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Common Core Subtraction

Oh goodie, we can piss and moan about math and call it "thinking". It's all just glorified counting.


I worked with a kid last year who was having trouble with algebra. After a couple of sessions, it was apparent her troubles stemmed from an inability to do simple arithmetic. She had never memorized her multiplication tables, so simple multiplication/division were impossible without a calculator. I was glad I was wearing my hair short so's I wouldn't tear it all the fuck out.


So I told her the story about how my algebraic skills improved when I practiced my arithmetic skillz. It may have sunk in, and it may not have.


Even lawyers can learn to divide by 3, and I have never seen a more arithmetically bereft class of people ever.
 
Memorization?

MEMORIZATION???

What is this? LEAVE IT TO BEAVER? 1956???

We have iPhones and calculators, we've evolved and left you dinosaurs behind.
 
sigh said:
Partial credit has long been a part of grading in both science and math, right up through college in even the most demanding fields. If you demonstrate an understanding of the process, that should be worth something. And how many times have students been penalized for getting the right answer, but not showing their work? It's long been accepted that you must show you understand the process. There's nothing new about that part of it at all.

Of course, once real life arrives, it's only the right answer that counts, and sometimes the wrong answer that kills. That's why I think it's also vital to teach kids how to estimate, so they'll know right away if their answer is way off. After a while you can do that subconsciously and just know when your answer can't be right. They never stressed estimation nearly enough when I was in school. That's something I taught myself.

As for the demonstrated problem in the OP, it wasn't intuitive to me. I found it difficult to understand the directions, though once I got it, it was okay. But I can't imagine doing math that way other than as an interesting game, though maybe that's just because I'm too ingrained in another method. They taught my kid a way of doing basic math by somehow using the knuckles of one hand and the fingertips of the other. That's not intuitive to me either, but he's a whiz at it. It's like some kind of unholy morphing of sign language and abacus, as best I can tell, and he never uses paper.
Click to expand...

In grad school I discovered that bad arithmetic occasionally discredited seminal research used by everyone. That is, the wrong addition product caused results to lose statistical significance. I checked their figgers!

In the real world I have literally modified the insides of a nuclear reactor then made drawings from the modification for submission to the Feds for approval to do the work.
 
Ishmael said:
Sweetie, international testing shows that the US is weak in math and science. Obviously no one believes that to be a harbinger of good things to come. But this whole new technique of teaching math seems to me to be nothing more than "new math", round two.

Is this method being used by any of the nations that are out performing us? As far as I've been able to research they most decidedly are not!!!! OK, we can assume that this is a profound leap forward, but we've heard that song and dance before. Why hasn't this methodology been approached like any other scientific experiment? A study group and a control group to determine whether this methodology truly is the panacea its being held out to be? Again, to my knowledge this is NOT the case. It is the case of an attempt to use the entire school age population of the nation as lab rats to test an unproven methodology. And if it doesn't work an entire generation of school children is lost.

I'd like to see some empirical results BEFORE this is foisted on an entire generation of students.

Ishmael
Click to expand...

Yep, we're weak at math as was taught by the old method. Those empirical results are in, and have been in for a long time. And if we keep doing the same, we can hardly expect different results. Something must change, but honestly, I don't know enough about common core to judge if it's the thing to change to or not. Query made an interesting point in another thread about gun control when responding to a Canadian poster. He said that if we were to take inner city gun violence out of American statistics, we would have the same gun violence stats as Canada. If we took inner city schools out of American education stats, would we get the same results? Do they keep those sorts of stats? If that turns out to be true, maybe we should be trying to fix our cities instead of our schools.

I don't see this new method of subtraction as anything great, by the way. Using the old method, I had to write down numbers in a column and follow a memorized prescribed method for arriving at the answer, and could get some credit if I got the answer wrong but followed the correct path. Using this new method, I have to write down numbers in a column and follow a memorized prescribed method for arriving at the answer, and can get some credit if I get the answer wrong but follow the correct path. It's just different (which is why I suspect many parents don't like it because they have to learn it too if they want to help their kids). I don't find it any better or worse. Both methods clearly work, though neither is a great example of teaching critical thinking as far as I can see.
 
They don't work when you spend one day on the method and every day that follows on a calculator...
 
sigh said:
Yep, we're weak at math as was taught by the old method. Those empirical results are in, and have been in for a long time. And if we keep doing the same, we can hardly expect different results. Something must change, but honestly, I don't know enough about common core to judge if it's the thing to change to or not. Query made an interesting point in another thread about gun control when responding to a Canadian poster. He said that if we were to take inner city gun violence out of American statistics, we would have the same gun violence stats as Canada. If we took inner city schools out of American education stats, would we get the same results? Do they keep those sorts of stats? If that turns out to be true, maybe we should be trying to fix our cities instead of our schools.
Click to expand...

The Wingnuts are forever slicing and dicing and cherry picking data to make results more favorable to their preconceived biases. If you leave out the votes of "undesirables" (minorities, non-English speakers and single women aka "sluts") then Romney is president! Unfortunately for them, and us, we have to look at results in the aggregate.

sigh said:
I don't see this new method of subtraction as anything great, by the way. Using the old method, I had to write down numbers in a column and follow a memorized prescribed method for arriving at the answer, and could get some credit if I got the answer wrong but followed the correct path. Using this new method, I have to write down numbers in a column and follow a memorized prescribed method for arriving at the answer, and can get some credit if I get the answer wrong but follow the correct path. It's just different (which is why I suspect many parents don't like it because they have to learn it too if they want to help their kids). I don't find it any better or worse. Both methods clearly work, though neither is a great example of teaching critical thinking as far as I can see.
Click to expand...

It's a change in the traditional way of doing things. Conservative principles, by definition, are fiercely resistant to change, unless there is a direct benefit to white males. That's why we see such garment-rending over new ways to teach subtraction while viagara was embraced as a medical breakthrough.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
In grad school I discovered that bad arithmetic occasionally discredited seminal research used by everyone. That is, the wrong addition product caused results to lose statistical significance. I checked their figgers!

In the real world I have literally modified the insides of a nuclear reactor then made drawings from the modification for submission to the Feds for approval to do the work.
Click to expand...

In my line of work if you get the answer wrong, somebody dies. And yeah, I've seen that happen. In fields where math must ALWAYS be done correctly, partial credit should be given in school only up to a certain point. In the classroom, we almost always got partial credit but when it came time for our clinicals, there was either right or wrong, and the doc running rounds didn't care how you came up with the answer, only that you did it fast and that the answer was right. Every time. Without fail.
 
sigh said:
In my line of work if you get the answer wrong, somebody dies. And yeah, I've seen that happen. In fields where math must ALWAYS be done correctly, partial credit should be given in school only up to a certain point. In the classroom, we almost always got partial credit but when it came time for our clinicals, there was either right or wrong, and the doc running rounds didn't care how you came up with the answer, only that you did it fast and that the answer was right. Every time. Without fail.
Click to expand...

You must be in the medical field. We had a woman in my neighborhood who was a charge nurse in a hospital. Absolutely sterling resume, 30 years experience. One time...Once!...she mis-read a medication order and dosed a geriatric patient with 10X the dosage prescribed. Patient almost died. Nurse neighbor kept her license but had to sign a consent decree stating she wouldn't administer prescription drugs for five years.
 
I told Junior that there is no excuse for bad arithmetic and wrong algebra - answers which are easily checked.


A 99 is a C-, and 98 is an F.


Wrong construction bids because of bad math result in lost job or bankruptcy, neither of which is desirable.
 
sigh said:
True. Is that part of common core?
Click to expand...

I'm living Common Core every single fucking day of my life.

My wife has thrown up her hands and walked away in complete frustration.

It is an insane curriculum with the attention-span of a dedicated MTV and uT00b fan.
 
BobDownSouth said:
You must be in the medical field. We had a woman in my neighborhood who was a charge nurse in a hospital. Absolutely sterling resume, 30 years experience. One time...Once!...she mis-read a medication order and dosed a geriatric patient with 10X the dosage prescribed. Patient almost died. Nurse neighbor kept her license but had to sign a consent decree stating she wouldn't administer prescription drugs for five years.
Click to expand...

She's a CNA. Glorified ass wiper.
 
sigh said:
Yep, we're weak at math as was taught by the old method. Those empirical results are in, and have been in for a long time. And if we keep doing the same, we can hardly expect different results. Something must change, but honestly, I don't know enough about common core to judge if it's the thing to change to or not. Query made an interesting point in another thread about gun control when responding to a Canadian poster. He said that if we were to take inner city gun violence out of American statistics, we would have the same gun violence stats as Canada. If we took inner city schools out of American education stats, would we get the same results? Do they keep those sorts of stats? If that turns out to be true, maybe we should be trying to fix our cities instead of our schools.

I don't see this new method of subtraction as anything great, by the way. Using the old method, I had to write down numbers in a column and follow a memorized prescribed method for arriving at the answer, and could get some credit if I got the answer wrong but followed the correct path. Using this new method, I have to write down numbers in a column and follow a memorized prescribed method for arriving at the answer, and can get some credit if I get the answer wrong but follow the correct path. It's just different (which is why I suspect many parents don't like it because they have to learn it too if they want to help their kids). I don't find it any better or worse. Both methods clearly work, though neither is a great example of teaching critical thinking as far as I can see.
Click to expand...

Re. your first paragraph. Spot on regarding the inner city schools, and some other specific situations such as reservation schools. So the observation of what to fix is a legitimate question. Further, while it's easy to say that the traditional methodology is failing it avoids my point. And that being that before we jump ship wouldn't it make sense to at least test the new methodology in a controlled experiment?

It's awkward and as you previously posted, real life gives you no credit for arriving at the wrong answer the right way.

Formal proof of 1+1=2

Ishmael
 
BobDownSouth said:
The Wingnuts are forever slicing and dicing and cherry picking data to make results more favorable to their preconceived biases. If you leave out the votes of "undesirables" (minorities, non-English speakers and single women aka "sluts") then Romney is president! Unfortunately for them, and us, we have to look at results in the aggregate.
Click to expand...

We should look at results in the aggregate. I agree. But then we should also break them down to find out where the weakness lies, so we can focus on what really needs to be fixed.

BobDownSouth said:
It's a change in the traditional way of doing things. Conservative principles, by definition, are fiercely resistant to change, unless there is a direct benefit to white males. That's why we see such garment-rending over new ways to teach subtraction while viagara was embraced as a medical breakthrough.
Click to expand...

Totally an aside, but interestingly, Viagra was in fact a failure. It was developed as a drug to increase blood flow to the heart as a treatment for angina. Turns out it increased blood flow a bit farther south.
 
Wat_Tyler said:
I have memorized the entire set of torque specs for a Mopar BB short block so I can assemble one without consulting a manual.


Yeah, I know, right?
Click to expand...

I used to accidentally memorize VW part numbers.
 
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