Creating our own categories

[SmilingLez]

Alright, so you know how we're always complaining here about how Lit's categories are too vague? That they lump together too many stories that are so different in content, length, sexiness and all that?

How about we make our own categories in separate threads? Say I start a thread called "Category: Sci-Fi & Fantasy - Sword & Sorcery", and add links to stories that fit that description. Or "Category: Exhibitionist & Voyeur - Voyeur (short)". Or "Category: Erotic Couplings - Random Encounters". Or "Category: Sci-Fi & Fantasy - Magical Realism". And everyone can add links to their own stories as well, or start their own threads for other categories they want. Maybe "Bisexual", for a start. As long as the category isn't too restrictive (I doubt there would be many links in "2P POV stream-of-consciousness cyberpunk", for instance).

A stickied thread with links to all the category threads might be useful. Perhaps even a link on Lit's homepage? And maybe this would work best in the "Looking for a Story?" forum. I'd love to get the thoughts of @Laurel, @AH_Mod and @Sammael Bard.

It wouldn't really require any effort from the site, except perhaps to raise awareness among writers and readers. It would give writers more ways to classify their stories, including in multiple categories for stories that fit R/NC, Anal and Mature, for instance. And it would be an extra tool for readers looking for things like "Anal - Romantic (long)".

Thoughts? Anything I've overlooked, like obvious reasons why this won't work?

Thank you for a hump day laugh

 

[SimonDoom]

This is getting off-topic, but agreed, that's interesting and unfortunate. The contests (on my mind because of the one ending this week) are interesting among other things because they're a sample of writers and stories that's random, or put together based on something other than my own personal interests or the AH. Despite how active this forum is and how much people talk about writing here, it's impressive how many writers out there aren't in the forum at all.

It's useful for us to remind ourselves of this. We represent just a fraction of all the authors out there, and the authors represent a fraction of all the site users. Readers, not authors, drive traffic numbers. The site has little incentive to respond to suggestions by authors in this forum unless a plausible case can be made that the suggested changes will enhance the reader experience.

 

[Writer61]

We should also remember that the extensive back catalogue of stories would still be sitting in the existing categories, so if a reader was looking for 'Taboo/Incest - Fucking a gerbil' stories, the new system would not help them.

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

Two that I think might do well.



On The Job


Erotica In Uniform.


Those stories get stuffed into whatever other category they might fit.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

The site has little incentive to respond to suggestions by authors in this forum unless a plausible case can be made that the suggested changes will enhance the reader experience.

That's pure speculation. We, all of us here, including the cultists and the chosen ones, need to admit that we know NOTHING about Laurel's mindset and process.

There has to be at least ONE case of Laurel accepting a suggestion in which we demonstrated some clear benefit for the readership for us to claim that she would be inclined to accept such a suggestion. Also, there needs to be at least ONE case of Laurel saying that our idea is perhaps interesting but that she rejects it because we failed to prove a benefit for the readership. Veterans can correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, that has never happened so far.

We know nothing about what goals move her and what her priorities are.

 

[Voboy]

I'm still shaking my head thinking of the logistics.

Suppose I come here looking for an awesome new dwarf-pegging story. Under the present system, I'd go to FETISH over on the story side and scroll the NEW stories until I find something that looks likely. Or? I'd go to the tags portal and just pick "dwarf" and "pegging." Or? I'd just go to story search, type in "dwarf pegging," and see what happens.

This proposal would make me do the following steps (remembering, always, that the Story Side and the Forum Side are two separate realms).

1. Come here to the forum.
2. Find the Dwarf Pegging Recs subthread, if it exists. If it doesn't (and it probably doesn't)? I'm back to the status quo.
3. Scroll through all the recs. I'm guessing there'd be about five of them, but let's say there are twenty. I'd need to write all those down or save them in a doc or something, unless they're linked... and if they're linked, I'd still need to maintain a separate tab and hop back and forth.
4. Head back over to the Story Side.
5. Search for the recommended story by title or writer, using the clunky search screen.
6. Repeat for each and every story I want to try out.

...why isn't it a thousand times easier just to do everything from the story side, where there are three different ways to find my kink?

 

[Five_Inch_Heels]

There has to be at least ONE case of Laurel accepting a suggestion in which we demonstrated some clear benefit for the readership for us to claim that she would be inclined to accept such a suggestion. Also, there needs to be at least ONE case of Laurel saying that our idea is perhaps interesting but that she rejects it because we failed to prove a benefit for the readership. Veterans can correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, that has never happened so far.

Splitting CD off from TS

 

[Writer61]

We know nothing about what goals move her and what her priorities are.

It seems unlikely that reader or author experience is a priority unless it contributes to site traffic.

 

[StillStunned]

I'm still shaking my head thinking of the logistics.

Suppose I come here looking for an awesome new dwarf-pegging story. Under the present system, I'd go to FETISH over on the story side and scroll the NEW stories until I find something that looks likely. Or? I'd go to the tags portal and just pick "dwarf" and "pegging." Or? I'd just go to story search, type in "dwarf pegging," and see what happens.

This proposal would make me do the following steps (remembering, always, that the Story Side and the Forum Side are two separate realms).

1. Come here to the forum.
2. Find the Dwarf Pegging Recs subthread, if it exists. If it doesn't (and it probably doesn't)? I'm back to the status quo.
3. Scroll through all the recs. I'm guessing there'd be about five of them, but let's say there are twenty. I'd need to write all those down or save them in a doc or something, unless they're linked... and if they're linked, I'd still need to maintain a separate tab and hop back and forth.
4. Head back over to the Story Side.
5. Search for the recommended story by title or writer, using the clunky search screen.
6. Repeat for each and every story I want to try out.

...why isn't it a thousand times easier just to do everything from the story side, where there are three different ways to find my kink?

I'm thinking more of the casual browser. A reader likes fantasy, but not everything in the SF&F category. If there's a list showing subcategories of "Urban Fantasy", "Sword & Sorcery" and "Romantasy", for example, they can browse those looking for stories they like. Or T/I could be broken down by "Sibcest", "Mother/Son", "Father/Daughter" and various step-relationships, or even "Non-Incest Taboo".

And obviously the stories would be linked. Like we all do in our sigs, or the "What have you posted recently?" thread, or "New story advertisements", or all the contest and challenge support threads. But that would be the writer's responsibility: if you want to add your story to a particular list, you post a link. Maybe even extra details, like a description and word count.

 

[Lifestyle66]

It won't matter what you try to do about the categories.

People have tried promoting reading lists in the past. But that means someone must update their lists and advertise those lists.

And story placement in any category and the story content are subjective. An author might think their story belongs in Loving Wives, while a large portion of those readers disagree and say it's Gay, Lesbian, Interracial, or BDSM. So, who polices the abusers or judges them as abusers?

Everyone has their personal triggers, and it just seems that many authors here are "triggered" by the existing categories.

 

[SimonDoom]

That's pure speculation. We, all of us here, including the cultists and the chosen ones, need to admit that we know NOTHING about Laurel's mindset and process.

There has to be at least ONE case of Laurel accepting a suggestion in which we demonstrated some clear benefit for the readership for us to claim that she would be inclined to accept such a suggestion. Also, there needs to be at least ONE case of Laurel saying that our idea is perhaps interesting but that she rejects it because we failed to prove a benefit for the readership. Veterans can correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, that has never happened so far.

We know nothing about what goals move her and what her priorities are.

It's not pure speculation. I'm not going to go into detail, but I've heard it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I've had intermittent message exchanges with Laurel and Manu over the last nine and a half years. I've found them to be generally courteous, respectful, and informative. I've had a few exchanges with Laurel about the categories. I don't profess to have any inside understanding or knowledge other than what I've been told, which isn't a lot, but is enough.

Have you ever had message exchanges with Laurel? I have. She has sometimes shared her mindset and intentions with me, as she has with other authors here. I'm not her buddy or confident and I don't know anything other than what she's told me, but you're in no position to tell me I know NOTHING about her mindset.

They have made some beneficial changes to this site during the time I've been here. Whether they've been in response to specific requests by authors or by commentary in the Author's Hangout, I don't know.

They do not want to increase categories. That's not speculation; it's clear. I can see arguments pro and con on that issue, but I think their position is clear.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Splitting CD off from TS

And how exactly do we know she did it because of some requests made in the AH or any other place? I don't remember ever seeing such a topic.

More than that, I hope we can all still remember the fiasco with the official explanation for the removal of explicit images in stories and here in the forum.

 

[WendyTrilby]

Categories are like genres, but as with all genres, there are subgenres, and with the incredible amount of entertainment in the world, those subgenres are needed. Case in point, the horror genre has about 75 recognizable subgenres, some of which are so far afield from the others that not knowing which subgenre you were about to view could be shocking. Imagine thinking you are about to view a psychological thriller and then being presented with body horror.

Well, that's what we need: a few subgenres. I tend to live in the EROTIC COUPLING category because it's a catch-all, but my stories are known for multiple characters and a variety of interactions, often crossing into mature, anal, lesbian, and more.

I realize the tags kind of act as subgenre indicators, but perhaps we could add subgenre tags we could use in addition to the tags. So my story about two widowed women in their 50s experiencing a romantic relationship for the first time could be categorized as follows

Genre: Lesbian. Subgenre: Mature Lesbian

Or

Genre: Mature. Subgenre: Lesbian Mature

Of course I don’t see Lit making these changes; way too much back content. But if they did, the best course would be to ask anyone who has published to submit a subgenre idea and build from there. Open-source ideas; narrow it down to a reasonable few.

For now I’ll just dwell on my story about an anal-loving lactating lesbian threesome exhibitionists who find romance after their first time having sex. Fuck it, I’ll just drop it in Erotic Coupling and call it a day.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

It's not pure speculation. I'm not going to go into detail, but I've heard it from the horse's mouth, so to speak. I've had intermittent message exchanges with Laurel and Manu over the last nine and a half years. I've found them to be generally courteous, respectful, and informative. I've had a few exchanges with Laurel about the categories. I don't profess to have any inside understanding or knowledge other than what I've been told, which isn't a lot, but is enough.

Have you ever had message exchanges with Laurel? I have. She has sometimes shared her mindset and intentions with me, as she has with other authors here. I'm not her buddy or confident and I don't know anything other than what she's told me, but you're in no position to tell me I know NOTHING about her mindset.

I did have some polite exchanges with Laurel prior to the start of the whole AI insanity. I still claim you know nothing about her mindset, and as for why, see my answer to FIH.

They have made some beneficial changes to this site during the time I've been here. Whether they've been in response to specific requests by authors or by commentary in the Author's Hangout, I don't know.

They do not want to increase categories. That's not speculation; it's clear. I can see arguments pro and con on that issue, but I think their position is clear.

I don't dispute that they have made beneficial changes on Lit. The most recent one I quite enjoy, actually. But we don't know anything about what made Laurel and Manu implement those changes. As always, and as Laurel herself clearly stated, we are all heavily speculating.

 

[DTales]

Not for nothing, I wouldn't mind a special futa category. I am glad that Crossdressers and Transgender got their own separate category, but futa doesn't quite fit into either. But I almost exclusively put my work in Humor and Satire anyway, so it doesn't matter either way.

 

[Voboy]

I still claim you know nothing about her mindset, and as for why, see my answer to FIH.

... how could you POSSIBLY know?

Not for nothing, but telling someone you know their experiences better than they know their own experiences is simply not a good way to convince people you're being reasonable.

 

[PennyThompson]

Personally I like this idea! Some people seem to be hung up on the word "category," but these could just as easily be called "Curated Genre Reading Lists" or something.

I would love to have a centralized curated list of Pansexual Romance stories, or Cryptids-That-Arent-Just-Bigfoot

Put them in the Looking For A Story subforum, maybe, and if it gets traction perhaps a dedicated sub forum could be made for it?

 

[StillStunned]

I'm not sure why people are arguing about "Lit will never implement this" and so on. We writers create subcategory threads on the forum, and advertise our stories in them. If you don't see an existing thread for your particular subcategory, you create a new one. If it's too obscure, it won't get any traffic, so it's pretty self-policing. I think we're all intelligent enough to know more or less what qualifies as a separate subcategory, and what's a niche within a subcategory.

All that would be required from Laurel (and/or the relevant forum mod) would be to sticky a thread where we can link all the separate subcategory threads, and preferably an announcement on the homepage. Without the site's endorsement, obviously this idea isn't going anywhere, and if it means less traffic then I'd expect it to be shot down.

But it might be a worthwhile experiment, and if it's successful maybe the stickied thread could become a permanent page on the story side where the subcategories are listed alphabetically or something.

I'd love to hear from @Laurel whether we have her blessing to at least try it.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

... how could you POSSIBLY know?

Not for nothing, but telling someone you know their experiences better than they know their own experiences is simply not a good way to convince people you're being reasonable.

So wait, you have a problem with me claiming that he, along with the rest of us, doesn't know anything about her mindset, because I am supposed to prove that, but you are okay with him claiming that he does know her mindset, yet he doesn't need to prove that?

 

[Writer61]

I'd love to hear from @Laurel whether we have her blessing to at least try it.

You don't need her blessing. AH_Mod can probably make a thread sticky. Start one and see what happens.

 

[Voboy]

So wait, you have a problem with me claiming that he, along with the rest of us, doesn't know anything about her mindset, because I am supposed to prove that, but you are okay with him claiming that he does know her mindset, yet he doesn't need to prove that?

I've had experiences very similar to the ones that @SimonDoom has had. Not identical, but similar; Laurel is not the inscrutable oracle you seem to see her as, if she's approached by reasonable, respectful people who have useful things to suggest. Simon's post has the ring of truth about it, to me.

So yes. I'm okay with Simon's claims. I think there are many people who have credible insight into Laurel's ways of thinking about many subjects. Most have been here longer than you, which isn't a flex; it's a partial explanation for why they're not bothering to post their experiences here.

You see, they've seen it alllllllll before.

 

[StillStunned]

You don't need her blessing. AH_Mod can probably make a thread sticky. Start one and see what happens.

Like I said, the idea's success stands or falls with the site's endorsement. As has been pointed out, most readers don't frequent the forums, so the list would need to be advertised story-side, and that's Laurel's decision.

And before she makes that decision, I'm sure she'll want to consider the implications for site traffic. So I'm happy waiting to see what she thinks. We're guests in her playground, after all, and it's only polite to ask.

 

[Britva415]

it will probably take a while for readers to get used to it

Readers have had >20 years to get used to titles, descriptions, categories, tags and fore-words, and they still land on shit they would never voluntarily read - to hear them tell it, anyway.

That was a little tongue in cheek and off topic, but in all seriousness, I don't see more than 1% of readers ever using such a collection of forum posts.

 

[Writer61]

And before she makes that decision, I'm sure she'll want to consider the implications for site traffic.

So, demonstrate how a thread like that, even with a limited audience, can encourage readership.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I've had experiences very similar to the ones that @SimonDoom has had. Not identical, but similar; Laurel is not the inscrutable oracle you seem to see her as, if she's approached by reasonable, respectful people who have useful things to suggest. Simon's post has the ring of truth about it, to me.

So yes. I'm okay with Simon's claims. I think there are many people who have credible insight into Laurel's ways of thinking about many subjects. Most have been here longer than you, which isn't a flex; it's a partial explanation for why they're not bothering to post their experiences here.

You see, they've seen it alllllllll before.

I am certainly impressed with the fact that you feel you can know one's mindset via a dozen or so PMs, especially after we all saw the proof that they can be, shall we say, less than truthful about certain things, and that they can outright claim that the thing we all know exists doesn't exist.

But anyway, please, if you do feel you know her mind, let the rest of us know as well. It would help with understanding this place better, not to mention that it would be a field day for the younger generation of apologists.