Conveying a non-focal character's emotional progression

[TheExperimentalist]

I guess something else tied up in my problem is how to maintain suspense for the reader. After all, you know what site you're reading this story on, and in what category, you know that they're gonna end up fucking at the end, so you know that anything that looks like it might be attraction almost certainly is. There's no mystery left. The reader doesn't have to wonder.

But maybe the idea is to turn that to my advantage, to write it in a way that says 'yeah, you as the reader know what they're feeling and what they're going to end up doing, but the characters don't know they're in a porn story' and go from there?

 

[anthrodisiac]

YES! Thank you! Both for understanding my question, and for addressing it in a way that cuts to the heart of the problem I'm having. You make several good points that may be helpful to me. There's usually a stage where a character thinks they're the only one with feelings, then a later stage where they start to wonder, then the point at which the feelings are brought out in the open and mutually confirmed. I guess the stage I'm having trouble with is the first stage, where the character thinks the other one doesn't have those feelings, but is still confronting their own, looking inward (do I REALLY feel that way? Is it wrong? Would they think it was wrong if they knew?) while at the same time the other one is going through a similar, but less visible series of self-doubt. I guess I just don't want 'less visible' to mean 'invisible'.

It's also a bit hard to talk about story structure and concepts in the abstract, which I think may be part of the confusion (and I'll freely admit that I may not have communicated it as well as I could have either).

Hey, occasional I do something right! Crazy, dude.

I really do think visualizing both characters as separate, but equal partners in this story, even if it's told from one of their POV and not the other, is your best approach. It allows you to get inside both their head, then pick and choose which reactions are best. Key is tuning how subtle it is so it's not so obvious that the POV MC seems stupid for not noticing (or having to invent some other reason), but not so subtle that the reader isn't sure.

Which T/I actually works really well in your favor in having it be less subtle, but still not, "Oh, obviously she wants me." It's even more confusing when it's a behavior that's noticed, but you aren't 100% sure and the risks are so great. Maybe a touch that lasts a bit too long, or a kiss on the cheek, catching her staring. Also make sure it's a reciprocal he's giving off signals to her as well, but he's trying to hide them because he doesn't want to risk being too obvious, and then it gets to the point where one or the other finally caves and decides to go for it, consequences be damned. Boom. Fireworks.

It's also a bit hard to talk about story structure and concepts in the abstract, which I think may be part of the confusion (and I'll freely admit that I may not have communicated it as well as I could have either).

For sure. Especially when it's something that's a matter of tuning a story and narrative a certain way, it's kinda hard to adequately convey the necessary information.

 

[anthrodisiac]

I guess something else tied up in my problem is how to maintain suspense for the reader. After all, you know what site you're reading this story on, and in what category, you know that they're gonna end up fucking at the end, so you know that anything that looks like it might be attraction almost certainly is. There's no mystery left. The reader doesn't have to wonder.

But maybe the idea is to turn that to my advantage, to write it in a way that says 'yeah, you as the reader know what they're feeling and what they're going to end up doing, but the characters don't know they're in a porn story' and go from there?

There's multiple ways to maintain suspense. Suspense isn't always, "Will they, won't they?" It can be the slowly coiling, clearly inevitable outcome, but how is it going to happen? Tension can live in the story, or it can live in the characters.

I think for this, the tension is less "Is it going to happen?" Clearly it's going to happen, it's Lit. It's more in the POV MC's agonizing over what to do, if what he's seeing is real.

There's something fun about the gravitational dance of two bodies circling in tighter and tighter orbits. It's fundamental physics: we all know they're going to crash into each other. But the beauty lies in the dance. What flares, what tugs, what pushes? It's beautiful, it's tense, even if you know pretty much what's going to happen.

If you really want to throw in some tension, then you go third party threatens to ruin everything. Does a third body threaten to send one partner careening into the void, disrupted and lost forever? Or is the pair so tightly bound that not even this instability can break them up?

I watch too many space documentaries.

 

[Britva415]

I guess something else tied up in my problem is how to maintain suspense for the reader. After all, you know what site you're reading this story on, and in what category, you know that they're gonna end up fucking at the end, so you know that anything that looks like it might be attraction almost certainly is. There's no mystery left. The reader doesn't have to wonder.

Mystery and suspense aren’t the same thing at all.

Knowing that the two characters are going to get there, but watching them not get there, that can be very suspenseful!

Knowing what the stakes are for each of them is good. Knowing that there are stakes is compelling. Watching people be in their own way can lead to really rooting for them to figure it out.

It can also lead to feeling sick of their cluelessness, so, the solution to that wouldn’t be about maintaining suspense, it would be about maintaining progress. “Stuck” isn’t suspenseful or compelling. Anticipating progress is.

 

[TheExperimentalist]

There's something fun about the gravitational dance of two bodies circling in tighter and tighter orbits. It's fundamental physics: we all know they're going to crash into each other. But the beauty lies in the dance. What flares, what tugs, what pushes? It's beautiful, it's tense, even if you know pretty much what's going to happen.

And so, here we are, victims of mathematics. (Bonus points to anyone who knows the reference without looking it up.)

 

[TheExperimentalist]

Mystery and suspense aren’t the same thing at all.

Knowing that the two characters are going to get there, but watching them not get there, that can be very suspenseful!

Knowing what the stakes are for each of them is good. Knowing that there are stakes is compelling. Watching people be in their own way can lead to really rooting for them to figure it out.

It can also lead to feeling sick of their cluelessness, so, the solution to that wouldn’t be about maintaining suspense, it would be about maintaining progress. “Stuck” isn’t suspenseful or compelling. Anticipating progress is.

I agree with this, 100%. I assure you that 'stuck' and 'no progress' is not what I'm going for with not having the POV character pick up on stuff yet. There's quite a lot of development.

 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

signs clear enough for readers and signs subtle enough for a reasonably observant character

I believe you are struggling with the core of show-dont-tell. No matter which pov you use the challenge remains the same. I struggle with it too and ask myself the same questions. Take the "is she into me/him, or not." In real life everyone has the same difficulties too. in deciphering this question merely from non-verbal (micro) signs.
If you go for the tell "She was into him/I realised she was into me" it is solved effectively but it is flat. If you try to describe the signs to let the reader deduct the fact, it can become cumbersome and repetitive.
What works better depends on the scene.
I think this also links to your question of suspense. Yes we know they will have sex, so there is no suspense about it. For me the suspense is in the way they get there. Many stories are about smashing moral standards. So for me the suspense is how and when the moral boundaries get broken. What has to happen that a parent and child have sex, or that a married person cheats, or when reluctance breaks down...

 

[Britva415]

I believe you are struggling with the core of show-dont-tell

Like... Sort of?

This is different, though, because the problem is showing the reader something the narrator isn't aware of, but doing it through the narrator's own telling.

I mean, maybe it gets to something I say a lot, which is that you can't show anything without telling something else. But the crux here really is allowing the narrator to tell something which they don't recognize the meaning of, while transparently allowing it to show to the reader.

I wouldn't say that's the core of show-don't-tell, I'd say that's like a "special move" within show-don't-tell. Let the narrator show it without even knowing what it is they're showing.

And then let the whole story depend on succeeding at that, as an author.

This is way beyond plain old show-don't-tell. I think it could be pulled off, but:

A really good author could do this entirely in first-person without head-hopping perspective shifts by letting the reader see the clues the other character is emitting while keeping it plausible that the narrator character is not picking up the same clues. They're seeing the same thing but it doesn't mean to the narrator what it means to the reader. I'm not saying this would be easy but it would be kick-awesome if it could be pulled off. Yes, it means the narrator character has to be a little bit dumb, or at least have a blind spot the reader can see through.

 

[NuclearFairy]

YES! Thank you! Both for understanding my question, and for addressing it in a way that cuts to the heart of the problem I'm having. You make several good points that may be helpful to me. There's usually a stage where a character thinks they're the only one with feelings, then a later stage where they start to wonder, then the point at which the feelings are brought out in the open and mutually confirmed. I guess the stage I'm having trouble with is the first stage, where the character thinks the other one doesn't have those feelings, but is still confronting their own, looking inward (do I REALLY feel that way? Is it wrong? Would they think it was wrong if they knew?) while at the same time the other one is going through a similar, but less visible series of self-doubt. I guess I just don't want 'less visible' to mean 'invisible'.

Showing awkwardness on the other person that the pov character isn't sure what to make of might be the answer to this. The readers might not know what to make of it either in the moment, but in hindsight it should make sense.

Something like this maybe:

She looked up from her phone, giving me a thoughtful frown that went on for far too long. After a couple of anxious moments of her not answering the question about dinner I let out an uncertain, "Sis?"

Blushing she looked back down at her phone, and asked with a mumble, "What was that?"

Baffled, I repeated my question, "What do you want for dinner, tacos or sausage?"

 

[xannatharr]

Wow, one of the better threads I have stumbled across on these forums!

 

[anthrodisiac]

Showing awkwardness on the other person that the pov character isn't sure what to make of might be the answer to this. The readers might not know what to make of it either in the moment, but in hindsight it should make sense.

Something like this maybe:

Absolutely agree. Having uncertain signals open to interpretation is the best way to handle something like that. It leaves the MC unsure, and, more importantly, it leaves the reader unsure, which is really where you want to live for things like this. Those "Hmm, what was that?" moments are great for tension.

 

[Britva415]

Showing awkwardness on the other person that the pov character isn't sure what to make of might be the answer to this. The readers might not know what to make of it either in the moment, but in hindsight it should make sense.

Absolutely agree. Having uncertain signals open to interpretation is the best way to handle something like that. It leaves the MC unsure, and, more importantly, it leaves the reader unsure

All of that, AND it has to also be possible to do it in a way which goes right over the MC's head but is obvious to the readers. Leaving all parties on both sides of the fourth wall confused can't be the only way this could be pulled off. Sometimes you want to strongly foreshadow, or, to lampshade the MC's cluelessness.

Even when the MC is the one doing the narrating.

I'm not saying it's easy for any old amateur to write (I'm not even saying that anyone here is any old amateur), but it's easy to imagine reading a story that was written like that and got it right.

 

[anthrodisiac]

All of that, AND it has to also be possible to do it in a way which goes right over the MC's head but is obvious to the readers. Leaving all parties on both sides of the fourth wall confused can't be the only way this could be pulled off. Sometimes you want to strongly foreshadow, or, to lampshade the MC's cluelessness.

Even when the MC is the one doing the narrating.

I'm not saying it's easy for any old amateur to write (I'm not even saying that anyone here is any old amateur), but it's easy to imagine reading a story that was written like that and got it right.

There are certainly many ways to do it. I'm just very fond of having both the MC and reader in the same headspace for first person when it comes to this level of uncertainty. It's more tense where there are stakes (like the OP saying this would be T/I, and being wrong costs you your relationship with the sibling), and it could go either way. (Background as a horror writer, so I'm very fond of uncertainty and tension).

But you're right, having a clueless MC is also valid, and it's super obvious to the reader what's happening, but the MC is clueless for whatever reason. That leans more into rom-com/comedy trope of clueless person(s) missing signals, which is great if you want to make the the reader want to grab the MC by the shoulders and scream, "Why aren't you going for it?!"

 

[Cagivagurl]

Something I struggle with a lot is when I'm writing a story from one character's POV (either close third or first) yet I know exactly what emotional progression the OTHER character is going through and at what points. The thing is, the knowledge, or even suspicion, of many of those emotional progressions would affect the focal character's OWN responses, were they to pick up on them. For instance, changing 'she's probably not even into me' into 'wow, seems like she's into me', in places where the story definitely calls for the former.

On the other hand, I still want the reader to know that it's not just one-sided until suddenly, out of the blue, she actually is into him. So somehow I need to convey emotion from the non-focal character to the reader THROUGH the perceptions of the focal character without the character themselves picking up on it. Of course, this is a near-impossible task, since the venn diagram of signs clear enough for readers and signs subtle enough for a reasonably observant character to plausibly miss looks vaguely like: O O

One thing I've done is use ambiguity in the secondary character's responses (expressions the focal character doesn't recognize, or misinterprets, or whatever) that can be recontextualized once 'the big reveal' happens, but that's not always possible to do, nor does it always convey everything I want. Also, sometimes even ambiguous responses would cause some amount of suspicion in the focal character which could change the story.

Another thing that could be done is some retroactive dialogue where the non-focal character talks about their perspective on what came before, but it feels forced and tedious unless there's a good REASON for them to be discussing it, and you obviously can't have a reason for them to go over every last detail and moment.

One other thing I've seen people do, and I now understand the temptation, is write the same story twice, from each perspective. And while I think that CAN be done well, it often won't work depending on the type of story, and it's certainly not something I would want to do with any sort of frequency.

So... thoughts? Anyone else struggle with this?

(One thing I should maybe add is that I write a lot of T/I, so often the realistic assumption IS that the other one can't possibly be into them until they suspect/begin to question/find out otherwise, but I think it's relevant to other types of stories as well.)

Sometimes you have to rely on perception...
People show emotion in many differing ways, tension can be scowling or cringing, exasperation, but also simple gestures like not being able to hold the other persons glare / stare... There are myriads of methods for depicting emotions through physicality rather than words...
Let the actions talk... Frustration... love... Bright eyes... sad eyes...
Not everything has to be spoken...
Let the reader pick up on the action... They are intelligent people (Mostly)

Simply my thoughts that let you stay in first person and still convey more than one persons thoughts...

 

[old_prof]

I'm not even saying that anyone here is any old amateur

Some of us are VERY old amateurs.

 

[Actingup]

Something I struggle with a lot is when I'm writing a story from one character's POV (either close third or first) yet I know exactly what emotional progression the OTHER character is going through and at what points. The thing is, the knowledge, or even suspicion, of many of those emotional progressions would affect the focal character's OWN responses, were they to pick up on them. For instance, changing 'she's probably not even into me' into 'wow, seems like she's into me', in places where the story definitely calls for the former.

On the other hand, I still want the reader to know that it's not just one-sided until suddenly, out of the blue, she actually is into him. So somehow I need to convey emotion from the non-focal character to the reader THROUGH the perceptions of the focal character without the character themselves picking up on it. Of course, this is a near-impossible task, since the venn diagram of signs clear enough for readers and signs subtle enough for a reasonably observant character to plausibly miss looks vaguely like: O O

One thing I've done is use ambiguity in the secondary character's responses (expressions the focal character doesn't recognize, or misinterprets, or whatever) that can be recontextualized once 'the big reveal' happens, but that's not always possible to do, nor does it always convey everything I want. Also, sometimes even ambiguous responses would cause some amount of suspicion in the focal character which could change the story.

Another thing that could be done is some retroactive dialogue where the non-focal character talks about their perspective on what came before, but it feels forced and tedious unless there's a good REASON for them to be discussing it, and you obviously can't have a reason for them to go over every last detail and moment.

One other thing I've seen people do, and I now understand the temptation, is write the same story twice, from each perspective. And while I think that CAN be done well, it often won't work depending on the type of story, and it's certainly not something I would want to do with any sort of frequency.

So... thoughts? Anyone else struggle with this?

(One thing I should maybe add is that I write a lot of T/I, so often the realistic assumption IS that the other one can't possibly be into them until they suspect/begin to question/find out otherwise, but I think it's relevant to other types of stories as well.)

Lots of great comments here. In case it’s useful, I just want to mention the value of an ensemble cast, from which the narrator (or reader) does not know who the love interest will be. This lets you capture little moments of significance on either side during a complex narrative while keeping it from a consistent point of view. It’s much easier than if you start the story with a focus on the significant other.

With apologies for the self-quote, here’s an example. At this point, Chris is a minor character, and the narrator had started the story lusting after somebody else:

It was all too much, and I was struggling to hold back tears. Pradeep in particular was really pissing me off with his constant questions. He seemed to be trying to make it a perfect holiday for his family rather than focusing on being in the choir.

Luckily, some of the others realised the stress that the Committee was under. I saw Chris lean over and whisper in Pradeep's ear, after which Pradeep thankfully shut up. Then, while I was still trying to answer a barrage of questions during the break, Chris came and put a coffee and a chocolate biscuit into my hands, and shooed the others away with a stern look.

"Angela needs a break herself, guys," he said. "Let's give her some space." And then he led me to a chair in the corner and sat with me, quietly sipping his own coffee.

 

[TheExperimentalist]

(I'm not even saying that anyone here is any old amateur)

Oh, I'm definitely an amateur. I know I have a decent amount of innate skill at storytelling and a strong intuitive grasp of grammar and sentence structure, but I'm definitely more messing with whatever feels like it fits and flows rather than actually knowing how language works. It's like being able to sing songs flawlessly without having any idea what key they're in, whether you're transposing it, or that that one high note that you love how it sounds when you hit it just right is an E. Great voice, no formal training, in both cases.

 

[TheExperimentalist]

Also, now that this thread is back, I've realized another technique that could be used, though also doesn't always work: "If I'd been looking at her right then, I would have noticed the way her eyes fell..."

This probably has fewer caveats in close third than first, since close third can slip slightly omniscient for the moment it takes to convey that, but first person would need some way that you can reasonably assume they'd have learned later about the thing they missed. Another way would be "Her eyes fell, though the significance of the expression was lost on me at the time" which is really just hanging a lampshade on the character being clueless.

Still, it's definitely a tool worth adding to the toolbox.

 

[Britva415]

I'm definitely an amateur

I'd never tell anyone "don't try!"

I've realized another technique that could be used, though also doesn't always work: "If I'd been looking at her right then, I would have noticed the way her eyes fell..."

first person would need some way that you can reasonably assume they'd have learned later about the thing they missed

"Her eyes fell, though the significance of the expression was lost on me at the time" which is really just hanging a lampshade on the character being clueless

I think if you're going to do either lampshading like this or projecting a "reasonable assumption," first of all it obviously can't work in present tense. I'm sure you get this, but there seem to be people who think present-tense is the right tense to pair with first-person.

(Pierce Brown did this a couple of times. His entire Red Rising novel series is narrated in present tense, and includes a couple of these: "I do not know it now, but Lunita...". The stories are good enough that they aren't ruined by this kind of tapdancing, but it's beyond clunky.)

Second of all: In my opinion, IF a narrator is going to foreshadow, then it shouldn't be a mere lampshade: They should later explain how/why/when/where they did become aware of the thing they weren't aware of at the time of the scene they're narrating and including the lampshading in. To skip this detail would be a flaw, one which would drive me bonkers and make me think the author was lazy or didn't think things through. The more that later realization is an integral part of the story, the better. It shouldn't be just an afterthought, and it shouldn't be left to a "reasonable assumption" that it happened off-screen. Tell the story.

As such, this just returns us to what I was asking before, about why it's so important that the narrator (A) is a first person one and (B) has to also have been unaware of the very events they come to narrate later. Why does the story require both of those things? How does the on-screen reconciliation of those two things drive the story?

 

[TheExperimentalist]

it obviously can't work in present tense

Oh yeah, for sure. Present tense is even more limiting, in that it's being told as-it-happens with zero room for retrospection or reinterpretation. I have one story in first person present, but it's a slice-of-life vignette that both starts and ends during a single sexual encounter, and is mostly focused on sensation and emotion in the moment, which is why I picked it for that story.

people who think present-tense is the right tense to pair with first-person.

That's weird. Tense and POV are completely separate.

they should later explain how/why/when/where they did become aware of the thing they weren't aware of at the time

I agree. I do this in third-person too, though. I have a longer, multi-part work that I'm trying to progress in between the shorter things I jump to when I need a break from it. The long one is in close third past, and the main character hears someone say something in chapter 1 that she then reinterprets in chapter 4 with a 'holy fuck, could that word have actually been that other word' moment that hits her hard once she has more information and reason to suspect something later on. (Though, in that case, I do try to make the homophone a bit less obvious to the reader as well.) But either way, I agree, if it's part of the story, you need to tell the story.

why it's so important that the narrator (A) is a first person one and (B) has to also have been unaware of the very events they come to narrate later. Why does the story require both of those things? How does the on-screen reconciliation of those two things drive the story?

Since the thread started with me describing having this difficulty multiple times, there's no one answer. It's different in each case where I've encountered it. In some, my answer has been "there isn't any, and it doesn't really, so let's go back and change the POV". In many others, though, there are very good reasons to need those things. It's definitely case-by-case, and as I said, I think the key is developing more tools one can use, rather than trying to find a one-size fits all. There's an old adage about only owning a hammer and every problem looking like a nail...