Committed couples who decided to live with sexual problems.

[freddyandeddy]

Cat,

It's not that we can't open up to another's point of view. What we're saying is that we've BEEN there and that YOU should acknowledge that living year after year with sexual dysfunction (which is what this topic is about) is not healthy. Just be FRIENDS and find someone who IS compatible sexually. As for real issues, there have been plenty and SextoyJenne is a perfect example. Look at what she's saying; 8 years of sexual dysfunction! And in the end she ended up divorced anyway. It's living a lie, as Jenn put it, and humanity should come to grips with the fact that a lifelong commitment is not for everyone. The odds are stacked against us from the beginning and so it is much better to have as many things going FOR us than having to suffer through crisis after crisis having to do with sex. Or just plain "settling" for things and toughing it out. Have the maturity to move on and find the "right" partner who can fulfill you sexually AND otherwise.

 

[Spenser41]

Re: Re: Sad

Thank you Spenser! I believe I mentioned that once before also. I really hate to think that people are so cold in this world they can't be open enough to look at another persons point of view. So if some of us are more dedicated to their spouse, come what may or may not, it still ends up being the decision of the 2 people involved and it still comes back to communication. Now I think I'll just lurk for awhile and see if things calm down any.

Thanks Cat, now if some people would just like to post their problems and how they have dealt with it or suggestions, that would be wonderful.

 

[freddyandeddy]

Crap, I put this in another thread by mistake! Oh well, here goes; this is a true and ongoing situation:

My wife and I have some good friends (the wife is actually a co-worker of hers) who've been married for about 8 years. They are Indian (from India) and have two young kids. Confiding in my wife (Eddy), the woman told her she has only had sex about 20 times in their 8 years together. They never hold hands, he shows no interest in her physically (she is gorgeous, incidentally), and they now sleep in separate bedrooms. He is completely alright with it and has refused to see a professional to find out if there's a medical reason or something like it. This lack of intimacy has caused her to grow so resentful that she now actually HATES him. To see them together is actually painful for all of us as they bicker openly and show disdain for eachother freely. Why doesn't she just leave? Ah, now here's an interesting one; she is from a very prominent family in India and is afraid of "losing face" if she gets a divorce or leaves him.

Comments or advice?

 

[catsr2wild]

Cat,

It's not that we can't open up to another's point of view. What we're saying is that we've BEEN there and that YOU should acknowledge that living year after year with sexual dysfunction (which is what this topic is about) is not healthy. Just be FRIENDS and find someone who IS compatible sexually. As for real issues, there have been plenty and SextoyJenne is a perfect example. Look at what she's saying; 8 years of sexual dysfunction! And in the end she ended up divorced anyway. It's living a lie, as Jenn put it, and humanity should come to grips with the fact that a lifelong commitment is not for everyone. The odds are stacked against us from the beginning and so it is much better to have as many things going FOR us than having to suffer through crisis after crisis having to do with sex. Or just plain "settling" for things and toughing it out. Have the maturity to move on and find the "right" partner who can fulfill you sexually AND otherwise.

I've been there too, on both sides of the fence. I'm not saying that sex isn't important it is but to me there are other things that are more important just for my emotional and mental well being.

 

[CelticFrog]

Re: Re: Re: Sad

Thanks Cat, now if some people would just like to post their problems and how they have dealt with it or suggestions, that would be wonderful.

The amazing thing is that ABN_Ranger and I have a lot to say because we've been through a rough period like that... see the beginning of this thread for a basic rundown of that story.

We have come through it on the other side for the better, and have been perfectly willing to explain HOW we managed that, until it was found necessary by someone to advise cutting losses and getting out.

I thought this thread was about decisions couples made. And what they did about those decisions. It is my understanding that once a couple has come to this decision (like ReadyOne said, after all other outlets have been exhausted), that communication has been achieved and the couple would like to stay together because they at least enjoy some form of physical intimacy, be it as little as a hug or something. Sexual problems don't always mean that there is NO physicality whatsoever.

What is your personal knowledge of coping methods?

Well, ReadyOne, as I don't believe that leaving is in fact a coping method but a copout method (do understand before you flame that I AM talking about committed couples who do indeed still love each other as I noted in the previous paragraph), then my personal opinion would turn toward toys.
James posted an inspiring story about a couple. That there is another coping method.
If the love is no longer there, then it becomes a different case.
However, that's not what this thread was posted for.
I would hate to think that my grandparents would get a divorce after almost 66 years of marriage because my grandmother can't really handle sex anymore.

SexToyJenn, what I got from your post was that in your sexless marriage, there was also a lack of communication (that encouraged the lack of sex) that contributed to the dissolution.
You were lacking a lot more than sex... you were missing quality time.

Where I disagree with so many people here, and also don't think some stories are really helping this particular thread is this:

So many stories that have come up here have talked about how this and that AND the sex was bad. Well, what if everything else is fine? Seriously! What if you still have a bunch in common, you still love sleeping next to this person every night, you still enjoy spending tons of time with them, you still enjoy being married to them, and the sex has been flushed down the toilet? You've talked about it with each other, cried about it with each other, and decided that there's going to have to be a different solution than just celibacy. You have great memories with this person and WANT TO MAKE MORE. But something is wrong, it can't be figured out medically (or at least without way too much out of pocket expense), and now you're at a standstill.

Of COURSE there will be a point at which one or both partners wonder what would have happened if they had moved on instead of pursuing a relationship with each other. But that's part of a healthy relationship, believe it or not.

As I said in the very first reply to this thread, no one can speak for another's experience. Something like this can have NO generalizations. Perhaps ReadyOne is or knows someone who is getting to this point in their relationship. Cutting out is an obvious option. But if the couple in question does NOT want to do that, then they will look for other options, methods of coping, in order to be able to preserve an otherwise excellent relationship.

This is where the true (IMO) meat of the thread is.

Sex is an issue for them, but for whatever reason, they have decided the issue won't be a reason for them to break up. Instead, they are (trying to) find some way to cope.

Okay, so we have established that the couple does NOT want to end their union. So let's cut the 'cut loose' crap, and actually try to come up with real help.

There are ways to cope. Truly, there are. Couples have done it and maintained healthy, even HAPPY relationships for a long long time. So something has to change -- okay, duh. People change. But there is nothing to say that changing will ALWAYS result in the couple moving apart. Sometimes change is for the better of a relationship. And that is the change we're looking for in this thread.

Having written a novel, I concede the floor to the advice and experiences of people in this situation.

My three.
Ang

 

[catsr2wild]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sad

The amazing thing is that ABN_Ranger and I have a lot to say because we've been through a rough period like that... see the beginning of this thread for a basic rundown of that story.

We have come through it on the other side for the better, and have been perfectly willing to explain HOW we managed that, until it was found necessary by someone to advise cutting losses and getting out.

I thought this thread was about decisions couples made. And what they did about those decisions. It is my understanding that once a couple has come to this decision (like ReadyOne said, after all other outlets have been exhausted), that communication has been achieved and the couple would like to stay together because they at least enjoy some form of physical intimacy, be it as little as a hug or something. Sexual problems don't always mean that there is NO physicality whatsoever.


Well, ReadyOne, as I don't believe that leaving is in fact a coping method but a copout method (do understand before you flame that I AM talking about committed couples who do indeed still love each other as I noted in the previous paragraph), then my personal opinion would turn toward toys.
James posted an inspiring story about a couple. That there is another coping method.
If the love is no longer there, then it becomes a different case.
However, that's not what this thread was posted for.
I would hate to think that my grandparents would get a divorce after almost 66 years of marriage because my grandmother can't really handle sex anymore.

SexToyJenn, what I got from your post was that in your sexless marriage, there was also a lack of communication (that encouraged the lack of sex) that contributed to the dissolution.
You were lacking a lot more than sex... you were missing quality time.

Where I disagree with so many people here, and also don't think some stories are really helping this particular thread is this:

So many stories that have come up here have talked about how this and that AND the sex was bad. Well, what if everything else is fine? Seriously! What if you still have a bunch in common, you still love sleeping next to this person every night, you still enjoy spending tons of time with them, you still enjoy being married to them, and the sex has been flushed down the toilet? You've talked about it with each other, cried about it with each other, and decided that there's going to have to be a different solution than just celibacy. You have great memories with this person and WANT TO MAKE MORE. But something is wrong, it can't be figured out medically (or at least without way too much out of pocket expense), and now you're at a standstill.

Of COURSE there will be a point at which one or both partners wonder what would have happened if they had moved on instead of pursuing a relationship with each other. But that's part of a healthy relationship, believe it or not.

As I said in the very first reply to this thread, no one can speak for another's experience. Something like this can have NO generalizations. Perhaps ReadyOne is or knows someone who is getting to this point in their relationship. Cutting out is an obvious option. But if the couple in question does NOT want to do that, then they will look for other options, methods of coping, in order to be able to preserve an otherwise excellent relationship.

This is where the true (IMO) meat of the thread is.

Okay, so we have established that the couple does NOT want to end their union. So let's cut the 'cut loose' crap, and actually try to come up with real help.

There are ways to cope. Truly, there are. Couples have done it and maintained healthy, even HAPPY relationships for a long long time. So something has to change -- okay, duh. People change. But there is nothing to say that changing will ALWAYS result in the couple moving apart. Sometimes change is for the better of a relationship. And that is the change we're looking for in this thread.

Having written a novel, I concede the floor to the advice and experiences of people in this situation.

My three.
Ang

Celtic, don't take this the wrong way but I think I'm in love with you....thank you.

 

[Bobmi357]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sad

Where I disagree with so many people here, and also don't think some stories are really helping this particular thread is this:

So many stories that have come up here have talked about how this and that AND the sex was bad. Well, what if everything else is fine? Seriously! What if you still have a bunch in common, you still love sleeping next to this person every night, you still enjoy spending tons of time with them, you still enjoy being married to them, and the sex has been flushed down the toilet? You've talked about it with each other, cried about it with each other, and decided that there's going to have to be a different solution than just celibacy. You have great memories with this person and WANT TO MAKE MORE. But something is wrong, it can't be figured out medically (or at least without way too much out of pocket expense), and now you're at a standstill.

This is where I think things start to fall apart. For whatever reason, if sex suddenly stops in a relationship and both partners allow it without trying to find out why and do something about it, then there are far more serious issues in the relationship than just a lack of nookie.

Lets assume two people are married and the sex is fine for both of them, be it several times a day, or several times a week. Then all of a sudden for whatever nonmedical reason you want to pick, one of them decides that they aren't interested in sex anymore. The other partner, opts to go along with this decision maybe because they don't want to interject any problems into the relationship, or perhaps because they figure this is just a phase the other one is going through. One decides that sex is uninteresting and the other goes along with it.

Now unless we're talking about the male and female versions of Mother Teresa here, one of them probably still wants sex, but has decided to go along for the ride anyway figuring things will eventually get better.

WRONG MOVE....

Things won't get better as long as both partners are not talking with each other.

Look at what has happened. One partner has demonstrated a clear lack of respect for the other and opted to seize control of their sex life without bothering to either consult or forewarn the other partner. In doing so, by putting their desires on hold, they seem to assume they can do so to their partner as well. Of the partner still desiring sex but not having any, their lack of trying to bring this topic to the table is a tacit approval of the situation.

As I see it, and I know others here will disagree with me, but this relationship has become fundamentally flawed and damaged. Perhaps both partners like it that way, but the fact remains that if you can't talk to your own partner about your sexual desires and needs, then you've opened the door for a whole host of other issues to eventually come up.

If you assume you have two people whom are relatively asexual, then this probably won't be an issue for them and they can go about their lives blissfully in "love" and unaware, or not caring about what they are missing. But we all know that most of us aren't asexual. We wouldn't be on a board, or site like this if we were. Most people aren't asexual, although a lot of us have gone long periods without the initmacy and emotional tenderness that sex invokes in us.

So the simple fact is, when two people have a relationship that radically alters to exclude sex, and both partners are fairly normal people. They reached a fork in the road of their relationship. They can either work together to recognize this is a problem and resolve it together, or they can take a walk down the road to relationship oblivion.

Relationships aren't one sided. I rely on my wife for a lot of things, and hopefully she relies on me as well. She is my friend, my lover. She is also a well from which I can draw strength as well as other key elements which impact on my own self esteem. Her desire to get a hug from me serves to re-enforce my desire to hug her. Her desire to walk the mall holding my hand re-enforces my desire to hold her hand. Her desire to want me sexually not only re-enforces my desire to want her, but also enhances my own self-esteem (and hopefully hers as well).

Take that out of the relationship equation and I believe the relationship will suffer because of it.

Relationships don't come to an end because of one single major issue. Instead the problems usually start small and escalate into major issues. If you can catch the minor issues before they become major ones, you can head off relationship problems. Lack of sex can be a minor issue going on only so long before either one partner brings it to the table to thrash it out, or lets it grow into a major one.

Thats how I see it, two normal people in a relationship cannot go without sex without working out a compromise that is acceptable to both of them. If they don't try to work out a compromise, the relationship will ultimately fail.

Couples that you know that have an asexual relationship have either worked it out to their mutual satisfaction, or like so many other couples are busy concealing their pain outwardly until the divorce finally happens.

 

[sheath]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sad

Celtic, don't take this the wrong way but I think I'm in love with you....thank you.

I second that. Very well put, Ang.

S.

 

[freddyandeddy]

I must concur with Bob and take the following quote:

Well, what if everything else is fine? Seriously! What if you still have a bunch in common, you still love sleeping next to this person every night, you still enjoy spending tons of time with them, you still enjoy being married to them, and the sex has been flushed down the toilet? You've talked about it with each other, cried about it with each other, and decided that there's going to have to be a different solution than just celibacy. You have great memories with this person and WANT TO MAKE MORE. But something is wrong, it can't be figured out medically (or at least without way too much out of pocket expense), and now you're at a standstill.

Unfortunately, everything else is not fine. What is flawed with your argument is that you think a couple should "cope" to use your word and continue to carry on a marriage without sex. I'd like to use your grandparents as an example. You say you'd hate to see them divorce after 66 years of marriage because she can't handle sex anymore. Why? If this is causing them to be miserable as a couple, would you rather they go on being miserable for another 66 years? Would you want to go on with someone - even after 66 years - who would not want you physically?

I guess my point is that there is no point to this thread. The topic itself is flawed, because we're talking about "coping," as opposed to "fixing" the underlying problems. If the whole thing is about "coping," then getting out is the best course. As I've said, you can still be great FRIENDS.

 

[WarOfTheRoses]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sad

Couples that you know that have an asexual relationship have either worked it out to their mutual satisfaction, or like so many other couples are busy concealing their pain outwardly until the divorce finally happens.

I think there are more couples living in an asexual relationship than many realise.

Habit, duty and the guilt thing keep more couples together than sex and intimacy.

 

[CelticFrog]

I guess my point is that there is no point to this thread. The topic itself is flawed, because we're talking about "coping," as opposed to "fixing" the underlying problems. If the whole thing is about "coping," then getting out is the best course. As I've said, you can still be great FRIENDS.

If you believe there is no point to this thread, then please accept my invitation to no longer post to it. For that matter, I would invite you, Bobmi, to do the same.

ReadyOne, because I believe no thread in which an honest question has been posed is pointless, I would like to extend to YOU an invitation to retake your thread. Since the points which I tried to make very clear were ignored in the grand scheme of reading comprehension, I will be as blunt as possible:

If you are going through this, I believe there are definitely ways of living with the issues at hand if the sex is the only thing missing (which I believe is possible). I would like to see the many many people here who have actually BEEN through this and come out the other side still together post.

My three.
Ang

 

[warrior queen]

i would LOVE to be able to post something to say that i survived when it happened to me.
but the truth is, in both long-term relationships that i have been in, problems that started out as being about lack of sex, rapidly escalated to show that there were more serious underlying issues that CAUSED the sexual drought -
and both relationships did not survive.

while i agree that couples can, and do, survive sexless unions, i would hazard a guess and say that might be because both partners recognise ALL the issues that have led them to that point, in time to work on reversing them.
sadly though, more couples fail, than succeed.

 

[CelticFrog]

while i agree that couples can, and do, survive sexless unions, i would hazard a guess and say that might be because both partners recognise ALL the issues that have led them to that point, in time to work on reversing them.
sadly though, more couples fail, than succeed.

Good point oh wondrous one...

I guess that's why I don't think this thread is pointless. If we can help more couples succeed than fail, then it's totally worth it.

Ang

 

[warrior queen]

Good point oh wondrous one...

I guess that's why I don't think this thread is pointless. If we can help more couples succeed than fail, then it's totally worth it.

Ang

agreed. absolutely.

*sigh* sometimes i wish i'd had access to something like this BEFORE.....
but i guess, because in both cases, my exes denied point blank that there even were any underlying issues and didn't want to put in the effort, i was doomed to my failed relationships anyway.

NEXT TIME - and i'm sure there will be one, but not for a long while - i am going to be extremely careful to make sure i find a communicator who doesn't mind meeting me halfway.

 

[WarOfTheRoses]

On reading ReadyOne's initial post again it appears the bulk of replies have been geared towards curing what is seen as an ailing relationship ie: a basically sexless one.

I understood his question to be aimed more at coping with a relationship which was pretty much devoid of sex , and, had been that way for many years.

 

[Bobmi357]

If you believe there is no point to this thread, then please accept my invitation to no longer post to it. For that matter, I would invite you, Bobmi, to do the same.

I never said this thread was pointless and I'll ask anyone that thought I said it was to go back and reread my posts.

My comment was that a relationship that failed to work on the issue was seriously flawed. The point is a simple one, you either recognize it as a problem and deal with it as a team, or fold up the tent and call it quits. If you can't work together to resolve this issue then you'll have problems working together to resolve other issues.

People cope, one way or another, but the only way a relationship can hold together is if they cope as a unit. You cannot have one person coping while another is seething with pain and anger.

How they cope is unique to each couple, but as long as they do it together, the odds are in favor of their relationship surviving. Thriving? Maybe, but it should weather the storm.

 

[Bobmi357]

On reading ReadyOne's initial post again it appears the bulk of replies have been geared towards curing what is seen as an ailing relationship ie: a basically sexless one.

I understood his question to be aimed more at coping with a relationship which was pretty much devoid of sex , and, had been that way for many years.

cope

\Cope\, v. i.

1. To exchange or barter. [Obs.] --Spenser.

2. To encounter; to meet; to have to do with.

Horatio, thou art e'en as just a man As e'er my conversation coped withal. --Shak.

3. To enter into or maintain a hostile contest; to struggle; to combat; especially, to strive or contend on equal terms or with success; to match; to equal; -- usually followed by with.

Host coped with host, dire was the din of war. --Philips.

Their generals have not been able to cope with the troops of Athens. --Addison.

Coping with the problem.

You can;

1) Attempt to fix the problem by talking to your partner and trying to get things back onto a mutually acceptable level.

2) You can go outside your relationship to find whatever it is you think you need.

3) You can end the relationship entirely and hope you can find what you need from another person.

4) You can do nothing and possibly end up miserable and bitter about your relationship. Or maybe you will learn to live with it, depends on the person I reckon.

If you really care anything about your partner, then you'll pick option A. Perhaps you won't suceed, but at least you'll have tried. This isn't to say that you'll spend 10 years in the effort. Sooner or later even the most patient people will give up if no progress is made. But giving up, or not at least trying option one limits you to 2,3 and 4.

 

[WarOfTheRoses]

Thanks for the 'lesson' Bobmi.

I'll put $10 on No.4 to win, with $5 on No.2 to run a close second.

 

[freddyandeddy]

When I say "pointless," I mean that one should seek a CURE rather than COPING. Alcoholics who "cope" with alcohoism destroy themselves and everything around them. Alcoholics who CURE themselves (as in meaning they quit drinking entirely) have a shot at a normal and healthy life. I again offer the example from before of our Indian friends trapped in a passionless/sexless marriage who "cope" with their situation as best they can. She sleeps in a separate bedroom, spends as little time with him as possible, and occupies herself with friends and outside interests. This is "coping," and while he is fine with all of this, she is 100% miserable. I recommend the CURE, which is to divorce this loser, allow time to work in her favor with her family (and if they still won't accept her decision, live with it), and find a suitable mate who will at least deliver more than what she's got now.

 

[JoeJesus]

i would LOVE to be able to post something to say that i survived when it happened to me.
but the truth is, in both long-term relationships that i have been in, problems that started out as being about lack of sex, rapidly escalated to show that there were more serious underlying issues that CAUSED the sexual drought -
and both relationships did not survive.

while i agree that couples can, and do, survive sexless unions, i would hazard a guess and say that might be because both partners recognise ALL the issues that have led them to that point, in time to work on reversing them.
sadly though, more couples fail, than succeed.

There are other ways to look at it. First, the lack of sex could be a contributing factor in making those underlying issues seem to be more important than they are, rather than the reverse. In my experience, lack of sex ramps up everything. Little things that don't bother you normally become huge, and regular problems turn into cause for huge screaming fights.

Second, I think some people survive sexless unions because of comfort level and the cause for the lack of sex. If you've been together for a long time, have merged families, have kids, and get along in other ways, you might overlook this one big problem. At least overlook it enough to stay together. Or if there are solid medical reasons for the lack of sex, it's easier to be understanding.

Those situations seem fairly different to what is being discussed here, though. It's hard to come up with hard and fast rules for what works and what doesn't. If there are extenuating factors, I can see room for optimism. If not, if it's just a simple matter of "I want it/he or she doesn't," then I think the relationship is a ticking time bomb unless someone goes through a sea change.

 

[Zergplex]

Zergplex Speaks

Bravo! Despite what a few people said on this thread, I think that if even one person was helped by your stories then this was a worthwhile thread. I think all the arguements in this thread are basically built around one thing, you all have your own definition of what marriage is to you. To generalize that 'to be married you must have this, this, and this' is a horrible thing. Maybe to some people sex isn't as important to their marriage as to others, and thats for them to decide. Saying that sex is nessisary in a relationship may be true for you, but not to others. It all comes back to what marriage means to you and what you are personally looking for.

Honestly I don't see sex as that important a thing in either relationships or marriage, on the other hand I find intimicy is very important. It's just that you can find intimicy in more then just sex. To some people, including me, sometimes just being held by your mate is enough. Sexual things are good, but give me a nice snuggle with my g/f in front of a tv to make me a happy guy.

Boy disjointed thoughts suck. ^_^()

-Zergplex

PS - Before I get flamed I am not denying that you definatly CAN find intimicy in sex, I am just staing that if you can't have sex you can still find the intimicy you need in other ways.

 

[catsr2wild]

Re: Zergplex Speaks

Bravo! Despite what a few people said on this thread, I think that if even one person was helped by your stories then this was a worthwhile thread. I think all the arguements in this thread are basically built around one thing, you all have your own definition of what marriage is to you. To generalize that 'to be married you must have this, this, and this' is a horrible thing. Maybe to some people sex isn't as important to their marriage as to others, and thats for them to decide. Saying that sex is nessisary in a relationship may be true for you, but not to others. It all comes back to what marriage means to you and what you are personally looking for.

Honestly I don't see sex as that important a thing in either relationships or marriage, on the other hand I find intimicy is very important. It's just that you can find intimicy in more then just sex. To some people, including me, sometimes just being held by your mate is enough. Sexual things are good, but give me a nice snuggle with my g/f in front of a tv to make me a happy guy.

Boy disjointed thoughts suck. ^_^()

-Zergplex

PS - Before I get flamed I am not denying that you definatly CAN find intimicy in sex, I am just staing that if you can't have sex you can still find the intimicy you need in other ways.

 

[freddyandeddy]

Flamed? You should be applauded. You are far more evolved than I. I'd much rather have a good romp with my sexy wife than snuggle in front of the TV. Actually, I'd like to snuggle in front of the TV, have hot sex, then snuggle some more.

Now, we'd like to hear from your g/f...

 

[ReadyOne]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Sad

{snip}
Having written a novel, I concede the floor to the advice and experiences of people in this situation.

My three.
Ang

Very good!

Thank you for reading and understanding. I hope your words can get us back on track!

 

[ReadyOne]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Sad

This is where I think things start to fall apart. For whatever reason, if sex suddenly stops in a relationship and both partners allow it without trying to find out why and do something about it, then there are far more serious issues in the relationship than just a lack of nookie.
{snip}

Please don't take this wrong, Bobmi357, my words are not personal here. I'm just trying to get the conversation recentered.

Your comments here and in other threads have had a common theme that sex is a requirement for a good marriage.

Personally, entering into a marriage with the probability that sex won't be what is expected/needed is a real mistake. Deliberately doing so after weighing all things and getting good advice, takes courage and willingness to accept that you made your bed and now you are going to sleep in it.

But your repeated theme is not what the discussion here was intended to be about. Ang's post just before yours talked (again) about the conditions we're assuming for this discussion. Your words, valid as they may be, don't relate to these assumptions.

You comments have often been keen and insightful. Perhaps you might change the parameters to match those of this thread and rework the problem. You have a fine and creative mind that could help us address the subject. Would you please speak to the question that started the thread?