Brexit?

[underguy1]

I saw a report that Brexit campaigners have been using quick fire bots to rubbish Remain-supporting Twitter posts. I wonder if they are all bots and if they are limited only to Twitter?

If you're accusing me of being a bot but just not man enough to do so directly, you're quite wrong.

I'm a life long leftist, a heterodox economist and an anti-fascist. I believe that well paid work is a human right and that poverty is an outrage.

What do you believe?

Whatever you read in the papers and see on the telly box?

 

[oggbashan]

I passed the local polling station a couple of times this morning.

The activity, despite intermittent heavy rain, was more than for a General Election.

Whether that means anything? Probably not. I live in a safe Conservative constituency so General Election voting changes nothing.

 

[DeYaKen]

They did in fact. And not just communists. All the developed western economies practised full employment policy until the neoliberals gained the upper hand in the mid to late 1970s.

Now we have deliberate unemployment policy which they pretend is designed to 'fight inflation'. But the real game is to keep wages low and the profit share of national income rising while the wage share declines.

The right to work is part of the UN convention on Human Rights in fact. So all our governments are in breach of their duties.

No, Your wrong. The communists didn't guarantee every person a job. In order to get a job, you had to be a party member. They controlled the people by threatening to take away their party membership. No Party membership, no job. No job, no healthcare or access to any social facilities. I've lived there too, seen it in action.

There is a big difference between a full employment policy and guaranteeing everyone a job. One is a declaration of intent the other is a statement of fact.

For your information, 90% of the popular press are pushing for Brexit. The Daily Mirror stands alone. When the fascist DailyMail wants me to vote Leave it's a pretty good reason to do the opposite.

 

[DeYaKen]

I've just read back through your posts on this topic, not only do you handle ripostes with great diplomacy, but the quality of your arguments, and the way you out them, is something that has been sadly lacking from the mainstream proponents on both sides here.
There has been accurate, balanced information available, but one had to dig for it, not rely on the campaigns. The Governor of The Bank of England for example, or the Institute of Fiscal Studies. Recently published in the Times and Guardian was a piece on behalf of some EU citizens here, well worth a read. Overlaying those more dispassionate analyses though has been a deliberate smokescreen, the same tactics used by people who denigrate climate scientists and before them tobacco manufacturers' resistance to the evidence of harm produced by their products.
We Brits and Northern Irish can be a bolshy lot, but my hope is that, underneath that, common sense, decency and tolerance will prevail as the pencil hovers over the ballot paper. Either that, or in the morning were all f**cked!

Unfortunately, I think we're all fucked, no matter which way we vote. Perhaps, in the end, it comes down to how painful the fucking might be. I have been using a website called fullfact.org for the analysis of what people on both sides say and combining that with what I already know of the EU. Fullfact is supported by public donation so is as near as you can get to independent. What it shows is that both sides are lying through their teeth.

I don't think we brits are bolshy enough. maybe it would do us good to blockade ports or block roads. The problem is that in Britain the Police are far more of a political tool than they are in France. You only had to be around during the miner's strike to see that.

Tomorrow the sun will still rise and the birds will still sing, and no matter which way the vote goes we will not give notice of our intention to withdraw from the EU.

 

[oggbashan]

I don't think we brits are bolshy enough. maybe it would do us good to blockade ports or block roads. The problem is that in Britain the Police are far more of a political tool than they are in France. You only had to be around during the miner's strike to see that.

...

The French Police? They have three types of Police. The normal Police have few powers. The Gendarmarie are a semi-military organisation. But the CRS? If you see them on the street it is time to be somewhere else - fast.

The French Government won't tackle left-wing actions such as farmers and railworkers strikes. But unemployed Arab youths? Out come the water cannon, the tear gas and anything else they can use.

The French state authorities can be even more vicious than the UK's were during the miners' strike. They just have different targets. Arguing with any French Policeman, Gendarme, or CRS Member is asking for trouble and physical assault.

 

[Jessie_Pinkman]

Huge win in Sunderland sees Brexit take the lead… but final polls suggest it’s on a knife-edge

https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/nintchdbpict000247045602-e1466725259301.jpg?w=960

 

[Jessie_Pinkman]

BBC: Brexit wins

 

[LadyVer]

This issue reminds me of Texas' continual threat to leave the union. Do it, you whiny right-wing extremist pussies.

 

[Rachel_X]

Freedom, freedom, freedom, oy!
It's freedom day!

 

[Hard_Rom]

IMO, this is a mistake. It is driven 'mostly' by the fear of terrorist and refugees. It very possibly could signal the end of the EU. With that a few countries may slide into chaos. Enough do and all of Europe will feel the hit.

I am an English nationalist to a large extent but still feel this is a mistake. Britain will lose the economic clout of being in the world largest free trade zone.

In the long run greater repercussions than if Scotland had voted to leave the UK. In fact this may tip the scales and give Scottish nationalist the edge to force another referendum and leave the UK.

A black day in English history.

 

[Rachel_X]

IMO, this is a mistake. It is driven 'mostly' by the fear of terrorist and refugees. It very possibly could signal the end of the EU. With that a few countries may slide into chaos. Enough do and all of Europe will feel the hit.

I am an English nationalist to a large extent but still feel this is a mistake. Britain will lose the economic clout of being in the world largest free trade zone.

In the long run greater repercussions than if Scotland had voted to leave the UK. In fact this may tip the scales and give Scottish nationalist the edge to force another referendum and leave the UK.

A black day in English history.

Most of the UK wanted Scotland to leave. They're a huge drain on the rest.
The EU is done for anyway. France are on the verge of voting in a right-wing government for the reason of getting a referendum on EU membership. Once they go, which they will, the EU will collapse. The French people are by far more in favour of leaving the EU than the British are.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Most of the UK wanted Scotland to leave. They're a huge drain on the rest.
The EU is done for anyway. France are on the verge of voting in a right-wing government for the reason of getting a referendum on EU membership. Once they go, which they will, the EU will collapse. The French people are by far more in favour of leaving the EU than the British are.

I disagree. I think most of the UK wished Scotland would stay. Just because the French are falling to right wing politics is no reason the UK should trump them and leave first.

If your friends jump off a cliff is no reason to follow them. Again this vote was driven by fear.

 

[Rachel_X]

I disagree. I think most of the UK wished Scotland would stay. Just because the French are falling to right wing politics is no reason the UK should trump them and leave first.

If your friends jump off a cliff is no reason to follow them. Again this vote was driven by fear.

If the rest of the UK was given the vote, Scotland would have been kicked out.

People are just sick of being told what we can and can't do by those that don't and never have lived here.
The UK gets told what it's laws are. It gets told who can and can't be let in. It gets told who it can and can't trade with.
None of that was in the original agreement that the EU was founded on. They just decided one day that they wanted control and took it.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Pride and nationalism are not always a good thing. Changes can best be made from inside an organization. A tough decision but the better one.

 

[Rachel_X]

Pride and nationalism are not always a good thing. Changes can best be made from inside an organization. A tough decision but the better one.

And once the EU collapses, nobody will need to worry about change.
It can be started again from scratch without the corruption and stick to what it was and should have remained: a free trade market.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Greek, Italian and Spanish economic migrants will be the next thing to fear. Eastern European countries will swing to the Russian sphere of influence. The EU did not go far enough and progress to a true unified political entity. It did not due to pandering to nationalistic ideals. Halfway measures and pandering to the mob are never a good idea. Look at healthcare and gun laws in the US. A hodgepodge of half measures resulting in higher costs and chaos.

 

[Rachel_X]

Greek, Italian and Spanish economic migrants will be the next thing to fear. Eastern European countries will swing to the Russian sphere of influence. The EU did not go far enough and progress to a true unified political entity. It did not due to pandering to nationalistic ideals. Halfway measures and pandering to the mob are never a good idea. Look at healthcare and gun laws in the US. A hodgepodge of half measures resulting in higher costs and chaos.

It's hardly pandering when the majority of people don't want a unified political entity.

 

[Frizzle_Fry]

Pride and nationalism are not always a good thing. Changes can best be made from inside an organization. A tough decision but the better one.

Better one according to who?

Greek, Italian and Spanish economic migrants will be the next thing to fear.

No they wont LOL...UK can now tell them all to fuck right off. There are no more assholes thousands of miles away forcing them to accept fuck tons of migrants.

Look at healthcare and gun laws in the US. A hodgepodge of half measures resulting in higher costs and chaos.

The US HC isn't a half measure, it's doing exactly what it was built to do, fuck the working class and poor even harder and it's doing a fabulous job.

The ACA is pretty much as close to direct extortion for private gain as we've ever gotten from the feds, it was never meant to get more people affordable care it was meant to make DNC supporters in the insurance/pharmaceutical and HC industry super ultra insano fuckin' rich.

It's hardly pandering when the majority of people don't want a unified political entity.

Go easy on him, England his precious socialist paradise just went Trump on him

 

[oggbashan]

One of the issues, not a headline factor, was that the EU organisation is hell bent on political union and damn the people.

The EU managers had repeatedly said that the minimal concessions given to David Cameron were the total changes that could be offered in EU institutions and that even those concessions might not be delivered in practice.

It wasn't 'take your share of the cake and eat it', but 'here's a few crumbs' - and we might snatch them away.

If the UK had voted to remain there would have been NO change in the EU organisation and no change in its direction towards admitting more countries to an ever closer undemocratic union.

Those who wanted the EU to change, to become better, to become more democratic were told bluntly that Britain couldn't have those changes. Nein, Non, Nyet...

Britain had been trying for 30 years to change the direction of the EU and hadn't achieved any significant improvement.

The vote to Leave might make the EU administration change their minds. I don't think so. They might repeat what they did when Ireland voted against them - Tell the UK to go back and vote again until we get it 'right'.

 

[Scotsman69]

There are several inevitable consequences of today's victory for the racist Little Englanders. They won't happen tomorrow, but they will happen in my lifetime, and I'm now 69 years old.

1. Ireland will once again be a proudly united nation, now that the English-gerrymandered artificial statelet of Northern Ireland has voted to remain in the EU.

2. Scotland will join the long list of proud wee nations who have regained the right to rule themselves. The solid Scottish vote to Remain guarantees that. Not tomorrow, but in a few years.

3. In consequence, the 'United Kingdom' will cease to exist as a state, and Little England will nose-dive in economic power and influence. The Union Jack will become an historical oddity.

4. The USA will lose the free addition to its nuclear armour provided at present by UK taxpayers, in the form of the Scottish-based 'independent' UK Trident nuclear weapon system. There is nowhere in Little England to put its replacement, so it won't be replaced.

 

[DeYaKen]

There are several inevitable consequences of today's victory for the racist Little Englanders. They won't happen tomorrow, but they will happen in my lifetime, and I'm now 69 years old.

1. Ireland will once again be a proudly united nation, now that the English-gerrymandered artificial statelet of Northern Ireland has voted to remain in the EU.

Gerry Adams call for a referendum on a united Ireland is missing the point that the southerners don't actually want the North. They were offered it during WW2 but turned it down. They know full well that they would be taking on a hotbed of unrest. It was not just the Catholics who resorted to the bomb and bullet, during the troubles.

2. Scotland will join the long list of proud wee nations who have regained the right to rule themselves. The solid Scottish vote to Remain guarantees that. Not tomorrow, but in a few years.

That's what we kept being told during the campaign but the scots were not attached enough to the EU to go out and vote, Despite having the best of weather they had a much lower turnout than the rest of the UK.

3. In consequence, the 'United Kingdom' will cease to exist as a state, and Little England will nose-dive in economic power and influence. The Union Jack will become an historical oddity.

Well, that is the sort of unsubstantiated conjecture that dogged the whole campaign.

4. The USA will lose the free addition to its nuclear armour provided at present by UK taxpayers, in the form of the Scottish-based 'independent' UK Trident nuclear weapon system. There is nowhere in Little England to put its replacement, so it won't be replaced.

That is not true there are plenty of places to locate such a base. It would take time to build, but then separation from the UK would take a few years. Whether we should spend such huge amount of money on a weapon system that we can never use is another thing altogether. It would be good to see a referendum on that.

 

[sr71plt]

I guess now would be the time to respond to the poll that yes, Britain with leave the EU, and then do a victory lap for having been right.

 

[DeYaKen]

One of the issues, not a headline factor, was that the EU organisation is hell bent on political union and damn the people.

The EU managers had repeatedly said that the minimal concessions given to David Cameron were the total changes that could be offered in EU institutions and that even those concessions might not be delivered in practice.

It wasn't 'take your share of the cake and eat it', but 'here's a few crumbs' - and we might snatch them away.

If the UK had voted to remain there would have been NO change in the EU organisation and no change in its direction towards admitting more countries to an ever closer undemocratic union.

Those who wanted the EU to change, to become better, to become more democratic were told bluntly that Britain couldn't have those changes. Nein, Non, Nyet...

Britain had been trying for 30 years to change the direction of the EU and hadn't achieved any significant improvement.

The vote to Leave might make the EU administration change their minds. I don't think so. They might repeat what they did when Ireland voted against them - Tell the UK to go back and vote again until we get it 'right'.

I think you are being a bit harsh when you say damn the people. However, the dream of a United States of Europe was most definitely being pursued. The problem is that it doesn't have the underlying framework necessary to support that dream. There was no chance that they could change the underlying structure not because of the people but because of the governments of member nations. All of the smaller nations have a disproportionately large level of influence and would never give that up.

The concessions that might have made a difference were never going to be given, not because of some anti-British attitude,but because they would require treaty change. Treaty change would trigger referenda in a number of member states. They knew that there was a good chance those referenda would fail.

We are not out of the EU yet, in fact, the clock isn't even ticking on that yet. Article 50 has not yet been invoked and won't be until we have a new prime minister. Even then it may not start straight away. There is every chance that we won't be out before the next general election. You might well find Boris telling you that he has negotiated a much better deal than Cameron so he is keeping us in.

 

[underguy1]

No, Your wrong. The communists didn't guarantee every person a job. In order to get a job, you had to be a party member. They controlled the people by threatening to take away their party membership. No Party membership, no job. No job, no healthcare or access to any social facilities. I've lived there too, seen it in action.

What utter nonsense. You expect me to take you seriously when you tell ridiculous lies?

There is a big difference between a full employment policy and guaranteeing everyone a job. One is a declaration of intent the other is a statement of fact.

And yet they managed to do it mostly. Even within the restrictions of the Bretton Woods system.

Now, government policy is to create unemployment as their means to 'fight inflation'.

For your information, 90% of the popular press are pushing for Brexit. The Daily Mirror stands alone. When the fascist DailyMail wants me to vote Leave it's a pretty good reason to do the opposite.

Another absurd lie. Do you think we can't see the Grauniad etc from outside the UK?

Have you no dignity?

 

[oggbashan]

I think you are being a bit harsh when you say damn the people. ...

The Treaty was signed without consulting most of the electorates in Europe. Those who did consult and got a negative response were told to think again.

'damn the people' is what it sounds and looks like.

The EU is flawed. We always knew it was but hoped for change. Whether it can now, or ever could, we don't know.

What happens now? We don't know.

The UK has voted for change. Whether we will like the changes we get? We don't know. What we do know is that the EU (not Europe) was deeply unpopular in the UK. That it was so unpopular that it caused a vote to leave has been a surprise - pleasant or unpleasant depending on your viewpoint.

I think we have implemented the ancient Chinese curse:

"May you live in interesting times"