constitutional crisis ?

[bellisarius]

I wonder how many of those arm chair pundit's scribbling's are an effort to get out in front, and possibly influence, the forthcoming AG report and actions by the court itself?

I'll wait for those reports and actions.

 

[SpeareChucker]

"Reports" never seem to change much.
Bureaucratic busy work to justify increasing budgets.

 

[HisArpy]

we disagree then.

nonetheless, the branches of government are at loggerheads
over what each assumes
and which
in the parlance of donald rumsfeld are... unknown unknowns.

the prima facie connections that trump had to russia were not spun from ether. there was certainly reason for the fbi to do its work -
which you may forget - as it is part of its name - investigation.

there is good evidence and bad... that can be sussed.

but to suggest that deeper scrutiny of candidate trump...
his business connections and contacts with an adversary
were somehow based on a hoax alone is simplistic and silly.

steele was a piece, not the whole.

let the chips fall.
there will be blood enough for everyone;
political or otherwise.

Your refusal to accept reality is why we disagree.

When the FBI investigates, that requires something to investigate. Not every claim is valid and the FIRST priority is to ascertain if the claim has substance.

In this particular case it did not. From the timeline, the indicators are that someone INSIDE the FBI used propaganda to foment a politically motivated investigation. An investigation which knowingly used false information as credible truth in order to promote a ideology over reality.

You have basically stated previously that you do not believe such occurred. While all the facts are yet to come to light, what we now KNOW, is that your belief is incorrect. Trying to hide it behind "investigative procedures" and more propaganda doesn't change that at all.

Mantra over Mankind is a silly argument.

 

[bellisarius]

It would seem to me that for one administration to initiate and investigation into the campaign of any presidential candidate would require a relatively high bar of justification and that it would be viewed with an even more critical eye if that candidate is of the opposition party. In this case the FBI withheld information from the court and the court for it's part did not interrogate the applicants in depth. As more and more information has become available it is apparent that certain individuals at the FBI engaged in out and out fraud. The court is not without blame in this instance but the court didn't initiate this debacle.

In time we're going to find out just how high up the pecking order this whole charade goes. And we, as citizens, can only hope that justice is served on those who perpetrated this act.

 

[HisArpy]

It would seem to me that for one administration to initiate and investigation into the campaign of any presidential candidate would require a relatively high bar of justification and that it would be viewed with an even more critical eye if that candidate is of the opposition party. In this case the FBI withheld information from the court and the court for it's part did not interrogate the applicants in depth. As more and more information has become available it is apparent that certain individuals at the FBI engaged in out and out fraud. The court is not without blame in this instance but the court didn't initiate this debacle.

In time we're going to find out just how high up the pecking order this whole charade goes. And we, as citizens, can only hope that justice is served on those who perpetrated this act.

In time we will eventually know no more than we do now. The waters are too muddy and the cries of political manipulation are already starting by those who are now in the target zone.

In the end it doesn't matter. The coup was prevented, the leaders exposed, and the body count is very low. America is on guard against it happening again and hopefully, Congress will step in to create legislation to prohibit initiating investigations of political opponents without the prior knowledge of publicly elected officials regarding such an investigation.

It doesn't have to be made public, but one of the Congressional committees should be required to be informed and the basis for the investigation laid out with nothing held back or minimized. To keep politics at a minimum, the authorization to proceed MUST be more than a simple majority vote by the committee. 3/4's voting to proceed instead of 2/3's at least. Not quite reasonable doubt but well up there in the skepticism dept.

 

[phrodeau]

Wow, the Deep State corruption must go all the way up to Rod Rosenstein, since his signature is on the FISA warrant. Hang him high!

 

[Carnal_Flower]

Harpy you are always fulla crap on the Russia probe. This is not Fox. Stop spreading lies.

What "propaganda" was that, exactly? What was it exactly that prompted the counter intelligence probe? You know, so tell us. And how do you know it was false? Hint: its not the Steele Dossier. The Steele Dossier had nothing to do with the start of the investigation. And Mueller expressly says in his report the asteele Dossier was not a factor in his probe.

So give us the facts.

Your refusal to accept reality is why we disagree.

When the FBI investigates, that requires something to investigate. Not every claim is valid and the FIRST priority is to ascertain if the claim has substance.

In this particular case it did not. From the timeline, the indicators are that someone INSIDE the FBI used propaganda to foment a politically motivated investigation. An investigation which knowingly used false information as credible truth in order to promote a ideology over reality.

You have basically stated previously that you do not believe such occurred. While all the facts are yet to come to light, what we now KNOW, is that your belief is incorrect. Trying to hide it behind "investigative procedures" and more propaganda doesn't change that at all.

Mantra over Mankind is a silly argument.

 

[Rightguide]

In time we will eventually know no more than we do now. The waters are too muddy and the cries of political manipulation are already starting by those who are now in the target zone.

In the end it doesn't matter. The coup was prevented, the leaders exposed, and the body count is very low. America is on guard against it happening again and hopefully, Congress will step in to create legislation to prohibit initiating investigations of political opponents without the prior knowledge of publicly elected officials regarding such an investigation.

It doesn't have to be made public, but one of the Congressional committees should be required to be informed and the basis for the investigation laid out with nothing held back or minimized. To keep politics at a minimum, the authorization to proceed MUST be more than a simple majority vote by the committee. 3/4's voting to proceed instead of 2/3's at least. Not quite reasonable doubt but well up there in the skepticism dept.

Since law enforcement falls fully under the Article II authority of the executive I doubt, absent a constitutional amendment, Congress can create legislation that inserts a congressional committee into the decision making process of investigating and prosecuting violations of federal law where probable cause and evidence are in the public domain.

 

[icanhelp1]

Since law enforcement falls fully under the Article II authority of the executive I doubt, absent a constitutional amendment, Congress can create legislation that inserts a congressional committee into the decision making process of investigating and prosecuting violations of federal law where probable cause and evidence is in the public domain.

Congress can send criminal referral notifications to the DOJ, as a body congress legislate's not litigate.

 

[Rightguide]

Harpy you are always fulla crap on the Russia probe. This is not Fox. Stop spreading lies.

What "propaganda" was that, exactly? What was it exactly that prompted the counter intelligence probe? You know, so tell us. And how do you know it was false? Hint: its not the Steele Dossier. The Steele Dossier had nothing to do with the start of the investigation. And Mueller expressly says in his report the asteele Dossier was not a factor in his probe.

So give us the facts.

Do yourself a favor and think before you post. Andrew McCabe testified under oath the FISA Warrants to surveil Carter Page could not have been obtained without the Steele Dossier. Keep in mind, Steele himself testified under oath he could not verify the contents of the dossier. Comey swore to the FISC the contents of the Dossier was "verified," He then turned around and told the President it was "salacious but unverified."

In a couple of weeks the IG Report will be out and we will likely find those warrants were illegally obtained. The bottom line will likely be there was no legal predicate to initiate the investigation of the Trump Campaign.

 

[Rightguide]

Congress can send criminal referral notifications to the DOJ, as a body congress legislate's not litigate.

This is true but as you say they are not a criminal investigative entity. They have oversight authority. They can investigate wrongdoing in government in order to create legislative solutions for the future. They do not have the power to issue what amounts to "general Warrants" or in the language of the Founders "writs of assistance," to investigate political opponents.

For instance, the law that Jerry Nadler is using to demand all tax returns for the last ten years of Donald Trump, all business communications between his businesses and their banks, etc, etc., is an illegal abuse of authority. And will be found so by the courts if it arrives at the SCOTUS.

Congressional statutory authority to oversee and request tax returns was a safeguard designed to protect taxpayers from the "IRS." To assure they were not being targeted by the government because of the class, race, gender, or religion. It was not a tool of investigation to be used like a general warrant against any taxpayer in order to find out if he had committed a crime at some point in his life that could be used against him politically today. The actions of the House are not dissimilar to the kind of "general warrants" issued by King George that Americans rebelled against and that prompted James Madison to pen the Fourth Amendment.

The U.S. Supreme Court noted in Payton v. New York, that “indiscriminate searches and seizures conducted under the authority of ‘general warrants’
were the immediate evils that motivated the framing and adoption of the Fourth Amendment.” Payton v New York 445 U.S. 573, 583 (1980).

The scope of the Fourth Amendment was described by the SCOTUS as a “determination . . . that the people of this new Nation should forever ‘be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects’ from intrusion and seizure by officers acing under the unbridled authority of a general warrant.”25 Stanford v. Texas :: 379 U.S. 476 (1965)

The president of the United States is first and foremost a citizen of the United States with every constitutional protection any other citizen has. Nadler and the Democrats should take a breath and understand that simple fact.

 

[phrodeau]

Do yourself a favor and think before you post. Andrew McCabe testified under oath the FISA Warrants to surveil Carter Page could not have been obtained without the Steele Dossier. Keep in mind, Steele himself testified under oath he could not verify the contents of the dossier. Comey swore to the FISC the contents of the Dossier was "verified," He then turned around and told the President it was "salacious but unverified."

In a couple of weeks the IG Report will be out and we will likely find those warrants were illegally obtained. The bottom line will likely be there was no legal predicate to initiate the investigation of the Trump Campaign.

Your timeline is whacky. Go back and study it again. Really, I'm doing you a favor here.

 

[icanhelp1]

This is true but as you say they are not a criminal investigative entity. They have oversight authority. They can investigate wrongdoing in government in order to create legislative solutions for the future. They do not have the power to issue what amounts to "general Warrants" or in the language of the Founders "writs of assistance," to investigate political opponents.

For instance, the law that Jerry Nadler is using to demand all tax returns for the last ten years of Donald Trump, all business communications between his businesses and their banks, etc, etc., is an illegal abuse of authority. And will be found so by the courts if it arrives at the SCOTUS.

Congressional statutory authority to oversee and request tax returns was a safeguard designed to protect taxpayers from the "IRS." To assure they were not being targeted by the government because of the class, race, gender, or religion. It was not a tool of investigation to be used like a general warrant against any taxpayer in order to find out if he had committed a crime at some point in his life that could be used against him politically today. The actions of the House are not dissimilar to the kind of "general warrants" issued by King George that Americans rebelled against and that prompted James Madison to pen the Fourth Amendment.

The U.S. Supreme Court noted in Payton v. New York, that “indiscriminate searches and seizures conducted under the authority of ‘general warrants’
were the immediate evils that motivated the framing and adoption of the Fourth Amendment.” Payton v New York 445 U.S. 573, 583 (1980).

The scope of the Fourth Amendment was described by the SCOTUS as a “determination . . . that the people of this new Nation should forever ‘be secure in their persons, houses, papers and effects’ from intrusion and seizure by officers acing under the unbridled authority of a general warrant.”25 Stanford v. Texas :: 379 U.S. 476 (1965)

The president of the United States is first and foremost a citizen of the United States with every constitutional protection any other citizen has. Nadler and the Democrats should take a breath and understand that simple fact.

I agree 100%, I've studied the issues. Like I've said on many occasions:

" THE CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST "

 

[phrodeau]

I agree 100%, I've studied the issues. Like I've said on many occasions:

" THE CHICKENS ARE COMING HOME TO ROOST "

I prefer the slogan, “Russian lives matter.”

 

[Rightguide]

I prefer the slogan, “Russian lives matter.”

That's because you're an idiot who must always stray from the subject at hand.

 

[phrodeau]

That's because you're an idiot who must always stray from the subject at hand.

It’s not Trump’s cronies’ attempt to subvert and sow distrust in American government?

If that isn’t the subject at hand, why shouldn’t it be?

 

[Rightguide]

Maria Bartiroma reported this morning that sources close to the IG have told her the coming report will detail as well the illegal complicity of the media in advancing the FBI/DOJ/ CIA plot to frame Donald Trump. This will probably involve exposure of illegal bribes offered to FBI agents by media outlets to leak classified information about the counter-intelligence and Mueller Investigation. Lots of nervous people in Washington DC right now, and the reason why Democrats are jumping out of their asses to divert attention and continue their campaign to discredit the AG.

 

[phrodeau]

Maria Bartiroma reported this morning that sources close to the IG have told her the coming report will detail as well the illegal complicity of the media in advancing the FBI/DOJ/ CIA plot to frame Donald Trump. This will probably involve exposure of illegal bribes offered to FBI agents by media outlets to leak classified information about the counter-intelligence and Mueller Investigation. Lots of nervous people in Washington DC right now, and the reason why Democrats are jumping out of their asses to divert attention and continue their campaign to discredit the AG.

The AG discredited himself, and there were no leaks from the Mueller investigation.

 

[Rightguide]

The AG discredited himself, and there were no leaks from the Mueller investigation.

Really? Who do you think leaked Mueller's letter to the AG the day before he was to testify before the Senate? Don't be an idiot. The Mueller investigation was a leak machine:

https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/...investigation-and-the-problems-they-may-cause

https://www.latimes.com/la-ol-enter-the-fray-the-mueller-questions-leak-1525186933-htmlstory.html

https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/robert-muellers-leak-problem/

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/learning-mueller-investigation-leaks-143851603.html

https://en-volve.com/2019/03/27/bre...8-but-dragged-it-out-for-one-corrupt-purpose/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...long-history-of-corrupt-and-criminal-actions/

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gi...bout-barrs-handling-of-obstruction-of-justice

 

[HisArpy]

Harpy you are always fulla crap on the Russia probe. This is not Fox. Stop spreading lies.

What "propaganda" was that, exactly? What was it exactly that prompted the counter intelligence probe? You know, so tell us. And how do you know it was false? Hint: its not the Steele Dossier. The Steele Dossier had nothing to do with the start of the investigation. And Mueller expressly says in his report the asteele Dossier was not a factor in his probe.

So give us the facts.

November 21 [2014]: Bruce Ohr and Christopher Steele discuss cultivating Deripaska as a U.S. intelligence asset.

June 16 [2015]: Donald Trump announces his candidacy for president.

Summer [2015]: Hackers linked to the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB) gain access to the Democratic National Committee's computer network. Dutch intelligence services alert their U.S. counterparts that a hacking group known as Cozy Bear has penetrated the Democratic National Committee (DNC) servers.

September-October [2015]: The Washington Free Beacon, a conservative website primarily funded by billionaire Paul Singer, hires Fusion GPS to perform opposition research on Trump.

Spring [2016]: U.S. intelligence officials' suspicions of Russian meddling in the presidential election grow after their counterparts in Europe warn that Russian money might be flowing into the election

May [2016]: Mother Jones reports that before Trump launched his campaign in 2015, Lewandowski and other political advisors suggested to Trump that they follow standard practice and hire someone to perform opposition research on him. Trump refused.

June [2016]:The FBI sends a warning to states about "bad actors" probing state voter-registration databases and systems to seek vulnerabilities; investigators believe Russia is responsible.

Fusion GPS hires Steele to research Trump's activities in Russia. A resultant 35-page document, later known as the Trump–Russia dossier or Steele dossier, is published on January 10, 2017, by BuzzFeed News.

Gawker publishes an opposition research document on Trump that was stolen from the DNC. "Guccifer 2.0" sent the file to Gawker.

Summer [2016]: The FBI applies for a FISA warrant to monitor communications of four Trump campaign officials. The FISA Court rejects the application, asking the FBI to narrow its scope.

July [2016]: FBI informant Stefan Halper has an initial encounter with Carter Page at a London symposium.

The Australian government informs the U.S. government of Papadopoulos's May 6 interactions with their ambassador in London. The FBI opens its investigation of potential coordination between Russia and the Trump campaign five days later.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections

My apologies for posting a lot from the link but it's voluminous and these are only some of the highlights.

OTOH, this stuff isn't that difficult to find IF one actually looks for it instead of merely regurgitating the propaganda of the Left.

Note that AS EARLY AS 2014 Ohr and Steele were buddies. And that most of the activity seemed to involve, or be at the behest of, the DNC/Dem candidates AGAINST Trump.

You should also note that the ORIGINAL FISA warrant was well before the Halper/Carter Page meeting where Page was "set up" by the FBI.

We also know now that at the time of the original FISA warrant request the dossier had NOT been "verified" as true even though the FBI stated in the application that it had been. Thus, as I said, the FBI opened an investigation INTO TRUMP based on a false claim after it failed to properly validate that claim prior to opening that investigation. AND, we now know that the Mueller report says something about how the interference might have been based on Russian Propaganda. You know, like the Steele Dossier...

 

[phrodeau]

Really? Who do you think leaked Mueller's letter to the AG the day before he was to testify before the Senate? Don't be an idiot. The Mueller investigation was a leak machine:

https://wjla.com/news/nation-world/...investigation-and-the-problems-they-may-cause

https://www.latimes.com/la-ol-enter-the-fray-the-mueller-questions-leak-1525186933-htmlstory.html

https://nypost.com/2017/11/06/robert-muellers-leak-problem/

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/learning-mueller-investigation-leaks-143851603.html

https://en-volve.com/2019/03/27/bre...8-but-dragged-it-out-for-one-corrupt-purpose/

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...long-history-of-corrupt-and-criminal-actions/

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/gi...bout-barrs-handling-of-obstruction-of-justice

Opinions and fake news.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

And what proof do you have of what basis the FBI stated to begin its official investigation?

You dont know what information they had which has not been made public; you werent there for their decision making meetings; you don't know what public parts of this "timeline" were discounted by the FBI.

You don't know and Fox doesn't know.

You're cooking up a conspiracy based purely on conjecture and guesswork from a baseline of total ignorance about what went on in the FBI.

My apologies for posting a lot from the link but it's voluminous and these are only some of the highlights.

OTOH, this stuff isn't that difficult to find IF one actually looks for it instead of merely regurgitating the propaganda of the Left.

Note that AS EARLY AS 2014 Ohr and Steele were buddies. And that most of the activity seemed to involve, or be at the behest of, the DNC/Dem candidates AGAINST Trump.

You should also note that the ORIGINAL FISA warrant was well before the Halper/Carter Page meeting where Page was "set up" by the FBI.

We also know now that at the time of the original FISA warrant request the dossier had NOT been "verified" as true even though the FBI stated in the application that it had been. Thus, as I said, the FBI opened an investigation INTO TRUMP based on a false claim after it failed to properly validate that claim prior to opening that investigation. AND, we now know that the Mueller report says something about how the interference might have been based on Russian Propaganda. You know, like the Steele Dossier...

 

[cleaver]

Do yourself a favor and think before you post. Andrew McCabe testified under oath the FISA Warrants to surveil Carter Page could not have been obtained without the Steele Dossier. Keep in mind, Steele himself testified under oath he could not verify the contents of the dossier. Comey swore to the FISC the contents of the Dossier was "verified," He then turned around and told the President it was "salacious but unverified."

In a couple of weeks the IG Report will be out and we will likely find those warrants were illegally obtained. The bottom line will likely be there was no legal predicate to initiate the investigation of the Trump Campaign.

timelines and bi-partisan congressional findings on this very issue contradict your entire premise:

let us start - and hopefully end - with a memo released by the republican members of the house intelligence committee looking into your elusive illegal deep state genesis of the probe - dated feb 2, 2018 - as reported by fact check.org

it says in part:

A memo released Feb. 2, 2018, by the Republicans on the House intelligence committee raised concerns about the use of the dossier in an application from the DOJ and FBI under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to conduct electronic surveillance on Carter Page, another Trump campaign foreign policy adviser. But it said the “Papadopoulos information triggered the opening of an FBI counterintelligence investigation in late July 2016.”

The Democrats on the House intelligence committee agreed with that, saying in a memo released Feb. 24, 2018, that the FBI investigation started “more than seven weeks” before the FBI received Steele’s intelligence reporting in mid-September of that year.

The two sides disagree about how essential the dossier was to the FISA court application to monitor Page. But one of the few points of agreement is that the FBI investigation began with information on Papadopoulos.​

popadopoulos - a trump campaign foreign policy wonk - shot his mouth off
to an australian diplomat
as to the russians preparing to dump the stolen hrc/dnc emails...
to effect the upcoming election...

with me so far. i know this gets convoluted.

oboma doj goes to fisa for surveillance on popadopoulos. (late july 2016)

the missing emails were on the investigative table already...
at least as far back as the dnc convention,
when the first set released by wikileaks
cost debbie wasserman schultz her job
as party chair mid-convention...

the carter page fisa was not issued until october 2016...
3+ months after the popadopoulos one.
yes. after steele landed at doj:

here is a redacted copy of the page fisa with date

this genesis - deep state - narrative is faulted by publicly discernible fact
and... confirmed as such by bi-partisan intelligence committee agreement.

the object is to nullify mueller's report - i get it -
good luck. nice smoke and drum beats.

 

[HisArpy]

And what proof do you have of what basis the FBI stated to begin its official investigation?

You dont know what information they had which has not been made public; you werent there for their decision making meetings; you don't know what public parts of this "timeline" were discounted by the FBI.

You don't know and Fox doesn't know.

You're cooking up a conspiracy based purely on conjecture and guesswork from a baseline of total ignorance about what went on in the FBI.

dudly, the timeline isn't my imagination. Those are the events displayed in sequence. According to that sequence, the information the FBI had at the time they began their investigation was bogus. We KNOW it was bogus because the Mueller report PROVES it was bogus. The investigations into the Steele dossier ALSO show it was bogus and unverified.

Believe what you want, but the FACTS show that the FBI opened an investigation based on a fake claim and they failed to verify the claim before acting on it. The "premier law enforcement organization in the world" totally failed to verify information before moving forward to investigate a political candidate for President. Then they LIED about verifying the evidence supporting that claim in order to obtain warrants to spy on Trump and his campaign.

And, the above is only SOME of the crap that happened. I didn't even mention all the back-door information from Ohr's wife at Fusion GPS or McCain's office peddling the SAME dossier to the FBI.

The question waiting to be answered is; why did they do that?

Page and Strzok's text messages, as well as Rosenstein's "wear a wire so we can invoke the 25th Amendment" comments, plus McCabe's/Page's/Strzok's "insurance policy" and all the strategic timing of the "leaking" of classified information tell us why.

So. please try to keep up with the rest of the class.

 

[cleaver]

dudly, the timeline isn't my imagination. Those are the events displayed in sequence. According to that sequence, the information the FBI had at the time they began their investigation was bogus. We KNOW it was bogus because the Mueller report PROVES it was bogus. The investigations into the Steele dossier ALSO show it was bogus and unverified.

Believe what you want, but the FACTS show that the FBI opened an investigation based on a fake claim and they failed to verify the claim before acting on it. The "premier law enforcement organization in the world" totally failed to verify information before moving forward to investigate a political candidate for President. Then they LIED about verifying the evidence supporting that claim in order to obtain warrants to spy on Trump and his campaign.

And, the above is only SOME of the crap that happened. I didn't even mention all the back-door information from Ohr's wife at Fusion GPS or McCain's office peddling the SAME dossier to the FBI.

The question waiting to be answered is; why did they do that?

Page and Strzok's text messages, as well as Rosenstein's "wear a wire so we can invoke the 25th Amendment" comments, plus McCabe's/Page's/Strzok's "insurance policy" and all the strategic timing of the "leaking" of classified information tell us why.

So. please try to keep up with the rest of the class.

your position is hopeless
for the very timeline you tout and then add whirling smoke to
shows you to be so.

to quote you - of all posters here -

"Cut the crap and accept defeat."