constitutional crisis ?

[HisArpy]

timelines and bi-partisan congressional findings on this very issue contradict your entire premise:

let us start - and hopefully end - with a memo released by the republican members of the house intelligence committee looking into your elusive illegal deep state genesis of the probe - dated feb 2, 2018 - as reported by fact check.org

it says in part:

A memo released Feb. 2, 2018, by the Republicans on the House intelligence committee raised concerns about the use of the dossier in an application from the DOJ and FBI under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to conduct electronic surveillance on Carter Page, another Trump campaign foreign policy adviser. But it said the “Papadopoulos information triggered the opening of an FBI counterintelligence investigation in late July 2016.”

The Democrats on the House intelligence committee agreed with that, saying in a memo released Feb. 24, 2018, that the FBI investigation started “more than seven weeks” before the FBI received Steele’s intelligence reporting in mid-September of that year.

The two sides disagree about how essential the dossier was to the FISA court application to monitor Page. But one of the few points of agreement is that the FBI investigation began with information on Papadopoulos.​

popadopoulos - a trump campaign foreign policy wonk - shot his mouth off
to an australian diplomat
as to the russians preparing to dump the stolen hrc/dnc emails...
to effect the upcoming election...

with me so far. i know this gets convoluted.

oboma doj goes to fisa for surveillance on popadopoulos. (late july 2016)

the missing emails were on the investigative table already...
at least as far back as the dnc convention,
when the first set released by wikileaks
cost debbie wasserman schultz her job
as party chair mid-convention...

the carter page fisa was not issued until october 2016...
3+ months after the popadopoulos one.
yes. after steele landed at doj:

here is a redacted copy of the page fisa with date

this genesis - deep state - narrative is faulted by publicly discernible fact
and... confirmed as such by bi-partisan intelligence committee agreement.

the object is to nullify mueller's report - i get it -
good luck. nice smoke and drum beats.

Oh shut the fuck up already. Papadopolous didn't join the campaign until March 2016. According to other sources and articles, he didn't meet with the Aussie Ambassador until May 2016. The Aussie's didn't tell the FBI about it for TWO MONTHS. Yet, right at that point in time, the FBI sought it's first FISA warrant based on the dossier and including the Aussie information as well.

This is the "premier law enforcement agency" that takes YEARS to conduct simple research and investigation/analysis of actual documents moving at the equivalent of the speed of light to get a FISA warrant. A warrant application WE KNOW was based on the Steele dossier that they failed to vet. I'm betting they failed to vet the Aussie's claims as well since NO ONE has been able to obtain any additional information - the Aussies keep declining to comment about the details of a public meeting in a FUCKING BAR.

Believe what you want but the truth is that your belief is nothing but crap. It's crap because the real facts put into context via the timelines and other sources/articles that anyone can research prove it's crap.

 

[cleaver]

...6 .... 7... 8... 9... 10

here is a wet wipe.

...froth at the corners of your... uhhh... fingertips.

 

[icanhelp1]

timelines and bi-partisan congressional findings on this very issue contradict your entire premise:

let us start - and hopefully end - with a memo released by the republican members of the house intelligence committee looking into your elusive illegal deep state genesis of the probe - dated feb 2, 2018 - as reported by fact check.org

it says in part:

A memo released Feb. 2, 2018, by the Republicans on the House intelligence committee raised concerns about the use of the dossier in an application from the DOJ and FBI under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act to conduct electronic surveillance on Carter Page, another Trump campaign foreign policy adviser. But it said the “Papadopoulos information triggered the opening of an FBI counterintelligence investigation in late July 2016.”

The Democrats on the House intelligence committee agreed with that, saying in a memo released Feb. 24, 2018, that the FBI investigation started “more than seven weeks” before the FBI received Steele’s intelligence reporting in mid-September of that year.

The two sides disagree about how essential the dossier was to the FISA court application to monitor Page. But one of the few points of agreement is that the FBI investigation began with information on Papadopoulos.​

popadopoulos - a trump campaign foreign policy wonk - shot his mouth off
to an australian diplomat
as to the russians preparing to dump the stolen hrc/dnc emails...
to effect the upcoming election...

with me so far. i know this gets convoluted.

oboma doj goes to fisa for surveillance on popadopoulos. (late july 2016)

the missing emails were on the investigative table already...
at least as far back as the dnc convention,
when the first set released by wikileaks
cost debbie wasserman schultz her job
as party chair mid-convention...

the carter page fisa was not issued until october 2016...
3+ months after the popadopoulos one.
yes. after steele landed at doj:

here is a redacted copy of the page fisa with date

this genesis - deep state - narrative is faulted by publicly discernible fact
and... confirmed as such by bi-partisan intelligence committee agreement.

the object is to nullify mueller's report - i get it -
good luck. nice smoke and drum beats.

What you fail to report is that Carter page was FISA'ed in 2013/2014 time frame and Page was determined to be an idiot according to Russian spies, an unreliable and low to no value target, the results of these wire tap findings on Page were not included in the 2016 application to renew a FISA warrant against Page, instead used the Steele dossier within an echo chamber to validate a renewal paid for by the DNC and HR. Papadopoulos was set up and played by the CIA and the FBI. I believe if the 2014 results were included in the 2016 renewal it would have been denied. Just my humble opinion.

 

[Carnal_Flower]

You dont know "the information the FBI had at the time" and you don't know exactly on what they based their decisions. You dont know, therefore you have no ground to say "it" was "bogus." Who gave you omniscience?

You're another Jim Jordan ya delusional nutjob

dudly, the timeline isn't my imagination. Those are the events displayed in sequence. According to that sequence, the information the FBI had at the time they began their investigation was bogus. We KNOW it was bogus because the Mueller report PROVES it was bogus. The investigations into the Steele dossier ALSO show it was bogus and unverified.

Believe what you want, but the FACTS show that the FBI opened an investigation based on a fake claim and they failed to verify the claim before acting on it. The "premier law enforcement organization in the world" totally failed to verify information before moving forward to investigate a political candidate for President. Then they LIED about verifying the evidence supporting that claim in order to obtain warrants to spy on Trump and his campaign.

And, the above is only SOME of the crap that happened. I didn't even mention all the back-door information from Ohr's wife at Fusion GPS or McCain's office peddling the SAME dossier to the FBI.

The question waiting to be answered is; why did they do that?

Page and Strzok's text messages, as well as Rosenstein's "wear a wire so we can invoke the 25th Amendment" comments, plus McCabe's/Page's/Strzok's "insurance policy" and all the strategic timing of the "leaking" of classified information tell us why.

So. please try to keep up with the rest of the class.

 

[cleaver]

What you fail to report is that Carter page was FISA'ed in 2013/2014 time frame and Page was determined to be an idiot according to Russian spies, an unreliable and low to no value target, the results of these wire tap findings on Page were not included in the 2016 application to renew a FISA warrant against Page, instead used the Steele dossier within an echo chamber to validate a renewal paid for by the DNC and HR. Papadopoulos was set up and played by the CIA and the FBI. I believe if the 2014 results were included in the 2016 renewal it would have been denied. Just my humble opinion.

carter page is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

was he fisa'd after popadopoulos in investigation into russia/2016 election?
yes.

investigation into the russian interference/trump campaign
starts with popadopoulos...

this is the investigation from which mueller blossomed.
per the bi-partisan findings of the house intelligence committee.

are you now reaching back to 2013/2014 as the beginning of the deep state smear v. trump?

let us assume, for the sake of comity's argument,
that your page allegation is true...
(god help me...)
any investigation into page then is an entirely different matter.

by the time page was fisa'd again(?), the investigation that sprung mueller was 3 months underway.

again, for the sake of comity's argument,
let us assume that it is found
- for you have shown not one iota of proof to support it -
that popadopoulos was a deep state stooge...

then... mueller's report is null and void?

shove that one down the throats of the idiot mob
who vote - no doubt unfettered by outside foreign influence.

the intricacies of this spun-up deep state conspiracy are...
becoming less and less compelling
as fact and reason get in the way.

it was entirely reasonable -
from publicly discernible indicators
to scrutinize trump's campaign and possible connections
to an adversary - already acknowledged by dhs, cia, doj and fbi
to have perpetrated the hacking of dnc electronic data.

but... again...
if your allegations bare viable fruit...
good on you.

mueller's investigation cannot be shoved back into the toothpaste tube.

 

[Rightguide]

Oh shut the fuck up already. Papadopolous didn't join the campaign until March 2016. According to other sources and articles, he didn't meet with the Aussie Ambassador until May 2016. The Aussie's didn't tell the FBI about it for TWO MONTHS. Yet, right at that point in time, the FBI sought it's first FISA warrant based on the dossier and including the Aussie information as well.

This is the "premier law enforcement agency" that takes YEARS to conduct simple research and investigation/analysis of actual documents moving at the equivalent of the speed of light to get a FISA warrant. A warrant application WE KNOW was based on the Steele dossier that they failed to vet. I'm betting they failed to vet the Aussie's claims as well since NO ONE has been able to obtain any additional information - the Aussies keep declining to comment about the details of a public meeting in a FUCKING BAR.

Believe what you want but the truth is that your belief is nothing but crap. It's crap because the real facts put into context via the timelines and other sources/articles that anyone can research prove it's crap.

The pucker factor in DC just increased a bit with Barr's appointment of federal prosecutor John Durham to look into the origins of the Trump investigation and I suspect to prosecute criminal referrals that will shortly be coming from the IG. This is a hard nosed prosecutor with an outstanding record for FBI and national security prosecutions. He once convicted and put in prison the Governor of Connecticut.

 

[Rightguide]

You dont know "the information the FBI had at the time" and you don't know exactly on what they based their decisions. You dont know, therefore you have no ground to say "it" was "bogus." Who gave you omniscience?

You're another Jim Jordan ya delusional nutjob

And you're another ignorant fool.

 

[toeskr]

And you're another ignorant fool.

She has to know. She knows everything. Can’t / won't tell us but she knows!

She can also link you up to a great incest story if you want to take her seriously.

 

[cleaver]

so much for civility...

 

[Kantarii]

Deleted.

 

[toeskr]

so much for civility...

The left has degenerated, I agree.

Nothing gets accomplished anymore.

Let's impeach because of...

What?

 

[icanhelp1]

carter page is irrelevant to the issue at hand.

was he fisa'd after popadopoulos in investigation into russia/2016 election?
yes.

investigation into the russian interference/trump campaign
starts with popadopoulos...

this is the investigation from which mueller blossomed.
per the bi-partisan findings of the house intelligence committee.

are you now reaching back to 2013/2014 as the beginning of the deep state smear v. trump?

let us assume, for the sake of comity's argument,
that your page allegation is true...
(god help me...)
any investigation into page then is an entirely different matter.

by the time page was fisa'd again(?), the investigation that sprung mueller was 3 months underway.

again, for the sake of comity's argument,
let us assume that it is found
- for you have shown not one iota of proof to support it -
that popadopoulos was a deep state stooge...

then... mueller's report is null and void?

shove that one down the throats of the idiot mob
who vote - no doubt unfettered by outside foreign influence.

the intricacies of this spun-up deep state conspiracy are...
becoming less and less compelling
as fact and reason get in the way.

it was entirely reasonable -
from publicly discernible indicators
to scrutinize trump's campaign and possible connections
to an adversary - already acknowledged by dhs, cia, doj and fbi
to have perpetrated the hacking of dnc electronic data.

but... again...
if your allegations bare viable fruit...
good on you.

mueller's investigation cannot be shoved back into the toothpaste tube.

The Steele dossier revolved around Carter Page and Trump and Russian collusion. The Steele dossier was the basis for wiretapping Page and others as either Russian spies or colluding with Russian agents. Papadopoulos was part of the surveillance but more of n FBI set up.

 

[phrodeau]

The Steele dossier revolved around Carter Page and Trump and Russian collusion. The Steele dossier was the basis for wiretapping Page and others as either Russian spies or colluding with Russian agents. Papadopoulos was part of the surveillance but more of n FBI set up.

Only the good parts of the dossier.

 

[cleaver]

let us dismiss the dossier - now - as fake.
let us disparage the fisa on page...

oh, wait.
while we are here...
let's revisit the bar set for a fisa...

it is a process that allows counterintelligence surveillance
on domestic soil for reasons of national security.

to get a fisa, an application must go through the fbi chain of command..
then through the washington headquarters...
then through doj... to be approved at ag level
then through fisa staff
with questions asked, answered and revisions being made along the way.
many eyes see an application.

it is then presented to a fisa judge for action.

the bar is not as high as 'beyond a reasonable doubt'
or even 'a preponderance of the evidence'
but rather that a subject elicits...

“reasonable, articulable suspicion” that the selection term is “associated with a foreign power” or an “agent of a foreign power” engaged in or preparing to engage in for international terrorism.
​

a rather good overview of fisa and its process linked here

part of this chain of review is the supposed neutral ascertainment that
source evidence is "reliable".

the allegation into the october 2016 fisa on page
is that it was based solely on the steele dossier;
which named page as an agent working with the russians.

in retrospect, and per mueller, parts of this dossier have either been found unreliable or unsubstantiated.

yet... page, who had worked for the trump campaign,
was already a known character within the intelligence community;
he is an economist, by trade - a russian expert by self admission.
a former employer referred to him as a "wackadoodle" when it came to his views.
he had indeed worked for the kremlin...
in preparation for its role as president of the 2013 g-20 summit when,
russian agents attempted to recruit him...
a first fisa was put on page in 2014.

he was a person of interest to the intelligence community long before steele named him.

more in the carter page wiki


so, back to the point...

it's a month before the election (2016)
it is known that the election is being influenced by russia.
a former intelligence officer from our closest ally
presents a dossier on trump that names page as an agent of russia.

a fisa is granted to surveil him.

doesn't take much deeeeep staaaaate to connect those dots.

if indeed the process was subverted,
we can just as easily assume that the "bureaucracy"
cut corners to investigate/mitigate page's part in the russian influence
asap (the election less than a month away)
as we can concoct a story that suggests a conspiracy within
the intelligence community to stop trump's election.

interesting side note...
one robert mueller - as fbi director - more than a decade and a half back
actually had to address such cutting of corners by the fbi in the fisa process
by implementing the "woods procedures";
to assure "accuracy in factual submissions to the fisa court"

the fbi/fisa relationship has been a... less than ideal one
since its inception.

if something was askew in the 2016 fisa warrant on page... do the investigation... get some flesh and some heads...

does this obviate the mueller investigation?
does it debunk popadopoulos?
does it erase all other issues involved
re: the russian interventions into the 2016 election
and possible connections to candidate trump?

carter page is irrelevant to the big picture.

 

[Rightguide]

let us dismiss the dossier - now - as fake.
let us disparage the fisa on page...

oh, wait.
while we are here...
let's revisit the bar set for a fisa...

it is a process that allows counterintelligence surveillance
on domestic soil for reasons of national security.

to get a fisa, an application must go through the fbi chain of command..
then through the washington headquarters...
then through doj... to be approved at ag level
then through fisa staff
with questions asked, answered and revisions being made along the way.
many eyes see an application.

it is then presented to a fisa judge for action.

the bar is not as high as 'beyond a reasonable doubt'
or even 'a preponderance of the evidence'
but rather that a subject elicits...

You forgot to add, across the top of the FISA application are in big red letters the word, "Verified." The Dossier was never "verified" as it was sworn to be by the signatory.

 

[phrodeau]

You forgot to add, across the top of the FISA application are in big red letters the word, "Verified." The Dossier was never "verified" as it was sworn to be by the signatory.

dos·si·er
/ˈdôsēˌā,ˈdäsēˌā/
noun
a collection of documents about a particular person, event, or subject.

Which ones weren't verified?

 

[Rightguide]

dos·si·er
/ˈdôsēˌā,ˈdäsēˌā/
noun
a collection of documents about a particular person, event, or subject.

Which ones weren't verified?

The author, Christopher Steele, testified the contents weren't verified.

 

[phrodeau]

The author, Christopher Steele, testified the contents weren't verified.

Sure, as far as he knew.

 

[cleaver]

You forgot to add, across the top of the FISA application are in big red letters the word, "Verified." The Dossier was never "verified" as it was sworn to be by the signatory.

here again is the redacted page fisa application:

read it, vette.
the line says : verified application
which means only that contemporaneously
the evidence presented - to effect surveillance on page
was considered reliable...
that it was vetted through the process, amended where necessary
and made final for presentation.

this is the verified application: meaning it is not a draft... or an amended draft
or a work in progress... but, the official application.

fuck!
if you are gonna find fault that is fault
don't fuck it up so blithely!

you can also peruse the unredacted pages of the document
which give some background substantiation for monitoring page...

including:
the threat assessment that the election was being attacked by russia...
the dnc electronic data was hacked by russia...
page had been recruited by russia...
and that page had, until the allegations of steele came out, worked for the trump campaign...

all this in the verified fisa application.

 

[bigsly]

Hey,
just wondering,
is this "constitutional crisis" I first heard about a week ago from every talking head on CNN, MSNBC
and repeated/reenforced ver batim by so by of their guests
and Socialist Democratic partisan politicians alike,
still going on?
Thanks.

 

[cleaver]

Hey,
just wondering,
is this "constitutional crisis" I first heard about a week ago from every talking head on CNN, MSNBC
and repeated/reenforced ver batim by so by of their guests
and Socialist Democratic partisan politicians alike,
still going on?
Thanks.

can't tell you.
don't know.

congress can't talk to them.
they can't talk to congress.
the ones who have already testified
are now enjoined by blanket exec. priv.

seems like there is at least... constipation
(citation above... like 6 pages back...)

 

[phrodeau]

Hey,
just wondering,
is this "constitutional crisis" I first heard about a week ago from every talking head on CNN, MSNBC
and repeated/reenforced ver batim by so by of their guests
and Socialist Democratic partisan politicians alike,
still going on?
Thanks.

President Trump says that we have at least two.

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=90773665&postcount=882

 

[bigsly]

so, if it's merely constipation
then crisis is misused, deliberately

President Trump says that we have at least two.

As someone who long, long ago realized that at least every other word which escapes Trump's lips is either self-promotional bullshit or flat-out lie, I pity all those who still pimp his words whatsoever, for any reason.

 

[about_average]

I don't see how.

Is a branch of government acting outside it's authority unchecked??



How are those institutions imperiled?

They are designed to collide, there are very clear rules on how each institution gets to gut check the other...it's called checks and balances. As long as those rules set forth in the Constitution are followed, I don't see a Constitutional crisis.

Everything is peachy as far as government function/structure goes.

Well, yes, one branch is, so far. One clear example is Mnuchin ignoring the subpoena for Trump's tax returns in clear violation of the law and going unpunished by neither congress nor the DOJ.

His only argument is that the committee doesn't have a valid reason, but there's exactly zero in the law that says they need any reason, valid or not, and the law gives him no choice, it's a "shall provide" statute.

If he goes unpunished for violating a law the constitution gives congress the power to enact, it's a crisis in setting the precedent that administrations can blatantly and unarguably violate the constitution.
Though IMO it's not an actual constitutional crises until SCOTUS rules that the administration can ignore the law.

The same with Trump's claim of executive privilege for information that pertains to him prior to him taking over the Executive Branch.

Removing from congress their constitutional power and giving it to the executive branch would certainly be a constitutional crises.

But it's up to congress whether they allow that to happen. The Senate, of course, started down the path of giving up power when they confirmed Amy Coney Barrett for US Court of Appeals in 2017. A judge Trump has his eye on for the Supreme Court. A judge who says religion should take precedence over the constitution.

 

[JohnnySavage]

verbatim is one word.