a small book, meant that he and his family could go to the doctor and get treated in the hospital now. I later found out how true that was when another employee fell off the back of an ox cart and sustained a head and neck injury. I drove her the twenty miles to the hospital strapped to a door, in the back of our 4X4 (an Aro if I remember rightly) Although they admitted her, I had to go back the following day with her work card before they would start treatment. Incidentally, her husband also had to take a small bribe for the doctor, and her food.

Sure was a great place to live.

This anecdote is irrelevant and probably untrue.

No problem I've known from the outstart that I was dealing with a confused mind. It comes to us all in the end.

Oh how very droll. Ironic coming from a religious nutter too.

Yes I some sort of can, you dismiss as lies anything which disturbs your view of communism being some form of utopia. It makes sense that you would treat the written word the same way.

I have no such view. Yet another strawman.

Oh, so you were subjectively blind and deaf then were you. I grew up with soviet propaganda. The Morning Star was full of it. Nikita Kruschev was all over the newsreels. We all called each other brother and some even used comrade. When I went there I did see it up close. In a land where everyone was supposed to be equal the general secretary (president) didn't just have his own train he had his own station. I saw a six-lane highway that was reserved for his use. I saw people going for three months or more without being paid. I heard the sentence which showed how they coped "we pretend to work and the government pretends to pay us." Up close you see people scratching for casual work because they've upset someone important and their party membership has been revoked or suspended. I too had this vision of a wonderful world. Like George Orwell, I grew out of it when I saw it up close. You obviously haven't.

Another pointless anecdote. And you have misinterpreted Orwell.

I'm not concerned about Soviet communism. I'm living in a world being torn apart by rampant western capitalism.

A system that you seem NOT to have looked at.

All businesses were owned by the state. If the state says you don't work you don't work. The state was run by the party so it was the party who said who worked and who didn't. If you were a party member you worked. if not you scratched around for casual work on farms or street gangs and hoped that you would get paid. You really should have spent some time there, it was an eye opener. Don't get me started on the role of women.

False.

Now who isn't living in the real world? We don't have a command economy, we have a demand economy. When there is no demand there can be no production hence no work. I'll bet you even have down on Honda for only paying their men eighty per cent of their salary when they were laid off. They should have kept producing cars that nobody wanted.

Sovereign government fiscal policy can and should be consistent with maintaining aggregate demand at full employment over the business cycle.

That's what the work of Keynes and others taught us.

And it is what the neoliberals deny.

 

[DeYaKen]

You don't know anything of the sort.

The fact that you deny the truth is enough for me to know you've never spent more than a holiday there.So you are talking from a position of ignorance

Party membership was not required for employment. You're changing your tune.

if you read the post before replying you would know that was not true.

This anecdote is irrelevant and probably untrue.

it is relevant because you asked why I was in a position to hire the man who had his party membership revoked you also disputed that you had to have a job to get healthcare but I didn't expect you to believe anything which discredits your ideal regime.

Oh how very droll. Ironic coming from a religious nutter too.

What? did I make a joke? that's not like me. This may come as a surprise to you, but for some of us, it is not enough to sit on our arse and whine about what bad people do or to lecture others on what they should do. For some of us, the outrage is so strong that we have to get off our arse and do something about it. I realise that is a foreign concept to an armchair socialist such as yourself but we don't even need a god of any kind to do it. We do it because helping our fellow man is the right thing to do. That is true socialism.

Another pointless anecdote. And you have misinterpreted Orwell.

No, I haven't. He went to Russia a burgeoning communist, came back and wrote 1984 and had nothing to do with communism from that day forward.

I'm not concerned about Soviet communism.

So why spend so much time defending it? Why keep pretending the truth isn't, if you are not concerned? Could it be your confused mind again?

I'm living in a world being torn apart by rampant western capitalism.

indeed you are but apart from sitting on your arse posting irrelevant arguments on bulletin boards that few people read, what are you doing about it?

A system that you seem NOT to have looked at.

If you ever took any notice of what other people write you would see the falsehood in what you've written there. The difference between us is that I do get off my arse and do what I can to help the people affected by it

False.

Says the man who has no first-hand experience. Talking from a position of ignorance again.

Sovereign government fiscal policy can and should be consistent with maintaining aggregate demand at full employment over the business cycle.

That requires government involvement in running the businesses and our system doesn't allow that.

That's what the work of Keynes and others taught us.

Are you seriously telling me that Keynes said, in a free market economy, it is possible to guarantee 100 % employment? please point me in the direction of that quote. That is what we were talking about. You said it was possible to guarantee full employment. I have too much respect for the man to believe he said any such thing unless Ii see it in black and white.

And it is what the neoliberals deny.

Well, our current chancellor likes to selectively quote Keynes. I'm surprised your friends here haven't told you that. I think he believes that by dropping Keynes name every now and then, he can make people believe that he knows what he is doing.

Toodle pip old fruit. Gotta go, there are peeps who need me.

 

[underguy1]

Blah, blah, blah irrelevant strawmen and ad hominem

That requires government involvement in running the businesses and our system doesn't allow that.

It does not. It is fiscal policy.

Are you seriously telling me that Keynes said, in a free market economy, it is possible to guarantee 100 % employment? please point me in the direction of that quote.

Yes he did. That was kind of the takeaway biggie of 'The General Theory" old chap. Maybe you should read about these things that you like to spout about.

That is what we were talking about. You said it was possible to guarantee full employment. I have too much respect for the man to believe he said any such thing unless Ii see it in black and white.

Why isn't it possible to guarantee full employment. It's easier now than in Keynes' day when gold standard thinking was still about.

Well, our current chancellor likes to selectively quote Keynes. I'm surprised your friends here haven't told you that. I think he believes that by dropping Keynes name every now and then, he can make people believe that he knows what he is doing.

Toodle pip old fruit. Gotta go, there are peeps who need me.

I have no interest in what Osborne says about Keynes. The man is a committed neoliberal.