Tryharder62
Keep Believing
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Church. Why?
- Thread starter jaF0
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Tryharder62
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butters
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that's wrong on so many levels and a simplistic, erroneous talking point pushed by the religious argument.So let me understand this. Billions of years ago..."every speck of energy jammed into a very tiny point. This extremely dense point exploded with unimaginable force, creating matter and propelling it outward to make the billions of galaxies of our universe." During that big bang our DNA bind together into fragile and intricate DNA that withstand that explosion to eventially produce all the different species that land on the earth. Hmm. I'd like to see the evidence of that using the scientific method. Show me the science. Truth does matter Butters. Neither of us can prove what we believe. No one was there to gather the data.
What I can never get you to understand is that I believe in adaptation. Also, I'm a nurse and yes...I understand Covid variants.
So your point is that only the non-religious are non-biased?
I think we both have faith but in different things.
Sing it Toby:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8xGaE4S2gk
science is an ongoing study, but we all rely on it and the fact others CAN prove things or else none of us would be here, using microchipped electronics and electricity, use recipes for cooking, trust vets to give our pooches medicine to control ticks and fleas and heartworm, take our own meds for diabetes or hp, have surgery involving anaesthesia, or even to drive cars. when a scientific concept is proven and reproven, held up to the light and examined with the toughest scrutiny by the originator's peers (and they're keen to disprove stuff!), then it is generally accepted as 'truth'. if new facts come to light due to advances in equipment to allow scientists to narrow perimeters or even change the direction of their idea, then that is also the function of science. we didn't have to be there, personally, to know that scientists learned how to split the atom, or that asteroids sometimes revisit earth millennia after their last appearances. science is dedicated to discovering truths, truths that may be applied to improve the lot of humanity, the earth, and also the financial standing of certain investors.
again, i don't know why you're saying you can never get me to believe your belief in adaptation... i never questioned that. However, adaptation would (to me) seem to be more about being to change our environment than physical changes due to evolution: we adapt by using fire, clothing, buildings; we adapt by building towers that can withstand earthquakes, or are built on stilts to avoid flooding dangers; we adapt using science to grow different crops to yield faster, more abundant harvests less prone to damage from weather and insects. Evolution is about physical changes, like blue eyes and the development of lactose tolerance amongst the population as a whole. It's about stuff like the dwindling appendix, pale skin, bone density and even the shape of bones themselves.
your service as a nurse is deeply appreciated!
no, i wasn't saying that either. just about everyone has biases, some far more extreme than others but i don't see that a non-religious person saying they're happy for you to do you (religion-wise) but that it doesn't give you (generic) the right to insist all live by your religion's tenets as me saying only the non religious are non biased. i honestly don't even know how you reached that inference
quite. to imply otherwise is either disingenuous or ignorant, and to attempt to show that as my intended implication is just weird. unless, of course it's what she's been taught that "science" thinks
Tryharder62
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that's wrong on so many levels and a simplistic, erroneous talking point pushed by the religious argument.
science is an ongoing study, but we all rely on it and the fact others CAN prove things or else none of us would be here, using microchipped electronics and electricity, use recipes for cooking, trust vets to give our pooches medicine to control ticks and fleas and heartworm, take our own meds for diabetes or hp, have surgery involving anaesthesia, or even to drive cars. when a scientific concept is proven and reproven, held up to the light and examined with the toughest scrutiny by the originator's peers (and they're keen to disprove stuff!), then it is generally accepted as 'truth'. if new facts come to light due to advances in equipment to allow scientists to narrow perimeters or even change the direction of their idea, then that is also the function of science. we didn't have to be there, personally, to know that scientists learned how to split the atom, or that asteroids sometimes revisit earth millennia after their last appearances. science is dedicated to discovering truths, truths that may be applied to improve the lot of humanity, the earth, and also the financial standing of certain investors.
again, i don't know why you're saying you can never get me to believe your belief in adaptation... i never questioned that. However, adaptation would (to me) seem to be more about being to change our environment than physical changes due to evolution: we adapt by using fire, clothing, buildings; we adapt by building towers that can withstand earthquakes, or are built on stilts to avoid flooding dangers; we adapt using science to grow different crops to yield faster, more abundant harvests less prone to damage from weather and insects. Evolution is about physical changes, like blue eyes and the development of lactose tolerance amongst the population as a whole. It's about stuff like the dwindling appendix, pale skin, bone density and even the shape of bones themselves.
your service as a nurse is deeply appreciated!
no, i wasn't saying that either. just about everyone has biases, some far more extreme than others but i don't see that a non-religious person saying they're happy for you to do you (religion-wise) but that it doesn't give you (generic) the right to insist all live by your religion's tenets as me saying only the non religious are non biased. i honestly don't even know how you reached that inference
quite. to imply otherwise is either disingenuous or ignorant, and to attempt to show that as my intended implication is just weird. unless, of course it's what she's been taught that "science" thinks
Oh my gosh: I have my Bachelors of Science in Nursing. I had to take chemistry, biology, animal biology, pathophysiology, sociology, psychology, and criminology. The later because I secretly want to be an armchair detective so chose that elective. Science can prove everything but it doesn't mean it has or will be able to. It means that sometimes we will not be able to prove our theory because the data is no longer available to us and never will be. How can it be truth one minute but with more data it changes direction. It is either truth or it's not.
Evolution is more than adaptation.
I have never asked once for anyone here to be a Christian or believe what I believe. Believe what you want. I do feel it is appropriate to share in a thread called Church: Why?.......Why!!!!
I spent 4 years learning science and 33 years practicing it. I am not disingenuous or ignorant because I disagree with you.
I appreciate your comments on my service as a nurse. I'm burnt out!
stickygirl
All the witches
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If your logic is correct why are there Christian Scientists? I believe in Science.
I have no life so...... talking about this is fun for me.
There is no evidence that it has always been expanding either.
Since you asked so nicely and we seem to be onto the science aspect...
I note your very decent string of qualifications and respect your hard work. What science can't really teach us is how, despite showing how big the universe is, how long it has been since the big bang and how complex life earth has become in our eyes, we are a meaningless blip and of no significance.
Mankind has always ascribed himself far too much importance: insisting the sun rotated the earth, that the earth is flat, that if there were an omnipotent creature he must surely have an interest in us. It stems from a fear of the unknown.
When I hear 'I accept the universe has been around for squillions of years but how come evolution has made pretty flowers' I think contradiction. You are not grasping how long a billion years is or how big the observable universe is: neither can I tbh - it does my head in. What I don't do is to make the leap from 'it's too long/big/old for me to understand' but 'DNA and evolution are too perfect to have happened by accident' therefore 'God'. This is not logic, it is assumption - the same assumption that had the sun rotating the earth. Keep in mind that the Church wanted to burn people at the stake for scientific discoveries and that was not a squillion years ago - see how far we've come in five hundred years.
To say that, because you can't grasp the concept of time and evolution, therefore god exists is fine, but don't try to bully other people with your charmingly flawed human-being-ness. But that's why there is religion, because you are not alone and I'm glad you have friends who feel the same way, because we all need friends.
I can be you friend too, because one of the nice things about the evolution of our species is that we look out for each other and value their contributions, even if we might hold opposing views on some airey-fairy things that will never buy us our next meal.
I have a wicked carrot cake recipe... I could have a look at your Hawaian weiner but I don't eat much red meat, so I'm not making promises. Have a hug
ishtat
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Our minds can be divided up in many ways. Tryharder adheres to a Biblical Literalist tradition of Christianity and also says she is a 'biology girl' - a scientist. She also says she believes in Adaptation but not Evolution.
My observation is that all of us have two compartments in our brains. One compartment contains what we know, the other contains what we believe. I too have a training in Science, initially in Mathematics and Physics at Uni then in 5 years of post grad work in the utilization of Maths in genetics/drugs research.
Science is about observation, collection and experimentation to determine facts and the drawing of conclusions from them. Adaptation has nothing to do with science: it is an assertion - a belief, and is made without evidence. And any assertion made without evidence can be refuted without evidence.
Having said that, I am not going to argue the case for Evolution; I suggest that any responsible scientist/biologist whatever their current views should read "On the origin of Species" by Charles Darwin. Almost everybody has a view on Darwin but hardly anyone has read him - they all read the controversialists who either promoted or attacked his ideas. He is surprisingly easy to read, and rather than argue incessantly, he just piles fact upon fact, observation upon observation, hundreds and thousands of them. On the whole, he states his view, says there are the facts, make up your own mind.
TH, I particularly recommend the book to you as a biologist and to that young man heading off to Seminary. It's the "Know thine enemy " principle. The book is less than $ 20 from Amazon and at 480 pages easy to get through in 30 days.
One word of caution - Read the book before the introduction then the Introducers will not influence you.
Finally a bit of mischief that I could not resist. Only about 2% of the Worlds Christians reject Evolution and I checked to see what the other major monotheists thought. Muslim scholars, surprisingly perhaps, first started to develop ideas of Evolution as early as the 9th century - over 1000 years ago. Most of the major Islamic countries, for example, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, teach Evolution as a matter of course. However, there is a section of Islam also about 2% which rejects evolution entirely, in similar terms to the Biblical Literalists. This group is made up of the Wahabi sect which rules Saudi Arabia and their allies the, Taliban in Afghanistan, ISIS in Syria, and Al Quaida.
Strange bedfellows indeed.
My observation is that all of us have two compartments in our brains. One compartment contains what we know, the other contains what we believe. I too have a training in Science, initially in Mathematics and Physics at Uni then in 5 years of post grad work in the utilization of Maths in genetics/drugs research.
Science is about observation, collection and experimentation to determine facts and the drawing of conclusions from them. Adaptation has nothing to do with science: it is an assertion - a belief, and is made without evidence. And any assertion made without evidence can be refuted without evidence.
Having said that, I am not going to argue the case for Evolution; I suggest that any responsible scientist/biologist whatever their current views should read "On the origin of Species" by Charles Darwin. Almost everybody has a view on Darwin but hardly anyone has read him - they all read the controversialists who either promoted or attacked his ideas. He is surprisingly easy to read, and rather than argue incessantly, he just piles fact upon fact, observation upon observation, hundreds and thousands of them. On the whole, he states his view, says there are the facts, make up your own mind.
TH, I particularly recommend the book to you as a biologist and to that young man heading off to Seminary. It's the "Know thine enemy " principle. The book is less than $ 20 from Amazon and at 480 pages easy to get through in 30 days.
One word of caution - Read the book before the introduction then the Introducers will not influence you.
Finally a bit of mischief that I could not resist. Only about 2% of the Worlds Christians reject Evolution and I checked to see what the other major monotheists thought. Muslim scholars, surprisingly perhaps, first started to develop ideas of Evolution as early as the 9th century - over 1000 years ago. Most of the major Islamic countries, for example, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, teach Evolution as a matter of course. However, there is a section of Islam also about 2% which rejects evolution entirely, in similar terms to the Biblical Literalists. This group is made up of the Wahabi sect which rules Saudi Arabia and their allies the, Taliban in Afghanistan, ISIS in Syria, and Al Quaida.
Strange bedfellows indeed.
hobbit.
Gods rep on Earth.
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having read three pages of this crap, i now realise just how (self)important most of the posters on Lit are.
All the crap being chatted about 'life, the universe and everything' just reminded me of The Hitch Hikers guide to the Galaxy.
to Answer the question though - simply because Bill Church is a very good bassist, Sammy Hagar rates him, so Did Ronnie Montrose, which is good enough for me.
Seans mate, Derpy, is good at religious stuff though.
All the crap being chatted about 'life, the universe and everything' just reminded me of The Hitch Hikers guide to the Galaxy.
to Answer the question though - simply because Bill Church is a very good bassist, Sammy Hagar rates him, so Did Ronnie Montrose, which is good enough for me.
Seans mate, Derpy, is good at religious stuff though.
hobbit.
Gods rep on Earth.
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Sing me a song, you're a singer
Do me a wrong, you're a bringer of evil
The devil is never a maker
The less that you give, you're a taker
So it's on and on and on, it's heaven and hell
Oh well
The lover of life's not a sinner
The ending is just a beginner
The closer you get to the meaning
The sooner you'll know that you're dreaming
So it's on and on and on, oh it's on and on and on
It goes on and on and on, Heaven and Hell
I can tell
Fool, fool
Oh uh
Yeah, yeah, yeah
Well if it seems to be real, it's illusion
For every moment of truth, there's confusion in life
Love can be seen as the answer, but nobody bleeds for the dancer
And it's on and on, on and on and on and on and on and on and on
They say that life's a carousel
Spinning fast, you've got to ride it well
The world is full of kings and queens
Who blind your eyes and steal your dreams
It's heaven and hell, oh well
And they'll tell you black is really white
The moon is just the sun at night
And when you walk in golden halls
You get to keep the gold that falls
It's heaven and hell, oh no
Fool, fool
You've got to bleed for the dancer
Fool, fool
Look for the answer
Fool, fool, fool
Tryharder62
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Since you asked so nicely and we seem to be onto the science aspect...
I note your very decent string of qualifications and respect your hard work. What science can't really teach us is how, despite showing how big the universe is, how long it has been since the big bang and how complex life earth has become in our eyes, we are a meaningless blip and of no significance.
Mankind has always ascribed himself far too much importance: insisting the sun rotated the earth, that the earth is flat, that if there were an omnipotent creature he must surely have an interest in us. It stems from a fear of the unknown.
When I hear 'I accept the universe has been around for squillions of years but how come evolution has made pretty flowers' I think contradiction. You are not grasping how long a billion years is or how big the observable universe is: neither can I tbh - it does my head in. What I don't do is to make the leap from 'it's too long/big/old for me to understand' but 'DNA and evolution are too perfect to have happened by accident' therefore 'God'. This is not logic, it is assumption - the same assumption that had the sun rotating the earth. Keep in mind that the Church wanted to burn people at the stake for scientific discoveries and that was not a squillion years ago - see how far we've come in five hundred years.
To say that, because you can't grasp the concept of time and evolution, therefore god exists is fine, but don't try to bully other people with your charmingly flawed human-being-ness. But that's why there is religion, because you are not alone and I'm glad you have friends who feel the same way, because we all need friends.
I can be you friend too, because one of the nice things about the evolution of our species is that we look out for each other and value their contributions, even if we might hold opposing views on some airey-fairy things that will never buy us our next meal.
I have a wicked carrot cake recipe... I could have a look at your Hawaian weiner but I don't eat much red meat, so I'm not making promises. Have a hug
Christianity teaches that we are meaningful and significant and are living for a specific purpose.
I think that man ascribes himself far too much importance too. I can't control anything, but I know millions of people who look for a power greater than themselves to help them... whatever that power may be. The bible is not a science book, it is a spiritual book. Do you know that not one place in the bible says that the earth moves around the sun? In fact Ecclesiastes 1:5 NIV says: The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises. What the bible does say many times in different verses is what is in Psalm 104:5: "Thou did fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be moved or shaken." That is true. God has laid out a perfect plan for us. Spiritually you can't get any more of a firm foundation to build on. It won't ever be changed or "moved".However, He allows us to build what we want.
Also the bible does not say that the earth is flat. What it does do is use Idioms. All languages have idioms. When we say we have “the best of both worlds,” we refer to enjoying “an ideal situation” and not “two worlds.”
I'm bullying people?
Believe me I know that I am flawed. I have airy-fairy things??...where? As to all the foolish things Christians have done in the name of Christ... I think Ghandi says it well....“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” We tend to do what some Christians commonly called majoring in minors. We pull the minor things out of the bible and fight for them without looking at the major one. Matthew 22:36-37 New International Version
36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”
37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.” (If you are not doing these then you should not move on to anything else.)
Ok on the heavenly things. Here it goes.
Hawaiian Appetizer wieners (Maybe you could use vegan sausage I don't know)
1 cup brown sugar packed
3Tbsp Flour
2tsp dry mustard
1 cup pineapple juice
1/2 cup brown(apple)vinegar
11/2 tsp soy sauce
2lbs cocktail wieners
Combine Ingredients and bring to a boil stirring constantly. Boil 1 min stirring constantly. Add cocktail wieners and cook for 5 minutes until heated through. Pour into slow cooker. Add pineapple chunks if desired. You can keep them warm in the slow cooker until company arrives.
We mostly use that recipe on new years eve. (NOT SUITABLE for DIABETICS)
I might be a little wicked if it means a great carrot cake recipe.
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.
Tryharder just served up the Seinfeld "Big" religion word "Salad" that's basically a story about nothing.
Straight forward teachings of science and morality by decent rational individuals is far more relevant to understanding and promoting human existence and coexistence.
Tryharder also voted for the traitor in chief TWICE, so it's probably a good idea to ignore anything she has to say about science or morality.
*nods*
Tryharder just served up the Seinfeld "Big" religion word "Salad" that's basically a story about nothing.
Straight forward teachings of science and morality by decent rational individuals is far more relevant to understanding and promoting human existence and coexistence.
Tryharder also voted for the traitor in chief TWICE, so it's probably a good idea to ignore anything she has to say about science or morality.
*nods*
Tryharder62
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Our minds can be divided up in many ways. Tryharder adheres to a Biblical Literalist tradition of Christianity and also says she is a 'biology girl' - a scientist. She also says she believes in Adaptation but not Evolution.
My observation is that all of us have two compartments in our brains. One compartment contains what we know, the other contains what we believe. I too have a training in Science, initially in Mathematics and Physics at Uni then in 5 years of post grad work in the utilization of Maths in genetics/drugs research.
Science is about observation, collection and experimentation to determine facts and the drawing of conclusions from them. Adaptation has nothing to do with science: it is an assertion - a belief, and is made without evidence. And any assertion made without evidence can be refuted without evidence.
Having said that, I am not going to argue the case for Evolution; I suggest that any responsible scientist/biologist whatever their current views should read "On the origin of Species" by Charles Darwin. Almost everybody has a view on Darwin but hardly anyone has read him - they all read the controversialists who either promoted or attacked his ideas. He is surprisingly easy to read, and rather than argue incessantly, he just piles fact upon fact, observation upon observation, hundreds and thousands of them. On the whole, he states his view, says there are the facts, make up your own mind.
TH, I particularly recommend the book to you as a biologist and to that young man heading off to Seminary. It's the "Know thine enemy " principle. The book is less than $ 20 from Amazon and at 480 pages easy to get through in 30 days.
One word of caution - Read the book before the introduction then the Introducers will not influence you.
Finally a bit of mischief that I could not resist. Only about 2% of the Worlds Christians reject Evolution and I checked to see what the other major monotheists thought. Muslim scholars, surprisingly perhaps, first started to develop ideas of Evolution as early as the 9th century - over 1000 years ago. Most of the major Islamic countries, for example, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, Indonesia, teach Evolution as a matter of course. However, there is a section of Islam also about 2% which rejects evolution entirely, in similar terms to the Biblical Literalists. This group is made up of the Wahabi sect which rules Saudi Arabia and their allies the, Taliban in Afghanistan, ISIS in Syria, and Al Quaida.
Strange bedfellows indeed.
My apologies to all. By saying I am a biology girl I did not mean I am a biologist. I love to look at biology and marvel at how these things work.
I was really floored by this...Science is about observation, collection and experimentation to determine facts and the drawing of conclusions from them. Adaptation has nothing to do with science: it is an assertion - a belief, and is made without evidence. And any assertion made without evidence can be refuted without evidence. Do you need me to send you some evidence of adaptation?
Wish I could get away with this. Any firm studies about the 2% deal to share.
I actually read "On the origin of species" by Darwin. I read it when someone challenged me to read it several years ago on lit. Is this the book you were talking about? It said 226 pages is why I ask.
Title: Know Thine Enemy
By: Dr. David Ukiwe
Format: Paperback
Number of Pages: 226
Vendor: Xulon Press
Publication Date: 2011
Tryharder62
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Because no complex molecules existed in the early period after the Big Bang. It took some time even for protons and neutrons to emerge.
Some of the great philosophers were atheists. Bertrand Russell was.
That is how we know it can't be true.
Tryharder62
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What about the Law of Thermodynamics?
Maybe If you find significance only in terms of the physical. With spirituality what you find is that there is more than the physical and that your choices matter for eternity.
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ishtat
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The True Believers
Come off it Hobbit: We all know that you are the most religious person on Lit. Every other Saturday afternoon at 3 'clock you turn up, or at least bow your head in solemn humility to the open air shrine at Old Trafford.
(for the unitiated it's open air because the demon Malcolm and his spawn have refused to fix the roof for 20 years)
Then right on the dot, the Lord of Old Trafford looks down as his son Ole leads his disciples into the arena. Cue the rapture, unstinting applause as the disciples in their "oh so cute" redshirts trot out to the middle.
Then the opposition appears, those nice Catholic boys from the sewer at Anfield. The true believers wail and knash their teeth in dismay; "Go home you scouse bastards," they cry, and a small bearded man is observed, on his knees giving thanks in expectation that one day - this day it will be a 6-0 result.
This good people of Lit is the religion of the True believers, and Hobbit is their Apostle.
Come off it Hobbit: We all know that you are the most religious person on Lit. Every other Saturday afternoon at 3 'clock you turn up, or at least bow your head in solemn humility to the open air shrine at Old Trafford.
(for the unitiated it's open air because the demon Malcolm and his spawn have refused to fix the roof for 20 years)
Then right on the dot, the Lord of Old Trafford looks down as his son Ole leads his disciples into the arena. Cue the rapture, unstinting applause as the disciples in their "oh so cute" redshirts trot out to the middle.
Then the opposition appears, those nice Catholic boys from the sewer at Anfield. The true believers wail and knash their teeth in dismay; "Go home you scouse bastards," they cry, and a small bearded man is observed, on his knees giving thanks in expectation that one day - this day it will be a 6-0 result.
This good people of Lit is the religion of the True believers, and Hobbit is their Apostle.
Rollinbones
Dirty Old Bastard
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/logs on to porn site.
/comments on religious thread
/lols...
Take whatever drug you need to make sense of this whacked out place in space and time. Just don't try pushing it on me.
Religion is the opiate that they feed the masses to keep them feeling guilty and playing by some rules.
Anarchy? Just not as saleable. Not a marketable franchise for anyone with any capitalist ambitions to use as a bridle.
My drug of choice these days is reality. The moments i spend with people and pets. The time i spend on my bikes. Playing with guns. My little farmlet. Fantasy is big and complex and stressful. But the reality is simple and heady with involvement.
Just be kind to each other for fucks sake. And fuck motherfuckers up. Simple really.
Who needs a flying spaghetti monster to tell them how not to be a cunt.
Boomshanka wierdos.
/comments on religious thread
/lols...
Take whatever drug you need to make sense of this whacked out place in space and time. Just don't try pushing it on me.
Religion is the opiate that they feed the masses to keep them feeling guilty and playing by some rules.
Anarchy? Just not as saleable. Not a marketable franchise for anyone with any capitalist ambitions to use as a bridle.
My drug of choice these days is reality. The moments i spend with people and pets. The time i spend on my bikes. Playing with guns. My little farmlet. Fantasy is big and complex and stressful. But the reality is simple and heady with involvement.
Just be kind to each other for fucks sake. And fuck motherfuckers up. Simple really.
Who needs a flying spaghetti monster to tell them how not to be a cunt.
Boomshanka wierdos.
I expect those were in force from the beginning.
That would be a really shitty way to run a universe!
MartinHeidegger
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Huh? Both theoretical and observational cosmology point to a universe that's been always expanding since the big bang.
They don't prohibit the formation of complex molecules.
There have been plenty of great atheistic, polytheistic, and deistic philosophers. And plenty of great theistic philosophers we'd regard as obviously wrong about some things.
Sean
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Which one, there are four.
jaF0
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More human terms trying to explain things to other humans.
Humans need to understand how insignificant they are and that there are things they will never comprehend.
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